On June 20 2009 05:53 Heaven_n wrote:
can someone do a sort of list of the actual BO no explaining is really needed im trying to edit liquipedia somthing like

12hatch
11Pool
13hatch(to new expo)
12gas
12make zerlings fo early zlots
etc etc plz =) i would do it but im really unfamiliar with the 5hatch actual BO

There is no set build order. It can be executed from 12hatch or overpool or 9pool. It's rather open to interpretation besides the basis of 3hatch lair, spire, and five hatcheries.

FlayedOne

Poland47 Posts

July 05 2009 09:06 GMT

#165

Is there a reason for building only 5 hatcheries when you can support ~7 hatcheries producing hydralisks with 3 saturated bases?

DBunny

Canada192 Posts

July 05 2009 10:25 GMT

#166

There's no reason why you can't build 2 more hatcheries if you find yourself in a position where they will be useful, but it's going to be difficult to fully saturate all 3 bases unless you are were completely unharrased. Yes, if you delay the point where you actually start massing hydras it will be possible to fully saturate all your bases but I find that the window of opportunity where only mass hydras is useful is not that long.

FlayedOne

Poland47 Posts

July 05 2009 11:21 GMT

#167

You mean it's 5 hatches only, because you're saving resources for mutas?

pN]Reaper[

Romania7 Posts

July 05 2009 11:56 GMT

#168

w3jjj, if and when you have time, can you make a guide on how to play this build the other way around? 3-4 hatch muta -> 5 hatch hydra mass?

As in , muta first? Like JaeDong plays it sometimes?

Superiorwolf

United States5509 Posts

July 05 2009 14:17 GMT

#169

If you go 7 hatch hydra it will be impossible to go mutas / tech / get lurkers later, which you'll all need.

w3jjjj

United States760 Posts

July 06 2009 00:32 GMT

#170

Finally revised as promised...this draft has sat in my folder for over two month now, and I finally got back to finishing it. Enjoy.

Regarding requests for a muta opening guide, I'll see what I can do, no promises.

Strayline

United States330 Posts

July 06 2009 01:10 GMT

#171

Nice additions

I especially find the recomendation on what to do if the protoss goes "true bisu style" helpful as that a problem I wasn't really aware of.

ph7

United States72 Posts

July 16 2009 06:27 GMT

#172

I read the guide, but i don't remember seeing any discussion/mention about why you would get spire first instead of getting a den when lair is 50%, and then placing spire as soon as lair is finished.

My reasoning and logic for den first is that you could potentially get faster hydras and attack earlier because of the earlier upgrades of speed and range to hydras, as well as a chance to end the game even before you needed mutas.
But... I am not sure because i don't know if there would be enough gas to support the earlier den and upgrades.
IDK why but i can't seem to figure out the reason behind spire first.

Revabug

United Kingdom147 Posts

July 16 2009 07:27 GMT

#173

Isn't making the 3rd hatchery at 13 at a third base risky?

Even on Destination with an overpool you'll start it before confirming they fast expand - and vs a 2 gate Zealot rush it could get pretty messy..

w3jjjj

United States760 Posts

July 16 2009 07:52 GMT

#174

On July 16 2009 15:27 ph7 wrote:
I read the guide, but i don't remember seeing any discussion/mention about why you would get spire first instead of getting a den when lair is 50%, and then placing spire as soon as lair is finished.

My reasoning and logic for den first is that you could potentially get faster hydras and attack earlier because of the earlier upgrades of speed and range to hydras, as well as a chance to end the game even before you needed mutas.
But... I am not sure because i don't know if there would be enough gas to support the earlier den and upgrades.
IDK why but i can't seem to figure out the reason behind spire first.

Every build order is designed to carry out its underlying strategy. The 5 hatch hydra build isn't designed for early aggression, it is a flexible build capable of adapting to any P strategies after FE. The 5 hatch hydra seeks to gain a decent amount of everything: safety, econ, tech, upgrades, etc...what you get is a smooth transition into the mid game, where you can comfortably pump hydras off of 5 hatch.

The build order itself is designed to reach this 5 hatch production speed. To support this production speed, you need enough drones and 5 hatcheries. The faster you accumulate these drones and hatcheries, the faster you can go into full hydra production, and the more hydras you can produce. In fantasy land, where there are no enemies, the fastest way to accumulate drones and hatcheries is just making pure drones and hatcheries... But with your enemy on the map, you must spend resources to defend against various threats. The more resources you spend on defense, the less resources you will have for drones and hatcheries. Using ling/scourge for early defense is the backbone of today's ZvP theory, for it is the most cost effective combo to defend against zealots and corsairs. This allows you to spend more resources on drones and hatcheries early on, which helps you to achieve your 5 hatch production speed faster, which translates to more hydras...

For defensive purposes, there is no need to make earlier den/hydra/upgrades, because ling/scourge is cheaper and more effective. Making earlier den/hydra/upgrades takes more resources away from your drones and hatcheries, which slows you down from reaching the 5 hatch production speed. In short, making faster den/hydra/upgrades in this build is actually counter productive, as it goes against your strategic goal.

If you want earlier hydras for offensive purposes, you can try more aggressive builds like 2 hatch hydra, 3 hatch hydra, 4 hatch hydra, or 5 hatch (before gas) hydra builds.

Grobyc

Canada18410 Posts

July 16 2009 07:58 GMT

#175

Thanks for the revision w3jjjj, I re-read it and I think I understand the play a lot more now.

DarkSaieden

South Africa254 Posts

August 07 2009 06:20 GMT

#176

would it work to make one muta and 2 scourge instead of 4? the muta will last longer and might make the p morph more archons

KameZerg

Sweden1772 Posts

May 15 2011 18:17 GMT

#177

Theres been a slight modifciation to this, Where they pop mutas before and then op for a mass hydra army. Does anyone have the BO for this? I cant seem to get the hang of it whenever i try doing so.

For example:

shinjin

United States398 Posts

May 16 2011 00:48 GMT

#178

On May 16 2011 03:17 ICanFlyLow wrote:
Theres been a slight modifciation to this, Where they pop mutas before and then op for a mass hydra army. Does anyone have the BO for this? I cant seem to get the hang of it whenever i try doing so.

For example:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5xRfT2PmXaY&feature=channel_video_title

Its actually not a slight modification at all, and I've written a post about this awhile ago, Harem promised to help out with more details of the build, but he hasn't responded yet. I'd imagine he is the most knowledgeable person about this currently.

In general though, this build is centered around getting a quick 4th while contesting the protoss for air superiority. A really tough build to pull off correctly and you can lose to a lot of stupid things. Its not like 3 hat spire to 5 hat hydra where you use mass amounts of hydra to control the map and mutas to snipe. Its more like mass muta scourge taking control of the air trying to delay the toss third for as long as possible while getting your fourth up. Then transition into hydra/ turtle with lurkers until hive tech, then ulta ling defiler ftw. This, at least, is as much as i know about htis build and it would be great if someone could make a detailed fpvod of some sort.

JMave

Singapore1806 Posts

May 16 2011 05:38 GMT

#179

The most odd thing to me is the lack of a second gas even after spire is done. It seems as if the army composition consists mostly of lings at the start to handle zealot movement and to defend zealot attacks with sunkens and lings.

It appears that hydra den and evo chamber is delayed very significantly. My guess is that there is no rush in obtaining a mass number of mutas since it is expected that at that point in time, corsair would already be near critical mass and building up drone count and defence would be much better in the long run.

I do compare the mechanical demands of this build to be slightly higher than corsair-reaver because of the kind of control you will need. Since your muta scourge will be the only form of anti-air at that point, losing an air battle will be as good as a loss since he will now have free reign to kill off your overlords, which are without speed.

On further analysis, I think that the mutas come in after you plant down your 4th base hatch. Which is why I think balancing the larvae between drones and other stuff is quite important. The main aim will be to get lurkers asap, as it will help defence a whole lot more.

Hope my input was useful and correct ^^

WeRRa

378 Posts

May 16 2011 20:45 GMT

#180

imo muta build vs toss are very bad, since all toss tend to go mass sair, mutas are good to harrass, but no good fighting unit.
so better get earlier lurkers and go up for lair tech and try to break him with cracklings and ultras/defilers.
mutas dont come really suprising for any d+ toss and higher, since u just need to see the second gas timing, u will know mutas are coming and if the toss knows this, he ill have 2 canons in the main an archon and at least like 4 sairs already, mutas wont do any dmg and the game is pretty much over.

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