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On April 15 2009 11:48 Grobyc wrote:Show nested quote +On April 15 2009 11:46 Cloud wrote:
This isnt meant to be used against +1 speedzeals. If hes not making any corsairs, the spire is useless if you dont open mutas.
So either skip the spire for the time being or open mutas. If you scout it how do you change your regular plan? Do you not lay down a 4th and 5th hatchery right away? Do you still aim for hydras in the end?
His cytadel (or stargate) should start before your spire does. So there is no real plan as of now, you can get a second gas right after you scout it, get spire, delay your 4th a bit and go muta, instead of the 5th hatchery you will make sunkens. Or instead of a spire get 4th hatch and then den for 4 hatch hydra with a couple sunkens.
Or you can scout his forge spinning sooner than that and get a den for 3 hatch lurker, then make 2 hatcheries, get 2nd gas, evolution chamber and ovie speed. Or for a more passive zerg delay those 2 hatcheries, take your 2nd gas asap and evolution chamber for carapace to start right after lurker aspect.
Whatever floats your boat.
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Revision made, added 2 reps vs computer as bo demos, also added more sub sections under hydra play. The wording is pretty bad so I'll rephrase a lot of things tomorrow, too tired now.
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On April 16 2009 17:02 w3jjjj wrote:
Revision made, added 2 reps vs computer as bo demos, also added more sub sections under hydra play. The wording is pretty bad so I'll rephrase a lot of things tomorrow, too tired now.
<3
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On April 16 2009 17:02 w3jjjj wrote:
Revision made, added 2 reps vs computer as bo demos, also added more sub sections under hydra play. The wording is pretty bad so I'll rephrase a lot of things tomorrow, too tired now.
The replays mess up for me on 1.16.1, do I need to watch them with a different version?
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On April 17 2009 22:30 Lingepumpe wrote:Show nested quote +On April 16 2009 17:02 w3jjjj wrote:
Revision made, added 2 reps vs computer as bo demos, also added more sub sections under hydra play. The wording is pretty bad so I'll rephrase a lot of things tomorrow, too tired now. The replays mess up for me on 1.16.1, do I need to watch them with a different version?
The ones vs computer were played like 2 days ago, 1.16.1 should be fine, the game vs cruzado may have been an earlier version but it is very recent
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On April 17 2009 23:39 w3jjjj wrote:Show nested quote +On April 17 2009 22:30 Lingepumpe wrote:On April 16 2009 17:02 w3jjjj wrote:
Revision made, added 2 reps vs computer as bo demos, also added more sub sections under hydra play. The wording is pretty bad so I'll rephrase a lot of things tomorrow, too tired now. The replays mess up for me on 1.16.1, do I need to watch them with a different version? The ones vs computer were played like 2 days ago, 1.16.1 should be fine, the game vs cruzado may have been an earlier version but it is very recent
They only mess up when you watch them in multiplayer. They work if you watch them in single player, probably because they were recorded in singleplayer.
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i dont know if this has been asked but if you follow the build up to the making hydras part is skipping out on mutalisks(for the time being) and instead transitioning into heavy drop play viable with this opening?
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On April 18 2009 00:54 arb wrote:
i dont know if this has been asked but if you follow the build up to the making hydras part is skipping out on mutalisks(for the time being) and instead transitioning into heavy drop play viable with this opening?
Yes, if you want to do that I would forget about mutas and just make lurkers instead, better for drops.
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Someone upload a cool rep on the matter plz. If you can of you r own vs a skilled player. I would like to see when i must make the changes...
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This game vs Cruzado ... would u win if he didnt destroy his eco with making 3 canons early + drawing probes out ?
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On April 19 2009 01:12 Zerg_Sasuke wrote:
This game vs Cruzado ... would u win if he didnt destroy his eco with making 3 canons early + drawing probes out ?
Who knows, it would have been a more even game. Since ZvP is not my best match up, and P is ranked higher, i would say he had better chances in general.
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Hi,
I have a question: How can I scout his build, if the protoss builds a goon right after his core to kill my scouting ovi in his main ? Then I can't see if he is adding gateways / building sairs until I have my pair of scourge (assuming he hides his tech from my ovi). The problem is that a +1 zeal push could easily catch me off guard...And I won't have the gas for muta, cuz I'm adding the 2nd gas so late (around spire finish).. Could I assume something by his 2nd gas timing ? I know if he upgrades +1 fairly early, there is a strong possibility he might go +1speedzeal push, but it's no garantuee either..
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On April 19 2009 23:06 geenobu wrote:
Hi,
I have a question: How can I scout his build, if the protoss builds a goon right after his core to kill my scouting ovi in his main ? Then I can't see if he is adding gateways / building sairs until I have my pair of scourge (assuming he hides his tech from my ovi). The problem is that a +1 zeal push could easily catch me off guard...And I won't have the gas for muta, cuz I'm adding the 2nd gas so late (around spire finish).. Could I assume something by his 2nd gas timing ? I know if he upgrades +1 fairly early, there is a strong possibility he might go +1speedzeal push, but it's no garantuee either..
I try to scout with my lings. Just run them near the forge and maby take 1 or 2 cannon hits. If it is spinning you can do w\e u do to counter 
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The question is if I should assume that he's +1speedzeal pushing, when the +1 is early. For example in the game vs cruzado, he is upgrading +1 with his first gas...Let's say the p was hiding a pylon from the overlord and he would've built the stargate there...If now a goon comes and chases my ovi away/kills it, I don't know what he's doing basically. Should I suicide another ovi in order to see the earlier gates or sth ?
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On April 19 2009 23:21 geenobu wrote:
The question is if I should assume that he's +1speedzeal pushing, when the +1 is early. For example in the game vs cruzado, he is upgrading +1 with his first gas...Let's say the p was hiding a pylon from the overlord and he would've built the stargate there...If now a goon comes and chases my ovi away/kills it, I don't know what he's doing basically. Should I suicide another ovi in order to see the earlier gates or sth ?
His stargate or citidel will start as soon as his core is done so start sending your OL out of his base as soon as his core finishes (if he built his core at his nat and you don't see it then it should finish maybe 5-10 seconds before your lair so go by that timing). Once your OL is out of their base most P's will just cancel it the goon so you can send it back in around the time your spire is halfway done to see his tech. If at this point you see 3 gates then even if you only have like 400 gas just put down your second gas, get like 5 mutas, and just focus your defense more on sunkens and lings. If he builds the goon anyways and just has it waiting at the side of his main thats kind of wierd but you can still usually suicide the OL unless its waiting at the exact spot you planned to send it in. In that case just wait for your spire to finish and do the above low-gas muta thing. If his sair hasn't reached your base by the time your spire is done then he didn't go stargate.
Also, if he hides a pylon and puts a stargate there then that means he is not going to commit to corsairs. If he does do this then every corsair past the second will be in high danger of just getting picked off by scourge as soon as it finishes. P build their stargate at their nexus because they need cannons there to defend vs mutas and so it doubles as defense against scourge and mutas for when their sairs pop. So if they are hiding their stargate like that you are free to go mutas anyways because you aren't in danger of having to play against a corsair heavy build. He might put it at his nat but if you don't have a very good diea of what he is doing just throw 2-3 speedlings into his nat. If he has a robo bay there then he is obviously going sair reaver. If he didn't put his tech at his main he prolly put the stargate or the citidel here so you can find that too. And you can also look at his second gas timing but you should always do that with the overlord near his nat. Either way mutas are fine vs anything other than like heavy sair+fast archon builds so if you can't find a stargate near either his main or nat you should be fine. The next hardest strat against it would be the 2 archon 4 gate push thing but I'm pretty sure that doesn't get +1 as early as a speedlot rush.
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thanks for the reply, it was helpful 
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I know this has been discussed a litle beforfe, but I have not found a good answer to it.
What to do on maps without a gas on the 3 base? For exampel, on Medusa, Blue or Andromeda(not familliar with Andro). You expand to you min-only and then you dont get that fast 3 gas. I have solved this problem with expanding to one of the single gas expansions on Medusa. But lets say I expand to my min-only base. Then I wont have enough gas to make mutas. So what should I do then. How can I deal with his army before my lurker uppgrade is finnished?
Or if he makes a lot of corsairs and ground army. I have not encounterd this almost at all, but then the mutas would be owned. Should I still get them and just micro better, or since he makes so many sairs he wont have enough templars to deal with my hydras?
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On April 25 2009 07:33 Neivler wrote:
I know this has been discussed a litle beforfe, but I have not found a good answer to it.
What to do on maps without a gas on the 3 base? For exampel, on Medusa, Blue or Andromeda(not familliar with Andro). You expand to you min-only and then you dont get that fast 3 gas. I have solved this problem with expanding to one of the single gas expansions on Medusa. But lets say I expand to my min-only base. Then I wont have enough gas to make mutas. So what should I do then. How can I deal with his army before my lurker uppgrade is finnished?
While this is a flexible build, it is not the ultimate counter to everything. Maps with 3 easy gas favor this build, while maps with 2 gas favor other builds. You can still play the same style, but it will be more difficult. With 2 gas you will have more minerals which should be used to expand faster to gas expos. The real problem is that without early 3rd gas, it takes longer to finish making mutas, so it takes longer before you can resume hydra production, which weakens your army. On the other hand, the extra minerals can very well go to drones and hatcheries, which gives you a better economy. So perhaps you can play a more defensive style, and since most P on medusa go for a fast third expo, you can probably get away with less hydras early on. Play to your advantage, if you have more gas use gas, more minerals then try to use the minerals.
Or if he makes a lot of corsairs and ground army. I have not encounterd this almost at all, but then the mutas would be owned. Should I still get them and just micro better, or since he makes so many sairs he wont have enough templars to deal with my hydras?
It clearly states in the guide that this build is not intended to face mass corsair builds, so this question is really not applicable. You can get air armor +1 if you see mass corsairs, that will help your scourge and keep your ovies safer. A mid game muta switch is possible if you scourged enough corsairs or if you finished +1 air carapace and you are confident with muta/scourge. But the transition will come much later than in the hydra/muta build, which defeats the timing purpose of the build. The late muta transition should be considered another strategy, not a variation of this build.
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3 bases with 2 gas is very fine, as the P need gas aswell. You don't really need ur 3rd gas anyway to make mass mutas in 1 time as you can skip hydras for glings unless he does +1 atk upg which you should better be careful.
Remember, scouting is the key. And zerg have a LOT of way to scout. It's really hard for P to hide something and if he does so he's taking a lot of risks.
When your 3rd base doesn't have gas then you can put another hatch in another base as the mineral will go up really fast.
Edit : And even if you need gas you can always make ur 2nd gas is little sooner. Seriously it's not a big deal
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Really gr8 for a noob like me. Tho the replays doesn't work i get "Can not load senario" error does that mean that i need to get the map or someting?
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EPT
