EPTOn April 02 2009 04:23 Wayneman wrote:
It would be awesome if you could do a guide about one of those in the future
It would be awesome if you could do a guide about one of those in the future
Yeah man.
! [G] ZvP 5 hatch hydra -> muta build - Page 6
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Zerg_Sasuke
176 Posts
Yeah man. | ||
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Crunchums
United States11144 Posts
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Saracen
United States5139 Posts
On April 08 2009 12:10 Crunchums wrote: Question: what maps is this a good/bad build on? good on maps with an accessible 3rd gas (like desti) bad on maps with a hard 3rd gas (like longinus) | ||
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Typho0n
Canada276 Posts
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skronch
United States2717 Posts
would it be safe to say that if my muta control is not very good, that i should start off practicing 3hat muta builds until i'm comfortable with it before using a build like this? | ||
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w3jjjj
United States760 Posts
On April 08 2009 14:09 skronch wrote: would it be safe to say that if my muta control is not very good, that i should start off practicing 3hat muta builds until i'm comfortable with it before using a build like this? The only muta micro you need is to snipe templars, which isn't very hard in the open. You don't need to bother with cannons with your mutas so the micro isn't that demanding. The emphasis of this build is on Mass hydra, you need mostly good macro and 2a3a4a5a (I keep my mutas on 1). The only muta micro needed is to try not to run mutas into archons when you are sniping, and also keep the mutas moving when you snipe, so you can run away from storms without slowing down, that's pretty much it. | ||
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Geo.Rion
7377 Posts
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Lightswarm
Canada967 Posts
*I prefer overpool because it forces the toss to get a few cannons but 12 hatch is fine* overpool 11 hatch 4 lings 15 hatch (expo or at nat) 14 gas drone till 18 (ovie at 17) lair with first 100 gas speed 2nd gas when lair finishes 4th hatch just b4 35 food make until there are 8-10 lings den when spire is 50% 5th hatch 4 scourges lurker upgrade then the hydra ups basically this build is intended to to directly into lurker/hydra/ling so that the zerg can get more control of the map. since the toss will not get obs out as fast, the temps must storm the lurkers and not the hydras. when the lurkers are stormed, surround with hydra/ling to kill off the toss. Theoritically, this build is more versatile because of the earlier lurker upgrades, thus switching from lurker/hydra to hydra/ling to muta hydra very easy, and it also allows a faster hive tech for the defilers/ultras. Obviously im a noob so idk if this works well in the higher ranks, say c to c+. but i have been using this build for a few days and have had way more success with this build than the 5 hatch hydra/scourge build. any feedback is appreciated. thx | ||
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Neon_Monkey
United States270 Posts
On April 10 2009 10:39 Lightswarm wrote: I read ur 5 hatch hydra strategy and have practiced using it alot. one problem i noticed when i play against good players is that i am unable to control my mutas well enough to kill all the templars (although toss these days get goons out much faster). after getting rolled and rolled over game after game, i was not sure if i did the build correctly (probably my mechanics were not good enough). recently, i devised a variation to the 5 hatch hydra. the BO goes something like this. *I prefer overpool because it forces the toss to get a few cannons but 12 hatch is fine* overpool 11 hatch 4 lings 15 hatch (expo or at nat) 14 gas drone till 18 (ovie at 17) lair with first 100 gas speed 2nd gas when lair finishes 4th hatch just b4 35 food make until there are 8-10 lings den when spire is 50% 5th hatch 4 scourges lurker upgrade then the hydra ups basically this build is intended to to directly into lurker/hydra/ling so that the zerg can get more control of the map. since the toss will not get obs out as fast, the temps must storm the lurkers and not the hydras. when the lurkers are stormed, surround with hydra/ling to kill off the toss. Theoritically, this build is more versatile because of the earlier lurker upgrades, thus switching from lurker/hydra to hydra/ling to muta hydra very easy, and it also allows a faster hive tech for the defilers/ultras. Obviously im a noob so idk if this works well in the higher ranks, say c to c+. but i have been using this build for a few days and have had way more success with this build than the 5 hatch hydra/scourge build. any feedback is appreciated. thx That was generally the build that zergs used for the year before 5 hatch hydra became popular (at least in the proscene; I think the foreign scene was consumed by the 4 hatch +1 carapace build at the time). There was never really a standardized build order for it because how quickly you need lurker tech is dependent completely on what the P does. And usually if you do this you just stick with lurkling and get carapace/melee dual up after the lurks are out rather than hydra speed or range followed by hive when both ups are about half done, but it can really be played any way. At the moment it seems to be considered a weaker build but it still works fine, especially on maps without a 3rd easy gas because generally with this build you can place your 4th or hatch hatch safely at a 4th base, and even if you don't its fine as lurkling can survive on 2 gas until hive is done. | ||
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FortuneSyn
1826 Posts
What is the point/advantage of getting 3 hatch spire first for this build? The only advantages i see is dealing with sairs using scourge and threatening the toss with a muta build, however a good toss can tell if ur saving larvae or not for it. The way I've been playing hydra-->muta is getting first 100gas on attack upgrade, then next 100gas on lair, and get the den hydra upgrades according to the timing of your hydras, and get spire according to the timing of your mutas. It'll get me lair quick enough to have OL speed when i need it, and it'll give me mutas when i need it, and my upgrades will be stronger in midgame. | ||
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w3jjjj
United States760 Posts
On April 13 2009 03:28 FortuneSyn wrote: Thanks for your effort on this guide. What is the point/advantage of getting 3 hatch spire first for this build? The only advantages i see is dealing with sairs using scourge and threatening the toss with a muta build, however a good toss can tell if ur saving larvae or not for it. The way I've been playing hydra-->muta is getting first 100gas on attack upgrade, then next 100gas on lair, and get the den hydra upgrades according to the timing of your hydras, and get spire according to the timing of your mutas. It'll get me lair quick enough to have OL speed when i need it, and it'll give me mutas when i need it, and my upgrades will be stronger in midgame. It takes 28 drones on minerals and 6 on gas to pump 5 hatch hydra. The build order is designed to get this drone saturation in the fastest way possible, and matching the saturation with the completion of 5 hatcheries. Getting the fast spire to deal with the corsairs is critical as it spares you from making earlier hydras, therefore u can make more drones and get to you saturation point faster, which eventually translates into more hydras faster. Furthermore, the spire timing is aimed to control the corsair count. Vs a P who stops after 1 scouting sair that may not seem much, but vs a mass corsair build you can delay the P from doing any damage before his corsair number builds up, and that is another critical window for you to get more drones and infrastructures to reach a different drone saturation point. A delayed spire would give P free reign in this window, and you will once again be forced to make early hydras to defend, and that makes your drones late and you cannot fully pump hydras for much longer. | ||
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Oystein
Norway1602 Posts
On April 13 2009 03:28 FortuneSyn wrote: Thanks for your effort on this guide. What is the point/advantage of getting 3 hatch spire first for this build? The only advantages i see is dealing with sairs using scourge and threatening the toss with a muta build, however a good toss can tell if ur saving larvae or not for it. The way I've been playing hydra-->muta is getting first 100gas on attack upgrade, then next 100gas on lair, and get the den hydra upgrades according to the timing of your hydras, and get spire according to the timing of your mutas. It'll get me lair quick enough to have OL speed when i need it, and it'll give me mutas when i need it, and my upgrades will be stronger in midgame. The advantage of this build is that it removes all the threats the P can pose against your very early when he FE`s. The lingspeed gives you total safety from any zeal harass since you can start making lings once you see him move out from his base, and they will finish in time as his zeals arrive at your base. This totally neglects any zeal harass and if he chose to move out to towards you he will only end up losing his lots since its easy to surround and kill them with speed, hence a lot of Ps don`t send out their lots at all and that leaves you to mass even more drones faster. Also you deny any scouting once speed finishes + you always have the option of doing a mass ling break if you see a hole in his defense, and the P have to take in to account the fact that you CAN make a lingbreak even if you don`t in most cases making him focus more on not having holes in his early defenses. As for the spire, like with the speedling you effectively shuts down any harass of your overlords for a long time (until he gets like 6 sairs if he keeps on massing them, and then you will have lots of hydras anyway) + it gives you instant scouting of what the P is doing and lets you adjust accordingly (for example if you see him going sair\reaver you can make a few more drones than usual and starting burrow), and the more subtle fact that once again you gives the P the threat of mutas. In general this build is just a highly versatile and well thought out build that aims to bring you into the midgame in most cases with a strong economy with good drone saturation, 5hatches and with several tech choices available for you. However the real strength of this build is that it can adapt to anything so well, unlike say a 3hatch muta build you can easily change this build as you go along to make it suit any given situation. Say you see his skipping stargate, you can easily forgo placing down more hatches and instead put down a second gas and turn into a mutabuild, or say hes going for a quick mass lot strat you could also changed it up and get the lurker upgrade asap to stop it easily. Its simply works well vs anything the P do nowadays, and while its not very strong vs any builds, its not weak vs anything either and aims to bring you into the midgame without any disadvantages. | ||
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Neivler
Norway911 Posts
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w3jjjj
United States760 Posts
On April 13 2009 06:20 Neivler wrote: I cant find ur replays where u just show the bo vs a comp with cheats on. Where are they? Not posted yet... I've been lazy...sorry | ||
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guitarizt
United States1492 Posts
Plz post. | ||
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Lingepumpe
Germany15 Posts
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Grobyc
Canada18410 Posts
EDIT: + Show Spoiler [There is this] + On March 10 2009 14:09 w3jjjj wrote: Forge spinning early does not always mean a no stargate speedlot rush. There is a strange and not so common mass corsair/+1 speedlot timing attack build that works great against muta openinngs. Best signs to judge P builds is based on gateway timing, after core finish if you see 2 gates going down quickly when you expect the stargate, that hints speedlot rush regardless of whether forge is spinning, hell he might have just forgot, but you never want to be caught off guard by a speedlot attack right when you start hydras. If indeed you confirm a no stargate speedlot build with fast templar archive, then yes get gas sooner, make your 4th hatch and go mutas earlier, make extra sunkens with the money you normally have for the 5th hatch. Lings aren't great vs +1 speedlots, but if you think your sunkens might not hold, make lings will aid your defense. On your second question, if you have complete map control, see if you can pick off templars at his nat, your hydra blob can walk through anything without storm threats. If his templars are protected by cannons, I wouldn't force it. Losing mutas is the same as losing map control cuz you can no longer control his templar count. But how drastically does that change your plan for the rest of the game(up until ~110 supply when you take your 4th)? If you make muta's earlier does that mean you make them before hydras instead then? By the time those mutas come out his attack will already be over right? Assuming you survived you just go do regular stacked muta harass until you mass hydras? Does this change the timing of your 4th at all? | ||
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Cloud
Sexico5880 Posts
So either skip the spire for the time being or open mutas. | ||
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Grobyc
Canada18410 Posts
On April 15 2009 11:46 Cloud wrote: This isnt meant to be used against +1 speedzeals. If hes not making any corsairs, the spire is useless if you dont open mutas. So either skip the spire for the time being or open mutas. If you scout it how do you change your regular plan? Do you not lay down a 4th and 5th hatchery right away? Do you still aim for hydras in the end? | ||
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w3jjjj
United States760 Posts
On April 15 2009 11:43 Grobyc wrote: I tried to look for a good answer, but how does this do vs the +1 speedzeal rush? I assume you need more than your standard 12 speedlings + a sunken vs ~10-11 zealots, so do you need to make extra sunkens then? How many? If you build your 3rd, 4th, or 5th hatchery at your 3rd then don't you need sunkens there as well? Since you build your spire first then wait for it to finish before starting your hydra den what do you have to protect you until you have 1-4 hotkeys of hydras + lings? Maybe I'm missing something key here, but doesn't the +1 speedzealot rush come before your econ effectively kicks in? EDIT: + Show Spoiler [There is this] + On March 10 2009 14:09 w3jjjj wrote: Forge spinning early does not always mean a no stargate speedlot rush. There is a strange and not so common mass corsair/+1 speedlot timing attack build that works great against muta openinngs. Best signs to judge P builds is based on gateway timing, after core finish if you see 2 gates going down quickly when you expect the stargate, that hints speedlot rush regardless of whether forge is spinning, hell he might have just forgot, but you never want to be caught off guard by a speedlot attack right when you start hydras. If indeed you confirm a no stargate speedlot build with fast templar archive, then yes get gas sooner, make your 4th hatch and go mutas earlier, make extra sunkens with the money you normally have for the 5th hatch. Lings aren't great vs +1 speedlots, but if you think your sunkens might not hold, make lings will aid your defense. On your second question, if you have complete map control, see if you can pick off templars at his nat, your hydra blob can walk through anything without storm threats. If his templars are protected by cannons, I wouldn't force it. Losing mutas is the same as losing map control cuz you can no longer control his templar count. But how drastically does that change your plan for the rest of the game(up until ~110 supply when you take your 4th)? If you make muta's earlier does that mean you make them before hydras instead then? By the time those mutas come out his attack will already be over right? Assuming you survived you just go do regular stacked muta harass until you mass hydras? Does this change the timing of your 4th at all? If no stargate you will go mutas first, 4 hatch is typical, even 3 hatch is fine if P is doing a particularly strong version of the +1 attack. The build branches off so early it is obviously no longer the 5 hatch hydra build, so non of the stuff in this guide would even apply in that situation. But anyway, if you did 4 hatch muta to counter no stargate, you can either follow up with mass hydra and play a muta/hydra in the reverse order as it is in this guide, or you can tech straight to lurkers and hive and turtle on 4 base. Both are playable styles, but the turtle style requires that your third base be at another nat so u can get free 4th. | ||
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