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On March 21 2009 09:23 ZidaneTribal wrote:
ok ive tried this build a few times today on icc at the D+ level with mixed results. im just wondering when should you get hive and should you always get 2 more evos for melee + carapace to prepare to late game?
sometimes i just get lazy and go for 0-2 ultras with hydras but this doesnt work so well T.T
After mutas, get lurker up, get chambers for melee and carapace, and then go hive.
You do need to get 2 more chambers to catch up melee and carapace. You don't want to be too much behind in ups. Ultras aren't so great without upgrades. I would usually play lurker/hydra/ling to get more expos and make ultras after most of the upgrades are done, definitely both ultra ups.
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"Go watch F91 vs JF on destination, that's where I learned this build in the first place... "
Haha yeah thats the same game that inspired me to start doing this build, the ownage in that game was just too beautiful =)
thanks a lot, great writeup
about the lurker discussion, if I remember correctly in the msl finals lux used a 3 hatch into spire and then went for lurker ling, especially in game 1 he shows how amazingly strong zerg defense can be
I also generally think that luxury and yarnc tend to go with lurkers instead of hydras more often than Jaedong
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On March 26 2009 00:16 7mk wrote:
I also generally think that luxury and yarnc tend to go with lurkers instead of hydras more often than Jaedong
Jaedong > twins, copy the better player first, figure out the reasoning later, that's what I would do lol.
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On March 26 2009 01:07 w3jjjj wrote:Show nested quote +On March 26 2009 00:16 7mk wrote:
I also generally think that luxury and yarnc tend to go with lurkers instead of hydras more often than Jaedong Jaedong > twins, copy the better player first, figure out the reasoning later, that's what I would do lol.
Being the better player don`t need to equal the best build choices for us foreigners or even for other pro Zergs. Just because jaedong can play a ZvT style relying totally on his mutas keeping pretty large amount of MnMs from being able to attack does not mean that you and me or other foreigners can pull of the same kind of build with a high success rate. Figuring out the reasons for the builds and how it works should be done first 
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On March 26 2009 03:10 Oystein wrote:Show nested quote +On March 26 2009 01:07 w3jjjj wrote:On March 26 2009 00:16 7mk wrote:
I also generally think that luxury and yarnc tend to go with lurkers instead of hydras more often than Jaedong Jaedong > twins, copy the better player first, figure out the reasoning later, that's what I would do lol. Being the better player don`t need to equal the best build choices for us foreigners or even for other pro Zergs. Just because jaedong can play a ZvT style relying totally on his mutas keeping pretty large amount of MnMs from being able to attack does not mean that you and me or other foreigners can pull of the same kind of build with a high success rate. Figuring out the reasons for the builds and how it works should be done first
Heh, true, even pro zergs have trouble copying Jaedong. On the other hand, while our execution is inferior, our opponents are not the likes of Bisu either, so it evens out.
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On March 26 2009 03:10 Oystein wrote:Show nested quote +On March 26 2009 01:07 w3jjjj wrote:On March 26 2009 00:16 7mk wrote:
I also generally think that luxury and yarnc tend to go with lurkers instead of hydras more often than Jaedong Jaedong > twins, copy the better player first, figure out the reasoning later, that's what I would do lol. Being the better player don`t need to equal the best build choices for us foreigners or even for other pro Zergs. Just because jaedong can play a ZvT style relying totally on his mutas keeping pretty large amount of MnMs from being able to attack does not mean that you and me or other foreigners can pull of the same kind of build with a high success rate. Figuring out the reasons for the builds and how it works should be done first
Indeed and I mean Jaedong could also still win against pros if he uses suboptimal builds, best example would be ZvZ - even if his opponents build order "counters" his, he still usually wins the game cause he's just so freaking good.
I would also argue that it partly just has to do with personal style,some people preferring to play defense with a lot of lurkers, some prefering to play really aggressive ala f91 etc.
For now I'm gonna stick with this build though as I'm still doing a million mistakes with this one =)
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Nice post sMI.lols!
Btw the guy who made this OP=gosu B+ gamer on ICCUP last season for anyone who didn't know.
And as a P player I'd like to interject that muta first is definitely not an all-in build as someone suggested it was above. This new muta into hydra thing can be pretty hard to deal with because making sairs takes gas away from making reavers/hts and with hydra/muta/scourge it can be hard to even make good use of the sairs. And having mutas snipe your templars followed by a 1a2a3a4s of hydras (z can use this key combo too, not just for P players anymore!) can be pretty frustrating.
I guess one could try combating the mutalisks without making mass sairs but if you do that it is very hard to stop the muta sniping. Perhaps Dark Arcons with mael is the answer... I'll have to try that out.
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Perhaps Dark Arcons with mael is the answer... I'll have to try that out.
I've always wondered why P players never do that (I know it's been done, but never to me personally). It just seems like such a simple counter... you can't really snipe the DA and it's very easy to get the mael off (e, left click muta), then a storm and the Z is in a world of hurt...
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On March 26 2009 14:13 Jonoman92 wrote:
Nice post sMI.lols!
Btw the guy who made this OP=gosu B+ gamer on ICCUP last season for anyone who didn't know.
And as a P player I'd like to interject that muta first is definitely not an all-in build as someone suggested it was above. This new muta into hydra thing can be pretty hard to deal with because making sairs takes gas away from making reavers/hts and with hydra/muta/scourge it can be hard to even make good use of the sairs. And having mutas snipe your templars followed by a 1a2a3a4s of hydras (z can use this key combo too, not just for P players anymore!) can be pretty frustrating.
I guess one could try combating the mutalisks without making mass sairs but if you do that it is very hard to stop the muta sniping. Perhaps Dark Arcons with mael is the answer... I'll have to try that out.
a counter i'm having trouble with is dark/sair-> sneak fast 3rd gas with map control->goon/temp
hard to snipe temps when there are 2 groups of goons around
damnit ray T_T
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On March 28 2009 18:16 Saracen wrote:Show nested quote +On March 26 2009 14:13 Jonoman92 wrote:
Nice post sMI.lols!
Btw the guy who made this OP=gosu B+ gamer on ICCUP last season for anyone who didn't know.
And as a P player I'd like to interject that muta first is definitely not an all-in build as someone suggested it was above. This new muta into hydra thing can be pretty hard to deal with because making sairs takes gas away from making reavers/hts and with hydra/muta/scourge it can be hard to even make good use of the sairs. And having mutas snipe your templars followed by a 1a2a3a4s of hydras (z can use this key combo too, not just for P players anymore!) can be pretty frustrating.
I guess one could try combating the mutalisks without making mass sairs but if you do that it is very hard to stop the muta sniping. Perhaps Dark Arcons with mael is the answer... I'll have to try that out. a counter i'm having trouble with is dark/sair-> sneak fast 3rd gas with map control->goon/temp hard to snipe temps when there are 2 groups of goons around damnit ray T_T
Wasting gas on both dts and sairs he shouldn't be able to defend his new expansion against a hydra break? Unless there's some thin ramp guarding it. Or maybe 'sneak' is implying that you don't know about it, then the key is simply scouting more with zerglings.
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On March 28 2009 18:45 ZerG~LegenD wrote:Show nested quote +On March 28 2009 18:16 Saracen wrote:On March 26 2009 14:13 Jonoman92 wrote:
Nice post sMI.lols!
Btw the guy who made this OP=gosu B+ gamer on ICCUP last season for anyone who didn't know.
And as a P player I'd like to interject that muta first is definitely not an all-in build as someone suggested it was above. This new muta into hydra thing can be pretty hard to deal with because making sairs takes gas away from making reavers/hts and with hydra/muta/scourge it can be hard to even make good use of the sairs. And having mutas snipe your templars followed by a 1a2a3a4s of hydras (z can use this key combo too, not just for P players anymore!) can be pretty frustrating.
I guess one could try combating the mutalisks without making mass sairs but if you do that it is very hard to stop the muta sniping. Perhaps Dark Arcons with mael is the answer... I'll have to try that out. a counter i'm having trouble with is dark/sair-> sneak fast 3rd gas with map control->goon/temp hard to snipe temps when there are 2 groups of goons around damnit ray T_T Wasting gas on both dts and sairs he shouldn't be able to defend his new expansion against a hydra break? Unless there's some thin ramp guarding it. Or maybe 'sneak' is implying that you don't know about it, then the key is simply scouting more with zerglings.
well it's around when his DTs are out before i have overlord speed (i get it pretty late so i can have more fun w/ mutas)
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Oh, you're opening with mutas. Of course you're getting butt raped by the bisu build then, it's what it was meant to counter.
That sentence also gives me a chilling suspicion that you are delaying overlord speed just to stack your mutalisks with an overlord. If you are, I have a solution for you - stack your mutalisks with a trapped zergling. Normally you can wall in a zergling with minerals on three sides and another zergling on the last side.
Edit: On a second thought the threat of a backstab should allowed them to get away with that exp vs hydra openings too. I sugest a macro counter. One good thing with people who open sairs is that they normally have weak air defense in their main and nat, so if you can get their sairs down a muta switch can deal damage to their eco too.
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what about fast cracklings+ defliers like in best vs july all star race game seems stronger to me
they tear building to shreds in seconds .are more moblie and very cheap and easy to mass up. also u have ultra up grades so what i think is best is just a enough to defend vs speedlots storms while gettin sorta fast hive
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On March 26 2009 03:59 7mk wrote:Show nested quote +On March 26 2009 03:10 Oystein wrote:On March 26 2009 01:07 w3jjjj wrote:On March 26 2009 00:16 7mk wrote:
I also generally think that luxury and yarnc tend to go with lurkers instead of hydras more often than Jaedong Jaedong > twins, copy the better player first, figure out the reasoning later, that's what I would do lol. Being the better player don`t need to equal the best build choices for us foreigners or even for other pro Zergs. Just because jaedong can play a ZvT style relying totally on his mutas keeping pretty large amount of MnMs from being able to attack does not mean that you and me or other foreigners can pull of the same kind of build with a high success rate. Figuring out the reasons for the builds and how it works should be done first Indeed and I mean Jaedong could also still win against pros if he uses suboptimal builds, best example would be ZvZ - even if his opponents build order "counters" his, he still usually wins the game cause he's just so freaking good. I would also argue that it partly just has to do with personal style,some people preferring to play defense with a lot of lurkers, some prefering to play really aggressive ala f91 etc. For now I'm gonna stick with this build though as I'm still doing a million mistakes with this one =)
Jaedong wins in ZvZ so much not only because his micro is ridiculous, but also because he has a better understanding of the game. Although the ZvZ build fight is relevant, Jaedong has shown that each build has pros and cons that can be used to an advantage with small timing windows. The rock-paper-scissors nature of ZvZ has diminished more and more since Jaedong has come to the scene, and not only for Jaedong either.
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Sorry to bump this thread, I didn't want to make a whole thread for one question and my question pertains to this build.
I usually win almost effortlessly when this build goes right, i.e. when I get two control groups of hydras out and deny the third, kill the third, and/or set up a lurker contain.
I really had trouble today on Iccup against low D+ level protoss players who were doing early zealot pressure. The first part of my problem is that I am bad at reading what I scout, and also that at low level toss will occasionally do stupid things that don't make sense and I act on it as if it were a better player. I lost a few games because I saw a really early forge or early gateways, skipped the fourth and fifth hatch, got second gas early, and went mutas, only to have him mass corsairs and not do an early push.
The last game I played was against a D+ guy who I did standard 5 hatch hydra --> muta build against on destination. I killed his first scouting probe and didn't let any more probes get out. I had my six lings outside the bridges, an overlord over them watching forge, and an overlord in his main. He went standard core into stargate. I moved the overlord away when he started the stargate. Right after I built the fourth hatch at 32 supply, he pushed out with four zealots. I immediately put a creep at my natural and my third and started building four more zerglings (I was trying not to overdo it, as it was four zealots and it was possible he was just trying to force sunkens and wouldn't even attack). Unfortunately he rallied his gates to my third and kept non-stop producing zealots. He killed the sunken right as it finished and killed the initial lings I had. I kept making more and eventually stopped his attack, but he managed to kill the third, it had barely been able to mine anything.
If I were really good I would have found a way to scout and see if he was intending to sit back and macro or press it further. I ended up just sending two control groups of hydras to his third, his army was there so I just retreated. I just tried to drone up while taking the fourth and retaking the third in addition to teching to lurkers (skipped hydra range when I realized he was committing to zealot heavy army and when I saw he already had high templar). I started massing lings to save gas for lurkers. At some point he brought his army back and killed the third again. I knew I pretty much lost here, I ended up trying some hopeless shit with my army, we managed to trade armies, but his next attack went straight to my only remaining third gas and the hatch was down before I could kill his units, I gged right there.
Aside from whatever mechanical mistakes I make, I think my problem is I'm missing understanding toward a certain aspect of this matchup. For instance I tried doing the 4 gate 2 archon build to see what it was like for the other side, and was astonished how much mineral and gas protoss gets off of two base. In the game I mentioned, I assumed he couldn't make as many zealots as early as he did and still have corsairs and high templar out as fast as he did. I've lost other games where I've killed/forced a cancel on the protoss' third gas twice, then just got rolled over. In the recent Liquibition, where F91 lost the first time to Nony, I was amazed that F91 was able to pick off something like eight High Templar, and then just get rolled over anyway. When mass hydra doesn't win the game, I usually go into lurker contain. I have no idea what to do when I can't get a lurker contain set up and there is a mid/late game protoss blob of zealots, dragoons, and templar/archons moving around the map. Is it as simple as ensuring I don't lose my bases and macroing as much as possible? Is it ever acceptable to let the toss keep his third gas? I always feel like that is going to lose me the game if he keeps it up for too long.
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I don't ZvP so i'll just say this:
in your case (a specific game), a replay would be probably the most beneficial for you and for us in order to analyze your mistakes.
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You are not supposed to win at the hydra stage, the points is denying his third and gain map control. If you fail to deny his third, you still want the second benefit of map control, snipe hts and go lurker hydra. P's early army is weak without hts. Vs late game army with many goons, you just have to mass as many units as you can. A lurker field can absorb many storms, then you throw everything at him for a surround when his energy is low, all comes down to whether you produced enough units, there is no other way around it.
As for reading builds, yea it's hard if your opponent does weird stuff. Just watch the rep and study the strat afterward, and make sure you don't lose to the same trick more than once.
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United States10774 Posts
On March 28 2009 21:22 ZerG~LegenD wrote:
Oh, you're opening with mutas. Of course you're getting butt raped by the bisu build then, it's what it was meant to counter.
That sentence also gives me a chilling suspicion that you are delaying overlord speed just to stack your mutalisks with an overlord. If you are, I have a solution for you - stack your mutalisks with a trapped zergling. Normally you can wall in a zergling with minerals on three sides and another zergling on the last side.
Edit: On a second thought the threat of a backstab should allowed them to get away with that exp vs hydra openings too. I sugest a macro counter. One good thing with people who open sairs is that they normally have weak air defense in their main and nat, so if you can get their sairs down a muta switch can deal damage to their eco too.
no no no, saracen does not open with mutas. he does the standard spire-drone-hydra build, but i counter it with sair/dt harassment into speedzealot/high templar --> 3rd base expo style. it lets me have map control while potentially doing some damage as well. it's kind of hard to explain it. dan, upload a good rep where i do it vs you or something. nobody can help you really if you don't, as you can see here.
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Good read. Do you have any notes regarding specific maps?
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EPT
