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On March 11 2009 07:30 Superiorwolf wrote:Show nested quote +On March 11 2009 02:01 sashkata wrote:On March 11 2009 01:31 w3jjjj wrote:On March 11 2009 00:33 Superiorwolf wrote:
a)extremely fast 2nd gas, maybe when cyber core is half done
(a.) is an interesting point, I'm not sure about that fast of a second gas, but it does make sense for a gas heavy build. Need protoss feedback. For your usuall 4 gate archon/zeal attack you need your second gas as your expo completes or star it immediately after the nex completes. I dont think you can judge from that. Really? I don't think I often see gases that fast when they are going 4 gate 2 archon build. I'm pretty sure from watching replays that I see most people such as iefnaij not getting their gases nearly that fast.
Well, I wont say I'm 100% sure for I'm just C- and it's possible that I'm doing something wrong, but the guide that was here about the 4 gate 2 archon attack stated that you should get your second gas immediately after core finishes, but I still had a slight gas shortage, so I started getting it a bit earlier. Bottom line is - you need your second gas early.
Pls correct me if I'm wrong.
About the hydra or muta first - Your corasair should be able to see it easily. If he chases you with scourge check his nat gas. If he has tacken it than muta first is very possible. But the easiest way is to just manuver your corasir around until you see what's hatching from the eggs.
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On March 11 2009 07:53 Superiorwolf wrote:F91's games are all very great demonstrations of this playstyle, even with his not-so-perfect macro. A question I pose: lols, when you first were explaining this build on TL.net to me and others, you advocated getting three evolution chambers after starting the fifth hatchery. I am wondering where this idea has gone (it's been maybe 8 months since then)... is it because of the lack of gas, or is it to utilize as many drones as possible? As of currently I am continuing to get 2 evolution chambers, one for +1 missiles and one for +1 carapace. In order to do this while getting hydra upgrades and overlord speed in addition to regular upgrades, it forces me to get an earlier second gas. I've noticed that progamers like Jaedong don't really like getting the carapace, but I feel like carapace can be so useful in your transition to begin using zerglings, otherwise zealots can easily tear up pretty large amounts of zerglings. Granted your upgrades will still be behind his slightly, I think this is pretty beneficial. However, I have questions about how this affects the early or premidgame economy. I think hyvaa's games are a pretty cool variation of this build, where he begins with a 9 pool speed (but he doesn't actually get speed, and instead saves the 100 gas for lair later) and forces the Protoss to make 2 cannons first. Once he kills the scout, the Protoss might not attempt to scout again soon because he'll assume you've gotten speed. This will force him to play much more cautiously and often Protosses will pull probes or add a cannon or two on top of their original two in order to be safe from zergling all-in. However, if he does decide to scout, he will notice your slow zerglings and will assume you have immediately made a Lair with that first 100 gas you mined, and thus will be very cautious about fast mutalisks or fast lurker drop, etc. So a lot of progamers responded with +1 air weapons and constant corsair production. In reality, hyvaa had been pumping drones and started his lair a little bit after his 3rd hatchery iirc, and played into a standard hydra/muta (often without the muta because of corsair threat of +1, which his build made the protosses do), but at the same time forced the protoss to play extremely defensively. It seems to sort of rely on the Protoss player not being too sure of going on, but I think it's pretty interesting and you/me should try it sometime vs the protosses in our clan. Something by.hero likes to do is open with mutalisks and then go into lurkers. What are the advantages of lurkers over hydra/muta? It seems that it will defend well against any early types of attack, but may be vulnerable to harrassment. As well, as I figure and as you once told me, it forces the Zerg to play defensively and try to get a 4th, but otherwise give up a lot of map control. If so, why is it that hero prefers opening with lurkers every game? What are it's benefits? I'm thinking you may get faster upgrades, faster hive and/or better economy. Also 9 pool vs 9 overpool vs 12 hatch drone and mining efficiency tests as well as comparison tests to protoss responses to seeing those builds (ie nexus first, 2 cannons first, etc) and probe and mining efficiency rates, is it really that big of a difference from an overpool that just serves to deny scouts and a 12 hatch? I will should probably test it. Just some questions I felt like asking...  get on iccup at 7 PM PST ;D
The chamber question appears to be an evolution in ZvP theory over the past year or so. The build was first popularized by Jaedong when he defeated Bisu on bluestorm (back when Bisu was invincible vs Z). Bisu is known for his mass corsair builds so the build Jaedong initially designed was to counter sair/reaver. Also see Jaedong vs Stork on Fantasy II. Vs sair/reaver as long as you control the early sairs with scourge, you have no need for ground units until reaver comes out. Back then Z will get more drones and a 6 hatch before hydra production. I told you to get 3 chamber because it's what Jaedong did, better to copy first and analyze it later  . After every Z started using that build, the P counter was the zeal/archon timing rush right when hydra production begins. Many less pro Z got raped on TV, then the build evolved to a more modest drone powering phase, Z stay on 5 hatch, gets only 1 chamber, and many hydras earlier to counter the zeal/archon push, and up to today the build seems to work fairly well. That is how I understand the changes.
Fake bos are fun but unless Jaedong starts to use it, I just wouldn't bother.
Lurkers are better than mutas in that they require no micro and provide a very good defense. I always make drones when I morph lurkers, knowing that those lurker will make my defense that much stronger so I need less other units to survive. Also, with mutas Z has to be the aggressor, sniping templars and engage right afterward when P has no storm, where as lurkers are rather old school teachings saying it's the P's job to kill Z, but not vice versa, so Z just has to grow larger and larger and he'll win if P cannot kill him in time.
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Superior wolf, do you not think its worth it to keep all 3 of your upgrades going for most of the game? Lately I've been seeing alot of zergs adding their 3rd evo chamber at the same time as their 2nd one, to be able to change their unit composition in response to the Ps unit mix.
It seems like Z is too open to an almost pure goon/ht timing attack right around when hive finishes. Having the ability to get upgraded lings out around this time seems really helpful vs this, even if they are only at 2-1.
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It seems like Z is too open to an almost pure goon/ht timing attack right around when hive finishes. Having the ability to get upgraded lings out around this time seems really helpful vs this, even if they are only at 2-1.
I'm taking a wild guess here saying that I think a goon/ht timing attack just after hive will be strong, but not impossible to deal with, because the ht's in that attack will only have energy for 1 storm each saved up.
I'm likely wrong about that point, but even so, because toss is going for a timing attack with goons just before swarm is ready, he really can't afford to not do a lot of damage, because then he is stuck with goons against swarm, so I guess what zerg can look for is the optimal position to engage the toss army (flank it against a wall or something), and also to try to fake in and out with your army from different angles to try to provoke some wasted storms. If you can't waste storms, you can at least delay the attack because ht's move slowly and he will have to wait for them otherwise you will snipe them from the rear. By the time he gets to where he wants to attack you should have a nice defense set up, and you should be blocking any reinforcements, and eventually you will have macroed an army bigger than his attacking force. If you trade armies, it's to zergs advantage, so really protoss must do damage or be behind.
/theorycrafting
EDIT: ok what I meant by 'he must do damage or be stuck with goons against swarm, is that he can't afford commit to making goons and then decide to retreat, meaning once he commits to making this attack, he must follow through with it
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Dear all,
I play Starcraft since 1999 and used to be quite good once. I just recently starting to play on ICCUP again and made it to C+ last season. Maybe I could be slightly higher, but I'm trying to learn new things and strategies and learn the new maps thus I'm wasting a few games here and there.
Now, back to topic: I have the strong feeling - and I think backed up by evidence - that going for Mass Hydras + Speed is not the best follow-up for this build once the 5th hatch is in place for the following reasons:
1) Hydras are quite weak vs speed lots unless you have huge numbers
2) Hydras suck vs storms - in particular in huge numbers
3) If you upgrade +1 attack for hydras, this will set back your late game as you can't match the toss attack ups with armor, i.e. you can't to a switch to killer cracklings.
4) Sniping Temps with Mutas later works, but it is unrealiable - i.e. the toss can counter it fairly easily if he plays well, for example by getting *a lot* of temps, getting enough sairs / goons and in general just microing well. I have the feeling that sniping only works well if toss is overly aggressive.
Now, for reasons 1) and 2) there is usually a hard fight going on once toss moves out with speed lots, his first 2 temps and 1 archon. (or maybe even 4 temps if he feels bold). During this struggle, Zerg usually does not get a strong upper hand, it's rather a very contested fight. I would even say that Zerg is at a slight disadvantage here. This seems to be backed up by a lot of high class replays.
Therefore, apart from going for mutas (which works better but has other problems) I'm asking myself why people upgrade lurker aspect first (once den finishes) and go for lurk/ling/scourge instead of mass hydra. The upside of this is that we save some money and can set up 2 evos for melee attack and armor fairly soon (or maybe get the 1st evo sooner to match toss +1).
Now, we have a stronger army, are stronger vs storm and also have lurkers at hand to delay any expo attempts, defend our bases and possibly set up a contain. If we can exclude sair / reaver, then this style should be stronger against the standard sair to timing push build that toss does.
I have the following questions:
i) if we want to match his +1, when should we get the 1st evo? (after spire, after 4th hatch, after 5th hatch?)
ii) if we does go sair reaver, when will he have reaver and shuttle ready? I.e. say that we upgrade lurkers first from our den, but manage to pick up that he is going sair reaver through scouting later on, do we have sufficient time at hand to counter? (for example, getting hydra speed after lurker aspect, getting more scourge/muta, etc) I would assume that we do, but since sair reaver seems to be quite rare, others will know better.
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On March 11 2009 16:30 hide.X wrote:
I'm taking a wild guess here saying that I think a goon/ht timing attack just after hive will be strong, but not impossible to deal with, because the ht's in that attack will only have energy for 1 storm each saved up.
The templars will have at least 2 storms each. An army of 20 goons and 5 templars with some zealots is very strong due to the potential damage that can be done by 10 psy storms, more if P has the energy upgrade. The way P fights is to let the storms do most of the damage, before deciding whether he wants to commit his army for an attack. Usually if P unleashed all his storms and Z still has a lot of units, P will simply retreat and recharge his energy, and take almost no losses. If P used his storms and Z lost most of his army, that's when P will charge in and kill whatever he can.
There is no timing attack right before hive in ZvP, in almost every game there will be several fights before hive comes, while swarms are great for lurker defense, Z cannot rely on it like in ZvT.
On March 12 2009 01:56 Wayneman wrote:
Now, back to topic: I have the strong feeling - and I think backed up by evidence - that going for Mass Hydras + Speed is not the best follow-up for this build once the 5th hatch is in place for the following reasons:
1) Hydras are quite weak vs speed lots unless you have huge numbers
2) Hydras suck vs storms - in particular in huge numbers
3) If you upgrade +1 attack for hydras, this will set back your late game as you can't match the toss attack ups with armor, i.e. you can't to a switch to killer cracklings.
4) Sniping Temps with Mutas later works, but it is unrealiable - i.e. the toss can counter it fairly easily if he plays well, for example by getting *a lot* of temps, getting enough sairs / goons and in general just microing well. I have the feeling that sniping only works well if toss is overly aggressive.
Now, for reasons 1) and 2) there is usually a hard fight going on once toss moves out with speed lots, his first 2 temps and 1 archon. (or maybe even 4 temps if he feels bold). During this struggle, Zerg usually does not get a strong upper hand, it's rather a very contested fight. I would even say that Zerg is at a slight disadvantage here. This seems to be backed up by a lot of high class replays.
The hydra/muta build in this guide is the currently most popular ZvP build around, many pros use it, and you can get the replay of F91 vs JF on destination right here on TL. I will not argue whether it's the best 5-hatch follow up or not, the popularity seems to speak for itself.
1) The very foundation of this build relies on mass hydra to kill zeal/archon, if you read the guide you will know that Z's hydra count is timed to counter P's unit count. So yes, Z will have "huge numbers" as that is what the build intends to get.
2) The point of the muta transition is designed to eliminate templars to remove the storm factor so hydra can rule, and the timing of the mutas is designed to nullify any aggression the P can have.
3) This is not a build that relies on cracklings. The +1 missile attack is good for hydras, and you will have +2 missile attack when you transition into hydra/lurker/ling. Lings are not the backbone of the Z army in this build, hydras and lurkers are, and you vastly underestimate the power of +2 attack lurkers.
4) Muta sniping in this build is a one time deal entirely based on timing. When mutas come out P will not have more than a few dragoons unless he intended to go pure goon/ht. Templar assassination at that particular timing is not difficult. Also for that timing, Z will have 50 upgraded +1 hydras to take map control immediately after the templars are gone. Afterwards Z will transition into hydra/lurker, and muta sniping becomes a bonus instead of a requirement as the game no longer relies on it.
I will agree with you that mutas are unreliable, as much depends on micro. But with any strategy that uses mutas, that unreliable factor has to be considered. Even in ZvT if your muta harass is inefficient, Z will fall behind. That doesn't mean the strategy of the build is flawed. It is simply micro skills and a certain degree of luck.
I don't know how to stress the importance of timing any clearer. If P moves out with 2 archons and some speelots, he will find 30 some hydras + a few speedlings ready to defend, that is the whole point of the hydra play portion of this build. As I said in the guide, which I suspect you did not read, I said that in case P did not morph archons, Z should simply assume a defensive position until mutas come out. While Z will not attack the P when he has a few storms, P at that particular timing does not have enough units to attack Z either. 15ish zealots and 4 templars are great in an open field, but if P charges into Z's nat and gets pinned on the cliff by a perfect surround, it will be a one sided slaughter with Z coming on top.
You claim that Z's "disadvantage" at the particular timing when P moves out with 1 archon 2 templars and some zealots is backed up by high class replays. With all respect, please share the replays with us.
I will conclude by emphasizing that this a guide on the hydra/muta build, it is one strategy out of many possibilities in ZvP, and I would appreciate it if you will limit your discussion on issues relevant to this build only. Lurker builds may be great, but they are outside of the scope of our discussion here. As are mass corsair builds, against which Z will use different strategies.
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@w3jjjj
First of all, thanks for the long reply. Please don't misunderstand me, I did not intend to challenge the strategy in itself, I would just like to understand in better. In particular, I want to understand why the pros are doing it as is, i.e. so hydra heavy.
Now, with regards to replays, one example would be the recent Dreiven vs F91 replay in ths replay section here. There are lots other - I'm not saying that Z loses all those games, but in general, toss army with storms > mass hydras (if the game until then has been going on evenly).
I of course read the guide you gave - and it's great. The strategy works well and is very strong. This though does not mean that an alternative take can't be stronger. Currently, I'd suspect that the main reason why Korean pros go so hydra heavy is that mass sair / dt or mass sair / reaver is far more popular among Korean top players than on average. I would assume that if that was not the case, going for lurks instead of speed hydrs once den is done would be the standard.
I don't want to divert too much from the strategy though. So say Toss goes temp heavy, we take a defensive position until mutas come out. As I see it - though I'll have to try it out of course - is that this will give toss an easy 3rd base. So he'll grab a 3rd base and be able to mass up even more of an army which will make our hydras comparatively weaker. So if we can't stop the toss 3rd, we'll head for a mass fight with lots of hydras vs a large toss army which we will have a lot of trouble with.
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On March 12 2009 06:06 w3jjjj wrote:
The templars will have at least 2 storms each. An army of 20 goons and 5 templars with some zealots is very strong due to the potential damage that can be done by 10 psy storms, more if P has the energy upgrade. The way P fights is to let the storms do most of the damage, before deciding whether he wants to commit his army for an attack. Usually if P unleashed all his storms and Z still has a lot of units, P will simply retreat and recharge his energy, and take almost no losses. If P used his storms and Z lost most of his army, that's when P will charge in and kill whatever he can.
There is no timing attack right before hive in ZvP, in almost every game there will be several fights before hive comes, while swarms are great for lurker defense, Z cannot rely on it like in ZvT.game no longer relies on it.
I didn't mean it in the traditional sense of a timing attack. I just meant that it seems like a common timing where P has been crushing zergs using hydra/lurk lately. I remember jangbi vs some zerg on colosseum, where he was down a few bases, and it seemed like the game was about slip out of his hands, but he had been building a very dragoon/ht heavy army, and absolutely rolled the zerg before he could get his defilers out.
It's also been happening repeatedly to me on iccup, I've had multiple games slip away from me where it seems like almost no amount of hydra/lurk will stop a big goon/ht army. Lately I've seen some reps of zergs who are going back to 3evos, so they can readily switch to a more ling heavy army to combat a P army with this specific unit composition.
Do you think it's worth it to play a style like this, or should hydra/lurk be enough?
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You suuure you read it? You keep saying hydras are weak to storm when the purpose of this build is to get a lot of hydras, and then KILL THE TEMPLARS. I'm not going to reply to the part about taking his third because obviously you read the guide, and obviously read the part about protoss taking his 3rd.
?
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On March 12 2009 07:05 Wayneman wrote:
I of course read the guide you gave - and it's great. The strategy works well and is very strong. This though does not mean that an alternative take can't be stronger. Currently, I'd suspect that the main reason why Korean pros go so hydra heavy is that mass sair / dt or mass sair / reaver is far more popular among Korean top players than on average. I would assume that if that was not the case, going for lurks instead of speed hydrs once den is done would be the standard.
I don't want to divert too much from the strategy though. So say Toss goes temp heavy, we take a defensive position until mutas come out. As I see it - though I'll have to try it out of course - is that this will give toss an easy 3rd base. So he'll grab a 3rd base and be able to mass up even more of an army which will make our hydras comparatively weaker. So if we can't stop the toss 3rd, we'll head for a mass fight with lots of hydras vs a large toss army which we will have a lot of trouble with.
You have a good point in that Koreans do use corsair heavy builds more often, so that most Z will start off with hydras for flexibility. As to whether lurker builds will be used more often without corsairs, looking into the past we see savior going fast lurkers quite often with great success before he ran into bisu, so I think it is definitely possible, but no one can quite predict where the future is going.
I mentioned in the guide that P will almost certainly take a fast third if he did not morph archons. I also suggested that Z immediately go mutas to see if he can take out the templars before cannons finish, if so Z will have a lead as the hydras can take out that expansion, if not then at least Z will have map control, try to pick off templars and don't let P transfer probes, meanwhile make drones for our 4th expo to catch up in econ.
On March 12 2009 08:02 sixghost wrote:
I didn't mean it in the traditional sense of a timing attack. I just meant that it seems like a common timing where P has been crushing zergs using hydra/lurk lately. I remember jangbi vs some zerg on colosseum, where he was down a few bases, and it seemed like the game was about slip out of his hands, but he had been building a very dragoon/ht heavy army, and absolutely rolled the zerg before he could get his defilers out.
I think the best counter to mass goons is your basic mass hydra/ling as I stated in the guide. If possible, 3 chamber mass hydra/ling is best, but in those pro games the Z may not necessarily have the option for that switch cuz they may have already committed to heavy lurker/ling, and a switch to hydra/ling may not be viable due to resource constrains.
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Just as a small tip for zergs. When switching to mutas while doing this I find that it is worth it to trap 1 ling behind your minerals or in another spot where you just need 1 zergling to block another zergling, so that you can group it together with your mutas, it will give you less of a hassle as speed upgraded overlords move a bit to fast.
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It's nice to see some more guides for zergs out there.
Thnx w3jjjj!
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Added a better illustrative game by request. Vs gns.i-cruzado, A- P.
These kind of games are rare, cuz it's hard to find a good opponent, and I usually lose when I find one. 
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Calgary25990 Posts
Added to recommended threads. Thanks.
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On March 12 2009 08:20 Supah wrote:
Just as a small tip for zergs. When switching to mutas while doing this I find that it is worth it to trap 1 ling behind your minerals or in another spot where you just need 1 zergling to block another zergling, so that you can group it together with your mutas, it will give you less of a hassle as speed upgraded overlords move a bit to fast.
Oh wow good idea, I have been wondering a good method for stacking mutas with ovie speed already done. Thanks.
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Very simple question @OP:
What strategy do you use if there is no 3rd gas at the 3rd base? If been playing around with this build a lot but can't find something that I feel comfortable with.
Pure Hydra Ling Scourge I usually lose map control to storm in the mid game and also I can't seem to stop toss from taking the 3rd quite easily.
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I've been having trouble vs Koreans doing the 3 hatch muta into hydra build, but instead of going up to 5 hatches before hydra, they go up to 7 and take a 4th (on colosseum 2). It's a god damned nightmare.
You should add some notes on when as Z you can abuse the early game macro window to this extent - which is vs just about any build on colosseum 2, for example.
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@Louder:
What do they do in the mid game then? Stay with Hydra only + Muta? It would be great if you could post some reps
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On March 19 2009 22:19 Wayneman wrote:
Very simple question @OP:
What strategy do you use if there is no 3rd gas at the 3rd base? If been playing around with this build a lot but can't find something that I feel comfortable with.
Pure Hydra Ling Scourge I usually lose map control to storm in the mid game and also I can't seem to stop toss from taking the 3rd quite easily.
Use a different build, XD. Builds are map dependent.
For example, on bluestorm, you should always play lurker camp in the middle, so all the expos on your side is protected.
On March 20 2009 00:39 Louder wrote:
I've been having trouble vs Koreans doing the 3 hatch muta into hydra build, but instead of going up to 5 hatches before hydra, they go up to 7 and take a 4th (on colosseum 2). It's a god damned nightmare.
You should add some notes on when as Z you can abuse the early game macro window to this extent - which is vs just about any build on colosseum 2, for example.
7 hatch is greedy, I've seen 6 before. Your best bet is 2 stargate sair/reaver to contest air control and do eco damage direct to punish his over expand. Alternatively an old school no stargate +1 timing attack also works, since the attack comes much quicker it will force mutas on 4 hatch, not allowing him to over expand.
The amount of workers you get is based on the strategy you intend to use, it is not always the more the better... In the hydra/muta, timing is critical, making extra drones early will delay hydras, which will defeat the very purpose of this build.
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ok ive tried this build a few times today on icc at the D+ level with mixed results. im just wondering when should you get hive and should you always get 2 more evos for melee + carapace to prepare to late game?
sometimes i just get lazy and go for 0-2 ultras with hydras but this doesnt work so well T.T
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EPT
