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ZerG~LegenD
Sweden1179 Posts
On March 10 2009 22:26 Oystein wrote: Mutas first are in no way an all in build... It transitions fine into 5hatch hydra. If you cut a hatch for a quicker second gas they'll set you back for sure - if it fails. If you instead add the fifth hatch normally and delay your mutas instead there'll be little harm done. | ||
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w3jjjj
United States760 Posts
On March 10 2009 18:05 ffswowsucks wrote: I would like to see a rep were you lose so we can see the flaws of this BO. Also showing us a replay were the toss is losing his expansion when he got 3 ht's and you going 6-7 hatch hydra vs his 6 gates is obviously a win situation for you. Also I dont get why you first go hydra then muta because Ive seen pro's going first muta then hydra. Also I dont get why you didnt get the expansion right next to your natural and you decided to take the 9th. You can defense the closest position much easier.Overall its a nice BO but as said before its better to go first muta then hydra simply because I disagree with you saying that cors/reaver/ht is bad and your solution should be mass hydra, I mean rofl.But YES cors/reaver is the hardest thing to play as toss but if u manage to play it right its the most leathal. All this are my opinion. Feel free to correct some mistakes I might have pointed out and I ll try and answer it  The replay was shown to demonstrate a correct execution of the Z build, not that the game itself has any value. As you wish, here is a game I lose, [url blocked] The weakness of this build is as I've said in the guide, if you mess up that muta/hydra army and lose map control, Z will be at a great disadvantage. In this game While I was attacking his secret expo, he counted and in poor response, I lost my mutas to his corsairs and my hydras got stormed due to failure to eliminate templars. Muta--> hydra is viable, but it is weak vs mass corsair builds, either corsair/dt or corsair/reaver is superior. See bisu vs savior games for confirmation. Muta --> hydra is used vs no stargate or if you are certain that P has stopped corsairs. The position of my third is fine, cross position is long enough for me to defend, 9:00 gives me a free 4th. If the P spawned cross position to me, taking another nat is riskier as it is closer, in that case I will take the corner. | ||
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ZerG~LegenD
Sweden1179 Posts
On March 10 2009 23:13 DragoonPK wrote: Could you help me out here, I used the 5hatch into muta however I dont seem to be able to win against my friend. Could you look at my replay and identify anything? http://www.fighterreplays.com/starcraft/replays/ff19bc Huge bank account, wasted mutalisks (you lost more resources than he did, and he wasn't left without temps at the crucial timing) and a suicidal attack. Please don't ever attack the protoss like that, it's just so fucking dumb. First of all, make sure you catch him leaving his base with those zealots and make some extra lings in time to stop him from getting into your main. Then pay more attention to your supply levels. This is really important, you're more or less suffering from a supply drop all game long. The idea of making a overlord at 27 is fine, but has to make sure it's being made the very second you hit 27 supply, waiting 10 seconds to make it just doesn't cut it. This is even more important in the mid-game, where you as lols said should make your overlords well before limit. You will almost inevitable lose the overlord in his base, so prepare for it by making a surplus one when his stargate completes. Though that round of overlords (was it 7 at once?) was a little to on the heavy side. The greatest benefit of taking out his templars with mutas is if you can strike his army with hydras right after. Going after templars if fine even if you don't intend to, but going on a sucidal streak to get them is not. And a line is not a proper battle formation, at least not when turned like that. Try to turn it 90 degrees around and you'll be much better off. | ||
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EtherealDeath
United States8366 Posts
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18zotbob
45 Posts
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EtherealDeath
United States8366 Posts
On March 11 2009 00:03 18zotbob wrote: what you gonna do if P goes mass sair/reaver, you muta and scourge will just be wasted then you are forced to play mass hydra which he will just use reaver harass or even dt drop because your make all your lords stay in 1 group to avoid sair rape and that makes you vulnerable to DT drop in main. Then P can take more expos while harassing and mass to zeal/goon/ht. I find this build very annoying. burrowed hydras freak the shit outta me when I try sair/reaver against this build >.> | ||
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Mobius
Canada1268 Posts
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Superiorwolf
United States5509 Posts
On March 10 2009 18:05 ffswowsucks wrote: I would like to see a rep were you lose so we can see the flaws of this BO. Also showing us a replay were the toss is losing his expansion when he got 3 ht's and you going 6-7 hatch hydra vs his 6 gates is obviously a win situation for you. Also I dont get why you first go hydra then muta because Ive seen pro's going first muta then hydra. Also I dont get why you didnt get the expansion right next to your natural and you decided to take the 9th. You can defense the closest position much easier.Overall its a nice BO but as said before its better to go first muta then hydra simply because I disagree with you saying that cors/reaver/ht is bad and your solution should be mass hydra, I mean rofl.But YES cors/reaver is the hardest thing to play as toss but if u manage to play it right its the most leathal. All this are my opinion. Feel free to correct some mistakes I might have pointed out and I ll try and answer it Mutas first is probably safer than hydras first in that it is harder to be harrassed, but in general it starts off with a slightly weaker economy (much slower 5th hatchery) and is weak vs heavy corsair openings. However, it allows you to keep corsair counts down and possibly do economic damage while keeping yourself relatively safe as you drone up and then proceed into hydras. The key point of mutas first though is to not lose any mutalisks at all, because they are absolutely crucial to have in sniping templars later. Once some archons and some sairs are out, it's best to be much more cautious so you can save your mutalisks for later. For the question about starting mutalisks and seeing your opponent going sair/reaver or sair/dt: you should ideally be able to scout that he is going a sair heavy build either by some few things: a)extremely fast 2nd gas, maybe when cyber core is half done b)extremely low gateway count c)two stargates, or constant sair production or +1 (sometimes some people like Best and jaystar like to just make 5 corsairs or so though, but maintain ground armies) d)robotics facility obviously So when you scout that you'll want to make sure not to open mutalisks and instead open with hydras. If you did perhaps open mutalisks, all is not over because as his sair count is low you can focus on getting some sair kills and keeping his sair count low and even a shuttle snipe if you're good enough. At the same time, you'll be upgrading burrow and getting hydras. Hydras are a counter to sair/dt and sair/reaver, but it all depends on having burrowed lings on the map to see his shuttle positions and being able to nullify any attacks he makes while expanding as much as you can. Also keep lings in front of his base or at expoes so you are sure he doesn't sneak an expo, this way it will be very hard for him to expo. The most dangerous thing is if he does a sudden switch to ground forces with lots of storm and you still think he's going heavy sair/reaver, but that won't surprise you if you deal with the reavers efficiently. Later in the game he can use reavers to defend bases, which makes them exponentially harder to break. My two cents. | ||
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nosliw
United States2716 Posts
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18zotbob
45 Posts
On March 11 2009 00:44 nosliw wrote: So is this a good counter to the 4 gate 2 archon build? I thought the timing on the 4 gate 2 archon is suppose to hit when hydra production just started. lol..... hydras can come out alot faster and I mean ALOT faster, I can get like 15 hydras when you just have 5 zeals... | ||
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w3jjjj
United States760 Posts
On March 10 2009 23:13 DragoonPK wrote: Could you help me out here, I used the 5hatch into muta however I dont seem to be able to win against my friend. Could you look at my replay and identify anything? http://www.fighterreplays.com/starcraft/replays/ff19bc Zerg-Legend has made a good post above, I don't think I'll have anything to add so I'm gonna play lazy on this one XD. On March 10 2009 23:50 EtherealDeath wrote: Here's some protoss qq: What would be the best set of counter strategies to this, that is what set of counter / counter-counter / counter-counter-counter etc would leave the zerg most confused / bad off. Mass corsair builds if you wish to avoid facing hydra/muta in the first place, Z will not use the hydra/muta strategy if he sees mass corsairs. Alternatively, goon/ht is a good build, the goons can protect the hts and storms deal with hydras, Z will probably avoid going muta again and go mass hydra/ling instead. This is in the guide btw. On March 11 2009 00:03 18zotbob wrote: what you gonna do if P goes mass sair/reaver, you muta and scourge will just be wasted then you are forced to play mass hydra which he will just use reaver harass or even dt drop because your make all your lords stay in 1 group to avoid sair rape and that makes you vulnerable to DT drop in main. Then P can take more expos while harassing and mass to zeal/goon/ht. I find this build very annoying. I said in the guide that vs mass corsair builds we will not use hydra/muta, therefore it is outside the scope of this thread's discussion. Current theory on fighting sair/reaver or sair/dt is hydra/scourge, see Jaedong vs Bisu on destination in the GOMTV special match. On March 11 2009 00:33 Superiorwolf wrote: a)extremely fast 2nd gas, maybe when cyber core is half done b)extremely low gateway count c)two stargates, or constant sair production or +1 (sometimes some people like Best and jaystar like to just make 5 corsairs or so though, but maintain ground armies) d)robotics facility obviously (a.) is an interesting point, I'm not sure about that fast of a second gas, but it does make sense for a gas heavy build. Need protoss feedback. (b)(c) are good signs if you can scout them. But usually P makes a fast dragoon as soon as core finishes to kill the overlord. A normal stargate build gets citadel at the same time and gets archive before putting down 4-5 gateways, it is unlikely that your overlord can live that long to see it. (b) can be false since your overlord will die before those gateways are put down at their normal timing, low gateway count at that time doesn't suggest much, (c) can be false since P can hide a second stargate elsewhere, so seeing 1 doesn't mean he will not have 2. P's build cannot be read that early for you to make a conscious decision of whether to make mutas or hydra first. The fastest scouting you can do is with your initial pair of scourge, but you would have already committed to either mutas or hydras at that time. (d) robotics comes after stargate, for the same reason that your overlord won't live long enough to see it, you'll have to wait for scourge, and once again, you will have committed to either mutas or hydra already. The good thing of going hydras first is that it's flexible vs all builds, where as going mutas first is riskier. However, there is a delayed muta first build that gets more lings early and use sunkens to defend, so Z can set up his nice econ with 5 hatch before making mutas, but that build gets a late hydra den, so once again the decision has to be made before scourge scouting. You pretty much have to go into a game with a particular strategy in mind, and then adapt afterward. On March 11 2009 00:44 nosliw wrote: So is this a good counter to the 4 gate 2 archon build? I thought the timing on the 4 gate 2 archon is suppose to hit when hydra production just started. A little while back Z gets more drones before switching to hydras, you typically see a 6th hatch going down featuring a fast 4th expo, before hydra production. The economy is better but it leaves Z vulnerable to the zeal/archon rush. After suffering some losses in the pro scene, Z became more modest with the drone powering. In the current build where we start hydra production at 40ish supply, Z should have enough hydras to counter that zeal/archon push. | ||
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sixghost
United States2096 Posts
On March 11 2009 00:03 18zotbob wrote: what you gonna do if P goes mass sair/reaver, you muta and scourge will just be wasted then you are forced to play mass hydra which he will just use reaver harass or even dt drop because your make all your lords stay in 1 group to avoid sair rape and that makes you vulnerable to DT drop in main. Then P can take more expos while harassing and mass to zeal/goon/ht. I find this build very annoying. If he scouts sair/reaver he isn't going to make any mutalisks -_- You just make maybe 6 scourge to try to pick off a few sairs early, or maybe snipe a shuttle above the robo if you are lucky. Then just get both hydra upgrades, get burrow, and take a 4th when you can. Just make sure you have lurkers in time for his ground follow up. | ||
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sixghost
United States2096 Posts
On March 11 2009 01:31 18zotbob wrote: lol..... hydras can come out alot faster and I mean ALOT faster, I can get like 15 hydras when you just have 5 zeals... If you have that many hydra out when the P has that little of an army, you either have way too few drones, or your opponent is doing the BO wrong. | ||
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sashkata
Bulgaria3241 Posts
On March 11 2009 01:31 w3jjjj wrote: (a.) is an interesting point, I'm not sure about that fast of a second gas, but it does make sense for a gas heavy build. Need protoss feedback. For your usuall 4 gate archon/zeal attack you need your second gas as your expo completes or star it immediately after the nex completes. I dont think you can judge from that. | ||
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Ideas
United States8055 Posts
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DragoonPK
3259 Posts
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Gnojfatelob
Belgium216 Posts
Also replaysss of protoss winning this are very much appreciated. | ||
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Superiorwolf
United States5509 Posts
On March 11 2009 02:01 sashkata wrote: For your usuall 4 gate archon/zeal attack you need your second gas as your expo completes or star it immediately after the nex completes. I dont think you can judge from that. Really? I don't think I often see gases that fast when they are going 4 gate 2 archon build. I'm pretty sure from watching replays that I see most people such as iefnaij not getting their gases nearly that fast. And thanks lols for the corrections on some of my steps - obviously if you can manage to scout those things you should be fairly sure but it's not very likely from what you've stated | ||
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Zyarktodt
United States67 Posts
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Superiorwolf
United States5509 Posts
I think hyvaa's games are a pretty cool variation of this build, where he begins with a 9 pool speed (but he doesn't actually get speed, and instead saves the 100 gas for lair later) and forces the Protoss to make 2 cannons first. Once he kills the scout, the Protoss might not attempt to scout again soon because he'll assume you've gotten speed. This will force him to play much more cautiously and often Protosses will pull probes or add a cannon or two on top of their original two in order to be safe from zergling all-in. However, if he does decide to scout, he will notice your slow zerglings and will assume you have immediately made a Lair with that first 100 gas you mined, and thus will be very cautious about fast mutalisks or fast lurker drop, etc. So a lot of progamers responded with +1 air weapons and constant corsair production. In reality, hyvaa had been pumping drones and started his lair a little bit after his 3rd hatchery iirc, and played into a standard hydra/muta (often without the muta because of corsair threat of +1, which his build made the protosses do), but at the same time forced the protoss to play extremely defensively. It seems to sort of rely on the Protoss player not being too sure of going on, but I think it's pretty interesting and you/me should try it sometime vs the protosses in our clan. Something by.hero likes to do is open with mutalisks and then go into lurkers. What are the advantages of lurkers over hydra/muta? It seems that it will defend well against any early types of attack, but may be vulnerable to harrassment. As well, as I figure and as you once told me, it forces the Zerg to play defensively and try to get a 4th, but otherwise give up a lot of map control. If so, why is it that hero prefers opening with lurkers every game? What are it's benefits? I'm thinking you may get faster upgrades, faster hive and/or better economy. Also 9 pool vs 9 overpool vs 12 hatch drone and mining efficiency tests as well as comparison tests to protoss responses to seeing those builds (ie nexus first, 2 cannons first, etc) and probe and mining efficiency rates, is it really that big of a difference from an overpool that just serves to deny scouts and a 12 hatch? I will should probably test it. Just some questions I felt like asking...  get on iccup at 7 PM PST ;D | ||
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