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Absolutely, I think a great way to start is doing episodic tutorials on the absolute basics of the game, then maybe move into common build orders and transitions, and then after building up a base start a day9 daily kind of thing with a live stream. Then newcomers can first watch the original recorded episodes and start following the show afterwards.
Ah yes, that would be cool. 
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On June 29 2011 03:50 Ribbon wrote:
I actually go 2 base hydra into 3 base hydra. I'm not saying "one base hydra is a good build". It's not. I'm saying you should do it until you feel you can't do it any better, then improve the build to make it more complicated. Once you've got 1a2a5sh down and you're not getting supply blocked or anything, you change your build so that so FE and go 1a2a3a4sh5sh. Once I feel I've mastered that, I'll add another lair of complexity (lurker contain, probably), and on and on and on. Eventually, if I play enough to feel comfortable in my mechanics, I'll take up a pro level build.
You don't do it because it's good, you do it because it's simple. It's easier to learn starcraft one thing at a time, and once you've mastered one thing, do another. When you can look at a replay, and honestly go "I did nothing wrong, I only lost because my build sucked and not because I executed it perfectly", you can improve the build.
seriously dude, what kind of advice is this? It doesn't matter how well you can mass hydras off 2 hatch and all in, you will NEVER go anywhere. As other people have said, all you are doing is slowing down your own learning process. You don't start by doing retarded builds, you start with a general build (1 rax FE, 3 hatch into 5 base, forge FE, etc) and then improve your mechanics while doing that. That way in addition to learning how to macro and multitask, information you glean from watching pro games is actually relevant.
There is a nice thread with a whole bunch of practice maps made by LML. Go find them, open up Fighting Spirit and practice a build. Do nothing but macro as well and as fast as you can, try and keep your minerals below 400-500, and reset whenever you fuck up. You will improve a hell of a lot faster than you will by doing 1 hatch hydra all ins.
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On June 29 2011 04:07 djbhINDI wrote:
Guys, I think that it was kinda proven that GOOD mechanics > REGULAR strategy by Root.Destiny going mass queens -> Platinum. Yes, he is a pro, but even the dumbest of us do not go mass queen ( or mass hydra in SCBW). But whatever the actual outcome is, LOOK AT THE TOPIC HEAD. This thread is about a guide for SC2 -> BW, NOT a debate over Mechanics v. Strategy. The reason I'm bringing this up is because the last 10 posts or so, while their content is good, are not sticking at all to the topic at hand.
Actually, I think they're quite relevant to the topic at hand. What I've gotten from this discussion is that, in SC2, you can get to Platinum on mechanics alone, even if you're using a shit build that would get you wrecked 100% of the time against a decent player.
In BW, that's true, too. There is a certain level on the iCCup ladder that you can get to by relying on mechanics alone (sticking to four principles: constantly producing probes, constantly producing units, keeping money low, not getting supply blocked). You can get to this point even if you use shit builds like 4 hatch before pool and 1 base 4 rax and 1hatch muta.
The lesson here is that, in BW, that point is low D. If you always do shitty builds, I doubt you're going to consistently stay above 1500. In other words, if you want to get good at BW, you can't just rely on those four principles of macro and hope that you get a lot of wins. You need to go to liquipedia, look up solid build orders for each of the three matchups that you play, and learn them.
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On June 29 2011 07:18 ZeroChrome wrote:Show nested quote +On June 29 2011 03:50 Ribbon wrote:
I actually go 2 base hydra into 3 base hydra. I'm not saying "one base hydra is a good build". It's not. I'm saying you should do it until you feel you can't do it any better, then improve the build to make it more complicated. Once you've got 1a2a5sh down and you're not getting supply blocked or anything, you change your build so that so FE and go 1a2a3a4sh5sh. Once I feel I've mastered that, I'll add another lair of complexity (lurker contain, probably), and on and on and on. Eventually, if I play enough to feel comfortable in my mechanics, I'll take up a pro level build.
You don't do it because it's good, you do it because it's simple. It's easier to learn starcraft one thing at a time, and once you've mastered one thing, do another. When you can look at a replay, and honestly go "I did nothing wrong, I only lost because my build sucked and not because I executed it perfectly", you can improve the build.
seriously dude, what kind of advice is this? It doesn't matter how well you can mass hydras off 2 hatch and all in, you will NEVER go anywhere. As other people have said, all you are doing is slowing down your own learning process.
It's pro advice.
From the mass queen VOD
Destiny (Paraphrased): If you're below diamond and you're asking for lessons, this is how are lessons are going to go. I'm going to say "Here, try this simple one-base build" like one-base roach. And once you feel like you can't do it any better, I'll say "Now make it a little more complicated; add in an expansion". And if you do that well, you'll be in diamond, and then we can start talking about strategy.
I swapped out the word "Roach" and replaced it with "Hydra".
Day[9] takes I guess a more middle of the road view, but is also about mastering one thing before doing another. He tells you to do the "right" build but only focus on making the right buildings. And once you're done with that, start focusing on maintaining constant unit production. Or something along those lines.
This isn't even really a "mechanics vs strategy" thing. My belief is that you should focus on mechanics, and then start focusing on strategy, rather than trying to learn everything all at once. I spent like a week just focusing on not looking at my base (and using hotkeys) after Day[9]'s mechanics daily, and it gold me out of gold.
Why does it apply to SC2 and not BW?
You don't start by doing retarded builds, you start with a general build (1 rax FE, 3 hatch into 5 base, forge FE, etc) and then improve your mechanics while doing that. That way in addition to learning how to macro and multitask, information you glean from watching pro games is actually relevant.
You say "start with a general build and work from there"
I say "start with a simple build and work from there".
It's actually not that big of a difference, I think.
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On June 29 2011 07:56 Ribbon wrote:Show nested quote +On June 29 2011 07:18 ZeroChrome wrote:On June 29 2011 03:50 Ribbon wrote:
I actually go 2 base hydra into 3 base hydra. I'm not saying "one base hydra is a good build". It's not. I'm saying you should do it until you feel you can't do it any better, then improve the build to make it more complicated. Once you've got 1a2a5sh down and you're not getting supply blocked or anything, you change your build so that so FE and go 1a2a3a4sh5sh. Once I feel I've mastered that, I'll add another lair of complexity (lurker contain, probably), and on and on and on. Eventually, if I play enough to feel comfortable in my mechanics, I'll take up a pro level build.
You don't do it because it's good, you do it because it's simple. It's easier to learn starcraft one thing at a time, and once you've mastered one thing, do another. When you can look at a replay, and honestly go "I did nothing wrong, I only lost because my build sucked and not because I executed it perfectly", you can improve the build.
seriously dude, what kind of advice is this? It doesn't matter how well you can mass hydras off 2 hatch and all in, you will NEVER go anywhere. As other people have said, all you are doing is slowing down your own learning process. It's pro advice. From the mass queen VOD Destiny (Paraphrased): If you're below diamond and you're asking for lessons, this is how are lessons are going to go. I'm going to say "Here, try this simple one-base build" like one-base roach. And once you feel like you can't do it any better, I'll say "Now make it a little more complicated; add in an expansion". And if you do that well, you'll be in diamond, and then we can start talking about strategy. I swapped out the word "Roach" and replaced it with "Hydra". Day[9] takes I guess a more middle of the road view, but is also about mastering one thing before doing another. He tells you to do the "right" build but only focus on making the right buildings. And once you're done with that, start focusing on maintaining constant unit production. Or something along those lines. This isn't even really a "mechanics vs strategy" thing. My belief is that you should focus on mechanics, and then start focusing on strategy, rather than trying to learn everything all at once. I spent like a week just focusing on not looking at my base (and using hotkeys) after Day[9]'s mechanics daily, and it gold me out of gold. Why does it apply to SC2 and not BW? Show nested quote +You don't start by doing retarded builds, you start with a general build (1 rax FE, 3 hatch into 5 base, forge FE, etc) and then improve your mechanics while doing that. That way in addition to learning how to macro and multitask, information you glean from watching pro games is actually relevant. You say "start with a general build and work from there" I say "start with a simple build and work from there". It's actually not that big of a difference, I think.
1 rax FE is not a difficult build. Neither is forge FE. They are both simple, and yet are also the most effective choices for all players. You are giving basic pro strategies way too much credit.
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On June 29 2011 08:00 ZeroChrome wrote:Show nested quote +On June 29 2011 07:56 Ribbon wrote:On June 29 2011 07:18 ZeroChrome wrote:On June 29 2011 03:50 Ribbon wrote:
I actually go 2 base hydra into 3 base hydra. I'm not saying "one base hydra is a good build". It's not. I'm saying you should do it until you feel you can't do it any better, then improve the build to make it more complicated. Once you've got 1a2a5sh down and you're not getting supply blocked or anything, you change your build so that so FE and go 1a2a3a4sh5sh. Once I feel I've mastered that, I'll add another lair of complexity (lurker contain, probably), and on and on and on. Eventually, if I play enough to feel comfortable in my mechanics, I'll take up a pro level build.
You don't do it because it's good, you do it because it's simple. It's easier to learn starcraft one thing at a time, and once you've mastered one thing, do another. When you can look at a replay, and honestly go "I did nothing wrong, I only lost because my build sucked and not because I executed it perfectly", you can improve the build.
seriously dude, what kind of advice is this? It doesn't matter how well you can mass hydras off 2 hatch and all in, you will NEVER go anywhere. As other people have said, all you are doing is slowing down your own learning process. It's pro advice. From the mass queen VOD Destiny (Paraphrased): If you're below diamond and you're asking for lessons, this is how are lessons are going to go. I'm going to say "Here, try this simple one-base build" like one-base roach. And once you feel like you can't do it any better, I'll say "Now make it a little more complicated; add in an expansion". And if you do that well, you'll be in diamond, and then we can start talking about strategy. I swapped out the word "Roach" and replaced it with "Hydra". Day[9] takes I guess a more middle of the road view, but is also about mastering one thing before doing another. He tells you to do the "right" build but only focus on making the right buildings. And once you're done with that, start focusing on maintaining constant unit production. Or something along those lines. This isn't even really a "mechanics vs strategy" thing. My belief is that you should focus on mechanics, and then start focusing on strategy, rather than trying to learn everything all at once. I spent like a week just focusing on not looking at my base (and using hotkeys) after Day[9]'s mechanics daily, and it gold me out of gold. Why does it apply to SC2 and not BW? You don't start by doing retarded builds, you start with a general build (1 rax FE, 3 hatch into 5 base, forge FE, etc) and then improve your mechanics while doing that. That way in addition to learning how to macro and multitask, information you glean from watching pro games is actually relevant. You say "start with a general build and work from there" I say "start with a simple build and work from there". It's actually not that big of a difference, I think. 1 rax FE is not a difficult build. Neither is forge FE. They are both simple, and yet are also the most effective choices for all players. You are giving basic pro strategies way too much credit.
Maybe you can just stay off ICCUP entirely until you've mastered "making stuff on one base" and have moved to "making stuff off two bases", and play a bunch of games against the computer just practicing your build.
I probably shouldn't have used Zerg as an example, because BW Zerg has the easiest macro of both games. Maybe Protoss just practicing maintaining constant probe production, not getting supply-blocked, and making gateway units off once base. And then once he's got that down, he can go forge FE, make probes out of two Nexi, and make gateway units out of the right number of gateways. And when he's got THAT down, he can start getting upgrades and go on ICCUP.
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As an SC2 player who's been trying out BW, I think it would be helpful to include tips on how to set up your hotkeys, how to move/control large armies effectively (this was really hard as zerg especially), and mechanical things like that, since that's really the hard part of the switch. I can learn strategies and build orders from liquipedia and by watching games, the difficulty is in the mechanical change.
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On June 29 2011 03:50 Ribbon wrote:Show nested quote +On June 29 2011 00:39 Chef wrote:....Yes? If you have better mechanics, you can win with a worse build. That's my point. 60 APM and mass Hydra is better than 30 APM and pro builds. I think you're confusing strategy with build orders. If you have good mechanics but keep suiciding your units all the time for nothing ...Then you don't actually have good mechanics, do you?
Mechanics are execution right (I believe you said this)? You can have the best mechanics in the world, if you attack into a fortified position with your 1 base hydra because you don't know how to do anything else, then you will lose every game. If you see a fortified position you have to react with either tech or expanding. Those decisions don't have anything to do with mechanics. Suicidal units doesn't necessarily mean 1a. It means engaging in battles (microed well or not) in which you do not trade units efficiently.
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Ok. One has been playing BW for 4 months and I have been playing BW for about a year and a half and we are both about the same level. He's C and I'm C-... we go about 50/50 (+he ladders much more then me :p). Excuses aside... I spent over a year of the time playing with no build order... just trying to vaguely mimic what the pros do (I watched pro vods every day). I leave clan wD on west where I used to play alot and come to iccup where I assume I'm gonna be a C+ player and instead get stuck in D+.
The difference? I spent a huge amount of time not learning... just aimlessly trying to do shit that resembles what the pros do while building my mechanics. But as many excellent BW players have said (such as Ver)... mechanics are inherent in builds. You learn them together since each build requires careful maintenance to perform it well. I don't know why you are so vigilant with your belief since so many experienced players disagree with you (troll?).
+ your overreacting to what destiny said. I mean I could say "Oh Jaedong could beat every player on iccup with 12 hat into 2 hatch muta... I'm going to do that every single game no matter what and not pay attention to any strategy until I can pull such a thing off." For god sake learn strategy and mechanics together or your just wasting your time.
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BTW two things I did that were helpful when I was just starting out. During the early game go back and fourth between clicking on the cc and the mins in order to get used to the distance between them (making pulling scv's to mine a much faster process I shit u not). Also going into notepad and practicing ur hotkeys is a good way to learn them quickly.
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As a Zerg player, the advice I would give to anyone is to have paper clued to the side of your monitor to constantly reminds you to "produce overlord", "remember to macro" and "follow the hotkeys"
Everyone have different hotkey setup to suit their own needs. Just keep on playing and you'll find your very own hotkey setup optimal to you, that takes the least amount of time to do things. Once you have found your optimal hotkeys (after 30 games or so), you should write them down and worship them like a religion. Once you are able to comfortably use the hotkey, then its macro time. Make sure that you utilize EVERY single larvaes you have on each hatch and try getting the hatchery timing right.
Hatchery Timing: there will be a time when after the initial push/attack/build order completes AND that you find yourself to be using all the available larvaes from your hatheries, you will have a large sum of money left over, so try getting the hatchery timing right so that you can produce with the extra larvaes into a unit and keeping your money low.
Another thing to add is to make sure you've got the right worker/unit combinations such as maintaining map presence and have a healthy economy. This is the reason why Zerg need an extra base because it is very difficult to both of that. But the timing of producing drones only and other attacking units is crucial that will be able to develop through playing and game sense.
This is pretty much the hardest part of being a Zerg player as for mid-game play because if you can't do the balance out the worker/unit combinations, you will fall for late game (because of bad econ) or fail against timing pushes (that is you have less unit to defend).
REMEMBER only until you get the timing right with your hatcheries and drone production timing right, you will start taking care of your micro. Otherwise, you should be able to get to D+ with no problem by following above.
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Also forget all that negative shit about how bad it is to "play like a robot". You want to execute ur builds perfectly and have a preconceived game-plan that takes into account the variate of things your opponents can do.
Trust me there is nothing more satisfying than building for yourself an effective and consistent method to dismantle your opponent.
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On June 29 2011 09:51 puppykiller wrote:
The difference? I spent a huge amount of time not learning... just aimlessly trying to do shit that resembles what the pros do while building my mechanics. But as many excellent BW players have said (such as Ver)... mechanics are inherent in builds. You learn them together since each build requires careful maintenance to perform it well. I don't know why you are so vigilant with your belief since so many experienced players disagree with you (troll?).
Personal experience. I tried learning strategies, and I was an abject failure.
Then I played SC2, during which I was exposed to the concept of mechanics mechanics mechanics, and I brought that mindset back to me when I started playing BW again, to notably better results.
I dunno. Maybe I gained a game sense in SC2 that carries over to BW more than I think it does. Maybe I'm just weird. I think I went from one extreme (strategy only!) to the other (mechanics only!). Bluh. Whatever. I suppose I shouldn't talk, because I'm terribad at both games. I'll just stick to throwing money in holes.
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On June 29 2011 12:10 Ribbon wrote:Show nested quote +On June 29 2011 09:51 puppykiller wrote:
The difference? I spent a huge amount of time not learning... just aimlessly trying to do shit that resembles what the pros do while building my mechanics. But as many excellent BW players have said (such as Ver)... mechanics are inherent in builds. You learn them together since each build requires careful maintenance to perform it well. I don't know why you are so vigilant with your belief since so many experienced players disagree with you (troll?). Personal experience. I tried learning strategies, and I was an abject failure. Then I played SC2, during which I was exposed to the concept of mechanics mechanics mechanics, and I brought that mindset back to me when I started playing BW again, to notably better results. I dunno. Maybe I gained a game sense in SC2 that carries over to BW more than I think it does. Maybe I'm just weird. I think I went from one extreme (strategy only!) to the other (mechanics only!). Bluh. Whatever. I suppose I shouldn't talk, because I'm terribad at both games. I'll just stick to throwing money in holes.
Thanks for throwing money in the hole! Remind me of this incase i ever try to be mean to you lol. But seriusly if you want to get good just come online more. Play like the rest of us so u dont have to be one of those guys who has to convince people they know what there talking about without anything to back it up.
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On June 29 2011 08:59 Ribbon wrote:Show nested quote +On June 29 2011 08:00 ZeroChrome wrote:On June 29 2011 07:56 Ribbon wrote:On June 29 2011 07:18 ZeroChrome wrote:On June 29 2011 03:50 Ribbon wrote:
I actually go 2 base hydra into 3 base hydra. I'm not saying "one base hydra is a good build". It's not. I'm saying you should do it until you feel you can't do it any better, then improve the build to make it more complicated. Once you've got 1a2a5sh down and you're not getting supply blocked or anything, you change your build so that so FE and go 1a2a3a4sh5sh. Once I feel I've mastered that, I'll add another lair of complexity (lurker contain, probably), and on and on and on. Eventually, if I play enough to feel comfortable in my mechanics, I'll take up a pro level build.
You don't do it because it's good, you do it because it's simple. It's easier to learn starcraft one thing at a time, and once you've mastered one thing, do another. When you can look at a replay, and honestly go "I did nothing wrong, I only lost because my build sucked and not because I executed it perfectly", you can improve the build.
seriously dude, what kind of advice is this? It doesn't matter how well you can mass hydras off 2 hatch and all in, you will NEVER go anywhere. As other people have said, all you are doing is slowing down your own learning process. It's pro advice. From the mass queen VOD Destiny (Paraphrased): If you're below diamond and you're asking for lessons, this is how are lessons are going to go. I'm going to say "Here, try this simple one-base build" like one-base roach. And once you feel like you can't do it any better, I'll say "Now make it a little more complicated; add in an expansion". And if you do that well, you'll be in diamond, and then we can start talking about strategy. I swapped out the word "Roach" and replaced it with "Hydra". Day[9] takes I guess a more middle of the road view, but is also about mastering one thing before doing another. He tells you to do the "right" build but only focus on making the right buildings. And once you're done with that, start focusing on maintaining constant unit production. Or something along those lines. This isn't even really a "mechanics vs strategy" thing. My belief is that you should focus on mechanics, and then start focusing on strategy, rather than trying to learn everything all at once. I spent like a week just focusing on not looking at my base (and using hotkeys) after Day[9]'s mechanics daily, and it gold me out of gold. Why does it apply to SC2 and not BW? You don't start by doing retarded builds, you start with a general build (1 rax FE, 3 hatch into 5 base, forge FE, etc) and then improve your mechanics while doing that. That way in addition to learning how to macro and multitask, information you glean from watching pro games is actually relevant. You say "start with a general build and work from there" I say "start with a simple build and work from there". It's actually not that big of a difference, I think. 1 rax FE is not a difficult build. Neither is forge FE. They are both simple, and yet are also the most effective choices for all players. You are giving basic pro strategies way too much credit. Maybe you can just stay off ICCUP entirely until you've mastered "making stuff on one base" and have moved to "making stuff off two bases", and play a bunch of games against the computer just practicing your build. I probably shouldn't have used Zerg as an example, because BW Zerg has the easiest macro of both games. Maybe Protoss just practicing maintaining constant probe production, not getting supply-blocked, and making gateway units off once base. And then once he's got that down, he can go forge FE, make probes out of two Nexi, and make gateway units out of the right number of gateways. And when he's got THAT down, he can start getting upgrades and go on ICCUP.
You have too much of an SC2 perspective. Sure, your method of training would be effective in the tiered league system of SC2. However this is BW. You can't just learn stuff in stages, you HAVE to jump in head first. 'Learning' how to macro off of 1 base in PvZ is totally useless because in a real game you would never ever be in a situation where it would be required. The best way to improve is to focus on a single, solid build, and learn from there. Here is a quote from Ver's guide on how to improve:
First, one build at a time. Until you can get one build down subconsciously, don't even bother with anything else, you'll just make it worse. Thus it is of great importance that you choose a good build to emulate.
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I don't see the point in restricting yourself to a build that you are never going to use once you know something about the game. What is the point? The build is both bad and useless and teaches you nothing about the game either strategically or mechanically.
In my opinion you either try to learn everything at once or you try to learn nothing and first just get used to the game.
Either try to do everything right right away and develop all the proper habits and play all the proper strategies right away. Or just go do random 3vs3 hunters games for 200 games and then go to 1vs1 using the first method.
Obviously one is going to be more successful than the other.
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On June 29 2011 12:20 ZeroChrome wrote:Show nested quote +On June 29 2011 08:59 Ribbon wrote:On June 29 2011 08:00 ZeroChrome wrote:On June 29 2011 07:56 Ribbon wrote:On June 29 2011 07:18 ZeroChrome wrote:On June 29 2011 03:50 Ribbon wrote:
I actually go 2 base hydra into 3 base hydra. I'm not saying "one base hydra is a good build". It's not. I'm saying you should do it until you feel you can't do it any better, then improve the build to make it more complicated. Once you've got 1a2a5sh down and you're not getting supply blocked or anything, you change your build so that so FE and go 1a2a3a4sh5sh. Once I feel I've mastered that, I'll add another lair of complexity (lurker contain, probably), and on and on and on. Eventually, if I play enough to feel comfortable in my mechanics, I'll take up a pro level build.
You don't do it because it's good, you do it because it's simple. It's easier to learn starcraft one thing at a time, and once you've mastered one thing, do another. When you can look at a replay, and honestly go "I did nothing wrong, I only lost because my build sucked and not because I executed it perfectly", you can improve the build.
seriously dude, what kind of advice is this? It doesn't matter how well you can mass hydras off 2 hatch and all in, you will NEVER go anywhere. As other people have said, all you are doing is slowing down your own learning process. It's pro advice. From the mass queen VOD Destiny (Paraphrased): If you're below diamond and you're asking for lessons, this is how are lessons are going to go. I'm going to say "Here, try this simple one-base build" like one-base roach. And once you feel like you can't do it any better, I'll say "Now make it a little more complicated; add in an expansion". And if you do that well, you'll be in diamond, and then we can start talking about strategy. I swapped out the word "Roach" and replaced it with "Hydra". Day[9] takes I guess a more middle of the road view, but is also about mastering one thing before doing another. He tells you to do the "right" build but only focus on making the right buildings. And once you're done with that, start focusing on maintaining constant unit production. Or something along those lines. This isn't even really a "mechanics vs strategy" thing. My belief is that you should focus on mechanics, and then start focusing on strategy, rather than trying to learn everything all at once. I spent like a week just focusing on not looking at my base (and using hotkeys) after Day[9]'s mechanics daily, and it gold me out of gold. Why does it apply to SC2 and not BW? You don't start by doing retarded builds, you start with a general build (1 rax FE, 3 hatch into 5 base, forge FE, etc) and then improve your mechanics while doing that. That way in addition to learning how to macro and multitask, information you glean from watching pro games is actually relevant. You say "start with a general build and work from there" I say "start with a simple build and work from there". It's actually not that big of a difference, I think. 1 rax FE is not a difficult build. Neither is forge FE. They are both simple, and yet are also the most effective choices for all players. You are giving basic pro strategies way too much credit. Maybe you can just stay off ICCUP entirely until you've mastered "making stuff on one base" and have moved to "making stuff off two bases", and play a bunch of games against the computer just practicing your build. I probably shouldn't have used Zerg as an example, because BW Zerg has the easiest macro of both games. Maybe Protoss just practicing maintaining constant probe production, not getting supply-blocked, and making gateway units off once base. And then once he's got that down, he can go forge FE, make probes out of two Nexi, and make gateway units out of the right number of gateways. And when he's got THAT down, he can start getting upgrades and go on ICCUP. You have too much of an SC2 perspective. Sure, your method of training would be effective in the tiered league system of SC2. However this is BW.
That has nothing to do with BW vs SC2, it's ICCUP vs Bnet. ICCUP is not even the tiniest bit noob-friendly. It's sink or swim, and most people sink 
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On June 29 2011 12:58 Ribbon wrote:Show nested quote +On June 29 2011 12:20 ZeroChrome wrote:On June 29 2011 08:59 Ribbon wrote:On June 29 2011 08:00 ZeroChrome wrote:On June 29 2011 07:56 Ribbon wrote:On June 29 2011 07:18 ZeroChrome wrote:On June 29 2011 03:50 Ribbon wrote:
I actually go 2 base hydra into 3 base hydra. I'm not saying "one base hydra is a good build". It's not. I'm saying you should do it until you feel you can't do it any better, then improve the build to make it more complicated. Once you've got 1a2a5sh down and you're not getting supply blocked or anything, you change your build so that so FE and go 1a2a3a4sh5sh. Once I feel I've mastered that, I'll add another lair of complexity (lurker contain, probably), and on and on and on. Eventually, if I play enough to feel comfortable in my mechanics, I'll take up a pro level build.
You don't do it because it's good, you do it because it's simple. It's easier to learn starcraft one thing at a time, and once you've mastered one thing, do another. When you can look at a replay, and honestly go "I did nothing wrong, I only lost because my build sucked and not because I executed it perfectly", you can improve the build.
seriously dude, what kind of advice is this? It doesn't matter how well you can mass hydras off 2 hatch and all in, you will NEVER go anywhere. As other people have said, all you are doing is slowing down your own learning process. It's pro advice. From the mass queen VOD Destiny (Paraphrased): If you're below diamond and you're asking for lessons, this is how are lessons are going to go. I'm going to say "Here, try this simple one-base build" like one-base roach. And once you feel like you can't do it any better, I'll say "Now make it a little more complicated; add in an expansion". And if you do that well, you'll be in diamond, and then we can start talking about strategy. I swapped out the word "Roach" and replaced it with "Hydra". Day[9] takes I guess a more middle of the road view, but is also about mastering one thing before doing another. He tells you to do the "right" build but only focus on making the right buildings. And once you're done with that, start focusing on maintaining constant unit production. Or something along those lines. This isn't even really a "mechanics vs strategy" thing. My belief is that you should focus on mechanics, and then start focusing on strategy, rather than trying to learn everything all at once. I spent like a week just focusing on not looking at my base (and using hotkeys) after Day[9]'s mechanics daily, and it gold me out of gold. Why does it apply to SC2 and not BW? You don't start by doing retarded builds, you start with a general build (1 rax FE, 3 hatch into 5 base, forge FE, etc) and then improve your mechanics while doing that. That way in addition to learning how to macro and multitask, information you glean from watching pro games is actually relevant. You say "start with a general build and work from there" I say "start with a simple build and work from there". It's actually not that big of a difference, I think. 1 rax FE is not a difficult build. Neither is forge FE. They are both simple, and yet are also the most effective choices for all players. You are giving basic pro strategies way too much credit. Maybe you can just stay off ICCUP entirely until you've mastered "making stuff on one base" and have moved to "making stuff off two bases", and play a bunch of games against the computer just practicing your build. I probably shouldn't have used Zerg as an example, because BW Zerg has the easiest macro of both games. Maybe Protoss just practicing maintaining constant probe production, not getting supply-blocked, and making gateway units off once base. And then once he's got that down, he can go forge FE, make probes out of two Nexi, and make gateway units out of the right number of gateways. And when he's got THAT down, he can start getting upgrades and go on ICCUP. You have too much of an SC2 perspective. Sure, your method of training would be effective in the tiered league system of SC2. However this is BW. That has nothing to do with BW vs SC2, it's ICCUP vs Bnet. ICCUP is not even the tiniest bit noob-friendly. It's sink or swim, and most people sink
Ladder can be hostile.. but there a lots of really inexperienced players... you just have to make friends with them and they will practice with you. Also other players will help you. Come to op teamliquid ^^
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On June 29 2011 14:29 puppykiller wrote:Show nested quote +On June 29 2011 12:58 Ribbon wrote:On June 29 2011 12:20 ZeroChrome wrote:On June 29 2011 08:59 Ribbon wrote:On June 29 2011 08:00 ZeroChrome wrote:On June 29 2011 07:56 Ribbon wrote:On June 29 2011 07:18 ZeroChrome wrote:On June 29 2011 03:50 Ribbon wrote:
I actually go 2 base hydra into 3 base hydra. I'm not saying "one base hydra is a good build". It's not. I'm saying you should do it until you feel you can't do it any better, then improve the build to make it more complicated. Once you've got 1a2a5sh down and you're not getting supply blocked or anything, you change your build so that so FE and go 1a2a3a4sh5sh. Once I feel I've mastered that, I'll add another lair of complexity (lurker contain, probably), and on and on and on. Eventually, if I play enough to feel comfortable in my mechanics, I'll take up a pro level build.
You don't do it because it's good, you do it because it's simple. It's easier to learn starcraft one thing at a time, and once you've mastered one thing, do another. When you can look at a replay, and honestly go "I did nothing wrong, I only lost because my build sucked and not because I executed it perfectly", you can improve the build.
seriously dude, what kind of advice is this? It doesn't matter how well you can mass hydras off 2 hatch and all in, you will NEVER go anywhere. As other people have said, all you are doing is slowing down your own learning process. It's pro advice. From the mass queen VOD Destiny (Paraphrased): If you're below diamond and you're asking for lessons, this is how are lessons are going to go. I'm going to say "Here, try this simple one-base build" like one-base roach. And once you feel like you can't do it any better, I'll say "Now make it a little more complicated; add in an expansion". And if you do that well, you'll be in diamond, and then we can start talking about strategy. I swapped out the word "Roach" and replaced it with "Hydra". Day[9] takes I guess a more middle of the road view, but is also about mastering one thing before doing another. He tells you to do the "right" build but only focus on making the right buildings. And once you're done with that, start focusing on maintaining constant unit production. Or something along those lines. This isn't even really a "mechanics vs strategy" thing. My belief is that you should focus on mechanics, and then start focusing on strategy, rather than trying to learn everything all at once. I spent like a week just focusing on not looking at my base (and using hotkeys) after Day[9]'s mechanics daily, and it gold me out of gold. Why does it apply to SC2 and not BW? You don't start by doing retarded builds, you start with a general build (1 rax FE, 3 hatch into 5 base, forge FE, etc) and then improve your mechanics while doing that. That way in addition to learning how to macro and multitask, information you glean from watching pro games is actually relevant. You say "start with a general build and work from there" I say "start with a simple build and work from there". It's actually not that big of a difference, I think. 1 rax FE is not a difficult build. Neither is forge FE. They are both simple, and yet are also the most effective choices for all players. You are giving basic pro strategies way too much credit. Maybe you can just stay off ICCUP entirely until you've mastered "making stuff on one base" and have moved to "making stuff off two bases", and play a bunch of games against the computer just practicing your build. I probably shouldn't have used Zerg as an example, because BW Zerg has the easiest macro of both games. Maybe Protoss just practicing maintaining constant probe production, not getting supply-blocked, and making gateway units off once base. And then once he's got that down, he can go forge FE, make probes out of two Nexi, and make gateway units out of the right number of gateways. And when he's got THAT down, he can start getting upgrades and go on ICCUP. You have too much of an SC2 perspective. Sure, your method of training would be effective in the tiered league system of SC2. However this is BW. That has nothing to do with BW vs SC2, it's ICCUP vs Bnet. ICCUP is not even the tiniest bit noob-friendly. It's sink or swim, and most people sink Ladder can be hostile.. but there a lots of really inexperienced players... you just have to make friends with them and they will practice with you. Also other players will help you. Come to op teamliquid ^^
I'm technically in the ICCUP Training Program clan!
Though, honestly, it never helped me much , because I never heard the phrase I needed to hear: You have 30 APM and you're floating a small fortune.
What are the simplest non-silly builds for each matchup, to start with?
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TvZ = 1 rax FE into 9 minute push
TvP = Siege expand into stuff (not a Terran )
TvT = Stuff...
ZvT = 3 Hatch Muta into 3rd base into Hive
ZvP = 3 base Spire into 5 hatch hydra OR 5 hatch before gas OR turtle with lurker ling on 4 base 6 hatcheries (which I don't have the build order for)
*3 base Spire into 5 hatch hydra was standard, might be worth it to learn the 5 hatch before gas now
ZvZ = 12pool gas or 9pool gas
PvT = 2 gate Obs
PvP = 2 gate reaver/Obs?
PvZ = +1 Speedlot
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EPT
