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On June 30 2011 06:46 Ribbon wrote:Both games are balanced at a pro level (Edit: And on Pro Maps. I imagine BW's balance is screwy on the official Blizzard ladder maps no one plays). People made charts and stuff for thousands of pro SC2 games and found all matchups balanced since April. No one needs to do that for BW because it's been around so long that the fact of it's balance is apparent and obvious to all. Both games have, by design, lots of things that feel like OP bullshit, but if you can't counter it with your own race's OP BS, then you're just not good enough. Deal with it. Vent if you must (lord knows I do), but deal with it and play again. In BW ZvP, a Dark Templar can walk into your mineral line and kill all your drones without an alert sound. That's ludicrous. Deal with it and pay attention to your bases. In SC2 ZvP, a speed overlord with upgraded banelings can fly over your mineral lines, and by the time the alert sounds the Zerg will score 30 worker kills. Deal with it and pay attention to your minimap. BW ZvT: Dark Swarm makes units immune to nearly all terran units. L2Micro. SC2 ZvT: A player can marauder drop your main and kill all your tech super-fast while attacking on the other side of the map. L2Multitask. BW: Lurkers can kill infinity marines if the Terran has bad micro SC2: Infestors and Banelings can kill nigh-infinity marines if the Terran doesn't split. BW: Reaver drops SC2: Blue flame hellion drops (or baneling drops) BW: "Vultures have zero build time and are free" SC2: "Banshees are ranged DTs that fly" BW: Probes can delay a hatch for like ten minutes because drone AI keeps forgetting about them SC2: "You're protoss. You have buildings better than my race" Etc etc etc. Learn to deal with it and win. Both games are balanced, in large part thanks to the maps they're played on in tournaments, and on private ladders like ICCUP (BW) and NTBL (SC2). No whining. No tears. No regrets. Go forth and win with your imba units, as I go forth and win with mine.
I want to respond to this but It's just gonna derail the thread into an sc2 vs BW argument about which game takes more skill.
Now get the fuck online and play. Experience cures misconceptions (some of these comparisons dont really function the way you think they do), so if you... and yes I mean you Ribbon, don't play at-least 10 games today.... i'm not going to take you seriously anymore and just assume your hobby is not sc but instead whining.
op Sgs and op teamliquid are great channels for noobs. Sgs actually has scheduled practice times and is filled with players E- to C-. There mission is to help people reach C- level.
Who cares if you cant find people the second you get online, you will find them with a little bit of effort (much less effort than it actually takes to improve in either sc2 or BW). If you are completely unable to find anyone to play with... msg me, I play alot on puppy(OD).
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On June 30 2011 07:40 puppykiller wrote:Show nested quote +On June 30 2011 06:46 Ribbon wrote:Both games are balanced at a pro level (Edit: And on Pro Maps. I imagine BW's balance is screwy on the official Blizzard ladder maps no one plays). People made charts and stuff for thousands of pro SC2 games and found all matchups balanced since April. No one needs to do that for BW because it's been around so long that the fact of it's balance is apparent and obvious to all. Both games have, by design, lots of things that feel like OP bullshit, but if you can't counter it with your own race's OP BS, then you're just not good enough. Deal with it. Vent if you must (lord knows I do), but deal with it and play again. In BW ZvP, a Dark Templar can walk into your mineral line and kill all your drones without an alert sound. That's ludicrous. Deal with it and pay attention to your bases. In SC2 ZvP, a speed overlord with upgraded banelings can fly over your mineral lines, and by the time the alert sounds the Zerg will score 30 worker kills. Deal with it and pay attention to your minimap. BW ZvT: Dark Swarm makes units immune to nearly all terran units. L2Micro. SC2 ZvT: A player can marauder drop your main and kill all your tech super-fast while attacking on the other side of the map. L2Multitask. BW: Lurkers can kill infinity marines if the Terran has bad micro SC2: Infestors and Banelings can kill nigh-infinity marines if the Terran doesn't split. BW: Reaver drops SC2: Blue flame hellion drops (or baneling drops) BW: "Vultures have zero build time and are free" SC2: "Banshees are ranged DTs that fly" BW: Probes can delay a hatch for like ten minutes because drone AI keeps forgetting about them SC2: "You're protoss. You have buildings better than my race" Etc etc etc. Learn to deal with it and win. Both games are balanced, in large part thanks to the maps they're played on in tournaments, and on private ladders like ICCUP (BW) and NTBL (SC2). No whining. No tears. No regrets. Go forth and win with your imba units, as I go forth and win with mine. I want to respond to this but It's just gonna derail the thread into an sc2 vs BW argument about which game takes more skill. Now get the fuck online and play. Experience cures misconceptions (some of these comparisons dont really function the way you think they do), so if you... and yes I mean you Ribbon, don't play at-least 10 games today.... i'm not going to take you seriously anymore and just assume your hobby is not sc but instead whining. op Sgs and op teamliquid are great channels for noobs. Sgs actually has scheduled practice times and is filled with players E- to C-. There mission is to help people reach C- level. Who cares if you cant find people the second you get online, you will find them with a little bit of effort (much less effort than it actually takes to improve in either sc2 or BW). If you are completely unable to find anyone to play with... msg me, I play alot on puppy(OD).
What?
I'm not whining at all. Nor am I comparing the games. The entire point of my post was "The game is balanced, you're just bad, so shut the fuck up and practice". Which...seems to be your point as well, so I'm confused. I'm not even making comparisons, really, I'm just cherry-picking things I hear noobs whine about, including noobs like me who loathe probes.
What time do you play? I'm usually on 4am EDT.
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On June 29 2011 15:44 Magus wrote:TvZ = 1 rax FE into 9 minute push TvP = Siege expand into stuff (not a Terran  ) TvT = Stuff... ZvT = 3 Hatch Muta into 3rd base into Hive ZvP = 3 base Spire into 5 hatch hydra OR 5 hatch before gas OR turtle with lurker ling on 4 base 6 hatcheries (which I don't have the build order for) *3 base Spire into 5 hatch hydra was standard, might be worth it to learn the 5 hatch before gas now ZvZ = 12pool gas or 9pool gas PvT = 2 gate Obs PvP = 2 gate reaver/Obs? PvZ = +1 Speedlot Is this a good list of standard builds I can run to help my mechanics?
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I think those are pretty standard. I'm doing the PvT and PvP ones, and PvZ going corsair/speedlot.
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Those are all good except for 2 gate obs in PvT.
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I think 2 gate obs is perfectly fine. It is on the safe side, but it allows for a faster third than more greedy builds do.
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If you don't have the ability to open ports on your router (grumble grumble), what's the best way to actually play the goddamn game? I don't see Op Teamliquid in the channel list, and the D channel is...and the ICCUP Training Program clan room is my own little Forever Aloneatorium.
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So ignoring the past few pages...
I think it's also good to have a few anecdotes about pro BW players so the viewer can get attached to certain personalities in the game. To be honest, I played BW from the start but I didn't really like the pro-scene until I saw Boxer, and more importantly, when I started reading about him. LR threads and battle reports and interviews are a great way to pique interest on a personal level.
The pro-scene is what it is in Korea because it's more than the game. What lies beyond becomes equally important, because that's how you maintain your passion.
And as to the game, it also helps to have an ideal, a model to hold up for your standard of play. For example, I am forever inspired when I play Terran because when I watch Flash play, I always hold myself to try to reach his standard. It makes the game more fun (and gives me a good laugh when I get zergling rushed and manage to defend it - I imagine that I'm fighting Kwanro).
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I'm just cherry-picking things I hear noobs whine about, including noobs like me who loathe probes.
Ok just so you stop mentioning it, go overpool ZvP, problems solved. (overpool is by far the best opening to use as a standard in that matchup anyways)
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On June 30 2011 14:54 Ribbon wrote:
If you don't have the ability to open ports on your router (grumble grumble), what's the best way to actually play the goddamn game? I don't see Op Teamliquid in the channel list, and the D channel is...and the ICCUP Training Program clan room is my own little Forever Aloneatorium.
Just type /j op teamliquid on iccup
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And must be told that if one wants to play BW, he must watch proleague! Best thing ever.
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Ok, so I've been a BW player for some time I may have some tips for starters.
Firstly race difficulty for starters:
Easy: Protoss
Medium: Zerg
Hard: Terran
However all 3 races take equally the same amount of difficulty to master(maybe because multitasking matters the most in the end).
I'm pretty low APM player(mostly Protoss) so I have a few builds I use that work even with lower APM.
PvT:
Can be played on high level even with low APM. Just go for 1-2 gate goons into expansion. Build non stop goons until terran expands, then take 3rd. Tech arbiters. Golden rule is 3 gateways for each expansion. That means with 3 saturated bases it's 9 gateways to hold off terran timing push.
PvZ:
Really, really difficult matchup. You should start practicing FE with various alternatives to see which suits you the best:
- FE fast +1 weap, 2/3 gate zealot timing attack
- FE corsair->dt
- FE corsair->reaver
- FE corsair->late +1 zealot/archon push
Tip: storm/dt drops do wonder vs low level zerg players.
PvP:
I don't play it much, but goon + shuttle+reaver into expansion or goon + shuttle+reaver push against expanding protoss is really common.
Easy to win build: zealot rush into fast/proxy dark templars.
ZvP:
Focus on 5 hatch vs expanding protoss into eigher mass hydra, mutas or lurkers.
While lurkers are the safest they don't provide enough harassment options so protoss is usually free to take his 3rd. Also your overlords aren't safe enough.
ZvT:
2 base 3 hatch mutas. Now I find this build difficult do execute for low APM player.
So instead I use 3 hatch lurkers with overlord drops(even before speed) and try to drop lurkers fast into his main. Repeat when he moves out or is low on defense. Meanwhile take more gas bases and tech hive for defilers.
Works fine.
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On June 30 2011 21:01 LastWish wrote:
PvT:
Can be played on high level even with low APM. Just go for 1-2 gate goons into expansion. Build non stop goons until terran expands, then take 3rd. Tech arbiters. Golden rule is 3 gateways for each expansion. That means with 3 saturated bases it's 9 gateways to hold off terran timing push.
Dude, what's the arbiter timing? I'm getting stomped in PvT. Doing 2 gates obs expand and get third base soon, but I'm having trouble fiding a good timing to get arbiter tech. W/O arbiters there is no way to win this mu.
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On June 30 2011 21:12 pedrotrv wrote:Show nested quote +On June 30 2011 21:01 LastWish wrote:
PvT:
Can be played on high level even with low APM. Just go for 1-2 gate goons into expansion. Build non stop goons until terran expands, then take 3rd. Tech arbiters. Golden rule is 3 gateways for each expansion. That means with 3 saturated bases it's 9 gateways to hold off terran timing push.
Dude, what's the arbiter timing? I'm getting stomped in PvT. Doing 2 gates obs expand and get third base soon, but I'm having trouble fiding a good timing to get arbiter tech. W/O arbiters there is no way to win this mu.
Well I suggest getting your arbs before your third base or you can go early third base and get more gateways then trans to arbiters 
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On June 25 2011 07:48 pig-dude wrote:Show nested quote +On June 25 2011 07:06 HornyHerring wrote:
THIS IS NO WAY A TROLLING OR HATING POST!
Just wondering - pure curiousity, why do/would people switch from SC2 to BW? Because it's a game I'm free to play as I wish, not controlled like SC2 and bnet. And it seems better thought-out than SC2. With an SC2 expansion and some patches, we can expect a game as thought-out as BW. Grubby recently mentioned that he liked WC3 not so much without expansion but loved it with the expansion, so indirectly he said that he likes WC3 with expansion more than SC2 now.
With an expansion to be released within a year, I doubt that many players will get back to BW and rather chose to practice SC2 WOL as WOL skills should better transition to HOTS than BW skills to HOTS.
There is no reason not to show some BW to new SC2 players / viewers. But investing effort and time to help people get back?
Maybe some players will try out the original SC game with expansion, but "switch", as the topic suggests? I doubt it. While some maybe voice their intention to try out BW, they will probably don't like how you train goons from 8 gates and get back to SC2.
There will be even a second expansion for SC2. Even if Blizzard messes up HOTS, they still can fix it.
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Between all the game wars and straight bitching and off-topic mess this topic has, it really reminds me of when someone mentioned how nice it would be if TL had a broodwar.temliquid.net or something to that effect.
Seriously, for every 10 SC2 articles, there's one BW one now.
You have to wade through a sea of SC2 games to find any upcoming BW events or streams
Now, even in the forum, every topic has at least 1/3 of it wasted by the same debate with the same people saying the same things.
Annnd...still going to (off topic) keep asking where the KT Violet ribbon went. Is he better now or did I miss something?
On topic?
I think this is a marvelous idea. Best of luck to it and I have just one suggestion. (I'll try and think of more and be helpful by posting later if I do) I would like to see some videos where you either cast over or co-cast with new players. Like a radio show interview except with a player with both of you discussing the game. Similar to Battle.Net attack with the pros.
I can't seem to get back to where I was in Iccup and I've wanted to stream for sometime, so if you need an E/D- player for anything (lol) let me know. I'm there as soon as I can.
Or if you just want any help in general, actually, let me know. I'd love to help out getting BW more established...er...reestablished.
GL HF GG
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United Kingdom1707 Posts
On July 01 2011 00:02 TheGlassface wrote:
On topic?
I think this is a marvelous idea. Best of luck to it and I have just one suggestion. (I'll try and think of more and be helpful by posting later if I do) I would like to see some videos where you either cast over or co-cast with new players. Like a radio show interview except with a player with both of you discussing the game. Similar to Battle.Net attack with the pros.
I can't seem to get back to where I was in Iccup and I've wanted to stream for sometime, so if you need an E/D- player for anything (lol) let me know. I'm there as soon as I can.
Or if you just want any help in general, actually, let me know. I'd love to help out getting BW more established...er...reestablished.
GL HF GG
Thanks for your offer! I'll bear you in mind if I need help. Right now, it's good if lower level players would give me questions, which I can then answer in my videos. I think a lot of people switching over will come into that bracket, and it's good to get as many useful pieces of info out there as possible.
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On July 01 2011 03:00 ImbaTosS wrote:Show nested quote +On July 01 2011 00:02 TheGlassface wrote:
On topic?
I think this is a marvelous idea. Best of luck to it and I have just one suggestion. (I'll try and think of more and be helpful by posting later if I do) I would like to see some videos where you either cast over or co-cast with new players. Like a radio show interview except with a player with both of you discussing the game. Similar to Battle.Net attack with the pros.
I can't seem to get back to where I was in Iccup and I've wanted to stream for sometime, so if you need an E/D- player for anything (lol) let me know. I'm there as soon as I can.
Or if you just want any help in general, actually, let me know. I'd love to help out getting BW more established...er...reestablished.
GL HF GG
Thanks for your offer! I'll bear you in mind if I need help. Right now, it's good if lower level players would give me questions, which I can then answer in my videos. I think a lot of people switching over will come into that bracket, and it's good to get as many useful pieces of info out there as possible.
First things I'd love to see:
1 - Scouting information. Gas timings, what buildings to look for (like academy will most likely translate into bio terran) and how to read a zerg opening (number of hatches, gas timing: what will these translate into?);
2 - Timings in general (eg terran 5 fact push against toss).
I think the other parts of the gameplay will come with lots of practice and study of the liquipedia, but these are so hard to get coming from Sc2 that would be nice to have some pointers from a coach.
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God, I damn myself for not playing SC:BW until SC2. This Game is so frustrating and pleasing at the same time, its amazing ^^
Ontopic: To be honest, I think all needed informations for newcomers are already provided. I got into SC:BW during SC2 Beta and devoured basicly everything SC:BW related in order to emulate it for SC2 (because there was not much Info about it out then).
I went through
- Vers Guide of Improving
- Day[9] Dailies
- Liquipedia (especially the Matchup Guides (PvT/PvZ) and Method Guides like Push Breaking or Zealot Bombing)
- Recommended Threads List here on TL (especially crescendo's PvT Guide)
- a lot of TLPD VOD's
So in order to provide a Guide for Newcomers, the best (at least from my perspective) would be something like a compendium about all these Information Sources instead of reinventing the wheel.
Regards, just another D Scrub on Iccup :>
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You know what would be cool...
A guide detailing what to look for as each race on a map.
For example, if I am protoss what am I looking for on Python? The wide open middle appeals to me and there is a relatively securable third but what builds would suit this map best? What builds are hindered by simply the terrain?
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EPT
