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I think it is important for people coming to SC BW from either watching a lot of SC BW or having played SC2 that strategy is not what wins and loses you games on that level.
SC BW is like chess and SC2 is like poker where in SC2 you worry about what your opponent thinks and how he tries to trick you while in SC BW you worry about not dropping a piece.
In chess you don't worry about what lane to open if either you and your opponent may actually drop a whole piece in the next 10 moves. Opening the proper row may give you a 1/4th pawn advantage. Same is true in SC BW and this makes it different from SC2 where there's a safety net.
Trying to learn strategy at this point is counterproductive because trail and error will deceive you, You just can't decide what strategy is good and what is bad by looking at how the game unfolds.
I think a writeup proposed can't work. It is just too complex and too difficult to just write down. The main thing for SC2 players seems to think differently about the game than they did in SC2. It's all about macro, multitasking, tactics and execution. If execution is a bit off or your opponent doesn't play progamer like builds, all your strategy will be bad. It's like assuming your opponent can't be holding AA in poker because of how he played, but then he has AA anyway. You lose because he is bad and you misapply strategy.
You slowly have to build up this decision tree but first you have to lay the foundations. If you don't know how many dragoons or tanks your opponent has after 5 minutes. You have to develop a solid early game mechanically and tactically first, then get some game sense to actually interpret the game and then you can worry about and apply strategy.
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Wow, I didn't realize how little sense my mechanics-only thing made until someone agreed with it, and now I'm all like "Woah".
On July 01 2011 12:04 Suisen wrote:SC BW is like chess and SC2 is like poker where in SC2 you worry about what your opponent thinks and how he tries to trick you while in SC BW you worry about not dropping a piece.
I feel like this is a little insulting to both games. Mindgames, proxies, hidden tech, etc is all a part of BW, and good scouting reveals a lot more in SC2 than you imply.
In chess you don't worry about what lane to open if either you and your opponent may actually drop a whole piece in the next 10 moves. Opening the proper row may give you a 1/4th pawn advantage. Same is true in SC BW and this makes it different from SC2 where there's a safety net.
Huh?
Trying to learn strategy at this point is counterproductive because trail and error will deceive you, You just can't decide what strategy is good and what is bad by looking at how the game unfolds.
http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft/Main_Page
I think a writeup proposed can't work. It is just too complex and too difficult to just write down. The main thing for SC2 players seems to think differently about the game than they did in SC2. It's all about macro, multitasking, tactics and execution.
Those do exist in SC2, you know. Yes yes, BW is more developed/polished/manly whatever, but it doesn't have a monopoly on these things.
If execution is a bit off or your opponent doesn't play progamer like builds, all your strategy will be bad. It's like assuming your opponent can't be holding AA in poker because of how he played, but then he has AA anyway. You lose because he is bad and you misapply strategy.
Yes, but this is far less applicable to BW than SC2. There's a few people on ICCUP going mass scout, yeah, but the fast majority are doing an attempt at "real" builds, even at the lowest level.
You slowly have to build up this decision tree but first you have to lay the foundations. If you don't know how many dragoons or tanks your opponent has after 5 minutes. You have to develop a solid early game mechanically and tactically first, then get some game sense to actually interpret the game and then you can worry about and apply strategy.
You're aware BW doesn't have an in-game clock, right? How do you develop game sense without going even a simple strategy? You have no benchmarks for timing.
I do maintain that mechanics > strategy, and that people overemphasize strategy because it's the "fun part", but to say strategy doesn't matter at all, in either game, even at low levels, is a little absurd.
On July 01 2011 07:50 Xanatoss wrote:
God, I damn myself for not playing SC:BW until SC2. This Game is so frustrating and pleasing at the same time, its amazing ^^
I've never hated something as full time as I've hated BW. 
Ontopic: To be honest, I think all needed informations for newcomers are already provided. I got into SC:BW during SC2 Beta and devoured basicly everything SC:BW related in order to emulate it for SC2 (because there was not much Info about it out then).
Enh. I don't think much from one game corresponds to the other. If you try and play BW on SC2 or SC2 on BW, it'll be all awkward and gross.
I went through
- Vers Guide of Improving
- Day[9] Dailies
- Liquipedia (especially the Matchup Guides (PvT/PvZ) and Method Guides like Push Breaking or Zealot Bombing)
- Recommended Threads List here on TL (especially crescendo's PvT Guide)
- a lot of TLPD VOD's
I agree with this, though. Even though it's for SC2, Day[9]'s specials on improving your mechanics are the best resource on the topic I've ever seen, and I think even people who play BW exclusively should watch them.
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On July 01 2011 12:50 Ribbon wrote:
I feel like this is a little insulting to both games. Mindgames, proxies, hidden tech, etc is all a part of BW, and good scouting reveals a lot more in SC2 than you imply.
Maybe it's not an insult to either game and you are overreacting? Mind games definitely is not a part of D+ SC BW.
Huh?
If you don't play chess, you won't understand chess analogies. Sorry.
Applying progamer strategies to D games is also wrong. SK terran for example is going to be a bad strategy for D level terrans. They ought to go double fact. The game is filled with these kinds of things. People try to copy progamer builds but often don't understand them.
Yes, but this is far less applicable to BW than SC2. There's a few people on ICCUP going mass scout, yeah, but the fast majority are doing an attempt at "real" builds, even at the lowest level.
Of course you do a real build. But what does that have to do with strategy? Strategy is 5 fact timing pushes. Strategy is +1 speedlot rushing in TvZ.
Strategy is when to switch to ultras.
Strategy is when to use carriers and when to use arbiters.
Strategy is doing a 2 fact into double armory late game because the map allows it in TvP.
Strategy is doing fake medic marines vs zerg.
You're aware BW doesn't have an in-game clock, right? How do you develop game sense without going even a simple strategy? You have no benchmarks for timing.
So? You don't use minutes. You use what you have. Your build is 100% tight and this counts as time because the first tank coming out is the same every game unless something crazy happened. You don't actually know what time it is in actual minutes.
I do maintain that mechanics > strategy, and that people overemphasize strategy because it's the "fun part", but to say strategy doesn't matter at all, in either game, even at low levels, is a little absurd.
I don't know how you think not worrying about strategy means you have to play the game wrong. The point is that if people can beat you building mass scouts, you shouldn't be very worried about the exact moment you switch your tech or if you should do a timing push with or without weapons upgrade or about what is the proper late game for a certain map or learning a build order to the letter until you have 140 supply.
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^^Yeah, although BW doesn't have in-game clock unless you are playing on Fish/Brainclan w/ wlauncher, you use relative timings, for example, if you are doing 9 min push and forgot scans, you can put down blind turrets at 75% Factory. You should probably make an episode on relative timings.
On July 01 2011 10:47 TheGlassface wrote:
You know what would be cool...
A guide detailing what to look for as each race on a map.
For example, if I am protoss what am I looking for on Python? The wide open middle appeals to me and there is a relatively securable third but what builds would suit this map best? What builds are hindered by simply the terrain?
Yeah you should probably make a episode specific for each type of map (2p,3p,4p etc) or one that goes over all three or something.
Also more FPVODs would be nice.
Also, does anyone know if "tapping" applies to SCBW? I don't know if i should be spamming my rax every now and then to check marine completion rate.
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On July 01 2011 17:28 Nazza wrote:
^^Yeah, although BW doesn't have in-game clock unless you are playing on Fish/Brainclan w/ wlauncher, you use relative timings, for example, if you are doing 9 min push and forgot scans, you can put down blind turrets at 75% Factory. You should probably make an episode on relative timings.
Relative timings come with playing a lot of games and sticking to a strategy so that you get a feel for "DTs about now". The SC2 clock makes it easier to get a head for timings, but it's not directly useful after the initial attack, because there are too many variables. There are timings that are useful, though, because they're malleable. In SC2, I make an overlord when my pool's at 500hp to have them finish at the same time, and that's true if I 14gas14pool, 14 hatch, get bunker rushed and have my opening fucked up, etc. Those are pretty nifty timings to memorize, but a lot of the more complex ones are kind of a star sense thing, I think.
I don't know how much timings can be "taught", since they're dependent on build and execution (40 food is a very different time for Flash than for a D-, for instance). I've heard day[9] say that BW pros use the mineral count in their mains as a makeshift clock, though.
Show nested quote +On July 01 2011 10:47 TheGlassface wrote:
You know what would be cool...
A guide detailing what to look for as each race on a map.
For example, if I am protoss what am I looking for on Python? The wide open middle appeals to me and there is a relatively securable third but what builds would suit this map best? What builds are hindered by simply the terrain? Yeah you should probably make a episode specific for each type of map (2p,3p,4p etc) or one that goes over all three or something. Also more FPVODs would be nice.
Python is practically the only map on ICCUP, so it's the best to talk about.
Also, does anyone know if "tapping" applies to SCBW? I don't know if i should be spamming my rax every now and then to check marine completion rate.
I do it (when I remember ;_;). I see no reason why you shouldn't. Obviously, you shouldn't hotkey all your rax because that's too many rax to hotkey, but you can tap one and F1 to your rax when it's free to macro out of all of them.
Actually, does anything in the Day[9] mechanics dailies not apply to BW, actually? Does he not go in to anything we noobs should know about?
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Ribbon... with all due respect I dont think you should post in this thread. Each of ur posts has been riddled with misinformation.
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On July 01 2011 18:18 Ribbon wrote:
Python is practically the only map on ICCUP, so it's the best to talk about.
Nononono, this is the worst thing you could ever say to a noob, and no python is not the only map on iccup, not even close, this is so wrong its hard to believe your not trolling right now.
Ribbon, for the sake of all the sc2 noobs i think its time for you to stop posting in this thread.
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On June 30 2011 21:12 pedrotrv wrote:Show nested quote +On June 30 2011 21:01 LastWish wrote:
PvT:
Can be played on high level even with low APM. Just go for 1-2 gate goons into expansion. Build non stop goons until terran expands, then take 3rd. Tech arbiters. Golden rule is 3 gateways for each expansion. That means with 3 saturated bases it's 9 gateways to hold off terran timing push.
Dude, what's the arbiter timing? I'm getting stomped in PvT. Doing 2 gates obs expand and get third base soon, but I'm having trouble fiding a good timing to get arbiter tech. W/O arbiters there is no way to win this mu.
There are acually at least 2 common arbiter timings:
1. 2 base arbiter
You need fast 2nd gas on expansion. Delayed 3rd expansion.
This build was pretty common 1-2 years ago.
2. 3 base arbiter
I prefer this option.
You get 3rd base as soon as you see Terran expanding, use pylons(almost all pylons that are build after you expand) to block chokes/narrow paths.
Robo before/after 3rd base - depends whether you can pull it off.
Meanwhile build 100% goons(number of gateways are optional), I also get one shuttle + 4 lots. Add citadel, forge when you feel safe.
After getting your 3rd build up-to 9 gateways total and start pumping goon/zeal.
Meanwhile get your 2nd and 3rd gas(about the same time) and go stargate+archives(you should have citadel by this time with legs already) -> tribunal + second stargate. Research arbiter energy->statis.
This was used before 2 base arbiters and seems to be getting popular over the last year once again.
If you are interested I have a nice replay where my noobiness beats a korean A- terran in a straight macro game.
Even though I don't play BW that much anymore I still feel confidence in my PvT skill.
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United Kingdom1666 Posts
I will try to set as many things entirely straight as possible. I'm aiming to have an episode up by the end of the weekend. Trying to get some really good content in, without making each particularly long. Gotta keep them accessible.
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@Ribbon
Python is not the only map played on ICCup. I play lots of Tau Cross and Fighting Spirit, and I see a lot of Destination and the other MOTW.
@LastWish
Thanks for tips. A replay would be really nice. I'll practice this today!
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I heard that in SC2 there is much less of a defender's advantage than in BW. Is that true?
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On July 02 2011 01:39 J.Dong wrote:
I heard that in SC2 there is much less of a defender's advantage than in BW. Is that true?
yes.
BW's high ground mechanics are much more favorable towards the person on the high ground (makes stopping allins easier), also units are stupid in general which makes them move up ramps poorly. And there's no Warp Gates either! There's other reasons too.
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Also...staying with my "we need a Brood War only version of Teamliquid" thing...
I think a project like this would be great but I think what would be *superb* is if we had more Brood War liquipedia updates.
A quick look at the SC II version and then the Brood War version (moooooonths old front page, outdated builds, flat out incorrect information in some cases) shows that we could use things like a tournament portal...
which leads me to my next idea for your project. Maybe a series of VODs about tournament play. Etiquette, rules, etc. A lot of new players tend to not know these things. Seamless integration would help and maybe even allow for "newb" tournaments to be run.
I still want to say how much I love this idea. Anything we as a community can do to keep Brood War alive is A-OK by me.
Another idea would be to do a series on how to setup the various servers. FIsh, Iccup, Brain. Along with information on where to find textpacks(for reading the various languages), etiquette for those servers and so on. I know that was a huge help to my improvement when I started playing on Fish and Brain from time to time too.
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On July 01 2011 20:52 pedrotrv wrote:
@LastWish
Thanks for tips. A replay would be really nice. I'll practice this today!
Ok, I didn't find the proper fast arbiter replay, however this replay shows well how to execute 3-base macro game.
Arbiter + templar is even more effective than pure arbiters.
![[image loading]](http://repdepot.net/img/thumbs/42648.jpg)
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On July 02 2011 03:45 Crunchums wrote:Show nested quote +On July 02 2011 01:39 J.Dong wrote:
I heard that in SC2 there is much less of a defender's advantage than in BW. Is that true? yes. BW's high ground mechanics are much more favorable towards the person on the high ground (makes stopping allins easier), also units are stupid in general which makes them move up ramps poorly. And there's no Warp Gates either! There's other reasons too.
Aside the fact that unit AI in BW is really stupid and they will prolly get stuck in the ramp.
@LastWish
Thx dude!
@Imbatoss
Eagerly waiting. It'll be awesome.
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On July 01 2011 13:12 Suisen wrote:
Applying progamer strategies to D games is also wrong. SK terran for example is going to be a bad strategy for D level terrans. They ought to go double fact. The game is filled with these kinds of things. People try to copy progamer builds but often don't understand them.
2fact for players who won't have the mechanics required to pull it off, as opposed to SK terran? Being a style of play as opposed to a set BO, lower level players trying out SK isn't as bad as them using an ee han attack....
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i think the hardest thing ever from sc2 to scbw is
stop doing 1a and do 1a2a3a
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On July 02 2011 15:05 Austro wrote:Show nested quote +On July 01 2011 13:12 Suisen wrote:
Applying progamer strategies to D games is also wrong. SK terran for example is going to be a bad strategy for D level terrans. They ought to go double fact. The game is filled with these kinds of things. People try to copy progamer builds but often don't understand them.
2fact for players who won't have the mechanics required to pull it off, as opposed to SK terran? Being a style of play as opposed to a set BO, lower level players trying out SK isn't as bad as them using an ee han attack....
SK Terran isn't a set a build, but there are several set strategies that you can transition into SK Terran quite comfortably, such as A Yu Mi that leaves you with 4 Rax already made, 9 min push, which can do alot of damage with it's initial push and follow up with 2 ebays researching upgrades. I think 9 min push is still a pretty good option as it gives you some idea of when to get tech, and emphasizes upgrades which are quite important. Even though it is a timing push and you can screw up the timings, it is still quite possible to win off of a slightly off-timed push at lower levels.
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No, you either go for tanks or you go double starport for science vessels. You can't make tanks and vessels off 2 fact and 2 port with just 2 gas.
It's a decision you make. Many people go 2 port. But considering many D players skip mutas anyway and their defilers are slow and not very dangerous, tanks is just better. Lurkers are just that strong on D level. A D terran isn't going to kill burrowed lurkers without tanks by first irradiating them and then attacking straight into them with proper marine micro.
Everything else you both talk about is besides the point. A 9 minute push has no bearing at all on going SK terran or tank heavy.
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On July 02 2011 15:49 Giwoon wrote:
i think the hardest thing ever from sc2 to scbw is
stop doing 1a and do 1a2a3a
No Smatcast is pretty bad too. When a protoss suddenly stacks 8 storms in one place for a grand total for 3 hydra kills... Then you know what he's been playing.
Also wouldn't you at least use 1a2a in SCII for better army control? How do you form concaves?
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EPT
