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I can't really say much about the first part of the episode, partly because I'm a bw player (I can't judge your accuracy with comparison of units/if you left units out/etc) and partly because I can't judge the pacing/quality of the episode until I've seen all of the parts.
I'll offer some basic feedback, but I'm not sure how much of it is going to be included in the following parts... but yeah:
- Try not to look off-screen at your notes too much! You want to engage the audience with as much 'fluidity' (for lack of a better word >.>) as possible.
- Try and use vods/replays to explain examples rather than static pictures; it puts ideas into context as well as making the show more engaging (i.e. showing a shuttle in action (with a reaver harass for two birds with one stone!), showing how gateways produce units, etc.). Again not sure how relevant this will be as you might do this in later episodes!
- You forgot to mention 'high ground advantage', which will make a /huge/ difference to sc2 players
Looking promising; I'm sure this will be helpful for introducing sc2 players to bw!
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United Kingdom1704 Posts
Yeah I'll be doing exactly the kind of thing with VODs etc for the next section, as I go into more depth on specific units.
Fluidity will definitely be something I can work on, and which will come with more practice.
High ground advantage and other such details will be covered in the basic mechanics differences rundown, which may need a seperate video as part 3, or may fit into part 2.
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Well, usually I am not the the kind of person who shreds contributions but as an recent newcomer in SC:BW I feel really affected by this topic so I will try to be as constructive as possible.
Even at such an basic topic as comparing both games units' there are already points where I as watcher would disagree. For example the Phoenix is much better compareable to Corsairs (fast, good vs light, equal costs) than scouts, which are again more compareable to Voidrays (slow, shoots ground and air, expensive). Furthermore Mothership vs Arbiter: Both are flying T3 Spellcasters with weak offensive, both cloak friendly Units beneath, both have recall, both have a spell that manipulates clumps of units (friend or foe). I can hardly think of any Unit more similar to each other.
Nevertheless I think this discussion is a matter of taste and the concerning theme of arguable statements might vanish as soon as you potentially stop comparing both games at later episodes.
All that beside I wonder why you actually chose this topic as your first one. Sure its flashy with all the pictures and stuff but it appears very very trivial to me. I would have liked much more of a introduction of the overarching concepts of SC:BW, like revolving heavily around
- mechanics
- very acurate formulated gameplans (due to the game being played for so long)
- controling space (and the resulting timing windows through that) due to highground advantage and powerful units like reavers, lurkers and siege tanks
because these are the main reasons (at least for me) why I am interested in SC:BW and imho other people might be aswell, instead of a medic and a dropship are two sepperate Units in this game (exaggerated spoken).
Hope that was not too harsh, apology in advance if so.
Edit: Oh wow, I am a Zealot now :D
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United Kingdom1704 Posts
I wanted to make sure that people knew the absolute basics before I got into the more advanced stuff. I want to be able to cater for people all the way from "I wonder what BW is like". It's going to go into plenty more depth, I tried to make that clear. I realise that many people don't need this first video, but I'm sure that some will. Many won't need the next, talking about key units in more depth (with VODs), and outlining some key mechanics differences, eg. high ground advantage, no chrono boost, no MBS etc.
I will be doing regular replay studies after the original guides, but they aren't going to be about teaching specific build orders etc. There's no need for that, we have all the builds we could ever want already written down, in great detail. They will be studying the way each game is being played.
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Question: how do you use your control groups? 5-0 being gateways and/or robo/stargates? And 1-4 are units? 6 doesn't seem like enough. And what about my nexi? I have to say I enjoy sc2s multiple building selection. I heard a bit that the F2-F5 keys are used for camera... Do you use 5 and 6 for nexi until midgame then switch them to gates and make your camera groups the bases and click to make probes?
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I would have preferred it if you showed a short clip of BW units in action, with 2 or 3 sentences explaining how each unit works.
Also, maybe you can explain each race's mentalities, like they do in the strategy section in liquidpedia.
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On July 06 2011 08:56 Mr. Enchilada wrote:
Question: how do you use your control groups? 5-0 being gateways and/or robo/stargates? And 1-4 are units? 6 doesn't seem like enough. And what about my nexi? I have to say I enjoy sc2s multiple building selection. I heard a bit that the F2-F5 keys are used for camera... Do you use 5 and 6 for nexi until midgame then switch them to gates and make your camera groups the bases and click to make probes?
Most people use Fkeys(F2 F3 F4) to get into those gateways though in my case I use 6 for gateways tapping six twice will put your camera on that gateway and just click each gateway. People use 1-5 for units some use 456 for nexus and some use 09 and the fkeys.
I keep my nexus under 09 since vulture raids comes and I have to replenish my probe count. Anyway just hotkey 1 gateway and just click on them one by one and press the hotkey for producing that unit since you'll usually have more than 6+ gateways and you really just can't hotkey them all
edit: Terribad english
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Yeah that makes sense. Any tips for army? In campaign I know units get all fucked up going up cliffs. And dragoons are the dumbest AI ever implemented into a game.
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On July 06 2011 08:56 Mr. Enchilada wrote:
Question: how do you use your control groups? 5-0 being gateways and/or robo/stargates? And 1-4 are units? 6 doesn't seem like enough. And what about my nexi? I have to say I enjoy sc2s multiple building selection. I heard a bit that the F2-F5 keys are used for camera... Do you use 5 and 6 for nexi until midgame then switch them to gates and make your camera groups the bases and click to make probes?
Depends on race but as a protoss the nexuses(nexii?) are best on 0-9-8.. because "p" key is near those numbers. As a terran and zerg it may be the other way round.
As a protoss, early games I use 0-nexus, 9-8..-gateways. This way you can properly macro or execute timing attacks, rushes on 1 base.
After I get 2+ bases with over 4 gateways,I rehotkey(0-9.. for nexus) and use max one hotkey for gateways - double tap and click each individually.
1..5 = units.
F-keys are nice but I have really never got used to them.
Also your building placement architecture is important(at least for toss and terran, since zerg has a lot of his hatcheries on hotkeys).
I try to use this whenever possible:
G G G G G
G G PP G G
- or -
G G PP G G
G G G G G
Gateway is twice the width of a pylon, so this forms a nice shape.
This way all your units can get out of gateways and you can effectively macro from your gateways.
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On July 06 2011 10:51 Mr. Enchilada wrote:
Yeah that makes sense. Any tips for army? In campaign I know units get all fucked up going up cliffs. And dragoons are the dumbest AI ever implemented into a game.
You just have to click repeatedly when moving through narrow passages.
Sometimes your dragoons get stuck - it looks like they have they cannon orifices opened ready to fire but they don't shoot and don't react to move command either.
This is super annoying and you have to click 's' for stop in order to make this go away.
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United Kingdom1704 Posts
Ok, I've seen that people want more detail, faster. So in the next part with focus on individual crucial units, I'll get plenty of detail in on how to micro these units, and what situations to use them in.
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I'm sorry if this is slightly off topic but I felt that making a whole new thread for this would be overkill: As a new Sc2 player who never played sc or bw, what would make someone play sc instead of sc2? I could understand players who have been playing SC for years to want to stick with it but what argument could be used to get someone with no previous SC experience to choose it over SC2?
Just wondering! 
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On July 07 2011 01:36 Steeveholt wrote:I'm sorry if this is slightly off topic but I felt that making a whole new thread for this would be overkill: As a new Sc2 player who never played sc or bw, what would make someone play sc instead of sc2? I could understand players who have been playing SC for years to want to stick with it but what argument could be used to get someone with no previous SC experience to choose it over SC2? Just wondering!
Well the most important is that BW is a complete game that has been tested through time.
SC2 on the other hand is far from a complete game, may be one day after a datadisk or two, but not right now.
The only thing that makes SC2 better is that it has larger comunity worldwide. Though part of the community are just common people that like to hang out with others and as the time goes by they will move to something else.. eventually.
BW players + community are forged from passion for the game.
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On July 07 2011 01:36 Steeveholt wrote:I'm sorry if this is slightly off topic but I felt that making a whole new thread for this would be overkill: As a new Sc2 player who never played sc or bw, what would make someone play sc instead of sc2? I could understand players who have been playing SC for years to want to stick with it but what argument could be used to get someone with no previous SC experience to choose it over SC2? Just wondering!
If you were to believe the idea that the games are "radically different?"
That'd be like asking should one play soccer or basketball, you'd need to sample them both and find which one suits you.
If you were to think they're very similar but with one being more refined and the other coming into it's own?
Same deal, honestly.
The main difference is, Brood War is very reined at this point and comes with years of history and build orders and things you can look up. SC 2 still has 2 expansions to go and lord knows what the game will look like by then.
If you're a graphics-phile, you'd want Sc 2. No one can deny the game looks beautiful even if they (I) do still love the old school graphics in BW
The control scheme I find is something that takes getting used to if you've been accustomed to newer RTS series. If you're coming fresh into the RTS world, I don't think it matters as they both take time to learn how to operate.
The galaxy editor, if you're into modding, is astounding...even if the way they chose to implement the releasing of custom maps was re-taaaarrrrrded.
That's what I can think of for now, will edit if I think of more.
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On July 04 2011 21:53 maybenexttime wrote:Show nested quote +On July 04 2011 18:54 Hatefiend wrote:On June 25 2011 07:21 eeniebear wrote:On June 25 2011 07:06 HornyHerring wrote:
THIS IS NO WAY A TROLLING OR HATING POST!
Just wondering - pure curiousity, why do/would people switch from SC2 to BW? Control group limit = more skill necessary to play the game. Also, SCBW isn't a game that breaks every game down into build order autowins and autolosses. I used to watch a lot of pro SC2, and that's all it was. Whoever did the build that was the counter, that guy always won. Wrong. StarCraft Brood War emphasizes skill on different aspects. I am amazed Blizzard hasn't updated StarCraft Brood War to fix obvious problems in the UI. Poor pathing (Dragoons hehehe), Control Group limits, worker rally point unable to target items, Zerg unable to have two rally points etc etc. Imagine taking a test at school and having them take your erasers off your pencils. Well, you can still take the test, but now it's a little bit harder/more annoying for not really any reason at all. Why should a game be harder because its user interface is harder to use, not because of the actual strategy components? It doesn't make sense. Imagine playing Starcraft without keybinds. Does that make the game harder/takes more skill to play? Of course, you can't press keys so things take longer, so only people with fast hands and good multi-tasking can play well. But that's just stupid; you ruin the concept of strategy games with that mindset. TLDR: not trolling at all, just doing a 'truth rage' that SC BW should of had components implemented in Starcraft 2. And that Strategy doesn't equal making things harder to perform mechanically. http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=62217"From now on, anyone using the "Dune argument" will be temp banned. No warnings, just banned. For those of you unaware of what it is, here's an explanation: The "Dune argument" is that if we are so worried about skill, and think MBS is so detrimental to this, why don't we revert back to the Dune UI, where you could only select one unit at a time. The counter-argument to this is obvious: If you want everything to be so easy, why don't we turn the game into an interactive movie? Why don't we just have the computer macro for you, and you can control the units! See how silly both of these arguments are? This type of argumentation leads nowhere, as what's important is finding a balance, not going to various extremes to make silly points. Thank you for your co-operation, - FrozenArbiter"
In no way shape or form was my nested quote a "Dune" argument.
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United Kingdom1704 Posts
Top priority- why to play BW!!! coming up as soon as possible before mechanics or any shit like that 
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On July 06 2011 02:19 ImbaTosS wrote:
Yeah I'll be doing exactly the kind of thing with VODs etc for the next section, as I go into more depth on specific units.
My thoughts on the VOD, as an SC2 player with a very out-of-date and generally lower knowledge of BW.
I think my big issue is that it doesn't make BW sound fun. I guess, yeah, the intention is for people already interested in BW, but it feels weird for the introduction to not start with "you should play BW because X". That's one of the reasons I brought up this, which contains very little useful knowledge, but makes BW (or SC2:BW, close enough for union work) look fun as hell. Something like that works better as a first video, I think. And, obviously, a video like this with the real BW instead of SC2 modded to be BW is better, but I think the daily is so good at making BW look really fun that it's worth being an intro anyway.
Unless someone wants to do it with BW, of course.
Anyway, on to the video proper. I like it. Any complaints I have are mostly nitpicky.
1. VR -> Scout (kinda), Phoenix -> Corsair. Yes, Phoenices can kinda sorta fight ground units, but Phoenix and 'Sairs have a much more similar role than Phoenix/Scout
2. Mothership is totally -> Arbiter. They both have recall, and Vortex is generally used as a stasis (or for Storm Toilets)
3. Every SC1 Terran unit except the Valk is in a campaign more or less unchanged (except the science vessel, which has different, which might be worth prefacing with.
4. I would just say the reaper's gone entirely. Nothing in BW is really used the same way (for Terran).
5. Are medics actually the same speed as unstimmed marines? I remember them always running ahead of the army, but I haven't played Terran in a while.
6. Overlords can detect in BW, which is worth a mention
7. Guardians are way, way, WAY worse than Brood Lords, which I feel is important enough to mention as well, though I suppose if you're going to go in depth later, it makes sense to mention ir that.
On July 07 2011 01:36 Steeveholt wrote:I'm sorry if this is slightly off topic but I felt that making a whole new thread for this would be overkill: As a new Sc2 player who never played sc or bw, what would make someone play sc instead of sc2? I could understand players who have been playing SC for years to want to stick with it but what argument could be used to get someone with no previous SC experience to choose it over SC2? Just wondering!
Until someone makes a good one with the "real" BW, I'll point to the day9 daily I linked above as a good reason why it's kind of fun. The "challenge" was that only people who never played BW submitted replays.
http://blip.tv/day9tv/day-9-daily-318-funday-monday-sc2bw-5345218
On July 07 2011 05:35 LastWish wrote:
The only thing that makes SC2 better is that it has larger comunity worldwide. Though part of the community are just common people that like to hang out with others and as the time goes by they will move to something else.. eventually.
BW players + community are forged from passion for the game.
I feel that this is kind of insulting to SC2 fans who are putting in a lot of effort to try to push SC2 as the Big E-Sport, and who buy tickets for GSLs and MLGs instead of pirating everything, tune in to one of the various talk shows about SC2, watch the After Hours Gaming League which is designed to spread e-sports to people not normally inclined, etc. etc. etc. SC2 fans can actually get nearly evangelical about it. Having that blown off by BW fans actually makes SC2 fans disinclined to try BW.
I think, if you want to convert, "SC2 is really good but BW is even better" is a better message than "SC2 is terrible, and everyone who likes SC2 is terrible", which can come out of the BW fanbase sometimes. I mean, granted, there's always that one SC2 fan in every goddamn thread going "LOL BW has old graphic = it sucks" and making me ashamed to be associated with him, but postive messages are more easily accepted.
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I am wanting to learn to improve in sc2 actually. The macro in BW seems sooo much harder, for example making every fucking worker not sit there like an idiot on break is a challenge right now lol. But The idea of 12 unit strike forces intrigues me so much more. So while I am playing I don't care about strategy as I am not doing iccup or anything, I am just practicing making things, while moving units around the map and keeping money low. I am a high diamond zerg, but since the queen-larvae mechanic isn't in there I am having fun with Toss actually (stupid dragoons...). So to answer the "WHY BW? DERP" posts, I honestly feel if you didn't play it, going back will really elevate your sc2.
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Thanks for the answers guys, sorry if the question caused a bit of noise in the thread! I actually went out and bought the game today (figured I could afford the 15$ to give it a shot!)
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For sure dude. But I have a question, I am using this for sc2 practice. Is there ANY mod out there that added (i think its called this MBS? Manually telling each work to mine is bothering me so much! I recognize that when transferring back that mental space could be use maybe to check chtono or something, but for now I would really rather do without.
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