EPTGuide for players switching from SC2 - Page 4
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CreamyButter
United States56 Posts
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Ribbon
United States5278 Posts
On June 28 2011 11:56 sluggaslamoo wrote: o_O What? Just play a race that you like, and stick with the standard build orders against each matchup The problem is that most people can't. Every time I see a D player go SK Terran, I cry a little inside (and I used to do it myself). You don't have 300 APM. What the hell are you doing? You start with a simple build so you learn how to play the game. Before I switched to SC2, I had 30 APM. Trying to ape the good build is a complete waste of time, and I was wallowing in D-/E, because I was doing the "proper" things completely incompetently. Then I watched day[9]'s special on mechanics, and now I have 60 APM, go "just make hydras dood" and beat players that used to cream me because my mechanics, while still absolutely shitty next to good people, are better than a lot of D- players who are doing the "proper" thing terribly. No matter how good your build is, if you're floating 2k minerals 10 minutes into the game and the other guy isn't, you're probably going to lose. It's been proven with the mass queen thing that the bottom 60% of SC2 players can be beaten with mass queens if the opponent's mechanics are solid. It's a fairly agreed-upon point that BW is way way more mechanically intensive than BW. If you can't macro, that's why you're losing. Even in SC2, and especially in BW The best way to learn is to do something really simple until your mechanics are good, and then do something a little more complicated, and practice that until you have it down. And eventually dp a pro style build develop your own style. Just trying to do a really complex build your first time loading up the game is intensely frustrating. I've tried it both ways: Mechanics >>>>>>>>>>>>Strategy. Strategy only really matters when both players have good mechanics. If Flash is playing a B- on ICCUP, he can do whatever the hell he wants and win, because his mechanics (which includes micro) will be so much better. If I play enough BW that I'm confortable with my mass hydras, I'll do a slightly better build, like doing a lurker contain while taking a fourth or something like that. That's the proper way to get better, in both games. | ||
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Magus
Canada450 Posts
5sh That's it. That is your build. You go 1a2a5sh and you're done microing and macroing. You won't even have enough hydras to beat anything but a computer in all likelihood. If you are going to do a low econ build for the purposes of not stressing your macro then go 2 or 3 hatch hydra, not 1 base hydras. As a note, macroing is fairly easy as zerg until you fill up 5-0 with hatcheries, my macro doesn't fall apart until I hit that 7th hatchery and I have to go back to my bases to macro up. | ||
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Lumire
United States607 Posts
On June 28 2011 12:57 Ribbon wrote: The problem is that most people can't. Every time I see a D player go SK Terran, I cry a little inside (and I used to do it myself). You don't have 300 APM. What the hell are you doing? You start with a simple build so you learn how to play the game. Before I switched to SC2, I had 30 APM. Trying to ape the good build is a complete waste of time, and I was wallowing in D-/E, because I was doing the "proper" things completely incompetently. Then I watched day[9]'s special on mechanics, and now I have 60 APM, go "just make hydras dood" and beat players that used to cream me because my mechanics, while still absolutely shitty next to good people, are better than a lot of D- players who are doing the "proper" thing terribly. No matter how good your build is, if you're floating 2k minerals 10 minutes into the game and the other guy isn't, you're probably going to lose. It's been proven with the mass queen thing that the bottom 60% of SC2 players can be beaten with mass queens if the opponent's mechanics are solid. It's a fairly agreed-upon point that BW is way way more mechanically intensive than BW. If you can't macro, that's why you're losing. Even in SC2, and especially in BW The best way to learn is to do something really simple until your mechanics are good, and then do something a little more complicated, and practice that until you have it down. And eventually dp a pro style build develop your own style. Just trying to do a really complex build your first time loading up the game is intensely frustrating. I've tried it both ways: Mechanics >>>>>>>>>>>>Strategy. Strategy only really matters when both players have good mechanics. If Flash is playing a B- on ICCUP, he can do whatever the hell he wants and win, because his mechanics (which includes micro) will be so much better. If I play enough BW that I'm confortable with my mass hydras, I'll do a slightly better build, like doing a lurker contain while taking a fourth or something like that. That's the proper way to get better, in both games. no, im sorry but just no, this is completely wrong. To even get out of D you need atleast a liquidpedia build and 100 apm, trying to do stupid builds like mass hydra you will never get above really low D or even D- unless you have C level mechanics, yeah you will be able to beat other 60 apm D- players sometimes but never more. That dosent include the fact that it is also atrocious for the learning process as you learn absolutely nothing about the game and pick up a million bad habits with no way to learn decision making because your builds are just retarded compared to what normal players use. Some builds are exclusively for top players like valkonic but anything you will find on liquipedia or TL is absolutely noob friendly. I appreciate that you want to help but all you're doing is feeding new BW players complete misinformation and bad learning steps, adding an extra hatch as a layer of complexity to help improve is a really really bad idea... On a lighter note, Elegant id be happy to help with some guides/vods if you could use any more C level zerg analysis. | ||
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sluggaslamoo
Australia4494 Posts
On June 28 2011 16:58 One wrote: no, im sorry but just no, this is completely wrong. To even get out of D you need atleast a liquidpedia build and 100 apm, trying to do stupid builds like mass hydra you will never get above really low D or even D- unless you have C level mechanics, yeah you will be able to beat other 60 apm D- players sometimes but never more. That dosent include the fact that it is also atrocious for the learning process as you learn absolutely nothing about the game and pick up a million bad habits with no way to learn decision making because your builds are just retarded compared to what normal players use. Some builds are exclusively for top players like valkonic but anything you will find on liquipedia or TL is absolutely noob friendly. I appreciate that you want to help but all you're doing is feeding new BW players complete misinformation and bad learning steps, adding an extra hatch as a layer of complexity to help improve is a really really bad idea... On a lighter note, Elegant id be happy to help with some guides/vods if you could use any more C level zerg analysis. Now now. But I believe Ribbon is being too general with the word mechanics. Strategy matters even at the low level. You will find quite a few low apm C+ players out there, who aren't just robots. Also Zerg macro difficulty remains completely flat until you stop just a-moving units. Its probably the easiest race to macro with compared to other races, its basically like macroing Terran in SC2, do other stuff while going 4sz5sz6sz. Zerg difficulty stems from being effective with units. Zerg macro difficulty also does not scale with the number of hatches, unlike sc2 where a queen needs to manage each hatch. Simply put theres no reason to stay on 1 hatch as zerg, because macroing off 3 hatches is just as easy. The other aspects of Zerg are much much harder, you need good unit control and acute awareness. Its very easy to go 3 hatch muta into lose your whole fucking base. Yes SK Terran is hard, but its not the only build in Liquipedia. The reason noobs like to use it is because its insanely fun. M&M Tank or Mech are much more viable at low apm levels and are completely legit. | ||
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Zedders
Canada450 Posts
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Ribbon
United States5278 Posts
On June 28 2011 16:58 One wrote: To even get out of D you need atleast a liquidpedia build and 100 apm, trying to do stupid builds like mass hydra you will never get above really low D or even D- unless you have C level mechanics. (Bold added) ....Yes? If you have better mechanics, you can win with a worse build. That's my point. 60 APM and mass Hydra is better than 30 APM and pro builds. And this scales to pretty high up the ladder. I don't understand why BW fans highlight how important mechanics are and then reject the idea that it can be game-deciding. Obviously, I'm not talking about a pro level, I'm talking about the noob-to-average player who sucks On June 28 2011 17:44 sluggaslamoo wrote: Now now. But I believe Ribbon is being too general with the word mechanics. Mechanics = Micro + Macro + Multitasking. The execution, basically. But low level players who try to do the pro builds AREN'T doing the pro builds, because pro builds don't include "and then get supply blocked a lot and forget to make units half the time". A D level player going the Flash double armory build isn't actually doing the Flash build. He's doing some shitty-ass mech build that has at best a vague resemblance to the Flash build if Flash had a stroke, was drunk, and was also retarded due to brain damage from a freak sucking ass at Starcraft accident. That's why there's no point to it. The vast majority of people even on ICCUP (myself included, of course) are atrocious. If a D or C level player tries to do a pro build, he's doing it so incompetently that he might as well not be doing it at all. | ||
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HaFnium
United Kingdom1070 Posts
On June 28 2011 13:50 Magus wrote: The issue with a one base hydra build is this: 5sh That's it. That is your build. You go 1a2a5sh and you're done microing and macroing. You won't even have enough hydras to beat anything but a computer in all likelihood. If you are going to do a low econ build for the purposes of not stressing your macro then go 2 or 3 hatch hydra, not 1 base hydras. As a note, macroing is fairly easy as zerg until you fill up 5-0 with hatcheries, my macro doesn't fall apart until I hit that 7th hatchery and I have to go back to my bases to macro up. just to say u can do 2 hatch hydra on 1 base u dont really need lots of mins/gas | ||
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TheRPGAddict
United States1403 Posts
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hellbound
United Kingdom2242 Posts
On June 28 2011 18:32 Ribbon wrote: (Bold added) ....Yes? If you have better mechanics, you can win with a worse build. That's my point. 60 APM and mass Hydra is better than 30 APM and pro builds. And this scales to pretty high up the ladder. I don't understand why BW fans highlight how important mechanics are and then reject the idea that it can be game-deciding. Obviously, I'm not talking about a pro level, I'm talking about the noob-to-average player who sucks Mechanics = Micro + Macro + Multitasking. The execution, basically. But low level players who try to do the pro builds AREN'T doing the pro builds, because pro builds don't include "and then get supply blocked a lot and forget to make units half the time". A D level player going the Flash double armory build isn't actually doing the Flash build. He's doing some shitty-ass mech build that has at best a vague resemblance to the Flash build if Flash had a stroke, was drunk, and was also retarded due to brain damage from a freak sucking ass at Starcraft accident. That's why there's no point to it. The vast majority of people even on ICCUP (myself included, of course) are atrocious. If a D or C level player tries to do a pro build, he's doing it so incompetently that he might as well not be doing it at all. Calm down, D+ players can do standard builds (the same ones that pros use) just fine. I'm D+ and I can do the 3 tank 1 vessel push in TvZ and I don't even play terran. Sure it will be 20 seconds late and my control is terribad, but that can be fixed by doing it again and again, practice they call that. People in low ranks should be improving their mechanics doing the right stuff not wrong stuff. How is practice involving mass hydra vs mm control beneficial to a noobie when he should be learning to engage mm with lurker ling and/or muta ling? I don't see how a guy who macros up and pisses that away with congo line engagements is better than a guy who focuses so hard on control that he screws up his macro. | ||
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HowardRoark
1146 Posts
On June 28 2011 12:57 Ribbon wrote: [...] I was wallowing in D-/E [...] I have been seeing this a lot lately, mostly on the Star2 forum, people that talk about an E rank, but there is no E rank. I don't think people use it as a metaphor on that they are really bad, but they seem to think there is a rank below D-. Or, have I been wrong all the time considering that so many Star2 players claim there is? | ||
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shucklesors
Singapore1176 Posts
About mechanics and strategy, the scale is very different in the two games. I find it stupid when Ribbon mentions the difference between 30 APM and 60 APM. It's a difference of 30 APM, and it's also twice as much. How about the difference between an FvJ where Flash has 370 APM and Jaedong has 400 APM. You think it will affect? Well it's 30 whole APM yo! If you look at the proscene of SC2 and BW, hell any game at all, 'mechanics' is rarely a factor, though it can be, which leads the inexperienced to thinking that, yea in SC2 you need to work on your EAPM just like you do in BW. But the scale is really horribly off. The amount of time the average SC2 pro player has to spend practising to be on par with a BW B- player, if he has never touched BW in his life, is roughly the same as if a B- player were to try SC2, that he has also never touched in his life. Some might argue the SC2 player will need more time. To lead this back to the topic, my point is that if you have multitasking or mechanic based problems in SC2, even in the slightest bit, and I don't care if it's 20 minutes into the game and you're on 6 bases as a zerg, you're going to have a shitton more of such trouble in BW, race irrelevant, for damn sure. edit: @HowardRoark, yea there is an E. I've been at it the very first few times I've tried out '3 hatch muta' off notes on Liquipedia. Took me about 25 tries before I could constantly get the spire down and not have less than 600 minerals/gas or more than 1200 minerals/gas lol. I'd say the top of E or the bottom of D- is about platinum or diamond in SC2 in equivalent with mechanics and game sense. | ||
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Nazza
Australia1654 Posts
And as for strategy, you have to at least know what you are doing. It doesn't help if you can macro off 9 factories and 3 bases but you die because you forget an ebay and DT comes and kills all your SCVs. Ribbon, SK Terran is a specific type of playstyle. I think most of us are just talking about standard openings (e.g. 1 Rax FE). Pure mechanics might get a player from Bronze to Masters in SC2, but in brood war, I think the best you can get with pure mechanics is D+, possibly C-. Personally I find that if you don't have a solid gameplan or don't know your timings, your mechanics will struggle because you are constantly thinking about what you should do next. | ||
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Mottz
Portugal101 Posts
On June 28 2011 12:57 Ribbon wrote: The problem is that most people can't. Every time I see a D player go SK Terran, I cry a little inside (and I used to do it myself). You don't have 300 APM. What the hell are you doing? You start with a simple build so you learn how to play the game. Before I switched to SC2, I had 30 APM. Trying to ape the good build is a complete waste of time, and I was wallowing in D-/E, because I was doing the "proper" things completely incompetently. Then I watched day[9]'s special on mechanics, and now I have 60 APM, go "just make hydras dood" and beat players that used to cream me because my mechanics, while still absolutely shitty next to good people, are better than a lot of D- players who are doing the "proper" thing terribly. No matter how good your build is, if you're floating 2k minerals 10 minutes into the game and the other guy isn't, you're probably going to lose. It's been proven with the mass queen thing that the bottom 60% of SC2 players can be beaten with mass queens if the opponent's mechanics are solid. It's a fairly agreed-upon point that BW is way way more mechanically intensive than BW. If you can't macro, that's why you're losing. Even in SC2, and especially in BW The best way to learn is to do something really simple until your mechanics are good, and then do something a little more complicated, and practice that until you have it down. And eventually dp a pro style build develop your own style. Just trying to do a really complex build your first time loading up the game is intensely frustrating. I've tried it both ways: Mechanics >>>>>>>>>>>>Strategy. Strategy only really matters when both players have good mechanics. If Flash is playing a B- on ICCUP, he can do whatever the hell he wants and win, because his mechanics (which includes micro) will be so much better. If I play enough BW that I'm confortable with my mass hydras, I'll do a slightly better build, like doing a lurker contain while taking a fourth or something like that. That's the proper way to get better, in both games. I think its better to know you are doing the "right thing" badly, at least you know what your mistakes are, if you lose a game with a solid build you can open the replay and see your mistakes, what are you gonna do with your 1 base hydra played perfectly that loses because the opponent is decent? try again to see if you still got it on you? If you pick a solid build for each match up, on the long run you will be a better player, unless you get off on seeing your stagnant rank only achieved by cheeses and bad builds, if the goal is to just win instead of improving than its the way to go. | ||
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Chef
10810 Posts
....Yes? If you have better mechanics, you can win with a worse build. That's my point. 60 APM and mass Hydra is better than 30 APM and pro builds. I think you're confusing strategy with build orders. If you have good mechanics but keep suiciding your units all the time for nothing (as many bad players do), your mechanics are not going to matter much. Knowing when to attack, where to attack, how to stop hidden expos etc etc are all things that make and break games even if you have good mechanics against a player with bad mechanics. There's no one on this forum who hasn't lost a game, looked at the replay, and seen a player with absolutely terrible mechanics roll them. A lot of D level games could be won just by having the patience to let your opponent do something stupid (instead of rushing to do something stupid yourself). I've lost to players way worse than me just because I was too lazy to think about strategy in a game where I knew my mechanics are loads better. I think above all, the most important thing for low level players is knowing how and when to engage battles (which is a combination of trial and error + replays and being an analytical person who can understand what's going on). | ||
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hellbound
United Kingdom2242 Posts
On June 28 2011 21:49 HowardRoark wrote: I have been seeing this a lot lately, mostly on the Star2 forum, people that talk about an E rank, but there is no E rank. I don't think people use it as a metaphor on that they are really bad, but they seem to think there is a rank below D-. Or, have I been wrong all the time considering that so many Star2 players claim there is? there is an E rank. | ||
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Ribbon
United States5278 Posts
On June 28 2011 21:49 HowardRoark wrote: I have been seeing this a lot lately, mostly on the Star2 forum, people that talk about an E rank, but there is no E rank. I don't think people use it as a metaphor on that they are really bad, but they seem to think there is a rank below D-. ICCUP actually does have an E rank. I've gotten it. It's actually kind of hard to get, which is why you don't see it often (and I imagine people /clearstats at that point). On June 28 2011 13:50 Magus wrote: The issue with a one base hydra build is this: 5sh That's it. That is your build. You go 1a2a5sh and you're done microing and macroing. You won't even have enough hydras to beat anything but a computer in all likelihood. If you are going to do a low econ build for the purposes of not stressing your macro then go 2 or 3 hatch hydra, not 1 base hydras. As a note, macroing is fairly easy as zerg until you fill up 5-0 with hatcheries, my macro doesn't fall apart until I hit that 7th hatchery and I have to go back to my bases to macro up. I actually go 2 base hydra into 3 base hydra. I'm not saying "one base hydra is a good build". It's not. I'm saying you should do it until you feel you can't do it any better, then improve the build to make it more complicated. Once you've got 1a2a5sh down and you're not getting supply blocked or anything, you change your build so that so FE and go 1a2a3a4sh5sh. Once I feel I've mastered that, I'll add another lair of complexity (lurker contain, probably), and on and on and on. Eventually, if I play enough to feel comfortable in my mechanics, I'll take up a pro level build. You don't do it because it's good, you do it because it's simple. It's easier to learn starcraft one thing at a time, and once you've mastered one thing, do another. When you can look at a replay, and honestly go "I did nothing wrong, I only lost because my build sucked and not because I executed it perfectly", you can improve the build. On June 29 2011 00:39 Chef wrote: I think you're confusing strategy with build orders. If you have good mechanics but keep suiciding your units all the time for nothing ...Then you don't actually have good mechanics, do you? (as many bad players do), your mechanics are not going to matter much. Knowing when to attack, where to attack, how to stop hidden expos etc etc are all things that make and break games even if you have good mechanics against a player with bad mechanics. And it's so much harder to learn these things when you're also trying to remember a big massive plan. Having a good build will make you win more, but the best way to learn is one thing at a time. | ||
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djbhINDI
United States372 Posts
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Magus
Canada450 Posts
It took me one day to learn 3 base spire into 5 hatch hydra and get it so I could do it perfectly as per the build order given on liquipedia. -Go into singleplayer, -Pick a map off of iccup (probably fighting spirit, I've been using Circuit Breaker), -As soon as the game starts do your split, type in power overwhelming, set the game speed to fastest, then continue on with your build. -If you make a major mistake press F10 -> E -> R -> R and the game restarts. -Kill the computer when you get 3 or 4 groups of hydras + your initial lings. -Repeat ad nauseum. *If you made it to the end, check the replay afterwards to see what your supply was at 9 minutes. It should be around 85* I ran through the build like this 20 or 30 times before I could do it more than once a row without screwing up, but it definitely helped, and it definitely wasn't hard to do. | ||
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Lumire
United States607 Posts
On June 28 2011 18:32 Ribbon wrote: (Bold added) ....Yes? If you have better mechanics, you can win with a worse build. That's my point. 60 APM and mass Hydra is better than 30 APM and pro builds. And this scales to pretty high up the ladder. I don't understand why BW fans highlight how important mechanics are and then reject the idea that it can be game-deciding. Obviously, I'm not talking about a pro level, I'm talking about the noob-to-average player who sucks Mechanics = Micro + Macro + Multitasking. The execution, basically. But low level players who try to do the pro builds AREN'T doing the pro builds, because pro builds don't include "and then get supply blocked a lot and forget to make units half the time". A D level player going the Flash double armory build isn't actually doing the Flash build. He's doing some shitty-ass mech build that has at best a vague resemblance to the Flash build if Flash had a stroke, was drunk, and was also retarded due to brain damage from a freak sucking ass at Starcraft accident. That's why there's no point to it. The vast majority of people even on ICCUP (myself included, of course) are atrocious. If a D or C level player tries to do a pro build, he's doing it so incompetently that he might as well not be doing it at all. My god, ok first of all if you have the mechanics of a C player, if you used a normal build you would BE C! not some player barley skating above 2000 rating and will never get out of D+ in his life. 2nd of all, doing a terrible build because its easier is the worst thing i ever heard, you dont improve your mechanics faster at all, infact you improve them so slow you might aswell not even be playing, sure it might help you get 60 apm, but i have twice that using only my mouse, any mechanics you gain by using terrible builds for the hell if it you could have improved your mechanics twice as fast using a normal build, plus you actually learn something about the game so you can get out of D+ in your lifetime! 3rd The player who is doing the botched flash armory build is going to be a million times better in a month if he keeps practicing then some guy who went 4 rax academy off 1 base massing marine/medic in every matchup for his first month. Lower levels isnt about winning, its about challenging yourself and improving, yes the guy who went 4 rax acad will beat more D- players in his first week then the other guy but after something around 3 weeks the player who was going double armory will beat players that stomp the guy going 4 rax acad and will have better mechanics and game knowledge and overall be way better then the guy doing a stupid build because he can win more with it for a week. DO NOT give advice on how to get out of D- if you are a D- player with 60 apm going mass hydra yourself, dont you think people who have been D- players with 60 apm and are now much better players qualify more for that role? all your doing is spreading misinformation among new players that will only stunt their growth and turn them off from BW. EDIT: your underestimate iccup players so much, any solid D player will win wayyyyy more with a standard build then just going "mass hydras dood". And C players are so much better then you give them credit for i dont think i even need to point it out... | ||
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