|
On December 23 2015 21:38 TheGreatOne wrote:
Would everyone agree that Terran is somehow slightly stronger than zerg and zerg is slightly stronger than protoss in overall statistics?As well as championships won wouldn't it be Terran,Zerg, then protoss in order of most championships won by them races?
No, every one would not agree on that.
The facts, however, are that it depends on the map. Just look at statistics for different maps during the SOSPA era and you can see for yourself.
Thus, the strongest race is the one with the most favourable maps in the current map pool.
Blue Storm is an example of a map which favours Protoss in both match ups, but especially versus Zerg.
|
On December 24 2015 02:39 Jealous wrote:Show nested quote +On December 23 2015 21:52 TheGreatOne wrote:On December 22 2015 13:23 Sero wrote:
Most likely never, but it's possible that there'd be a graphics patch so the game works on newer versions of Windows. Definitely not a gameplay patch. I agree with the graphics patch as well as definitly fixing some glitches with units like dragoons for sure.Which would make protoss better if it's possible I mean.Maybe if someone(Blizzard??)would also fix some reaver bugs dealing with the scarabs they shoot out.There is also several other glitches that should be addressed.This also all falls into gameplay changes but other than the glitches and some slight fixes too hit points and building hit points for all races everything could be tweaked slightly too somehow balance better.I would need some help too look into it but someone or me could look into it.Someone that is smart at math and science could figure out how truly balanced each race is proportionately to the other races. Look at the racial statistics. They ARE balanced, enough to not warrant rocking the ship. Doing stuff like fixing Dragoon pathing and scarab connectivity would upset that balance. In SC2:BW, Scarabs have ~100% hitrate (or used to, when I played it a few years ago). Do you know how broken it felt? Part of the reason why Dragoon micro is impressive is because they are retarded. Part of the reason why Reaver targetting is impressive and scarab dodging is viable is because the scarabs are retarded. Part of the reason why Carrier is viable against Terran is because Goliaths are a pain to get up and down ramps. These are factors that make the game harder, and thus separate a bad player from a good player from a great player (not claiming these are the only factors, obviously). There is absolutely no need to forcibly change any of this for every player. If you want a squeaky-clean, noob-friendly, streamlined BW, play SC2:BW. Don't change BW's balance because you have trouble controlling units.
Translation: Love BW's bugs! LOVE THEM, I say!!!!!
|
On December 24 2015 07:21 vOdToasT wrote:Show nested quote +On December 23 2015 21:38 TheGreatOne wrote:
Would everyone agree that Terran is somehow slightly stronger than zerg and zerg is slightly stronger than protoss in overall statistics?As well as championships won wouldn't it be Terran,Zerg, then protoss in order of most championships won by them races? No, every one would not agree on that. The facts, however, are that it depends on the map. Just look at statistics for different maps during the SOSPA era and you can see for yourself. Thus, the strongest race is the one with the most favourable maps in the current map pool. Blue Storm is an example of a map which favours Protoss in both match ups, but especially versus Zerg.
I base my opinion off of overall championships won by each race.
|
Idk it's possible that the game is still balanced but overall it goes Terran>Zerg>Protoss in championship titles in the two big major leagues OSL and MSL.It just leads me too believe that that is the power of each race contributing too them titles too them players.Also maps would then therefore not matter very much.It would translate too the same power in each race being more likely too still be stronger on most maps.
|
On December 24 2015 07:21 vOdToasT wrote:Show nested quote +On December 23 2015 21:38 TheGreatOne wrote:
Would everyone agree that Terran is somehow slightly stronger than zerg and zerg is slightly stronger than protoss in overall statistics?As well as championships won wouldn't it be Terran,Zerg, then protoss in order of most championships won by them races? No, every one would not agree on that. The facts, however, are that it depends on the map. Just look at statistics for different maps during the SOSPA era and you can see for yourself. Thus, the strongest race is the one with the most favourable maps in the current map pool. Blue Storm is an example of a map which favours Protoss in both match ups, but especially versus Zerg.
On December 24 2015 12:29 TheGreatOne wrote:
Idk it's possible that the game is still balanced but overall it goes Terran>Zerg>Protoss in championship titles in the two big major leagues OSL and MSL.It just leads me too believe that that is the power of each race contributing too them titles too them players.Also maps would then therefore not matter very much.It would translate too the same power in each race being more likely too still be stronger on most maps.
It also depends on the player. If Protoss wins ~50% of its games but gets only ~10% of titles, then it most likely means that the top-level Protosses were worse players than the top-level representatives of the other races, not that the race is intrinsically flawed.
|
Why Terran? Because Boxer thats why. Countless of wannabe progamers have him as their inspirational role model (with iloveoov/Nada to follow). They want to emulate him pick Terran and win titles too.
I can guarantee if Boxer were to stick wtih Protoss instead, there would not be a such a surge in the amount of terran players in korea and terran metagame would stagnate for very long. Zergies would probably finally quit whining , since they have Flash playing Zerg instead.
|
Does every OSL/MSL win mean the same today, for the level of play the game has reached? Boxer wouldn't have won any title past his time, a Protoss won the last two OSLs.
Do we talk about the highest level of play or in general? I think that would make a huge difference, for example in TvP/PvT.
Are the statistics that we could use really reliable if the said factors and others mentioned above (like the factor map, map-pool in certain eras) are not reflected in them or cannot be discriminated?
IMO this is by no means a "simple question, simple answer" and should not be discussed in this thread. I like how normally in this thread people obey that rule, you can read the question, next 2-3 posts the answer. For a lengthy discussion you can start another thread.
Merry Christmas everybody (if you like). 
|
On December 24 2015 15:30 Highgamer wrote:Does every OSL/MSL win mean the same today, for the level of play the game has reached? Boxer wouldn't have won any title past his time, a Protoss won the last two OSLs. Do we talk about the highest level of play or in general? I think that would make a huge difference, for example in TvP/PvT. Are the statistics that we could use really reliable if the said factors and others mentioned above (like the factor map, map-pool in certain eras) are not reflected in them or cannot be discriminated? IMO this is by no means a "simple question, simple answer" and should not be discussed in this thread. I like how normally in this thread people obey that rule, you can read the question, next 2-3 posts the answer. For a lengthy discussion you can start another thread. Merry Christmas everybody (if you like).
He's not even really posing questions anymore, just stating opinions.
As creator of this thread, I will allow this type of discussion. Thanks for your input, moderator ^^;
|
On December 24 2015 15:30 Highgamer wrote:
Does every OSL/MSL win mean the same today, for the level of play the game has reached? Boxer wouldn't have won any title past his time, a Protoss won the last two OSLs.
in essence, no, the level of competition is much higher than in the past. Strategies and BOs are essentially refined and "figured out" and there is much more emphasis on mechanics towards the latter half of BW, which result in many strong mechanical players that would be able to execute BOs/strats even more efficiently.
Though they can keep up to date with current strategies, the mechanics of older players pale in comparison (though still decent) and would not be able to match the new players consistently. A lot of people like to praise Nada's apm but frankly most of it is spam, he loses to D players on fish badly
However this does not devalue Boxer's (or whoever won BW tourneys in those bygone days) achievements by any means, he has shown himself to be one of the best of his era, where knowledge of the game is still insufficient and inefficiencies in BOs are still abound. Therefore his achievements still retain praise worthiness
On December 24 2015 15:30 Highgamer wrote:
Are the statistics that we could use really reliable if the said factors and others mentioned above (like the factor map, map-pool in certain eras) are not reflected in them or cannot be discriminated?
nope mappool/race favoritism of then-metagame/strats must be taken into account.
|
In allied games such as 2v2,3v3,4v4 games do units with splash damage effect allies units?
|
|
|
On December 25 2015 03:32 JadeFist wrote:
Yes.
Okay thank you and I thought so, I was just making sure! 
|
Two questions regarding TvT:
1.
What would be a better way to prevent BBS: Build Barracks at 10 supply or send an early scout (at 10 supply? or maybe earlier?).
2.
If you go for a 1 rax FE TvT, how do you react to any fast vulture build? I see pro-gamers place their barracks below the bunker, but they still leave an opening where vultures can get through. How would they react to a vulture runby?
|
Can anyone that can speak korean help me with this?
What does this say? I'm trying to log in on my account on fish server. Has my account been terminated?
![[image loading]](http://i65.tinypic.com/2ciim51.jpg)
edit: Yes, my account has been deleted due to inactivity.
edit2: Can anyone share 투혼 (and maybe some other maps) with me? I keep getting kicked from game lobbies because I have to download it. I have searched teamliquid and have downloaded the maps at https://www.fishbattle.net/index.php?mid=community_mapdata&category=551442 and a map pack but to no avail.
|
On December 25 2015 09:47 LetaBot wrote:
Two questions regarding TvT:
1.
What would be a better way to prevent BBS: Build Barracks at 10 supply or send an early scout (at 10 supply? or maybe earlier?).
2.
If you go for a 1 rax FE TvT, how do you react to any fast vulture build? I see pro-gamers place their barracks below the bunker, but they still leave an opening where vultures can get through. How would they react to a vulture runby?
to 1.
I guess your bot has no good SCV control for a standard 11 Rax opening? Because usually you just pull the majority of your workers to your ramp and defend until you got a bunker up at the top of it, after you see the early marines entering your base.
If I remember correctly, a 10 Rax should get you ca. one marine more than a 11 Rax and the first marine will be done around the same time the first marine from the BBS enters your base (assuming proxy BBS on FS). 10 Rax is probably easier, because I think you can hold without the need for SCV micro, because you can build a bunker during the time the first marines fight each other while you would still have to pull scvs if you scout early because the first marine arrives before you have anything and your first rax is later because of the early scout.
to 2.
I assume you mean a speed vulture build? If they know it is coming they just block the remaining opening with a supply depot or ebay and wait for their tanks/vultures. So scouting is important. If you don't know anything about your opponent you should preemptively block it when they could have speed.
|
On December 24 2015 12:25 TheGreatOne wrote:Show nested quote +On December 24 2015 07:21 vOdToasT wrote:On December 23 2015 21:38 TheGreatOne wrote:
Would everyone agree that Terran is somehow slightly stronger than zerg and zerg is slightly stronger than protoss in overall statistics?As well as championships won wouldn't it be Terran,Zerg, then protoss in order of most championships won by them races? No, every one would not agree on that. The facts, however, are that it depends on the map. Just look at statistics for different maps during the SOSPA era and you can see for yourself. Thus, the strongest race is the one with the most favourable maps in the current map pool. Blue Storm is an example of a map which favours Protoss in both match ups, but especially versus Zerg. I base my opinion off of overall championships won by each race.
Like I said:
Thus, the strongest race is the one with the most favourable maps in the current map pool.
Not to mention that the people who won multiple championships did so because they were superior players, not because their race was superior. They are statistical outliers.
If Terran wins 55% of the time against Zerg on a map, but a player wins 70% of the time against Zerg, and wins multiple tournaments, then he's clearly doing something more than just playing Terran.
And winning as a Protoss during the age of the six dragons, or when the corsair DT was a thing meant less than winning as a Protoss now, because the strategic state of the game favoured Protoss at that time. Protoss was ahead in evolution.
At one point, I read a statistical analysis which stated that Terran won less than 50% of their TvP games if Flash was not counted. If he was counted, then they won more than 50%. It's possible that only Terran allows for the kind of domination that Flash enjoyed - that Terran truly is the best race. But at the high level only attained by Flash, we don't know what the game is truly like. We don't know whether or not a Protoss user who was just as good as Flash, but who's nature was more suited to the Protoss race rather than the Terran one, would have dominated just as much.
When you just look at the number of tournaments won, you are missing all of the above.
However, if you want to pretend that Fighting Spirit is the only map, then you can safely conclude that Terran is the best, at the very least in the current strategic environment.. Post kespa statistics support this.
|
Clearly maps play a part.Could it be said that despite the maps or that the maps have always been Terran>Zerg>Protoss.Could this be because maps just usually tend to favor the typical t>z>p equation.Of course maps could favor it any other way around but they don't.Overall statistics would say this right?You can't count out the fact that just simply saying the balance of races play a part just as important as maps do.
|
The biggest problem with going bio TvP is storm and scarabs. But what about using dropships to quickly gather all the bio units targeted by storm or scarab.
Bots can definitely pull it off on time, maybe high apm terran players as well. Would this work, or is there something that protoss can do against it?
|
Kau
Canada3500 Posts
Wouldn't storms still destroy dropships pretty handily?
|
On December 30 2015 09:07 LetaBot wrote:
The biggest problem with going bio TvP is storm and scarabs. But what about using dropships to quickly gather all the bio units targeted by storm or scarab.
Bots can definitely pull it off on time, maybe high apm terran players as well. Would this work, or is there something that protoss can do against it?
Never tried but my guess is that price (will delay your bio push significantly) + consistency for pulling this off + risk of your dropshit dying to storm + dragoons or just straight up dragoons + the firepower you lose when units get picked up makes it sound like a really difficult thing to pull.
|
|
|
|
|
|
EPT
