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On December 31 2015 01:44 TheGreatOne wrote:Show nested quote +On December 29 2015 11:15 vOdToasT wrote:On December 24 2015 12:25 TheGreatOne wrote:On December 24 2015 07:21 vOdToasT wrote:On December 23 2015 21:38 TheGreatOne wrote:
Would everyone agree that Terran is somehow slightly stronger than zerg and zerg is slightly stronger than protoss in overall statistics?As well as championships won wouldn't it be Terran,Zerg, then protoss in order of most championships won by them races? No, every one would not agree on that. The facts, however, are that it depends on the map. Just look at statistics for different maps during the SOSPA era and you can see for yourself. Thus, the strongest race is the one with the most favourable maps in the current map pool. Blue Storm is an example of a map which favours Protoss in both match ups, but especially versus Zerg. I base my opinion off of overall championships won by each race. Like I said: Thus, the strongest race is the one with the most favourable maps in the current map pool. Not to mention that the people who won multiple championships did so because they were superior players, not because their race was superior. They are statistical outliers. If Terran wins 55% of the time against Zerg on a map, but a player wins 70% of the time against Zerg, and wins multiple tournaments, then he's clearly doing something more than just playing Terran. And winning as a Protoss during the age of the six dragons, or when the corsair DT was a thing meant less than winning as a Protoss now, because the strategic state of the game favoured Protoss at that time. Protoss was ahead in evolution. At one point, I read a statistical analysis which stated that Terran won less than 50% of their TvP games if Flash was not counted. If he was counted, then they won more than 50%. It's possible that only Terran allows for the kind of domination that Flash enjoyed - that Terran truly is the best race. But at the high level only attained by Flash, we don't know what the game is truly like. We don't know whether or not a Protoss user who was just as good as Flash, but who's nature was more suited to the Protoss race rather than the Terran one, would have dominated just as much. When you just look at the number of tournaments won, you are missing all of the above. However, if you want to pretend that Fighting Spirit is the only map, then you can safely conclude that Terran is the best, at the very least in the current strategic environment.. Post kespa statistics support this. Clearly maps play a part.Could it be said that despite the maps or that the maps have always been Terran>Zerg>Protoss.Could this be because maps just usually tend to favor the typical t>z>p equation.Of course maps could favor it any other way around but they don't.Overall statistics would say this right?You can't count out the fact that just simply saying the balance of races play a part just as important as maps do.I know I already posted this but I just wanted too quote Voddy and refer this reply too him specifically.
One way to think of balance is to look at how each race does on every map of the current map pool, and giving the crown to whoever has the highest number of and the most severe favored match ups.
If we look at it this way, then in the beginning (I am skipping the time before the last balance patch, so not technically the beginning), Protoss had an advantage over Terran, Terran had an advantage over Zerg, and Zerg had an advantage over Protoss, around 55 - 65% depending on the map.
Eventually this changed. Protoss vs Terran became close to 50, with the occasional 1 - 5% advantage to Protoss.
ZvP became like this as well after Bisu revolutionized it, and even favoured Protoss for a short while (PvT was also a breeze during this time).
ZvP changed back to being Zerg favoured during the swarm season, although not as bad as it used to be, and then it went back to being more balanced.
At one point, ZvT was Zerg favoured, when crazy zerg was a new build and Terrans weren't good at dealing with it.
I missed a few periods, but the point is, it's changed a lot over time.
Currently, there is no official map pool in rotation, so determining balance has to be done on a map to map basis, or within the context of a tournament's map pool.
A few examples:
Fighting Spirit, on the korean level, is Terran favoured. Terran has a statistical advantage in TvZ and TvP.
On the foreigner level however, it seems completely balanced. We're just not good enough, especially not our non zergs.
Blue Storm, on the other hand, is Protoss favoured in both match ups.
Bloody Ridge is Protoss favoured in PvZ, but not in PvT.
When Blue Storm was used in korean pro leagues, it was Zerg favoured, but the game has evolved since then.
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Thanks very much for that link, great read (despite the glorification-overload ^^).
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I have a simple question about iccup:
Can me and my friend (not on lan) play 1v1 games on if we set the gamemode to melee? Or is this behaviour punished there?
I read the rules but couldnt make it out if that is so.
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On January 06 2016 02:23 julius33 wrote:
I have a simple question about iccup:
Can me and my friend (not on lan) play 1v1 games on if we set the gamemode to melee? Or is this behaviour punished there?
I read the rules but couldnt make it out if that is so.
You can play melee but ladder points are not awarded for that game mode.
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On January 06 2016 02:23 julius33 wrote:
I have a simple question about iccup:
Can me and my friend (not on lan) play 1v1 games on if we set the gamemode to melee? Or is this behaviour punished there?
I read the rules but couldnt make it out if that is so.
You can play what ever map you want on what ever game mode you want with who ever you want, matey
Good luck and have fun
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On January 06 2016 04:19 vOdToasT wrote:Show nested quote +On January 06 2016 02:23 julius33 wrote:
I have a simple question about iccup:
Can me and my friend (not on lan) play 1v1 games on if we set the gamemode to melee? Or is this behaviour punished there?
I read the rules but couldnt make it out if that is so. You can play what ever map you want on what ever game mode you want with who ever you want, matey Good luck and have fun
Thank you for the response!
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In TvT, when a player decided to push against a tank line, why isn't the floating barracks landed in order to take the firsts hits of the enemy siege tanks? This would allow the vulture to come up close to the siege tanks without getting taking down before they get there.
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People might just not think of that - or they don't want to have to lift the rax again during the battle, but also not forget and lose it as a spotter (or as the necessary tech branch to build more factories).
But I think it's more likely that it's just much harder to hit the right timing: If you send in some a-moved vultures or other units to tank the shots, the opponent's tanks will always fire at those first, even if you move the units you don't want to be hit right behind them. But if you land your rax or building just a split-second too late (or: move your units a little too early), the tanks will prioritize the vultures/tanks that you don't want to get hit, anyways. (edit: or if you move your units too late, the rax will only tank the first shot, then the opponent's tanks will re-aim at your units, when some sacrificial vultures might tank another shot)
Maybe someone has another idea.
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On January 07 2016 02:30 LetaBot wrote:
In TvT, when a player decided to push against a tank line, why isn't the floating barracks landed in order to take the firsts hits of the enemy siege tanks? This would allow the vulture to come up close to the siege tanks without getting taking down before they get there.
i would think the AI is actually capable of doing this much more precisely than human players. have you not run mock battles to try that out? (note sometimes you have to take into account the terrain, unbuildable terrain, chokepoints etc.)
though i think the rax still serves a better purpose as a spotter for tanks, until wraiths come into play.
would be best if the AI learns how to execute things like, lifting and lowering the rax into the enemy nat to block their forces while doing a drop in their main (like humans can do effectively on certain map/positions)
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Japan11892 Posts
I think I've seen pros do that before but a lot of the times no-man's land between lines have inadequate or no landing spots at all i.e. Circuit Breakers' open area.
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On January 05 2016 03:00 vOdToasT wrote:Show nested quote +On December 31 2015 01:44 TheGreatOne wrote:On December 29 2015 11:15 vOdToasT wrote:On December 24 2015 12:25 TheGreatOne wrote:On December 24 2015 07:21 vOdToasT wrote:On December 23 2015 21:38 TheGreatOne wrote:
Would everyone agree that Terran is somehow slightly stronger than zerg and zerg is slightly stronger than protoss in overall statistics?As well as championships won wouldn't it be Terran,Zerg, then protoss in order of most championships won by them races? No, every one would not agree on that. The facts, however, are that it depends on the map. Just look at statistics for different maps during the SOSPA era and you can see for yourself. Thus, the strongest race is the one with the most favourable maps in the current map pool. Blue Storm is an example of a map which favours Protoss in both match ups, but especially versus Zerg. I base my opinion off of overall championships won by each race. Like I said: Thus, the strongest race is the one with the most favourable maps in the current map pool. Not to mention that the people who won multiple championships did so because they were superior players, not because their race was superior. They are statistical outliers. If Terran wins 55% of the time against Zerg on a map, but a player wins 70% of the time against Zerg, and wins multiple tournaments, then he's clearly doing something more than just playing Terran. And winning as a Protoss during the age of the six dragons, or when the corsair DT was a thing meant less than winning as a Protoss now, because the strategic state of the game favoured Protoss at that time. Protoss was ahead in evolution. At one point, I read a statistical analysis which stated that Terran won less than 50% of their TvP games if Flash was not counted. If he was counted, then they won more than 50%. It's possible that only Terran allows for the kind of domination that Flash enjoyed - that Terran truly is the best race. But at the high level only attained by Flash, we don't know what the game is truly like. We don't know whether or not a Protoss user who was just as good as Flash, but who's nature was more suited to the Protoss race rather than the Terran one, would have dominated just as much. When you just look at the number of tournaments won, you are missing all of the above. However, if you want to pretend that Fighting Spirit is the only map, then you can safely conclude that Terran is the best, at the very least in the current strategic environment.. Post kespa statistics support this. Clearly maps play a part.Could it be said that despite the maps or that the maps have always been Terran>Zerg>Protoss.Could this be because maps just usually tend to favor the typical t>z>p equation.Of course maps could favor it any other way around but they don't.Overall statistics would say this right?You can't count out the fact that just simply saying the balance of races play a part just as important as maps do.I know I already posted this but I just wanted too quote Voddy and refer this reply too him specifically. One way to think of balance is to look at how each race does on every map of the current map pool, and giving the crown to whoever has the highest number of and the most severe favored match ups. If we look at it this way, then in the beginning (I am skipping the time before the last balance patch, so not technically the beginning), Protoss had an advantage over Terran, Terran had an advantage over Zerg, and Zerg had an advantage over Protoss, around 55 - 65% depending on the map. Eventually this changed. Protoss vs Terran became close to 50, with the occasional 1 - 5% advantage to Protoss. ZvP became like this as well after Bisu revolutionized it, and even favoured Protoss for a short while (PvT was also a breeze during this time). ZvP changed back to being Zerg favoured during the swarm season, although not as bad as it used to be, and then it went back to being more balanced. At one point, ZvT was Zerg favoured, when crazy zerg was a new build and Terrans weren't good at dealing with it. I missed a few periods, but the point is, it's changed a lot over time. Currently, there is no official map pool in rotation, so determining balance has to be done on a map to map basis, or within the context of a tournament's map pool. A few examples: Fighting Spirit, on the korean level, is Terran favoured. Terran has a statistical advantage in TvZ and TvP. On the foreigner level however, it seems completely balanced. We're just not good enough, especially not our non zergs. Blue Storm, on the other hand, is Protoss favoured in both match ups. Bloody Ridge is Protoss favoured in PvZ, but not in PvT. When Blue Storm was used in korean pro leagues, it was Zerg favoured, but the game has evolved since then.
I agree and change my mind.I think Brood War is very closely balanced indeed! 
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Does anyone know why sometimes if you a-move a unit that's already attacking something they'll walk a little bit before continuing to attack, and sometimes they'll stay put? Is there any pattern?
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feel theres probably some underlying technical aspects for that question (target acquisition/cancelling attack animations etc)...
i think not spamming a-move when a unit is attacking something should make them stay put usually.
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On January 11 2016 18:56 Probemicro wrote:
feel theres probably some underlying technical aspects for that question (target acquisition/cancelling attack animations etc)...
i think not spamming a-move when a unit is attacking something should make them stay put usually.
I'm looking to see if someone already figured out how these things work. Speculation is all I have as well.
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you asked for a pattern
the pattern is that units will start the "walk a little bit before continuing to attack" routine if you contantly spam a move in a direction.
thats not speculation, its an actual observation. you can try it out and see yourself that its indeed that way.
for techincal details yeah you have to wait for a programmer or someone with BW engine expertise.
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On January 11 2016 20:11 Probemicro wrote:
you asked for a pattern
the pattern is that units will start the "walk a little bit before continuing to attack" routine if you contantly spam a move in a direction.
thats not speculation, its an actual observation. you can try it out and see yourself that its indeed that way.
for techincal details yeah you have to wait for a programmer or someone with BW engine expertise.
You can't call a pattern if it's not consistent. If you spam a-move they'll sometimes do it, sometimes keep attacking. I wanna know the pattern, aka what is the variable that's considered in deciding if the units will do it or not, assuming there is even one, which is just speculation at this point.
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On January 11 2016 20:34 Scarbo wrote:Show nested quote +On January 11 2016 20:11 Probemicro wrote:
you asked for a pattern
the pattern is that units will start the "walk a little bit before continuing to attack" routine if you contantly spam a move in a direction.
thats not speculation, its an actual observation. you can try it out and see yourself that its indeed that way.
for techincal details yeah you have to wait for a programmer or someone with BW engine expertise. You can't call a pattern if it's not consistent. If you spam a-move they'll sometimes do it, sometimes keep attacking. I wanna know the pattern, aka what is the variable that's considered in deciding if the units will do it or not, assuming there is even one, which is just speculation at this point.
im pretty sure its consistent last i checked (i did it with a goliath within range of an enemy building, i see no movement with just simple amove and see constant move routine when amove spam). perhaps it may vary from unit to unit due to different preattack/attack animations or some other technical reason.
still its a real observation from actual testing, not wanton imagination/speculation. unless you are telling me your apm is trash you cannot spam amove so you can't see it
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On January 11 2016 20:36 Probemicro wrote:Show nested quote +On January 11 2016 20:34 Scarbo wrote:On January 11 2016 20:11 Probemicro wrote:
you asked for a pattern
the pattern is that units will start the "walk a little bit before continuing to attack" routine if you contantly spam a move in a direction.
thats not speculation, its an actual observation. you can try it out and see yourself that its indeed that way.
for techincal details yeah you have to wait for a programmer or someone with BW engine expertise. You can't call a pattern if it's not consistent. If you spam a-move they'll sometimes do it, sometimes keep attacking. I wanna know the pattern, aka what is the variable that's considered in deciding if the units will do it or not, assuming there is even one, which is just speculation at this point. im pretty sure its consistent last i checked (i did it with a goliath within range of an enemy building, i see no movement with just simple amove and see constant move routine when amove spam). perhaps it may vary from unit to unit due to different preattack/attack animations or some other technical reason. still its a real observation from actual testing, not wanton imagination/speculation. unless you are telling me your apm is trash you cannot spam amove so you can't see it
Is your ego that small that you need to attack me over a simple word choice? Lol. I should've known you're prone to starting flame wars when I saw you had almost 3k posts in less than 2 years.
Anyways, in your last post you provide new information that's not on the first one, which is that the movement of units depends on how fast you a-move. I didn't realize that so thanks I guess.
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On January 11 2016 20:53 Scarbo wrote:Show nested quote +On January 11 2016 20:36 Probemicro wrote:On January 11 2016 20:34 Scarbo wrote:On January 11 2016 20:11 Probemicro wrote:
you asked for a pattern
the pattern is that units will start the "walk a little bit before continuing to attack" routine if you contantly spam a move in a direction.
thats not speculation, its an actual observation. you can try it out and see yourself that its indeed that way.
for techincal details yeah you have to wait for a programmer or someone with BW engine expertise. You can't call a pattern if it's not consistent. If you spam a-move they'll sometimes do it, sometimes keep attacking. I wanna know the pattern, aka what is the variable that's considered in deciding if the units will do it or not, assuming there is even one, which is just speculation at this point. im pretty sure its consistent last i checked (i did it with a goliath within range of an enemy building, i see no movement with just simple amove and see constant move routine when amove spam). perhaps it may vary from unit to unit due to different preattack/attack animations or some other technical reason. still its a real observation from actual testing, not wanton imagination/speculation. unless you are telling me your apm is trash you cannot spam amove so you can't see it Is your ego that small that you need to attack me over a simple word choice? Lol. I should've known you're prone to starting flame wars when I saw you had almost 3k posts in less than 2 years. Anyways, in your last post you provide new information that's not on the first one, which is that the movement of units depends on how fast you a-move. I didn't realize that so thanks I guess.
you not knowing what pattern means, not understanding an observation and needing someone (who actually go through the trouble of entering BW to test it out for you) to tell you clearly = starting flame wars
ok. guess thats what you get being helpful. never knew BW posters to be so ungrateful
and what has post count got to do with it? that are many posters with more posts than that in a shorter timeframe. and never cared about collecting posts in this forum and not in any forum unlike the usual forum dwellers
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Certain bugs may not be able to be fixed.Like scarab pathing,rally points to work everytime,dragoon pathing as well(dragoons quit stalling on me)! Lol.
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EPT
