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Kau
Canada3500 Posts
@Probemicro It seems that your definition of pattern is different from Scarbo's. By your definition, you have two possible causes: spamming a-move vs not spamming a-move. The consistent pattern you see is that spamming causes the unnecessary walking.
Scarbo on the other hand thinks it could be more than those two causes. It could be one of the following (non-exhaustive):
- a-move just before attack animation
- a-move mid attack animation
- a-move just after attack animation
- a-move just before cooldown animation
- a-move just after cooldown animation
- etc.
So just like how a dragoon freezing up is dependent on a consistent event happening, Scarbo is wondering if there is a consistent event that unnecessary walking depends on. Spamming a-move could only hit the event sometimes (making it seem inconsistent).
In any event, you could be kinder in your responses. If you don't feel like answering a question nicely then maybe leave it to someone else.
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I've noticed that Dragoons often freeze up when their A-clicked target leaves their range mid-animation, or sometimes even after they shoot once, the Dragoon stays put. This happens with scouting SCVs way too often -_-;
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On January 05 2016 03:00 vOdToasT wrote:Show nested quote +On December 31 2015 01:44 TheGreatOne wrote:On December 29 2015 11:15 vOdToasT wrote:On December 24 2015 12:25 TheGreatOne wrote:On December 24 2015 07:21 vOdToasT wrote:On December 23 2015 21:38 TheGreatOne wrote:
Would everyone agree that Terran is somehow slightly stronger than zerg and zerg is slightly stronger than protoss in overall statistics?As well as championships won wouldn't it be Terran,Zerg, then protoss in order of most championships won by them races? No, every one would not agree on that. The facts, however, are that it depends on the map. Just look at statistics for different maps during the SOSPA era and you can see for yourself. Thus, the strongest race is the one with the most favourable maps in the current map pool. Blue Storm is an example of a map which favours Protoss in both match ups, but especially versus Zerg. I base my opinion off of overall championships won by each race. Like I said: Thus, the strongest race is the one with the most favourable maps in the current map pool. Not to mention that the people who won multiple championships did so because they were superior players, not because their race was superior. They are statistical outliers. If Terran wins 55% of the time against Zerg on a map, but a player wins 70% of the time against Zerg, and wins multiple tournaments, then he's clearly doing something more than just playing Terran. And winning as a Protoss during the age of the six dragons, or when the corsair DT was a thing meant less than winning as a Protoss now, because the strategic state of the game favoured Protoss at that time. Protoss was ahead in evolution. At one point, I read a statistical analysis which stated that Terran won less than 50% of their TvP games if Flash was not counted. If he was counted, then they won more than 50%. It's possible that only Terran allows for the kind of domination that Flash enjoyed - that Terran truly is the best race. But at the high level only attained by Flash, we don't know what the game is truly like. We don't know whether or not a Protoss user who was just as good as Flash, but who's nature was more suited to the Protoss race rather than the Terran one, would have dominated just as much. When you just look at the number of tournaments won, you are missing all of the above. However, if you want to pretend that Fighting Spirit is the only map, then you can safely conclude that Terran is the best, at the very least in the current strategic environment.. Post kespa statistics support this. Clearly maps play a part.Could it be said that despite the maps or that the maps have always been Terran>Zerg>Protoss.Could this be because maps just usually tend to favor the typical t>z>p equation.Of course maps could favor it any other way around but they don't.Overall statistics would say this right?You can't count out the fact that just simply saying the balance of races play a part just as important as maps do.I know I already posted this but I just wanted too quote Voddy and refer this reply too him specifically. One way to think of balance is to look at how each race does on every map of the current map pool, and giving the crown to whoever has the highest number of and the most severe favored match ups. If we look at it this way, then in the beginning (I am skipping the time before the last balance patch, so not technically the beginning), Protoss had an advantage over Terran, Terran had an advantage over Zerg, and Zerg had an advantage over Protoss, around 55 - 65% depending on the map. Eventually this changed. Protoss vs Terran became close to 50, with the occasional 1 - 5% advantage to Protoss. ZvP became like this as well after Bisu revolutionized it, and even favoured Protoss for a short while (PvT was also a breeze during this time). ZvP changed back to being Zerg favoured during the swarm season, although not as bad as it used to be, and then it went back to being more balanced. At one point, ZvT was Zerg favoured, when crazy zerg was a new build and Terrans weren't good at dealing with it. I missed a few periods, but the point is, it's changed a lot over time. Currently, there is no official map pool in rotation, so determining balance has to be done on a map to map basis, or within the context of a tournament's map pool. A few examples: Fighting Spirit, on the korean level, is Terran favoured. Terran has a statistical advantage in TvZ and TvP. On the foreigner level however, it seems completely balanced. We're just not good enough, especially not our non zergs. Blue Storm, on the other hand, is Protoss favoured in both match ups. Bloody Ridge is Protoss favoured in PvZ, but not in PvT. When Blue Storm was used in korean pro leagues, it was Zerg favoured, but the game has evolved since then.
Sorry admins but i'm quoting this twice. All I have to say is Terran>Zerg>Protoss in overall championships won by each race.If unit/building balance doesn't apply here I don't know what does.Maps clearly play a part to and the history of each individual map.(Statistical map statistics apply here as well)!
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On January 12 2016 05:06 Kau wrote:@Probemicro It seems that your definition of pattern is different from Scarbo's. By your definition, you have two possible causes: spamming a-move vs not spamming a-move. The consistent pattern you see is that spamming causes the unnecessary walking. Scarbo on the other hand thinks it could be more than those two causes. It could be one of the following (non-exhaustive): - a-move just before attack animation
- a-move mid attack animation
- a-move just after attack animation
- a-move just before cooldown animation
- a-move just after cooldown animation
- etc.
So just like how a dragoon freezing up is dependent on a consistent event happening, Scarbo is wondering if there is a consistent event that unnecessary walking depends on. Spamming a-move could only hit the event sometimes (making it seem inconsistent).
i don't think theres such thing as "cooldown animation", cooldown is just simply, cooldown, an idle state or set of time where a unit ceases any attack routines after finishing its attack animation. theres "pre-attack animation" and "attack animation" afaik
btw i did another simple test again, this time spamming A click on an enemy building (pressing A and directly clicking on a building, obviously different from A move). Interestingly the goliath do not undergo that unnecessary walking like it did with the a move spam! It remained stationary. So now my conjecture is that "unnecessary walking" behaviour has something to do with the mechanics/routine of the A move command, and not necessarily about animations. because if its only animation related, you will see that behaviour with both amove spam and aclick spam.
(not saying animation no longer has anything to do with it, but now i think that the act of Amove itself is significant factor in why they undergo that behaviour. If you noticed the units will undergo that behaviour in that direction of where you planted the amove target.)
i think the only 100% rigorous scientific response you can get is if someone with access to BW source code tell us so. in other words, no one other than a handful of blizz programmers maybe. Those are the kind of response that would truly be satisfactory, especially for scientifically/programming inclined people. Even interesting posts with sorta similar basis like this Infinite range sunken pretty much relies on observations and conjectures, nothing rigorous or detailed about it.
On January 12 2016 07:20 Jealous wrote:
I've noticed that Dragoons often freeze up when their A-clicked target leaves their range mid-animation, or sometimes even after they shoot once, the Dragoon stays put. This happens with scouting SCVs way too often -_-;
pretty sure every protoss player has seen this happen to them (dragoon seem most susceptible to it). most do not know the exact cause, but know that pressing stop will release them from their "freeze".
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In TvZ, when the Terran pushes out with a Science vessel + tanks + M&M:
Why do terrans go for the main + natural of the zerg instead of the third gas base?
Isn't the third gas less defended?
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Some reasons I can think of:
Zerg can generally have a nydus up at the far away 3rd in time to defend with swarm and potentially all the units from the main.
Breaking the 3rd is nice and puts you very far ahead, but breaking the natural/main is almost always a game-ender right there.
The distance to the 3rd is further most of the time.
Most importantly (i guess): Pushing towards the 3rd would mean leaving your natural/main fairly unguarded against a possible counter-push with swarm. Zerg could just sac the 3rd for that possible game-ending blow (or still do quite fine there with swarm-defense).
So pushing the nat/main achieves more goals generally (offensive, defensive, map-control), and if you send out the next group of M&M in time to the 3rd it can at least often stall the (alternate natural) 4th from going up.
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Would Brood War be to easy and not much of a challenge if somehow Blizzard made it to where you could double click buildings and it would select multiple buildings?(10+)Or if we could just make one big drag and select 100 units or something?
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On January 12 2016 16:59 J-dawg wrote:
Would Brood War be to easy and not much of a challenge if somehow Blizzard made it to where you could double click buildings and it would select multiple buildings?(10+)Or if we could just make one big drag and select 100 units or something?
Definitely not
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Why do most pro-gamer not build a single or perhaps several wraiths to harass overlords? The lurker/ling army doesn't have any anti-air, so the zerg would be forced to spend minerals on spore colonies or go for hydralisks, thus reducing their lurker count. Well worth the cost of a single wraith.
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a single wraith dies to a single pair of scourge. normally zerg goes standard 3 hatch muta and often has some mutas left so these can easily kill the wraith. if terran goes standard 4 rax 3 tank 1 vessel push, there isnt really time to make several wraith, unless he weakens his push. making wraith means fewer dropships and vessels.
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lol i imagine ZvT metagame for AIs is mass ling lurkers, letabot does not anticipate 3hatchmuta simply because opposing zerg AI do not know how to do the standard muta micro hence they go for ling/lurker...
(i think its a pity there has been no big development in zerg ai since berkeley overmind 5-6 years ago? 2015-2016 and its sad that its still mostly early pool bots nowadays...)
anyway
midgame the only time for terran to make wraiths is if they are going SK style (hence have 2 starports) and zerg is morphing guardians behind the nat in FS. and even then zerg may accompany the guardian with mutas/scourges/1 devourer maybe, proper (stack) micro is required or they die easily.
and depending on the situation (have enough vessels,guardians moving to open ground, etc) you only need a few wraiths or no wraiths may even be required.
the only other usage for wraiths is being a (somewhat?) viable response to queens in mech tvz.
(of course theres leta 2port earlygame)
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On January 15 2016 11:13 Bakuryu wrote:
a single wraith dies to a single pair of scourge. normally zerg goes standard 3 hatch muta and often has some mutas left so these can easily kill the wraith. if terran goes standard 4 rax 3 tank 1 vessel push, there isnt really time to make several wraith, unless he weakens his push. making wraith means fewer dropships and vessels.
wraiths controlled by AI can turn around fast enough to escape mutalisks/scourge unless surrounded ofc.
The same could be said of dropships unloading marines in time to kill the scourge chasing it though. If you consider unlimited apm, which would you pick (considering SK terran) and why: Science vessel, dropship, wraith .
On January 15 2016 11:26 Probemicro wrote:
lol i imagine ZvT metagame for AIs is mass ling lurkers, letabot does not anticipate 3hatchmuta simply because opposing zerg AI do not know how to do the standard muta micro hence they go for ling/lurker...
(i think its a pity there has been no big development in zerg ai since berkeley overmind 5-6 years ago? 2015-2016 and its sad that its still mostly early pool bots nowadays...)
anyway
midgame the only time for terran to make wraiths is if they are going SK style (hence have 2 starports) and zerg is morphing guardians behind the nat in FS. and even then zerg may accompany the guardian with mutas/scourges/1 devourer maybe, proper (stack) micro is required or they die easily.
and depending on the situation (have enough vessels,guardians moving to open ground, etc) you only need a few wraiths or no wraiths may even be required.
the only other usage for wraiths is being a (somewhat?) viable response to queens in mech tvz.
Early pool bots are already phasing out. The best bot currently in the SSCAI ( Student StarCraft AI tournament) is a 3 hatch lurker bot. The latest version of LetaBot can deal with it, but the one in the tournament cannot.
I am currently watching a game from the C-OSL Ro16 where Scan's push is defeated by a guardian switch from the zerg. Is it in the 1 port case ( tank/vessel/M&M push) a good idea to go for a wraith instead of a second vessel so that you can still push, or is it better to pull back and increase the vessel count?
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in skterran play by humans, vessels can be seen as the unit to win in the lategame, because they kill more the longer the game goes on and dropships can be seen as the unit to win in the midgame, because their use is only for a short time until zerg to prepared with sunkens/lings/scourge and wraiths arent used as i said earlier. with unlimited apm, you can technically do everything you want, i have no idea whats best but if you are able to avoid all mutas/scourge with wraith and take no damage, they seem the best solution.
when guards are used only for defence, terran tends to keep making vessels (better for lategame) and when the guards are at your nat killing scvs, terran tends to make wraith so they can kill the guards faster.
for AI... no idea.
if you want to incorporate wraith so hard you could just use a fast vessel build with 1 wraith before that or use some variation of the kitchen sink build to get mass wraiths.... or just 2 port wraith
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On January 15 2016 12:07 LetaBot wrote:
I am currently watching a game from the C-OSL Ro16 where Scan's push is defeated by a guardian switch from the zerg. Is it in the 1 port case ( tank/vessel/M&M push) a good idea to go for a wraith instead of a second vessel so that you can still push, or is it better to pull back and increase the vessel count?
if they are using them to defend a base, you have to pull back unless the zerg decides to dumbly move his guardians over open ground. note that eventually these guardians will start moving over open ground so your MM can deal with them as well.
if zerg exercise their option to go greater spire after getting hive tech, usually zerg will morph around half a group of mutas (or whatever that is remaining of their group after the initial earlygame) into guardians either to
pressure the terran nat or to deny the MM push to help secure their 3rd/4th. they will accompany them with some antiair ie. scourges.
terran response depends on how committed zerg is towards guardians and how conscientious one has been in making vessels and keeping them alive. if zerg is just converting his remaining mutas into guardians and hovering them near the terran nat without building anymore guardians or pushing further, the few vessels you have and a few properly microed wraiths should be enough to deal with it.
if zerg seems to be massing guardians, you properly need to get a second starport and mass wraiths asap. also at the same time get some MM to pressure zerg base since they spend all their resource on (slow) spire units.
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Ok thanks for the tips. Don't know what the kitchen sink build is though.
One last question for now: Is there a BO that can hard counter 2 port wraith? Against iloveoov Fake Mech ( fast 1 port ) you can hard counter with 13 pool muta. Would such a BO also work against a fast 2 port?
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http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/brood-war/220358-msl-ro16-spoilers-evil-build
there is no real hard counter for 2 port wraith if you have good AI control with them. just need to scout 2 hatch hydra or 2 hatch lurker and prepare accordingly.
im not sure what your 13 pool muta is. Is it 12 hatch, then gas then pool 2 hatch muta or is it 12 pool 11 gas 11(or 12) hatch 2 hatch muta?
but well, you can 2 port vs both, just make sure you make 1 vult so zerg needs sunken.
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how well does the AI micro wraiths now? is it similar to Berkeley Overmind?
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On January 15 2016 13:26 Bakuryu wrote:http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/brood-war/220358-msl-ro16-spoilers-evil-buildthere is no real hard counter for 2 port wraith if you have good AI control with them. just need to scout 2 hatch hydra or 2 hatch lurker and prepare accordingly. im not sure what your 13 pool muta is. Is it 12 hatch, then gas then pool 2 hatch muta or is it 12 pool 11 gas 11(or 12) hatch 2 hatch muta? but well, you can 2 port vs both, just make sure you make 1 vult so zerg needs sunken.
 13 Pool Muta (vs. Terran)
Almost like the 12 pool, but you go for one more drone before pool.
On January 15 2016 13:35 Probemicro wrote:
how well does the AI micro wraiths now? is it similar to Berkeley Overmind?
Originally I wanted to make the Terran Berkeley overmind, where you would see mass wraiths controlled like the berkeley overmind does. The biggest problem with going 2 port wraith is the latency when you play on ICCUP. Since you can use the anti-hack, you have to play without lan-latency versus random people on ICCUP. The only way to get lan latency is to agree beforehand that both you and your opponent use the LatencyChanger plugin and host a game with "#L2" at the end.
So that is why I prefer going for wraiths in the early-mid game. Because then you won't have to rely on your wraiths 100%, on top of the lower amount of anti-air due to the lurker/ling production that is needed to stop the Terran push.
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12 pool lair vs 2port wraith: www.youtube.com
wraiths come out about 30 seconds earlier which lets you snipe overlords/drones and screw up zerg's initials muta timing
Against 3 hatch lurker, wraiths (even in small numbers) will actually force hydras or mutas if you can implement perfect patrol micro (scourge useless), but with two port zerg will have a hydra den done by the time the first wraiths arrive
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EPT
