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How to make sunkens have infinite range

Forum Index > BW General
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StRyKeR
Profile Blog Joined January 2006
United States1739 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-10-04 00:46:59
July 02 2009 18:53 GMT
#1
Many of you may have noticed that sunken colonies sometimes exhibit above-average attacking range.

[image loading]
lol wad


In this thread, I will explain why, my friends.

I do not claim that this is very useful or groundbreaking. The aim is to increase understanding of this phenomenon so that one day it might be of use to someone.

I want to emphasize that the trick doesn't work in most circumstances. Please do not think you can stop Terran pushes with this! Also, you CANNOT ATTACK OTHER NEXUSES OR HATCHERIES OR COMMAND CENTERS OR FAR FAR AWAY WORKERS with this method! It works under very specific circumstances.

Some background
Most Starcraft units have pre-attack animation sequences that must be played before the actual attack occurs. For the Marine, it is "holding up the gun". For the Hydralisk, it is "opening the mouth".

[image loading]
Hydralisk pre-attack sequence


For most units, there is only one pre-attack sequence. All subsequent attacks do not require the unit to go through the sequence again. For the Marine, once it holds up its weapon, it does not put it down again. For the Hydralisk, once it opens its mouth, it doesn't have to open it again.

The exception is when the unit has to change targets. If a unit's attack target changes, it must go through its pre-attack sequence again. This phenomenon is most prevalent for the Photon Cannon, whose tower goes up and down constantly as it acquires new targets.

However, there is one unit that goes through its pre-attack sequence every single time it attacks, regardless of whether it has acquired a new target. That is the Sunken Colony. Moreover, the pre-attack sequence is very long. These two facts are the reasons why the Sunken Colony can have infinite range.

The mechanism
From what I've garnered, the Starcraft unit attack AI is as follows.

1) Acquire target in range.
2) Begin pre-attack sequence.
3) Once pre-attack sequence is finished, attack the target.

It all seems fine. Units attack. Units die.

However, it turns out that this sequence is not so bug-free. Suppose we introduce an interrupt between 2) and 3).

1) Acquire target in range.
2) Begin pre-attack sequence.
2.5) Acquire higher priority target.
3) Once pre-attack sequence is finished, attack the target.

In this case, there is no check for whether the higher priority target is in range! So at step 3, the unit attacks the higher priority target, regardless of how far away it is.

How do we create this situation? Easy. By having another enemy target interrupt and accomplish step 2.5.

The interrupt
Please recall the last time you were attack-moving into the enemy. You might have encountered a building. You started hacking away at the building and shifted your attention back to your base to macro. You come back and notice that your units are now attacking other units. What happened?

Basically, your units were attacking a building. Then enemy units came by and started attacking you. The Starcraft unit attack AI is smart enough to recognize that the unit is getting killed, so the unit changes target.

Example
Have you ever noticed a Sunken Colony outrange a cannon? Why does it have longer range? Hint: It's not because it has longer range.

The best use of this information, in my opinion, is to stop a cannon rush. You can build a Sunken Colony outside the range of a cannon and still be able to kill it.


[image loading]
Zerg: omg



[image loading]
Protoss: lol i got this game



[image loading]
Zerg: omgggggg TT doesn't reach gahhhhh



[image loading]
Zerg: lol wad?
Protoss: wow you hacker i'm reporting this



The Sunken Colony is in range of the left Pylon but not the Cannon. Thus, the Cannon cannot hit the Sunken Colony either.

The Sunken Colony does 1) Acquire target in range. The target is the Pylon.

Then it does 2) Begin pre-attack sequence.

But just then, the Cannon attacks the Hatchery and the Sunken Colony does 2.5) Acquire higher priority target. The higher priority target is the Cannon.

The Sunken Colony finally does 3) Once pre-attack sequence is finished, attack the target. Because there was no range check, the Sunken ends up attacking the target, the Photon Cannon, even though it's outside range.

Here is a replay of the example in action! Watching the replay is the best way to get an idea of what's going on.

======================================================
>>> Replay <<<
======================================================

YouTube link of replay (thanks to Kentor):



Requirements
Let's say you want to attack TARGET without getting hit.

Requirement 1: Your Sunken Colony has to be in range of some other enemy unit so that "1) Acquire target in range" is activated. Non-combat units include all non-attacking buildings, medics, etc.

Requirement 2: TARGET must be attacking something close to your Sunken Colony so that "2.5) Acquire higher priority target" is activated. In fact, the close unit can actually be your Sunken Colony (although it's not recommended). From my tests, the Sunken has to be adjacent to that unit. Otherwise, the interrupt is ignored because the Sunken is too far.

If these requirements are met, you don't have to do a thing. The buggy Starcraft unit attack AI will take care of the rest.

Now, your Sunken won't always attack TARGET. That only happens when TARGET interrupts the Sunken's attack AI sequence. But because the Sunken's pre-attack animation sequence is so long, it is pretty likely. Also, you can do Sunken micro by stopping your Sunken and making it attack only when the cannon hits your hatchery during your pre-attack sequence. It's kinda hard though cuz Sunkens don't really hold like Lurkers hold even if you tell it to.

On July 03 2009 06:07 arcology wrote:
This could use some clarifications, we did some testing on this a few years ago in my channel (which I retested just now)
There are only two priorities, combat units and non combat units (medics, buildings etc).
This does not work with a marine (or other combat unit in range) that isn't attacking the sunken, as you claimed.

At least one non combat unit needs to be in range, and no combat units in range (otherwise they will be acquired), and a combat unit attacking the sunken or something adjacent to it from outside its range. The sunken will strike it if the unit attacks during the pre-attack part you described.


Other uses
I have seen Sunken Colonies hit Siege Tanks out of range with this method. Usually though, you'd have to be lucky to be in such a situation. You'd need some unit in range of the Sunken (non-combat unit). You also need the Siege Tank attacking something close to the Sunken (Hatchery, drone, the Sunken itself, etc.).


[image loading]
lol wadddddddddddd


Thanks to patrick321:


[image loading]
huh


Conclusion
This phenomenon is not limited to the Sunken Colony. Any Starcraft unit can have infinite range (possibly except the Lurker and Firebat), because of the existence of the interrupt without range checking. The only reason why the Sunken Colony is special is that it fires its pre-attack sequence every single time it attacks and that the sequence is quite long. The pre-attack sequence is the window in which the interrupt must occur.

This theory also explains the well-known "Zealot killing two marines in one attack" from a long time ago. Basically, the Zealot has a pre-attack sequence before each of its "blades", which are one frame long. What happened was that the first Zealot blade killed the first marine, and during the pre-attack sequence for the second blade, the second marine attacked it, causing the Zealot to change target without checking range, and thereby killing the second marine. I believe that the fact that the first marine was a combat unit doesn't matter because dead unit = non-combat unit.
Ars longa, vita brevis, principia aeturna.
-StrifeX-
Profile Blog Joined April 2007
United States529 Posts
July 02 2009 18:56 GMT
#2
Good write up, I can't get the images to work though.
Plexa
Profile Blog Joined October 2005
Aotearoa39261 Posts
July 02 2009 18:57 GMT
#3
Very interesting thread :O
Should add this to Liquipedia
Administrator~ Spirit will set you free ~
thopol
Profile Blog Joined May 2008
Japan4560 Posts
July 02 2009 18:57 GMT
#4
On July 03 2009 03:56 -StrifeX- wrote:
Good write up, I can't get the images to work though.

Avidkeystamper
Profile Blog Joined June 2008
United States8552 Posts
Last Edited: 2009-07-02 18:58:43
July 02 2009 18:57 GMT
#5
This seems very multitasking intensive to be put to good use but it's useful to know in case of a cannon rush as noted. However, your pictures don't work.
I bet Koreans have known this for 5 years already.
Jaedong
Pufftrees
Profile Joined March 2009
2449 Posts
July 02 2009 18:58 GMT
#6
The images aren't loading properly for me, quite a unique post though.
Chance favors the prepared mind.
samachking
Profile Blog Joined August 2007
Bahrain4949 Posts
July 02 2009 18:58 GMT
#7
Holy Shit, cant you just attack your own lings then switch target to kill the seige tanks? Shit, this has potential for insane abuse and potential to make those mid game pushes even more hell vs T. Im so going to try this

Thanks for the awesome tip.
"And then Earthlings discovered tools. Suddenly agreeing with friends could be a form of suicide or worse. But agreements went on, not for the sake of common sense, or decency, or self preservation, but for friendliness."
Patriot.dlk
Profile Blog Joined October 2004
Sweden5462 Posts
July 02 2009 19:00 GMT
#8
You have troubles getting dropbox to send to the servah. This could be caused by you not closing a document that it's trying to send or something like that :p

restart dropbox if thats not the case
StRyKeR
Profile Blog Joined January 2006
United States1739 Posts
July 02 2009 19:01 GMT
#9
On July 03 2009 03:58 samachking wrote:
Holy Shit, cant you just attack your own lings then switch target to kill the seige tanks? Shit, this has potential for insane abuse and potential to make those mid game pushes even more hell vs T. Im so going to try this

Thanks for the awesome tip.


That doesn't work because force-attacking overrides the Starcraft unit AI. For example, if you force a Hydralisk to attack something, it won't stop even if a Marine starts to interrupt it.
Ars longa, vita brevis, principia aeturna.
Vision
Profile Joined June 2009
United States113 Posts
July 02 2009 19:01 GMT
#10
This is great, but the images don't work. ;{
Let's unite the blizzard community! But you can't actually talk to eachother..... - Luca
Archaic
Profile Blog Joined March 2008
United States4024 Posts
Last Edited: 2009-07-02 19:05:22
July 02 2009 19:01 GMT
#11
I think that I discovered something similar to this mechanic. What I've done before is I have circled a photon cannon (In single player, of course) with overlords within its range. Then I had a zergling running around within its sight range, but just outside of its actual range. And as a result, the cannon simply stopped attacking. Could this be the same basic mechanic in this?
And could this explain that replay (not too long ago, I just forgot where it was) of a dragoon hitting a tank at ridiculous range? i.e. That of a siege tank. It was a dragoon at the bottom of a ramp on python, getting hit with a siege tank, and shooting the tank from its distance, which was at least 2x the regular dragoon range.

On July 03 2009 03:57 Avidkeystamper wrote:
This seems very multitasking intensive to be put to good use but it's useful to know in case of a cannon rush as noted. However, your pictures don't work.
I bet Koreans have known this for 5 years already.

If they did, wouldn't they have been doing so in pro games?


Also, another note, how would it have infinite range? Wouldn't it suggest that the interrupting attack would have to be able to be infinitely far away. Of course in theory infinite range works, but in practice, there is no attack that can possibly work like that, right?
deathgod6
Profile Blog Joined January 2008
United States5064 Posts
July 02 2009 19:04 GMT
#12
Ohhhhhhh very interesting. :D
4.0 GPA = A rank 5.0 GPA = Olympic --------- Bisu, Best, Fantasy. i ♥ oov. They can get in my BoxeR anyday.
StRyKeR
Profile Blog Joined January 2006
United States1739 Posts
July 02 2009 19:05 GMT
#13
On July 03 2009 04:01 Archaic wrote:
I think that I discovered something similar to this mechanic. What I've done before is I have circled a photon cannon (In single player, of course) with overlords within its range. Then I had a zergling running around within its sight range, but just outside of its actual range. And as a result, the cannon simply stopped attacking. Could this be the same basic mechanic in this?
And could this explain that replay (not too long ago, I just forgot where it was) of a dragoon hitting a tank at ridiculous range? i.e. That of a siege tank. It was a dragoon at the bottom of a ramp on python, getting hit with a siege tank, and shooting the tank from its distance, which was at least 2x the regular dragoon range.


For the first one, I'm guessing that the Cannon was in range, but it kept having to switch between Overlord and Zergling, so the pre-attack sequence kept initiating over and over again. Actually, that sounds like a good way to freeze a Cannon. Kind of hard though, because the Cannon pre-attack sequence isn't that long.

The second scenario sounds like the one I described.
Ars longa, vita brevis, principia aeturna.
Patriot.dlk
Profile Blog Joined October 2004
Sweden5462 Posts
July 02 2009 19:06 GMT
#14
lol starcraft is so dissected that nothing shocks me anymore... There's a guy in the turrets, units can have infinite range, the random algorithm is not random, mutas can be stacked

list goes on and on
StRyKeR
Profile Blog Joined January 2006
United States1739 Posts
July 02 2009 19:06 GMT
#15
On July 03 2009 03:57 Avidkeystamper wrote:
This seems very multitasking intensive to be put to good use but it's useful to know in case of a cannon rush as noted. However, your pictures don't work.
I bet Koreans have known this for 5 years already.


It's not multitasking intensive at all. You just need lucky circumstances.

If you place a Sunken in the correct place, the Starcraft unit attacking AI will do everything for you. Check the replay
Ars longa, vita brevis, principia aeturna.
StRyKeR
Profile Blog Joined January 2006
United States1739 Posts
July 02 2009 19:07 GMT
#16

Also, another note, how would it have infinite range? Wouldn't it suggest that the interrupting attack would have to be able to be infinitely far away. Of course in theory infinite range works, but in practice, there is no attack that can possibly work like that, right?


In theory, the Sunken can attack across the map. But of course, it would never happen in a real game.
Ars longa, vita brevis, principia aeturna.
fnaticNoname
Profile Joined January 2008
India858 Posts
July 02 2009 19:07 GMT
#17
This is insane, thanks!
caldo149
Profile Blog Joined April 2009
United States469 Posts
July 02 2009 19:08 GMT
#18
On July 03 2009 03:57 Plexa wrote:
Very interesting thread :O
Should add this to Liquipedia

+1

and I thought you were just going to talk about how units running away from a sunken shot will still get hit even when they go past the range, but that's not always true. Guess I was thinking of dragoon shots XD Also, would this would work with a reaver or carrier/interceptors?
Hellions are my homeboys
Archaic
Profile Blog Joined March 2008
United States4024 Posts
July 02 2009 19:08 GMT
#19
On July 03 2009 04:06 Patriot.dlk wrote:
lol starcraft is so dissected that nothing shocks me anymore... There's a guy in the turrets, units can have infinite range, the random algorithm is not random, mutas can be stacked

list goes on and on

Muta bounces actually have a pattern, hold lurkers, Protoss can win with just 1a2a3a, moving rally points, burrowing units under buildings, floating workers, magic boxes... It's not even funny how much is known beyond the game manual.
Zoler
Profile Blog Joined June 2008
Sweden6339 Posts
July 02 2009 19:09 GMT
#20
Wow this is one of the best threads I've read on Teamliquid Interesting information
Lim Yo Hwan forever!
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