On July 03 2009 19:18 HeavOnEarth wrote:
i wonder if this could be a viable zvz rush
build sunken out of range of the defending one
and bring some drones to constantly make pools/cancel when nearly done/remake so the your sunken, attacks the sunkens out of range

Just what you asked for!

Well, almost.

>>>>>>>> http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=97373

GmPMaDTS

United States6 Posts

July 10 2009 19:28 GMT

#163

wow. that's amazing! This website amazes me more and more every second I look through it... i feel myself getting better by just being here...even though I am at work and shouldn't be reading this stuff... Haha.

Kyadytim

United States886 Posts

July 11 2009 02:16 GMT

#164

Well, I got this to work reliably for making sunkens attack cannons and tanks, but I have yet to manage it with dragoons at all.

For people saying that this isn't game-changing... it might not change the ZvT matchup, but this would totally destroy modern TvP. Siege expanding against a player who could do this reliably would be pointless, because the Terran player would siege their first tank, and the Protoss player would absorb the hit to make all of his Dragoons fire at the tank. On flat maps, such as Medusa, Longinus, Heartbreak Ridge, where there's no miss chance, 2 gate goons would be unstoppable. Absorbing two shots from a sieged tank to kill it is nothing. Worse for Terrans is that the Protoss could theoretically do this without getting range, giving them an extra 150 minerals and gas to get a fast robo for reavers or something.

Update 1: I've now got a test running the background. Unit stats have been changed as follows:

Pylon: 5000 hp, 0 shield.
Photon Cannon: 0 shield, 1 damage.
Dragoon: 0 shield, 1 damage.
Cy core: 1hp, 0 shield.
All units and structures are set to 0 armor.

The test has a Dragoon trapped on an island 8 tiles away from a photon cannon, belonging to non allied players. Between the photon cannon and the dragoon are a pylon, near the dragoon and belonging to the same player, and a cy core, near the cannon and belonging to the same player. The duration of a single test is the time required for the photon cannon to kill the pylon.

EvilTeletubby

Baltimore, USA22261 Posts

July 11 2009 02:47 GMT

#165

Nice post, can't believe I missed it...

I had always assumed it had to do with sunkens being attacked by units in the fog, but you're right... I just checked a game I played on Katrina a little while back where a P cannoned the minerals of my backdoor base. I had decided to give up on that expansion and put my attention elsewhere, and to my amazement the cannons had died when I returned. The replay shows the out-of-range sunkens hitting the cannons while they're shooting the hatchery/larva.

+ Show Spoiler +

lazz

Australia3119 Posts

July 11 2009 03:45 GMT

#166

so lemme get this straight, THEORETICALLY, one could open 2 gate range goon PvT, build a pylon at the terran's choke, and when the siege tank attacks the pylon the goons will get priority on the tank and be able to shoot it down over a distance longer than their normal range? yes?

Kyadytim

United States886 Posts

July 11 2009 04:30 GMT

#167

Theoretically, you don't need to build a pylon, just the Terran needs to wall off. The tank hitting the dragoons should be enough to change their targets.

BTW, outcome of the first test: the cannon landed 1 hit on the dragoon, the dragoon did not hit the cannon. For comparison, when I was confirming that this was a controllable phenomenon using a sunken, a hatchery, a cannon, and a pylon, when left alone the sunken seemed to hit the cannon about 1 out of every 4 attacks.
I'll run this some more to get a real mass of data, but my current theory is that it's impossible to do this intentionally with Dragoons or Cannons. Bit of a shame.

DekkuM

United States149 Posts

July 11 2009 05:28 GMT

#168

Flash's tank glitched vs YoOn to hit a zealot point blank while in seige mode. I'm guessing its the same bug and legal.

MoeMoeKyun

United States215 Posts

July 11 2009 14:05 GMT

#169

The dragoon picture lol, protoss will jerk off to that seeing dragoon range matching tank range ;o

foeffa

Belgium2115 Posts

July 11 2009 16:06 GMT

#170

Didnt know this, very interesting read.

Elvin_vn

Vietnam2038 Posts

July 11 2009 17:22 GMT

#171

i call this a bug

Esc4toN

Serbia96 Posts

July 11 2009 21:09 GMT

#172

Awesome T_T

synergis

Poland19 Posts

July 19 2009 09:05 GMT

#173

Great read! Even though I am not Zerg, it was still worth reading

Glurak

Czech Republic1 Post

July 19 2009 12:13 GMT

#174

Soo, this won't work, if the first target is targeted manually, even if that target dies right in the pre-attack sequence of sunkern/whatever? Right?
But this still makes possible strategy for 2v2 - your ally make non-att building behind your canons and when your canons are under siege tanks / guardians, you will temporary cancel ally status with your mate and have a situation of "enemy" non-att building in range and another enemy outside range attacking you. Nice, isn't it?

Centric

United States1989 Posts

July 22 2009 18:32 GMT

#175

Wow I just saw this. It's interesting stuff. Great read!

shimmy

Poland997 Posts

July 22 2009 18:44 GMT

#176

This phenomenon is pretty old this is the first time that I see someone explaining it in so much detail though. Huge props for the write up, this should definitely be incorporated into Liquipedia.

-orb-

United States5770 Posts

July 22 2009 19:30 GMT

#177

This is really really cool, thanks for the info!

KwarK

United States44386 Posts

August 02 2009 00:05 GMT

#178

Theorycraft

Using this trick against a protoss FE.

Step 1, pick a 2 player map.
Step 2, 9 hat at his natural, placed pretty far from the forge on the side away from where walling cannons would go but within range of normally placed cannons.
Step 3, 9 pool.
Step 4, send a drone.
Step 5, as hatchery completes build a sunken on the forge side of the hatchery, out of range of the cannon but within range of the forge. On most base sites there will be a spot where this is possible against a standard wallin.
Step 6, bug kills cannons attacking hat. Use stop to time it if you get unlucky. Try building another sunken within range of cannons if you need to buy time because the hat is dying.
Step 7, zerglings take the kill.