Many of you may have noticed that sunken colonies sometimes exhibit above-average attacking range.
lol wad
In this thread, I will explain why, my friends.
I do not claim that this is very useful or groundbreaking. The aim is to increase understanding of this phenomenon so that one day it might be of use to someone.
I want to emphasize that the trick doesn't work in most circumstances. Please do not think you can stop Terran pushes with this! Also, you CANNOT ATTACK OTHER NEXUSES OR HATCHERIES OR COMMAND CENTERS OR FAR FAR AWAY WORKERS with this method! It works under very specific circumstances.
Some background Most Starcraft units have pre-attack animation sequences that must be played before the actual attack occurs. For the Marine, it is "holding up the gun". For the Hydralisk, it is "opening the mouth".
Hydralisk pre-attack sequence
For most units, there is only one pre-attack sequence. All subsequent attacks do not require the unit to go through the sequence again. For the Marine, once it holds up its weapon, it does not put it down again. For the Hydralisk, once it opens its mouth, it doesn't have to open it again.
The exception is when the unit has to change targets. If a unit's attack target changes, it must go through its pre-attack sequence again. This phenomenon is most prevalent for the Photon Cannon, whose tower goes up and down constantly as it acquires new targets.
However, there is one unit that goes through its pre-attack sequence every single time it attacks, regardless of whether it has acquired a new target. That is the Sunken Colony. Moreover, the pre-attack sequence is very long. These two facts are the reasons why the Sunken Colony can have infinite range.
The mechanism From what I've garnered, the Starcraft unit attack AI is as follows.
1) Acquire target in range. 2) Begin pre-attack sequence. 3) Once pre-attack sequence is finished, attack the target.
It all seems fine. Units attack. Units die.
However, it turns out that this sequence is not so bug-free. Suppose we introduce an interrupt between 2) and 3).
1) Acquire target in range. 2) Begin pre-attack sequence. 2.5) Acquire higher priority target. 3) Once pre-attack sequence is finished, attack the target.
In this case, there is no check for whether the higher priority target is in range! So at step 3, the unit attacks the higher priority target, regardless of how far away it is.
How do we create this situation? Easy. By having another enemy target interrupt and accomplish step 2.5.
The interrupt Please recall the last time you were attack-moving into the enemy. You might have encountered a building. You started hacking away at the building and shifted your attention back to your base to macro. You come back and notice that your units are now attacking other units. What happened?
Basically, your units were attacking a building. Then enemy units came by and started attacking you. The Starcraft unit attack AI is smart enough to recognize that the unit is getting killed, so the unit changes target.
Example Have you ever noticed a Sunken Colony outrange a cannon? Why does it have longer range? Hint: It's not because it has longer range.
The best use of this information, in my opinion, is to stop a cannon rush. You can build a Sunken Colony outside the range of a cannon and still be able to kill it.
Zerg: omg
Protoss: lol i got this game
Zerg: omgggggg TT doesn't reach gahhhhh
Zerg: lol wad? Protoss: wow you hacker i'm reporting this
The Sunken Colony is in range of the left Pylon but not the Cannon. Thus, the Cannon cannot hit the Sunken Colony either.
The Sunken Colony does 1) Acquire target in range. The target is the Pylon.
Then it does 2) Begin pre-attack sequence.
But just then, the Cannon attacks the Hatchery and the Sunken Colony does 2.5) Acquire higher priority target. The higher priority target is the Cannon.
The Sunken Colony finally does 3) Once pre-attack sequence is finished, attack the target. Because there was no range check, the Sunken ends up attacking the target, the Photon Cannon, even though it's outside range.
Here is a replay of the example in action! Watching the replay is the best way to get an idea of what's going on.
Requirements Let's say you want to attack TARGET without getting hit.
Requirement 1: Your Sunken Colony has to be in range of some other enemy unit so that "1) Acquire target in range" is activated. Non-combat units include all non-attacking buildings, medics, etc.
Requirement 2: TARGET must be attacking something close to your Sunken Colony so that "2.5) Acquire higher priority target" is activated. In fact, the close unit can actually be your Sunken Colony (although it's not recommended). From my tests, the Sunken has to be adjacent to that unit. Otherwise, the interrupt is ignored because the Sunken is too far.
If these requirements are met, you don't have to do a thing. The buggy Starcraft unit attack AI will take care of the rest.
Now, your Sunken won't always attack TARGET. That only happens when TARGET interrupts the Sunken's attack AI sequence. But because the Sunken's pre-attack animation sequence is so long, it is pretty likely. Also, you can do Sunken micro by stopping your Sunken and making it attack only when the cannon hits your hatchery during your pre-attack sequence. It's kinda hard though cuz Sunkens don't really hold like Lurkers hold even if you tell it to.
On July 03 2009 06:07 arcology wrote: This could use some clarifications, we did some testing on this a few years ago in my channel (which I retested just now) There are only two priorities, combat units and non combat units (medics, buildings etc). This does not work with a marine (or other combat unit in range) that isn't attacking the sunken, as you claimed.
At least one non combat unit needs to be in range, and no combat units in range (otherwise they will be acquired), and a combat unit attacking the sunken or something adjacent to it from outside its range. The sunken will strike it if the unit attacks during the pre-attack part you described.
Other uses I have seen Sunken Colonies hit Siege Tanks out of range with this method. Usually though, you'd have to be lucky to be in such a situation. You'd need some unit in range of the Sunken (non-combat unit). You also need the Siege Tank attacking something close to the Sunken (Hatchery, drone, the Sunken itself, etc.).
lol wadddddddddddd
Thanks to patrick321:
huh
Conclusion This phenomenon is not limited to the Sunken Colony. Any Starcraft unit can have infinite range (possibly except the Lurker and Firebat), because of the existence of the interrupt without range checking. The only reason why the Sunken Colony is special is that it fires its pre-attack sequence every single time it attacks and that the sequence is quite long. The pre-attack sequence is the window in which the interrupt must occur.
This theory also explains the well-known "Zealot killing two marines in one attack" from a long time ago. Basically, the Zealot has a pre-attack sequence before each of its "blades", which are one frame long. What happened was that the first Zealot blade killed the first marine, and during the pre-attack sequence for the second blade, the second marine attacked it, causing the Zealot to change target without checking range, and thereby killing the second marine. I believe that the fact that the first marine was a combat unit doesn't matter because dead unit = non-combat unit.
This seems very multitasking intensive to be put to good use but it's useful to know in case of a cannon rush as noted. However, your pictures don't work. I bet Koreans have known this for 5 years already.
Holy Shit, cant you just attack your own lings then switch target to kill the seige tanks? Shit, this has potential for insane abuse and potential to make those mid game pushes even more hell vs T. Im so going to try this
You have troubles getting dropbox to send to the servah. This could be caused by you not closing a document that it's trying to send or something like that :p
On July 03 2009 03:58 samachking wrote: Holy Shit, cant you just attack your own lings then switch target to kill the seige tanks? Shit, this has potential for insane abuse and potential to make those mid game pushes even more hell vs T. Im so going to try this
Thanks for the awesome tip.
That doesn't work because force-attacking overrides the Starcraft unit AI. For example, if you force a Hydralisk to attack something, it won't stop even if a Marine starts to interrupt it.
I think that I discovered something similar to this mechanic. What I've done before is I have circled a photon cannon (In single player, of course) with overlords within its range. Then I had a zergling running around within its sight range, but just outside of its actual range. And as a result, the cannon simply stopped attacking. Could this be the same basic mechanic in this? And could this explain that replay (not too long ago, I just forgot where it was) of a dragoon hitting a tank at ridiculous range? i.e. That of a siege tank. It was a dragoon at the bottom of a ramp on python, getting hit with a siege tank, and shooting the tank from its distance, which was at least 2x the regular dragoon range.
On July 03 2009 03:57 Avidkeystamper wrote: This seems very multitasking intensive to be put to good use but it's useful to know in case of a cannon rush as noted. However, your pictures don't work. I bet Koreans have known this for 5 years already.
If they did, wouldn't they have been doing so in pro games?
Also, another note, how would it have infinite range? Wouldn't it suggest that the interrupting attack would have to be able to be infinitely far away. Of course in theory infinite range works, but in practice, there is no attack that can possibly work like that, right?
On July 03 2009 04:01 Archaic wrote: I think that I discovered something similar to this mechanic. What I've done before is I have circled a photon cannon (In single player, of course) with overlords within its range. Then I had a zergling running around within its sight range, but just outside of its actual range. And as a result, the cannon simply stopped attacking. Could this be the same basic mechanic in this? And could this explain that replay (not too long ago, I just forgot where it was) of a dragoon hitting a tank at ridiculous range? i.e. That of a siege tank. It was a dragoon at the bottom of a ramp on python, getting hit with a siege tank, and shooting the tank from its distance, which was at least 2x the regular dragoon range.
For the first one, I'm guessing that the Cannon was in range, but it kept having to switch between Overlord and Zergling, so the pre-attack sequence kept initiating over and over again. Actually, that sounds like a good way to freeze a Cannon. Kind of hard though, because the Cannon pre-attack sequence isn't that long.
The second scenario sounds like the one I described.
lol starcraft is so dissected that nothing shocks me anymore... There's a guy in the turrets, units can have infinite range, the random algorithm is not random, mutas can be stacked
On July 03 2009 03:57 Avidkeystamper wrote: This seems very multitasking intensive to be put to good use but it's useful to know in case of a cannon rush as noted. However, your pictures don't work. I bet Koreans have known this for 5 years already.
It's not multitasking intensive at all. You just need lucky circumstances.
If you place a Sunken in the correct place, the Starcraft unit attacking AI will do everything for you. Check the replay
Also, another note, how would it have infinite range? Wouldn't it suggest that the interrupting attack would have to be able to be infinitely far away. Of course in theory infinite range works, but in practice, there is no attack that can possibly work like that, right?
In theory, the Sunken can attack across the map. But of course, it would never happen in a real game.
On July 03 2009 03:57 Plexa wrote: Very interesting thread :O Should add this to Liquipedia
+1
and I thought you were just going to talk about how units running away from a sunken shot will still get hit even when they go past the range, but that's not always true. Guess I was thinking of dragoon shots XD Also, would this would work with a reaver or carrier/interceptors?
On July 03 2009 04:06 Patriot.dlk wrote: lol starcraft is so dissected that nothing shocks me anymore... There's a guy in the turrets, units can have infinite range, the random algorithm is not random, mutas can be stacked
list goes on and on
Muta bounces actually have a pattern, hold lurkers, Protoss can win with just 1a2a3a, moving rally points, burrowing units under buildings, floating workers, magic boxes... It's not even funny how much is known beyond the game manual.
On July 03 2009 03:57 Avidkeystamper wrote: This seems very multitasking intensive to be put to good use but it's useful to know in case of a cannon rush as noted. However, your pictures don't work. I bet Koreans have known this for 5 years already.
It's not multitasking intensive at all. You just need lucky circumstances.
If you place a Sunken in the correct place, the Starcraft unit attacking AI will do everything for you. Check the replay
This works when a building is in range, but if it was another unit attacking such as a marine, wouldnt it just attack the marine and the siege would be fine?
On July 03 2009 04:16 insectoceanx wrote: This works when a building is in range, but if it was another unit attacking such as a marine, wouldnt it just attack the marine and the siege would be fine?
It's a matter of priorities. I'm not sure if the Sunken would prioritize the Marine over the Tank. If it didn't, then the trick would still work. What I do know for sure, though, is that if the Marine is NOT attacking the Sunken, the trick DEFINITELY works.
Wow this explains everything. So many times this happens to me where sunken out ranges cannon. And even several times i've seen sunken out range reaver.
On July 03 2009 03:58 samachking wrote: Holy Shit, cant you just attack your own lings then switch target to kill the seige tanks? Shit, this has potential for insane abuse and potential to make those mid game pushes even more hell vs T. Im so going to try this
Thanks for the awesome tip.
That doesn't work because force-attacking overrides the Starcraft unit AI. For example, if you force a Hydralisk to attack something, it won't stop even if a Marine starts to interrupt it.
Aww, another question, if you have your overlord in range of something else, can you hit something like an enemy nexus if you have one of his units in the range of your sunk.
If this works, I can totally see this killing enemy pools and spires on icc and theyll be like wtf hax? That should be fucking awesome . I need someone to try it out with me. PM me if you can make on icc and want to test some of this shit.
On July 03 2009 03:58 samachking wrote: Holy Shit, cant you just attack your own lings then switch target to kill the seige tanks? Shit, this has potential for insane abuse and potential to make those mid game pushes even more hell vs T. Im so going to try this
Thanks for the awesome tip.
That doesn't work because force-attacking overrides the Starcraft unit AI. For example, if you force a Hydralisk to attack something, it won't stop even if a Marine starts to interrupt it.
Aww, another question, if you have your overlord in range of something else, can you hit something like an enemy nexus if you have one of his units in the range of your sunk.
It goes for AI priority which is whatever is the strongest unit attacking it. Nexus is not a threat so it wouldn't attack nexus.
On July 03 2009 03:58 samachking wrote: Holy Shit, cant you just attack your own lings then switch target to kill the seige tanks? Shit, this has potential for insane abuse and potential to make those mid game pushes even more hell vs T. Im so going to try this
Thanks for the awesome tip.
That doesn't work because force-attacking overrides the Starcraft unit AI. For example, if you force a Hydralisk to attack something, it won't stop even if a Marine starts to interrupt it.
Aww, another question, if you have your overlord in range of something else, can you hit something like an enemy nexus if you have one of his units in the range of your sunk.
It goes for AI priority which is whatever is the strongest unit attacking it. Nexus is not a threat so it wouldn't attack nexus.
So it could work vs enemy canons in main if my opponent 3 zeal attacks. Also this can actually make proxy hatches in ZvP for pushing purposes REALLY viable
On July 03 2009 03:58 samachking wrote: Holy Shit, cant you just attack your own lings then switch target to kill the seige tanks? Shit, this has potential for insane abuse and potential to make those mid game pushes even more hell vs T. Im so going to try this
Thanks for the awesome tip.
That doesn't work because force-attacking overrides the Starcraft unit AI. For example, if you force a Hydralisk to attack something, it won't stop even if a Marine starts to interrupt it.
Aww, another question, if you have your overlord in range of something else, can you hit something like an enemy nexus if you have one of his units in the range of your sunk.
It goes for AI priority which is whatever is the strongest unit attacking it. Nexus is not a threat so it wouldn't attack nexus.
So it could work vs enemy canons in main if my opponent 3 zeal attacks. Also this can actually make proxy hatches in ZvP for pushing purposes REALLY viable
Yes, if your Sunk hits Zealot and the Cannon hits one of your units (Hatchery maybe) it would work. The only worry is the Sunk getting enough hits before your Hatchery dies. You can actually practice Sunken micro and time it so that the pre-attack sequence begins JUST before the Cannon fire hits the Hatchery. Then your Sunk can hit the Cannon every single time.
Sunken micro is kinda hard though. If you tell it to stop, it keeps going sometimes.
Im going to 9pool proxy hatch every game on icc and destroy teh enemy bunkers and canons Wonder how far it will take me. I really need someone to test this stuff, just PM me.
On July 03 2009 03:58 samachking wrote: Holy Shit, cant you just attack your own lings then switch target to kill the seige tanks? Shit, this has potential for insane abuse and potential to make those mid game pushes even more hell vs T. Im so going to try this
Thanks for the awesome tip.
That doesn't work because force-attacking overrides the Starcraft unit AI. For example, if you force a Hydralisk to attack something, it won't stop even if a Marine starts to interrupt it.
Aww, another question, if you have your overlord in range of something else, can you hit something like an enemy nexus if you have one of his units in the range of your sunk.
It goes for AI priority which is whatever is the strongest unit attacking it. Nexus is not a threat so it wouldn't attack nexus.
So it could work vs enemy canons in main if my opponent 3 zeal attacks. Also this can actually make proxy hatches in ZvP for pushing purposes REALLY viable
Yes, if your Sunk hits Zealot and the Cannon hits one of your units (Hatchery maybe) it would work. The only worry is the Sunk getting enough hits before your Hatchery dies. You can actually practice Sunken micro and time it so that the pre-attack sequence begins JUST before the Cannon fire hits the Hatchery. Then your Sunk can hit the Cannon every single time.
Sunken micro is kinda hard though. If you tell it to stop, it keeps going sometimes.
How about I build another sunk to take fire? then allow the other sunk to do the work while its at it. Sunks destroy canons anyways
On July 03 2009 03:58 samachking wrote: Holy Shit, cant you just attack your own lings then switch target to kill the seige tanks? Shit, this has potential for insane abuse and potential to make those mid game pushes even more hell vs T. Im so going to try this
Thanks for the awesome tip.
That doesn't work because force-attacking overrides the Starcraft unit AI. For example, if you force a Hydralisk to attack something, it won't stop even if a Marine starts to interrupt it.
Aww, another question, if you have your overlord in range of something else, can you hit something like an enemy nexus if you have one of his units in the range of your sunk.
It goes for AI priority which is whatever is the strongest unit attacking it. Nexus is not a threat so it wouldn't attack nexus.
So it could work vs enemy canons in main if my opponent 3 zeal attacks. Also this can actually make proxy hatches in ZvP for pushing purposes REALLY viable
Yes, if your Sunk hits Zealot and the Cannon hits one of your units (Hatchery maybe) it would work. The only worry is the Sunk getting enough hits before your Hatchery dies. You can actually practice Sunken micro and time it so that the pre-attack sequence begins JUST before the Cannon fire hits the Hatchery. Then your Sunk can hit the Cannon every single time.
Sunken micro is kinda hard though. If you tell it to stop, it keeps going sometimes.
How about I build another sunk to take fire? then allow the other sunk to do the work while its at it. Sunks destroy canons anyways
I always knew there was something about sunkens that gave them opportunities to fire at longer ranges. I just assumed it was because the attack animation took so long that a unit could walk in and out of range and still get nailed (albeit delayed).
I guess this sorta explains the reaver at weird angles vs a sunken>
PS- Day[9]'s commentary yesterday about not thinking the sunken was in range of the canon was just a mistake on his part - it wasn't this bug.
On July 03 2009 05:55 Louder wrote: lol this is just begging for a bug fix
So in theory all units are still effected by the bug but its really hard to recreate.
I hope to god they don't fix it because most likely all previous reps will be corrupt and they will inevitably fuck something else up, because they would most likely reduce the pre attack sequence of the sunken.
Unless progamers find some serious game breaking usage of this, don't patch it imo.
PS- It never ceases to amaze me how many bugs and exploits are still discovered pretty regularly in this game after 11 + years. Makes me wonder if, when the game dies, there was some crazy strategies that were never even seen because some bugs were never discovered.
On July 03 2009 05:55 Louder wrote: lol this is just begging for a bug fix
So in theory all units are still effected by the bug but its really hard to recreate.
I hope to god they don't fix it because most likely all previous reps will be corrupt and they will inevitably fuck something else up, because they would most likely reduce the pre attack sequence of the sunken.
Unless progamers find some serious game breaking usage of this, don't patch it imo.
PS- It never ceases to amaze me how many bugs and exploits are still discovered pretty regularly in this game after 11 + years. Makes me wonder if when the game dies if there was some crazy strategies that were never even seen because some bugs were never discovered.
Good observation. Fixing this bug/feature will seriously ruin all replays, as it is a fundamental mechanism used every time a unit attacks.
This could use some clarifications, we did some testing on this a few years ago in my channel (which I retested just now) There are only two priorities, combat units and non combat units (medics, buildings etc). This does not work with a marine (or other combat unit in range) that isn't attacking the sunken, as you claimed.
At least one non combat unit needs to be in range, and no combat units in range (otherwise they will be acquired), and a combat unit attacking the sunken or something adjacent to it from outside its range. The sunken will strike it if the unit attacks during the pre-attack part you described.
On July 03 2009 06:07 arcology wrote: This could use some clarifications, we did some testing on this a few years ago in my channel (which I retested just now) There are only two priorities, combat units and non combat units (medics, buildings etc). This does not work with a marine (or other combat unit in range) that isn't attacking the sunken, as you claimed.
At least one non combat unit needs to be in range, and no combat units in range (otherwise they will be acquired), and a combat unit attacking the sunken or something adjacent to it from outside its range. The sunken will strike it if the unit attacks during the pre-attack part you described.
That can't be right cause look at the screenshots, there is one where a sunken is hitting a marine and a tank.
edit- actually
yae the top sunken looks to be only in range of the medic
On July 03 2009 06:07 arcology wrote: This could use some clarifications, we did some testing on this a few years ago in my channel (which I retested just now) There are only two priorities, combat units and non combat units (medics, buildings etc). This does not work with a marine (or other combat unit in range) that isn't attacking the sunken, as you claimed.
At least one non combat unit needs to be in range, and no combat units in range (otherwise they will be acquired), and a combat unit attacking the sunken or something adjacent to it from outside its range. The sunken will strike it if the unit attacks during the pre-attack part you described.
You're right. It only worked for me because medics were around. I guess medics = non combat units.
What if you attack a friendly unit to initiate the attack? Do manually targetted things work if you stop them afterwards? This requires more testing for maximum proxy-Hatch abuse.
On July 03 2009 06:38 Chill wrote: What if you attack a friendly unit to initiate the attack? Do manually targetted things work if you stop them afterwards? This requires more testing for maximum proxy-Hatch abuse.
No, someone mentioned that force attack your own unit skips the AI check.
On July 03 2009 06:38 Chill wrote: What if you attack a friendly unit to initiate the attack? Do manually targetted things work if you stop them afterwards? This requires more testing for maximum proxy-Hatch abuse.
I mentioned it in the thread and I tested it, the proxy hatch thing does not work, as canons need to target fire something and there needs to be a noncombat building to attack then switch fire, not too viable. Only useful in the situations in OP, tank pushes + canon rushes.
+ Above post, friendly units doesnt work. SC is one fucked up game with all this weird stuff being found out 10 years after the game is out
for the first image, it is not related to the length of the creep? Because a normal sunken would be able to hit something a few matrices after it's creep, but the creep that was near the tank was because of the hatchery. Could there also be a relationship between the sunken range and the creep?
On July 03 2009 06:58 3nickma wrote: Lol an age-old game is still getting discoveries! Maybe this is how Jaedong survived that fast Cannon rush (can't remember the specific game)?
Interesting read, but the situation with the cannon rush behind your pylon happens very often in bgh games. I knew for awhile now that sunks can hit further than a canon but i never really knew why, now i know thx =)
I wonder if it is actually possible to use this bug in a progaming situation... well since stim'd marines attack so often i'm sure that with enough sunkes you could rape their tanks this way.
On July 03 2009 07:59 ghermination wrote: I wonder if it is actually possible to use this bug in a progaming situation... well since stim'd marines attack so often i'm sure that with enough sunkes you could rape their tanks this way.
On July 03 2009 06:58 3nickma wrote: Lol an age-old game is still getting discoveries! Maybe this is how Jaedong survived that fast Cannon rush (can't remember the specific game)?
I saw this posted here a while ago and figured i'd share. According to your explanation the goons would have to be firing at an scv or the fact add-on when the tank became a new target. I wish i had the replay.
On July 03 2009 11:13 patrick321 wrote: Nice job finding out what causes this phenomenon!
I saw this posted here a while ago and figured i'd share. According to your explanation the goons would have to be firing at an scv or the fact add-on when the tank became a new target. I wish i had the replay.
Yeah, that's the picture I described, haha. I love that picture.
The title is very misleading I think... because you said
On July 03 2009 03:53 StRyKeR wrote: Requirement 2: TARGET must be attacking something close to your Sunken Colony so that "2.5) Acquire higher priority target" is activated. In fact, the close unit can actually be your Sunken Colony (although it's not recommended). From my tests, the Sunken has to be adjacent to that unit. Otherwise, the interrupt is ignored because the Sunken is too far.
Well the TARGET doesn't have infinite range (or maybe............. domino) and your last sentence just shows that this won't give sunkens an infinite range.
this is y u see something like zlot start atcking and then marine runs away and seems to be out of range when it actually goes through w/ the atcking motion yet the marine still take dmg...
On July 03 2009 14:50 konadora wrote: Mm, I'm confused
So at Step 2.5, you can manually change the target by clicking 'a' or does that target have to attack you?
"That target" as you mention it have to attack a neutral building NEAR ur shunken. Although i'm not sure if it works if it's the sunken indeed that is attacked. (From what i've read on this op and replies, i'm sure it's not)
Ps : and no, you have to not target it manually. Otherwise it doesn't work.
Hey I am curious about devourer, often times if you attack and move too quickly they don't even fire? Is this due to the same bug but where blizzard tried to fix it?
I always wondered why blizzard didn't fix this annoying little thing with devs. espeiailly now when you can stack and swoop in and hit and run.
The post by archology really cleared it up, thanks for adding it into the OP. It sadly greatly reduces your ability to both practice this and use it in a real game situation.
The video by Kentor was really useful. Thanks for posting it up on youtube.
I hope progamers' future use of this doesn't cause contraversy. It might be a bug that kespa is officially unaware of which could be a problem for the first time they see it. I guess if they rule that it's a non-game-breaking bug they would be in favour of it? I'm certainly going to cause some contraversy next time i get cannon rushed anyway. Could be useful against bunker rushes too.
On July 03 2009 03:53 StRyKeR wrote: Requirement 2: TARGET must be attacking something close to your Sunken Colony so that "2.5) Acquire higher priority target" is activated. In fact, the close unit can actually be your Sunken Colony (although it's not recommended). From my tests, the Sunken has to be adjacent to that unit. Otherwise, the interrupt is ignored because the Sunken is too far.
Well the TARGET doesn't have infinite range (or maybe............. domino) and your last sentence just shows that this won't give sunkens an infinite range.
True, I wanted to sound it so that people would read, but I think I ended up misleading people into thinking it could attack Nexuses and workers, lol.
In the paragraph, I was actually describing that the allied unit must be near the Sunken. For example, if the Cannon out of range is attacking your Hatchery, your Hatchery must be adjacent to your Sunken Colony. It doesn't matter where the Cannon is.
Yes, in practical terms, it is impossible for a Sunk to have infinite range, but the only reason is that there is no enemy attacker with infinite range. Unless you get an Arbiter to recall a Dragoon that is just about to attack, so that he starts his attack sequence before getting recalled but ends up shooting his plasma cannon after the recall so that it travels across the map to hit the Hatchery next to the Sunken which triggers the Sunk to change target to the Dragoon and thus Sunk hits the Dragoon on the other side of the map.
On July 03 2009 14:50 konadora wrote: Mm, I'm confused
So at Step 2.5, you can manually change the target by clicking 'a' or does that target have to attack you?
"That target" as you mention it have to attack a neutral building NEAR ur shunken. Although i'm not sure if it works if it's the sunken indeed that is attacked. (From what i've read on this op and replies, i'm sure it's not)
Ps : and no, you have to not target it manually. Otherwise it doesn't work.
At step 2.5, the enemy target must attack either your sunk or a unit next to it. In the replay (youtubed above) the Cannon attacks the Hatchery, which is next to the Sunk.
On July 03 2009 03:53 StRyKeR wrote: Unless you get an Arbiter to recall a Dragoon that is just about to attack, so that he starts his attack sequence before getting recalled but ends up shooting his plasma cannon after the recall so that it travels across the map to hit the Hatchery next to the Sunken which triggers the Sunk to change target to the Dragoon and thus Sunk hits the Dragoon on the other side of the map.
Someone should recreate this scenario, film it and post it.
On July 03 2009 06:37 3 Lions wrote: so possibly you could proxy hatch and build sunkens and rape a Forge FE yes?
In theory yes
It doesnt work.
Yes in theory, but it's the fucking most impossible thing to do
no because your hatch would have to be in range in order to take damage, and well, you need your proxy hatch. i guess you could consistently build a pool or something in range of the cannon, after the proxy hatch and the sunk will acquire the cannon, however you would need a pylon/gateway/core etc in range of the sunken
i wonder if this could be a viable zvz rush build sunken out of range of the defending one and bring some drones to constantly make pools/cancel when nearly done/remake so the your sunken, attacks the sunkens out of range
i wonder if stuff like this is why unsieged tank attacks sieged tank and what about super speed zealots and stuff. Understanding why this happens is very neat though
On July 03 2009 06:37 3 Lions wrote: so possibly you could proxy hatch and build sunkens and rape a Forge FE yes?
In theory yes
It doesnt work.
Yes in theory, but it's the fucking most impossible thing to do
no because your hatch would have to be in range in order to take damage, and well, you need your proxy hatch. i guess you could consistently build a pool or something in range of the cannon, after the proxy hatch and the sunk will acquire the cannon, however you would need a pylon/gateway/core etc in range of the sunken
It's total luck, after every attack that hits the cannon the sunken will attack the other building again.
On July 03 2009 03:57 Avidkeystamper wrote: This seems very multitasking intensive to be put to good use but it's useful to know in case of a cannon rush as noted. However, your pictures don't work. I bet Koreans have known this for 5 years already.
It's not multitasking intensive at all. You just need lucky circumstances.
If you place a Sunken in the correct place, the Starcraft unit attacking AI will do everything for you. Check the replay
You are clearly overestimating them. They probably dont even know that there is a pre-attack frame of animation, just as they dont know that some of things in starcraft are frame dependant.
On July 03 2009 03:53 StRyKeR wrote: Unless you get an Arbiter to recall a Dragoon that is just about to attack, so that he starts his attack sequence before getting recalled but ends up shooting his plasma cannon after the recall so that it travels across the map to hit the Hatchery next to the Sunken which triggers the Sunk to change target to the Dragoon and thus Sunk hits the Dragoon on the other side of the map.
Someone should recreate this scenario, film it and post it.
This is quite easy to be reproduced with carriers in an opposite way. The interceptors fly through the whole map to return to the carriers, just after the carriers are recalled somewhere else (I think it happened in that TL staff BGH name for example).
On July 03 2009 14:50 konadora wrote: Mm, I'm confused
So at Step 2.5, you can manually change the target by clicking 'a' or does that target have to attack you?
"That target" as you mention it have to attack a neutral building NEAR ur shunken. Although i'm not sure if it works if it's the sunken indeed that is attacked. (From what i've read on this op and replies, i'm sure it's not)
Ps : and no, you have to not target it manually. Otherwise it doesn't work.
At step 2.5, the enemy target must attack either your sunk or a unit next to it. In the replay (youtubed above) the Cannon attacks the Hatchery, which is next to the Sunk.
So is this purely timing dependent? (You have to time your sunken's attack on the pylon so that the cannon will hit the hatchery at the appropriate time, right?)
On July 03 2009 14:50 konadora wrote: Mm, I'm confused
So at Step 2.5, you can manually change the target by clicking 'a' or does that target have to attack you?
"That target" as you mention it have to attack a neutral building NEAR ur shunken. Although i'm not sure if it works if it's the sunken indeed that is attacked. (From what i've read on this op and replies, i'm sure it's not)
Ps : and no, you have to not target it manually. Otherwise it doesn't work.
At step 2.5, the enemy target must attack either your sunk or a unit next to it. In the replay (youtubed above) the Cannon attacks the Hatchery, which is next to the Sunk.
So is this purely timing dependent? (You have to time your sunken's attack on the pylon so that the cannon will hit the hatchery at the appropriate time, right?)
Ohhhh, so THIS is why valkyries sometimes shoot across the entire map :D. Very cool guide/write up, though I hope I never see it in use effectively against me >.<.
very very cool. I can't see it being effective a huge amount of the time though - there's too many different dependent factors (non attacking buildings, making sure the timing works out, etc. ) way way cool though. Port to liquipedia ^^
On July 03 2009 19:18 HeavOnEarth wrote: i wonder if this could be a viable zvz rush build sunken out of range of the defending one and bring some drones to constantly make pools/cancel when nearly done/remake so the your sunken, attacks the sunkens out of range
according to the write-up, your strat won't work unless some units of the opponent is within the sight of your sunken
this is groundbreaking. maybe not a gamebreaker, but definitely groundbreaking. its amazing how after all these years there is still to be found and established.
On July 03 2009 19:18 HeavOnEarth wrote: i wonder if this could be a viable zvz rush build sunken out of range of the defending one and bring some drones to constantly make pools/cancel when nearly done/remake so the your sunken, attacks the sunkens out of range
wow. that's amazing! This website amazes me more and more every second I look through it... i feel myself getting better by just being here...even though I am at work and shouldn't be reading this stuff... Haha.
Well, I got this to work reliably for making sunkens attack cannons and tanks, but I have yet to manage it with dragoons at all.
For people saying that this isn't game-changing... it might not change the ZvT matchup, but this would totally destroy modern TvP. Siege expanding against a player who could do this reliably would be pointless, because the Terran player would siege their first tank, and the Protoss player would absorb the hit to make all of his Dragoons fire at the tank. On flat maps, such as Medusa, Longinus, Heartbreak Ridge, where there's no miss chance, 2 gate goons would be unstoppable. Absorbing two shots from a sieged tank to kill it is nothing. Worse for Terrans is that the Protoss could theoretically do this without getting range, giving them an extra 150 minerals and gas to get a fast robo for reavers or something.
Update 1: I've now got a test running the background. Unit stats have been changed as follows:
Pylon: 5000 hp, 0 shield. Photon Cannon: 0 shield, 1 damage. Dragoon: 0 shield, 1 damage. Cy core: 1hp, 0 shield. All units and structures are set to 0 armor.
The test has a Dragoon trapped on an island 8 tiles away from a photon cannon, belonging to non allied players. Between the photon cannon and the dragoon are a pylon, near the dragoon and belonging to the same player, and a cy core, near the cannon and belonging to the same player. The duration of a single test is the time required for the photon cannon to kill the pylon.
I had always assumed it had to do with sunkens being attacked by units in the fog, but you're right... I just checked a game I played on Katrina a little while back where a P cannoned the minerals of my backdoor base. I had decided to give up on that expansion and put my attention elsewhere, and to my amazement the cannons had died when I returned. The replay shows the out-of-range sunkens hitting the cannons while they're shooting the hatchery/larva.
so lemme get this straight, THEORETICALLY, one could open 2 gate range goon PvT, build a pylon at the terran's choke, and when the siege tank attacks the pylon the goons will get priority on the tank and be able to shoot it down over a distance longer than their normal range? yes?
Theoretically, you don't need to build a pylon, just the Terran needs to wall off. The tank hitting the dragoons should be enough to change their targets.
BTW, outcome of the first test: the cannon landed 1 hit on the dragoon, the dragoon did not hit the cannon. For comparison, when I was confirming that this was a controllable phenomenon using a sunken, a hatchery, a cannon, and a pylon, when left alone the sunken seemed to hit the cannon about 1 out of every 4 attacks. I'll run this some more to get a real mass of data, but my current theory is that it's impossible to do this intentionally with Dragoons or Cannons. Bit of a shame.
Soo, this won't work, if the first target is targeted manually, even if that target dies right in the pre-attack sequence of sunkern/whatever? Right? But this still makes possible strategy for 2v2 - your ally make non-att building behind your canons and when your canons are under siege tanks / guardians, you will temporary cancel ally status with your mate and have a situation of "enemy" non-att building in range and another enemy outside range attacking you. Nice, isn't it?
This phenomenon is pretty old this is the first time that I see someone explaining it in so much detail though. Huge props for the write up, this should definitely be incorporated into Liquipedia.
Step 1, pick a 2 player map. Step 2, 9 hat at his natural, placed pretty far from the forge on the side away from where walling cannons would go but within range of normally placed cannons. Step 3, 9 pool. Step 4, send a drone. Step 5, as hatchery completes build a sunken on the forge side of the hatchery, out of range of the cannon but within range of the forge. On most base sites there will be a spot where this is possible against a standard wallin. Step 6, bug kills cannons attacking hat. Use stop to time it if you get unlucky. Try building another sunken within range of cannons if you need to buy time because the hat is dying. Step 7, zerglings take the kill.
On March 10 2012 22:59 S2Glow wrote: lol this is complicated , someone please simplify it.. i dont know about this too lol
If something attacks a zerg unit within the range of the sunken while the sunken is at a certain point in its attack animation, the sunken will change its mind to hit this attacker instead, regardless of the actual distance.
Example: Cannon rush. A pylon in range of the sunken powers a cannon that is outside of the range of the sunken. The sunken starts an attack animation targetting the pylon, but during it the cannon shoots the hatchery nearby - causing the sunken to aquire it as its new target, without checking if it's close enough to hit.
I've never seen it happen with goons before. Constantly in my tvp's i build depots and turrets to take fire from the protoss army, but i never see a goon that is only in range of a nearby depot shoot a tank. Usually the goon just sits there ready to fire without atking anyone. Freezing is much more common for a unit to do and is one of the reasons muta micro is so hard.
On March 11 2012 01:12 puppykiller wrote: I've never seen it happen with goons before. Constantly in my tvp's i build depots and turrets to take fire from the protoss army, but i never see a goon that is only in range of a nearby depot shoot a tank. Usually the goon just sits there ready to fire without atking anyone. Freezing is much more common for a unit to do and is one of the reasons muta micro is so hard.
Bear in mind that the pre-attack animation for sunks is obscenely long compared to pretty much anything else in BW.
On March 11 2012 01:12 puppykiller wrote: I've never seen it happen with goons before. Constantly in my tvp's i build depots and turrets to take fire from the protoss army, but i never see a goon that is only in range of a nearby depot shoot a tank. Usually the goon just sits there ready to fire without atking anyone. Freezing is much more common for a unit to do and is one of the reasons muta micro is so hard.
Bear in mind that the pre-attack animation for sunks is obscenely long compared to pretty much anything else in BW.
And it does every time it fires not just every time it acquires a new target.
so this should work when you attack your own building as well, right? i imagine this being useful when there is a drop behind the mineral line and you tell your sunken (which is not in range of the back of the mineral line) to auto attack your hatchery, it should switch targets and kill the marines if they attack your drones/hatchery right?
i'm noob so i don't know how to test this would be glad if someone could though
On March 11 2012 02:35 Cirqueenflex wrote: so this should work when you attack your own building as well, right? i imagine this being useful when there is a drop behind the mineral line and you tell your sunken (which is not in range of the back of the mineral line) to auto attack your hatchery, it should switch targets and kill the marines if they attack your drones/hatchery right?
i'm noob so i don't know how to test this would be glad if someone could though
I don't think you can get your sunken to auto-attack your hatchery, since it's your hatchery. If you force the sunken to attack the hatchery I think the attack command would override any automatic target switching. You'd probably have to hope that your opponent sends a medic within sunken range, then the sunken will start attacking marines.
On March 11 2012 02:35 Cirqueenflex wrote: so this should work when you attack your own building as well, right? i imagine this being useful when there is a drop behind the mineral line and you tell your sunken (which is not in range of the back of the mineral line) to auto attack your hatchery, it should switch targets and kill the marines if they attack your drones/hatchery right?
i'm noob so i don't know how to test this would be glad if someone could though
I don't think you can get your sunken to auto-attack your hatchery, since it's your hatchery. If you force the sunken to attack the hatchery I think the attack command would override any automatic target switching. You'd probably have to hope that your opponent sends a medic within sunken range, then the sunken will start attacking marines.
even if auto-attacking your own hatchery does not work, pressing stop directly after issuing the attack command might work i guess. Oh well, i have so little knowledge about this, please someone who knows how to test this do the tests
On May 14 2018 10:34 KAGA100MAN wrote: The same situation appeared on ASL5 3/4 Place Match. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EAWKXw3n7C8#t=30m It seems Mini knew this and he intentionally killed his pylon to avoid this thing to happen.
yeah the sunk got a couple of shots on the cannon even, so good move by him
On May 14 2018 10:34 KAGA100MAN wrote: The same situation appeared on ASL5 3/4 Place Match. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EAWKXw3n7C8#t=30m It seems Mini knew this and he intentionally killed his pylon to avoid this thing to happen.
Holy shit, i wad wondering about that move! Mini deserves a ton of respect despite the L
I thought this was quite well known to use as a defensive trick to stop cannon rush. Sunken next to hatch but out of cannon range has extra reach to defend hatchery, i thought it was deliberate rather than a bug prehaps because of the annoyance/power of cannon rushes (including fastest/other game maps) in early Bnet.
If you're on other browsers, you can use the bookmarklet I made using the code in the above extension. To make this work, create a New bookmark, add a title (e.g "Fix broken images"), then in the URL field paste the code behind this link. I made a back up for the code over here.
To use this, go to the page with broken images, then left click the bookmark in the bookmarks bar. I tested this bookmarklet on Chrome and on Firefox so far, but it should work with others as well.
Thanks to yldzhanhandan for making this extension and also thanks to you, StRyKeR, for making this thread!
EPT![[image loading]](http://dl.dropbox.com/u/4422/TL/sunken/lolwad.JPG)
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Maybe this is how Jaedong survived that fast Cannon rush (can't remember the specific game)? 
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