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Oystein
Norway1602 Posts
On December 02 2009 05:49 KwarK wrote: Elaborate on the 2 gate version and I'll edit it in. Will look up the JD game now. ![[image loading]](http://www.repdepot.net/img/thumbs/25508.jpg) Here is a rep of a game I played earlier today when I do sort of the build I described, except I was dead tired and forgot to make legspeed asap once I got gas for it after the first sair. So speed will come sooner normally. PS. Don`t ask me how I manage to lose the game lol. | ||
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CaptainPlatypus
United States852 Posts
On December 02 2009 06:10 KwarK wrote: Find that way and tell me and I'll put it in. But I just don't see it without compromising corsair count and corsair count is the only way you can get away with skipping archives. I've obviously not looked at this in anywhere near as much detail as you, but it takes about 20 seconds (real time, not game time) to gather 100 gas. If you cut sairs for 20 seconds (at just before the 6 minute mark would be the right timing to finish +1 for the push, I think? you start attacking at about 7:45) you won't be that much more vulnerable to early muta pressure - at worst, you'll have one fewer corsair when an attack hits - and since you already have corsairs out at that point, zerg doesn't have an ovie in your base to see the cut, which means he isn't very likely to go mutalisks at all. You'd have to be slightly less aggressive about overlord hunting during the push due to scourge, though, and overall it's definitely taking a risk, which is something to avoid in a rush build.  | ||
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Pokebunny
United States10654 Posts
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CaptainPlatypus
United States852 Posts
On December 02 2009 06:32 Pokebunny wrote: It's more important to not die the one time he does than to take advantage the nine times he doesn't, at least in my mind. Sounds to me like +1 would be better than 1 extra sair, but I don't even play P/Z. Why would you prefer to pump sairs? They are better for muta defense but most of the time zerg doesn't go muta first.  Then again, the difference could conceivably be made up just by being very cautious with your corsairs and making absolutely sure you don't lose them to scourge. After all, getting the extra oomph +1 would provide your push is a lot more significant than one extra overlord kill, isn't it? | ||
KwarK
United States44374 Posts
On December 02 2009 06:24 CaptainPlatypus wrote: I've obviously not looked at this in anywhere near as much detail as you, but it takes about 20 seconds (real time, not game time) to gather 100 gas. If you cut sairs for 20 seconds (at just before the 6 minute mark would be the right timing to finish +1 for the push, I think? you start attacking at about 7:45) you won't be that much more vulnerable to early muta pressure - at worst, you'll have one fewer corsair when an attack hits - and since you already have corsairs out at that point, zerg doesn't have an ovie in your base to see the cut, which means he isn't very likely to go mutalisks at all. You'd have to be slightly less aggressive about overlord hunting during the push due to scourge, though, and overall it's definitely taking a risk, which is something to avoid in a rush build. The attack starts at roughly 7:00 game time. +1 has to be your first 100 gas to be done in time so we're talking about delaying the stargate (and every subsequent sair) 20 seconds. You can't just pick a time when you can spare 100 gas, it has to coincide with speed. That said, I suppose it's a variation worth knowing if you have a read on the player that he doesn't like to muta. But I'd not be happy doing it vs a worse player because I think it is a riskier build, the heart of this build are the corsairs providing air defence. Once you start compromising that you're on the slippery slope to blind no air defence 4 gate +1 zealot rush (which owns if you luck out and they don't muta). | ||
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CaptainPlatypus
United States852 Posts
On December 02 2009 06:41 KwarK wrote: The attack starts at roughly 7:00 game time. +1 has to be your first 100 gas to be done in time so we're talking about delaying the stargate Ah, didn't realize it took so long to research - I was under the impression it was only ~2 minutes, and I was going by the time your zealots started hitting stuff, not when they set up camp in front of your opponent's base. Never mind! | ||
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jimminy_kriket
Canada5545 Posts
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KwarK
United States44374 Posts
On December 02 2009 06:44 CaptainPlatypus wrote: Ah, didn't realize it took so long to research - I was under the impression it was only ~2 minutes, and I was going by the time your zealots started hitting stuff, not when they set up camp in front of your opponent's base. Never mind! That game I messed up, I should have moved out about 6:40 and hit stuff at 7:00. | ||
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CaptainPlatypus
United States852 Posts
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Saracen
United States5139 Posts
Also, when is the timing to take your third assuming you don't kill him right off the bat? | ||
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endy
Switzerland8970 Posts
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KwarK
United States44374 Posts
On December 02 2009 05:36 Oystein wrote: Edit: For reference watch Jaedong vs Draco @ destination from WCG where he completely shuts down a similar kind of early zeal aggression with just a handful of lings and drones messing up the zeals. Draco's attack was several minutes later. He went 2nd gas, dragoons, 5 gateways and all sorts of fancy jazz. Looks similar but attacks way after the timing window when hatcheries kick in. | ||
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KwarK
United States44374 Posts
On December 02 2009 07:25 Saracen wrote: Thanks, KwarK. But how is this different from the no +1 speedzeal rushes that people have been doing for the past 5 months? (I think Oystein mentioned it). No 2nd gas. No cannons in main. No archives. But yeah it's pretty similar to some versions of those. Was there a decent guide to no +1 speedzeal rushes on tl already? On December 02 2009 07:25 Saracen wrote: Also, when is the timing to take your third assuming you don't kill him right off the bat? Very game flow dependent. I like to continue to mass up off 2 base and apply pressure if I can but if they lurk or muta it's often easier to just expand and macro. | ||
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Nytefish
United Kingdom4282 Posts
However it still feels a lot like you're relying on the zerg to respond incorrectly. In a way it feels like when I'm doing a reaver drop PvT. If the terran expects it he will fend it off easily and gain a huge econ advantage and I end up thinking "ah shit, should have expanded". But zergs have their floating maphacks so unlike the terrans they have all the necessary information in front of them. I feel like they only lose to it if they simply don't know how to counter it. But the more viable builds, the better so thanks for your take on this. | ||
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andiCR
Costa Rica2273 Posts
I love you Kwark | ||
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Knickknack
United States1187 Posts
"The mutalisk is at the heart of ZvP. It's mobility and damage (best damage/cost/tech level of any air unit) makes it hugely powerful. Only builds that directly deal with the mutalisk, such as FE corsair openings or templar openings, can cope with a zerg who knows what you're doing." Watching the replays, this build takes into account the muta threat. The most direct way to do this is corsair. The defining part of this build is lots of corsair, and lots of zealot. This is basically a sair/zealot build. A variation would be zealots before sair, such as 3gate speedzelot to 2stargate sair like backho did some time. To compare, you can see build of nevuk and mine here and in his thread: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=102858 It allows for optimized timing of 7min 10 +1speedlots done on 2gateways from a forge-2cannons-nexus start. Typical follow is fast archives with only 1-2sair. Now, this build is designed as a hard hitting 1time attack just after 7min, and then it goes into fast archives tech/defense/reactive mode. Your build plan has that same ~7min attack, but it is not a 1time attack, as you keep rallying zealots and making corsairs. This results in rather slow archives tech (as well as slow +1upgarde, and slow 2nd gas). The advantge this build has though is more continuous pressure with zealot/corsair. So my main concern with this build is how it goes long term with the rather slow storm tech (completed 9:00+) Where I might see it having problems, is where zerg does not lose many ovies, has a nice sim city, and masses hydra. If you actually want to turn it into a more exact guide with build orders I'll be willing to look it over. --edited post | ||
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andiCR
Costa Rica2273 Posts
EDIT: Yep, crashes at 2.40 for me  any ideas??btw, im gonna try the build and give general insights later tonight. good job | ||
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DeaNotiC.
Sweden2 Posts
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jalstar
United States8198 Posts
I'm assuming you just go into more tech if your opponent scouts it and prepares a good defense? Like do you go sair/DT? | ||
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Nevuk
United States16280 Posts
On December 02 2009 09:01 Knickknack wrote: Good basic pvz build outline that gives players a basic framework for what to do. I agree with you in the other thread where you write: "The mutalisk is at the heart of ZvP. It's mobility and damage (best damage/cost/tech level of any air unit) makes it hugely powerful. Only builds that directly deal with the mutalisk, such as FE corsair openings or templar openings, can cope with a zerg who knows what you're doing." And this build allows for that. Sair for the muta, and speedzelots to allow some aggression. The defining part of this build is the late archives/constant zealots. In other words, its basically a sair/zealot build. A variation would zealots before sair, such as 3gate speedzelot to 2stargate sair like backho did some time. To compare, you can see build of nevuk and mine here and in his thread: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=102858 It allows for optimized timing of 7min 10 +1speedlots done on 2gateways from a forge-2cannons-nexus start. Typical follow is fast archives with only 1-2sair. Now that build has a harder hitting 1time attack than your build, but then goes into tech/reactive mode, while yours has legs sooner due to no +1 and that allows you to move out sooner and you just keep going with sair/zealot. So I wonder how that goes long term, and how this build goes with its really late storms. You'd need storm once they get a ball of hydras that can melt zealots. If you actually want to turn it into a more exact guide with build orders I'll be willing to look it over. There's a liquipedia page for builds like this that I set up : http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft/Protoss_Early_Timing_Windows_(vs._Zerg)#Protoss_Builds I was planning on adding an additional section for infernal's version of it, but I totally forgot to do that. I did include an explanation of the difference in the "variants" section, though. It is useful to compile them all in one place though, I feel. | ||
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