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For those who have not seen game, Bisu vs Jaedong @ destination:
http://www.teamliquid.net/tlpd/games/29764_Bisu_vs_Jaedong/vod
I was considering writing about this build before this game happened for several reasons. First, Jmave made a thread about how to counter to 3hat spire 5hat hydra build: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=101988. His idea was basically 8min attack with speedlot and +1wep/+1armor. People mostly shot it down, but I thought zealot timing attack was a good idea vs such a late unit producing build as 3hat spire 5hat hydra that has to defend two spots - nat & 3rd. Second, people have been talking about having a hard time in pvz recently. Third, I saw several reps where people did this build, namely inflorescence vs ret (http://www.gosugamers.net/starcraft/replays/23322). However, I think players have not done the build as well as possible, significantly limiting its potential.
This is basically the build bisu used. Il'l show my build later.
Standard opening vs 9 pool:
8p-scout, 12forge, 14cc (two cannons), Nexus, gate, pylon, assim
Then basic build plan:
fast 2nd gas, constant zealots, sair, +1 and 2nd gate, legupgrade, zealots out of 2gateways. Bisu follows up with a quick robo and archon/speedlot.
The major element of this build is the two gate speedlot timing attack with late +1. Speed kicks in ~7:20, and +1 ~7:40. The +1 is what I figure Infernal was talking about here: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=102702¤tpage=3. Bisu seeing Jaedongs limited defense bisu attacked with just speed, then went back in when +1 finished.
While I think this is a strong build, I think this loss was largely Jaedong's fault because he knew Bisu was going for +1, knew bisus zealot numbers, and knew about the 2nd gate. The zerg answer is to have good building placement, more sunk & more lings. The wtf moment was when Jaedong sent lings to bisus nat rather than this 3rd to defend vs zealots.
Now, how does Bisu's build differ from the one I came up with? I did not include a fast +1 or a fast 2nd gas, which allows me to build a 2nd gate faster and more zealots quicker. This makes for 8speedlot attack <7min with +2zealots by 7:10, compared to Bisu's ~7:20 7speedlot attack, or ~7:40 9speedlot +1 attack. So, while my version makes for a stronger attack, the +1 and fast 2nd gas help more later on. I should also mention with my build the fast 2nd gate would preferable be hidden from your opponent, for instance at top on destination you can hide a 2nd gate up on top left of nat, or just stick it up next to stargate to hint at a 2stargate build. Example rep:
http://repdepot.net/replay.php?id=21786
Example rep of +1speedlot: http://repdepot.net/replay.php?id=21820
Thoughts on this game and this build? Does it put protoss on even ground with 3hat spire 5hat hydra?
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So now protoss is reverting back to early +1 speed lot builds?
i'm pretty sure this is not anything new.
btw why do you have 14cc...... your terran now not toss?
imo faster carpace and a few more sunks/lings would counter this opening fairly easy or even fast mutas. regardless its one of those things, if zerg can scout it then zerg is going to be able to deal with it (hopefully)
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It's not particularly new, I'm just talking about optimizing the build.
I just used "c" as abbreviation for cannon.
I tend to agree that zerg can scout this and thus can deal with this adequately, but the same can be made for nearly anything. At the moment at least most zergs don't seem to be not be used to this hard of an attack after sair.
Vs. a muta build, well fast sair allows P to scout that. While this build does have a bit slow archive tech, it gains the ability to run around the map early with fast speedlot. From the timings I see, Vs a fast 3hat muta P is going to be attacking your base just as muta are poping...not too fun to deal with.
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Still if zerg does go muta, and has a good enough sim city at their choke, then the muta will kill your lots- and you won't have any map control for quite some time because you are delaying archives. So really you are just giving away air superiority- then zerg should go with the old school muta lurker transition to stop you from ever moving out.
I don't think that conceding air superiority to zerg while also having late archives is really a sound idea.
just my 2 cents.
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Also if you are going a 3 hatch build- muta come out way faster than 7:10. If the zerg scouts this build, and gets muta- sending out your speed zeals is going to be a waste.
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The problem with your build is that the lack of +1 allows for your zealots to get absolutely raped by good building postion and sunkens/rallied zerglings to clean the attack up. Bisus +1 allowed his zealots to make the rallied lings virtually useless once the sunks were dead.
Also fast speedlots after sair should never beat true 3 hatch mutas coming out, check your timings.
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It seems like in ZvP(FE), zerg's early goal is to drone whore as much as possible. Even if the Overlord sees forge spinning, the zerg won't invest in extra defense unless the zerg spots a large zealot force with suicide lings. Would proxying the second gate somewhere to hide the true zealot count be better?
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just a really random thought but would it be possible to either cannon or get a dragoon in an area around your main so you could deny the zerg from scouting? I would suppose that if you did this, then you could either go for a stargate or gateway first opening and zerg wouldn't be privy to either. If a speed zeal attack hits, and zerg doesn't have any muta- it's going to be ugly for the zerg.
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nosliw--I definitely recommend hiding gate if possible, or sticking next to stargate to hint at 2stargate build. If zerg does not see this coming it should be nasty. Proxy pylon and gateway is possible I suppose, but bit risky with overlords and lings around. My example rep builds 2nd gate after only 2pylons, so you will end up having to get a 3rd for proxy gate while you get +1 or fast 2nd gas in meantime due to delay.
haha, I appreciate the zergs coming out of the woodwork to tell me problems with the build. Fact is this is a well timed, good build that does work, but it is not a cure-all either.
As for the lack of +1 in my build, look at the game and timings again. My version would have 10zealots attacking 30seonds before bisu even had the +1 done. My version is a stronger attack, unless perhaps there are large numbers of lings, which there were not. Still +1 may be better overall.
I agree that good building placement+sunk+lings is one good way to deal with this, so why didn't jaedong do it?
Perhaps 3hat muta is the best way to go vs this, so why didn't jaedong do it? I'd like to see 3hat muta timings with example rep, which is able to deal with 3zealot out at 5min, and then a 7:10 10zealot attack. So then lots run away and p has cannons up, zerg goes lurker...zerg at bit of advantage I guess, but still does not tell us outcome of game.
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I cannot tell you why jaedong didn't do the following.
However i can tell you that if i see a spinning forge- or any gateways i immediately switch to muta and delay my den. That really is the only problem i see with this build. Like sixghost said, i am going to get my muta out before you are going to be at my door step. at 7:10 i will already have muta out.
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United States47024 Posts
On October 01 2009 03:08 Knickknack wrote:
nosliw--I definitely recommend hiding gate if possible, or sticking next to stargate to hint at 2stargate build. If zerg does not see this coming it should be nasty. Proxy pylon and gateway is possible I suppose, but bit risky with overlords and lings around. My example rep builds 2nd gate after only 2pylons, so you will end up having to get a 3rd for proxy gate while you get +1 or fast 2nd gas in meantime due to delay.
haha, I appreciate the zergs coming out of the woodwork to tell me problems with the build. Fact is this is a well timed, good build that does work, but it is not a cure-all either.
As for the lack of +1 in my build, look at the game and timings again. My version would have 10zealots attacking 30seonds before bisu even had the +1 done. My version is a stronger attack, unless perhaps there are large numbers of lings, which there were not. Still +1 may be better overall.
I agree that good building placement+sunk+lings is one good way to deal with this, so why didn't jaedong do it?
Perhaps 3hat muta is the best way to go vs this, so why didn't jaedong do it? I'd like to see 3hat muta timings with example rep, which is able to deal with 3zealot out at 5min, and then a 7:10 10zealot attack. So then lots run away and p has cannons up, zerg goes lurker...zerg at bit of advantage I guess, but still does not tell us outcome of game.
I think the Stargate is the key. Traditional +1 speedlot builds don't get the stargate, for a faster push (and because the timing works out). In fact, the problem with 5hatch hydra vs. modern PvZ is that no-stargate almost guarantees +1 speedlots, and a stargate almost guarantees no +1 speedlots. With this, Zerg has to guess a little, and that could be enough.
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iNfeRnaL
Germany1908 Posts
Glad somebody made a post about this.
First of all OP's buildorder was pretty close, however I think mine is a bit closer:
8 pyl
11 forge
14 can
15 can
15 nex
16 gate
16 pylon 2
17 gas
follow up with core, stargate 2nd gas, 1-0, 3rd pylon, citadel.
--- maintain zealot production, do NOT miss a fucking pylon ---
Important however is that you do NOT make the citadel too early.
If you're not Bisu it is better to have both 1-0 and legspeed ready at the same time - you don't want to attack before it anyway! (more on that later)
2nd gate is at like 46-50 supply.
Make only 2 corsairs if not massive muta rush.
Make a cannon right after your 2nd sair.
Get gate 3 + 4.
After 30 supply or so the timing gets really really tricky so that's the part you gotta figure out for yourself but that's basically it.
The plot of this build is 1-0 just RAPES zerglings.
If you watch the VOD closely you will see Bisu even WANTED Jaedong to make even more lings - he was rushing out with 7 zealots (and believe me Jaedong stops 7 zealots with 1 sunk+drone+ling at that time) and had no 1-0 - however Bisu did just fake it out a bit, run around, made Jaedong produce MANY lings which he needed to make in that situation (watch the VOD clearly!) then waited until 6 more zealots finished (timing of gate 3+4 is essential about it, I don't get it done proper yet...) and in the meantime his +1 was done as well.
You may ask why does Bisu want him to build lings right now?
Logic of larva etc - if you waste larva on 24 lings (which die to 14 zealots with +1 as if they're nothing - literally all they do is buy you time to make hydras)
IF you continue the thought Bisu has +2 working after this attack and you have the gas for 3 archons AND a robo (!) or robo + storm + 5 templar.
Keep in mind Zerg just wasted 12+++ larva on Zerglings which means he has 12 drones less.
Now the Zerg has 2 choices:
a) Remain on extremely low drone count but still get your mutas at the right time out. [he lost 8 drones as well during Bisu's attack!]
b) Use the lurker-tech for something while getting some more drones to atleast supply the 5 hatches he had and then go for something like an army again.
Do you think Zerg likes to choose between these options?
Obviously this is no free win buildorder - but if you execute it proper and atleast get 5-6 drones while not suiciding all of your zealots (and making templars+robo while you're doing so) it may give you quite a decent advantage.
Also you can quite safely expand to a third using a sole zealot to clear out the scout-ling there because Zerg's force should be extremely busy while your zealots are roaming around and testing his defences...
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Um... it's basically just one of these builds tweaked somewhat :
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=99105
2 gateways at the natural one, specifically. The timing is closer to 7:30-40 than 8 minutes.
Edit : Your analysis of it was much better than mine, though. I'm really glad to see it being used by Bisu as I thought it had very strong potential to combat 5 hatch hydra.
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Calgary25980 Posts
Excuse my ignorance, but how is this different from the very standard 1 sair +1 zealot attack? I see absolutely no difference. This build has been used for years - it seems like bisu just got speed a little quicker and feigned pressure with zealots. Is that the difference? This elaborate thread would make me expect a monumental shift in timings or tactics, but I literally don't see anything but a standard build with one small tactical maneuver. What am I missing?
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Yea this is a pretty typical pvz build, or should be at least. But I don't see it being done too often (but maybe thats just me). The main things to talk about in this thread are this game specifically, and optimization of this build, such as bisus version with +1 vs mine. I'm mostly trying to open up some pvz discussion and give a build guideline for modern pvz which I think would help a lot of players that are having problems rather than look at imbalance threads.
Looks like a nice thread Nevuk, sorry i missed it first time around.
Thanks for posting Infernal.
Misrah, I agree 3hat muta is a good response. But, at last this build has potential for damage & pressures zerg to build more sunk/ling, which a passive build does not do at all.
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iNfeRnaL
Germany1908 Posts
@ Chill usually the fast 2nd gateway buildorder is timed so that you get 1-0 much much later, your gas amount is insane cause you keep on making zealots.
Many of those builds lately were timed so 1-0 on lots would finish when the 3 archon push is happening and not any further.
They just completely ignored the 1-0 cause they concluded that mutas make the zealots useless anyway, so you would need to arrive before they spawn. [hence the 6-7 zealots speed only no 1-0 attacks after sair] and also going 3+4th gate before temp tech after is rather new.
Its not a LOT what he changed but timingwise, trust me, you feel this difference big time.
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I officially dub thee, "Bisu build 2.0" he will 3-0 Jaedong next finals.
On topic, i agree with what is being pointed out that it was more than minor tweak in the build but was this tweaked to jaedong? or is the timing "safe" enough so to speak to be a viable build every game or deviation based on scouting info?
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I have been using this build in PvZ for a while now - I wasn't aware that it was new at all. A problem is that in many recent games, I see Zergs opting to go 5hatch into mutas or delayed lurkers or something, instead of just hydras. Personally, I used to go 5hatch delayed mutas into either hydras or lurkerling, and now I open 5hatch lurker. Sure, most Zergs probably go 5hatch hydra still, but I don't know if you should think of it as the norm.
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Calgary25980 Posts
On October 01 2009 05:03 iNfeRnaL wrote:
@ Chill usually the fast 2nd gateway buildorder is timed so that you get 1-0 much much later, your gas amount is insane cause you keep on making zealots.
Many of those builds lately were timed so 1-0 on lots would finish when the 3 archon push is happening and not any further.
They just completely ignored the 1-0 cause they concluded that mutas make the zealots useless anyway, so you would need to arrive before they spawn. [hence the 6-7 zealots speed only no 1-0 attacks after sair] and also going 3+4th gate before temp tech after is rather new.
Its not a LOT what he changed but timingwise, trust me, you feel this difference big time.
How is that possible? You make +1 first 100 gas, stargate at 150, citadel at 100. How could it possibly be any slower?
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EPT
