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I recently got really into working on my PvZ.. since its my weakest match up. Working on it has really broadened up my perspective on PvZ and significantly improved my reactions to scouting, instead of the usual playing-by-feel in handling certain things that I see.
Today, I took quite some time to come up with a build of my own that aims to counter the 5 hatch hydra build.
Without any form of harass, the zerg would make the transition to mass hydras around 6:50-7:00 mins into the game. I came up with a build that would allow you to have +1 armour and +1 attack speed lots by around 7:30, the timing that hydras are still not at critical mass just yet.
The good thing about this build is that even if you are not able to kill him straight off, you will be able to get ahead in upgrades and get up your tech at the same time. Most of the time, P goes for +1 attack but neglects the armour. Since zerg mostly goes for carapace upgrades now a days, having +1 armour and +1 attack will get you ahead in upgrades as you now have extra armour.
This build is a modified version of the 2 archon 5 gate zeal push.
Everything follows as standard except that I get a second forge right after my stargate. There is no need for an early citadel at this point as you only need the speed upgrade for now, which takes a shorter time than your upgrades. So you can get your second forge before citadel. The archons and templars can be later as you are most likely to be able to take out his third base with your existing zealots.
I won't be providing exact supply timings because PvZ revolves around what you see the zerg do i.e. overpool, 12 hatch, 4 pool etc. This build is not as applicable to 12 hatch as this build assumes that your opponent goes overpool as its the standard of 5 hatch hydra. In the case of 12 hatch, you should be able to get out your nex faster and so more gateways early on for a stronger push.
Upgrade +1 attack/armour once the second gate warps in. You should be okay on one gas for both the upgrades and for your corsair. Warp in 4 gates at a go right when you get the minerals after you started upgrading. Start your citadel right after you get 3 gateways and add the 4th one right after the citadel. Add templar archives right after you've started upgrading leg speed. Second gas right after corsair is out.
Its really important to keep your supply up at all times. Every few seconds here and there is accumulates and you could well get that push out 15 seconds faster with proper mechanics.
I myself am really weak in mechanics so in this replay, I lost but it was due to my lack of storms and really weak macro. This is on the D level and yes you may say that everything works on D but hey, at least its a contribution or someone of a higher calibre will be able to refine it more. I managed to take down his third hatchery right when he is able to make lurkers.
Since you are making zealots for most of the early part, you will have enough gas for quite a few templars and dragoons, in the case he goes for mass lurkers. I recommend getting a robo at the timing you push out at around 7:50. Storm upgrade at this point in time also, so that when you take out his third, you will have an army of goons, hts and lots with the addition of storm upgrades.
If possible you should already start making your way just a few seconds before all your upgrades finish. If timed right, all your upgrades, armour attack and speed will finish at the same time. This saves you around 15 seconds and you will be able to catch him without him even putting on his pants.
In summary, this build capitalises in you being ahead in upgrades and exploiting the timing of zerg's transition to mass hydras. Even if you are not able to kill him right away, you should be able to afford to get a later third and macro up much more to attack him in his nat-->main.
Again as I said, this build is just what I came up with and I'm only a D/D+ player.
Here is the replay where I used this.
http://repdepot.net/download.php?type=rep&id=21048&name=noobiezerg vs FoodlePenguin.rep
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I've really yet to find the time to try this out more. Hope you guys can try this out as well or point out to me anything that's flawed or needs to be changed or why this build won't work.
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idk if I was a zerg and saw my toss opponent going for two forges I'd probably put my spire to good use, but that's just me.
(cannot watch the replay, but if you lost and only did this once then it's probably not that effective of a build)
What's the benefit of getting +1 armor before speed, by the way?
Or +1 armor and delaying your storm tech?
Or +1 armor and delaying your corsair (1st or 2nd)?
Weigh out the possibilities. TBH in the early game getting a 2nd forge is wasteful as zealots cannot be made from that structure, so I can add to the above (+1 armor and a delayed gateway?). I'm typically starving for gas at the 7:30 part of the game, where most of my gas will go to sair, templar, storm upgrade, and after everything else, the +2 attack upgrade. Aside from that I could imagine my robotics facility to be late as a result, or I need to cut a templar or so. Forget about getting dragoons with range on 2 base 2 forge too. You want to minimize the delay between upgrades, so once that +1 attack/armor is complete I hope you're ready for +2 attack and +2 armor (very costly).
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I think LzGaMeR was doing a dual forge build PvZ, it consisted in a timing attack with 1/1 or 2/1. I remember this from his stream, but don´t know the exact buid order..
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Katowice25012 Posts
Why would you give us a replay where you lose? I'm not convinced at all from your post, and by not including a replay where you win there is almost no chance of me being able to see what merit this might have.
If this is to counter early carapace by zerg, why not just +1 armor with upgrade from first forge?
Why do you say in the post second gas after corsair is out when in the replay you get your second gas much earlier?
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agreed with earlier posts. If you didnt win with this ever in that replay, then this build really isn't all that viable.. because delaying ur storm tech, an extra corsair, or even preventing the building of another gateway is just too much of a loss in the early game to be sacrificing just so you can counter a 5 hatchery hydra push. my zvp on d level is pretty strong and speaking from a zerg perspective, that +1 armor wont help you much, really.. just because I'll have so many more units then you will + the fact that ill be able to pump them much faster than you.
mutalisks will own your build as well.
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I don't know if aggressive upgrades is viable for FE play, but if it is, you would probably do better to delay psionic storm a lot - you're relying on a large mass of mobile units (possibly DT also) to take map control, and templars are slow and expensive. If you're not going to get them in time to combat a normal hydra-heavy build, perhaps you should transition only after your third/killing his third. I don't know if skipping corsair for an earlier push is reasonable, but consider it - if you're getting units much earlier than normal, you should be able to push out and do land-based scouting.
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Ive seen  Stork use a similar fe fast 2forge build on Andromeda and completely owned his opponent. I forgot who though but i bet you could find on tlpd
edit: stork vs modesty
his was a transition out of the bisu build though not as fast as yours
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You say the weak point in 5hat hydra is ~8min, and you make a build that attacks at that time. That is why this build looks viable. Attack ~8min with 12speedlots +1/+1. I suppose anything that has this timing and masses up should work well, for instance something like 4gate speedlot, more zealots than this build but no ups.
I am assuming this timing window is correct and you can do significant damage. Obviously you are assuming vs. 5 hat hydra. So the question is what chance does the zerg have to scout your build, and can they react well enough to make your build not work well enough? How does this work vs other builds?
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On September 17 2009 00:31 Knickknack wrote:
You say the weak point in 5hat hydra is ~8min, and you make a build that attacks at that time. That is why this build looks viable. Attack ~8min with 12speedlots +1/+1. I suppose anything that has this timing and masses up should work well, for instance something like 4gate speedlot, more zealots than this build but no ups.
I am assuming this timing window is correct and you can do significant damage. Obviously you are assuming vs. 5 hat hydra. So the question is what chance does the zerg have to scout your build, and can they react well enough to make your build not work well enough? How does this work vs other builds?
I think an early goon to shoot away the overlord might be viable
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On September 17 2009 00:31 Knickknack wrote:
You say the weak point in 5hat hydra is ~8min, and you make a build that attacks at that time. That is why this build looks viable. Attack ~8min with 12speedlots +1/+1. I suppose anything that has this timing and masses up should work well, for instance something like 4gate speedlot, more zealots than this build but no ups.
I am assuming this timing window is correct and you can do significant damage. Obviously you are assuming vs. 5 hat hydra. So the question is what chance does the zerg have to scout your build, and can they react well enough to make your build not work well enough? How does this work vs other builds?
I think the key here is whether or not zerg can scout your second forge. The Savior build would crush this almost instantly, which is why you get that early corsair. Note that you are not required to delay your corsair in anyway using this build.
If anyone was wondering, you start both upgrades once second forge is done. At this point, your stargate is still warping and you will have enough gas to build your corsair right away after you start the upgrades.
The reason as to why you get the second gas right after ading the gateways is to bank in gas for the teched army after your timing attack. Therefore, you will have adequate resources to add your robo/obs and get HTs when this happens. The real reason why I lost that game was due to macro and mechanics. The timing attack worked really well and he wasn't able to stop it even with having lurkers.
As I said, I'm still working on it and I am currently not home at the moment to go refine it more. Hope this clears some things.
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okay but lets say he goes 3 hatch mutas? waste of 150 minerals early on no?
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On September 17 2009 07:16 JMave wrote:Show nested quote +On September 17 2009 00:31 Knickknack wrote:
You say the weak point in 5hat hydra is ~8min, and you make a build that attacks at that time. That is why this build looks viable. Attack ~8min with 12speedlots +1/+1. I suppose anything that has this timing and masses up should work well, for instance something like 4gate speedlot, more zealots than this build but no ups.
I am assuming this timing window is correct and you can do significant damage. Obviously you are assuming vs. 5 hat hydra. So the question is what chance does the zerg have to scout your build, and can they react well enough to make your build not work well enough? How does this work vs other builds?
I think the key here is whether or not zerg can scout your second forge. The Savior build would crush this almost instantly, which is why you get that early corsair. Note that you are not required to delay your corsair in anyway using this build. If anyone was wondering, you start both upgrades once second forge is done. At this point, your stargate is still warping and you will have enough gas to build your corsair right away after you start the upgrades. The reason as to why you get the second gas right after ading the gateways is to bank in gas for the teched army after your timing attack. Therefore, you will have adequate resources to add your robo/obs and get HTs when this happens. The real reason why I lost that game was due to macro and mechanics. The timing attack worked really well and he wasn't able to stop it even with having lurkers. As I said, I'm still working on it and I am currently not home at the moment to go refine it more. Hope this clears some things.
Not really. The problem with this build is the 250 minerals and 100 gas that is getting taken from somewhere else (I'm really guessing your Citadel timing will be forced to come later if everything else is going as planned in PvZ FE). You're missing this point that you need speed zealots and a templar tech to survive 5 hatch hydra. +1 armor is going to do shit in the long run, hence why you start your +1 armor as your 2nd or 3rd upgrade.
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On September 17 2009 12:42 Amber[LighT] wrote:Show nested quote +On September 17 2009 07:16 JMave wrote:On September 17 2009 00:31 Knickknack wrote:
You say the weak point in 5hat hydra is ~8min, and you make a build that attacks at that time. That is why this build looks viable. Attack ~8min with 12speedlots +1/+1. I suppose anything that has this timing and masses up should work well, for instance something like 4gate speedlot, more zealots than this build but no ups.
I am assuming this timing window is correct and you can do significant damage. Obviously you are assuming vs. 5 hat hydra. So the question is what chance does the zerg have to scout your build, and can they react well enough to make your build not work well enough? How does this work vs other builds?
I think the key here is whether or not zerg can scout your second forge. The Savior build would crush this almost instantly, which is why you get that early corsair. Note that you are not required to delay your corsair in anyway using this build. If anyone was wondering, you start both upgrades once second forge is done. At this point, your stargate is still warping and you will have enough gas to build your corsair right away after you start the upgrades. The reason as to why you get the second gas right after ading the gateways is to bank in gas for the teched army after your timing attack. Therefore, you will have adequate resources to add your robo/obs and get HTs when this happens. The real reason why I lost that game was due to macro and mechanics. The timing attack worked really well and he wasn't able to stop it even with having lurkers. As I said, I'm still working on it and I am currently not home at the moment to go refine it more. Hope this clears some things. Not really. The problem with this build is the 250 minerals and 100 gas that is getting taken from somewhere else (I'm really guessing your Citadel timing will be forced to come later if everything else is going as planned in PvZ FE). You're missing this point that you need speed zealots and a templar tech to survive 5 hatch hydra. +1 armor is going to do shit in the long run, hence why you start your +1 armor as your 2nd or 3rd upgrade.
Okay but its an attack even before his hydras reach a critical mass. By the time you take out his third base, he won't be having as much of a huge resource gain that he would be getting, hence allowing you to tech slightly later. You tech isn't as greatly delayed as it actually seems because you have sufficient gas to do reserach and make templars and add gateways at the point of your attack.
I mean well I'm not actually at a convenient state to try all this out now but I'll make further confirmations when I reach home.
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you're not at home a lot :/
storm > +1 armor imho until i see otherwise
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I usually get +1, speed and storm then add a second forge depending on how i feel. If i see his hydra micro is good then i add more Ht's for more storm if he is only decent with micro then i just use 2-3 ht's and depend on teh storms to rape the majority of his army,
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Honestly, this just sounds like a gimped version of +1 speedlot - which already beats hydra builds, the strength of 3 hat spire into 5 hat hydra is that they see no gate and no archives and can just be like "oh +1 speedlot sup i have mutas" and then your attack is worthless and you've lost map control and they can do whatever from there.
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The quick 2nd forge is best in conjunction with a 2 gate storm / defensive build where you take a quick third, and make your timing attack (with obs) for when you hit 2/0/2 upgrades. Otherwise it doesn't work vs good players.
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these days, a lot of zerg like to add 6-8 mutats after they saw some ht's. Then they snipe them and rush with hydra or control the map and mass expand, that's why this build can be effective cause you get the initiative of the agression and make you control the map for a while
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EPT
