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Leath
Canada1724 Posts
Seriously, I think people who used to do this build before were either not getting the stargate and adding 4 gateway quicker + no second gas as early. Bisu pretty much powered from 2 gates with sairs. I think this build is very nice. It will provide a good protection vs 3 hatch mutas, and will also allow p to get aggressive early on forcing zerg to make lings and stuff. | ||
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saltywet
Hong Kong1316 Posts
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icometowin
New Zealand41 Posts
Regardless if this is a new build or the same old speed zealot with +1 attack, we should baptize it "Bisu Build" Seriously, I think people who used to do this build before were either not getting the stargate and adding 4 gateway quicker + no second gas as early. Bisu pretty much powered from 2 gates with sairs. I think this build is very nice. It will provide a good protection vs 3 hatch mutas, and will also allow p to get aggressive early on forcing zerg to make lings and stuff. Yeah. Ive been getting the feeling that everytime i watch a match, Toss just dosent put oout enough early aggression and lets the Z get away with their expand and BO with perfect timing. This new build, like you said or even if it is one, allows the Toss to defend against Muta and attack in the window before lurks arrive. Its nice to force the Z to adjust their timings and force them to a low drone count rather then play passively like many of the tosses do nowadays and let the Z feel very safe with their macro which is not something you want them to do. | ||
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Shikyo
Finland33997 Posts
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Engineer
22 Posts
On October 01 2009 01:55 StorrZerg wrote: So now protoss is reverting back to early +1 speed lot builds? i'm pretty sure this is not anything new. btw why do you have 14cc...... your terran now not toss? imo faster carpace and a few more sunks/lings would counter this opening fairly easy or even fast mutas. regardless its one of those things, if zerg can scout it then zerg is going to be able to deal with it (hopefully) Since he is talking about Protoss, it should be obvious he's saying 14cc = 14 cannon, cannon and he put iin () after the 14cc...... | ||
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Engineer
22 Posts
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Ethelis
United States2400 Posts
On October 02 2009 08:05 Engineer wrote: My only complaint about this build is the late tech grades. If initial attack is defended properly by 1more sunken and/or another set of lings at his nat, you've just started tech grade to storm/archon. This would be a good map control strategy vs zerg from taking a 3rd gas/min. I just don't think it's an end all be all kind of strategy. Z would have to use larva on lings/drones on sunks earlier to defend this better therefore you hurt their economy even if they see this. im not sure how it would turn out as opposed a blocked regular +1 speed zeal attack. | ||
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JMave
Singapore1806 Posts
Before I get into the later +1 attack zealot timing, I want to talk about what I think the corsairs did in the game. In standard play, P usually gets 1 sair now due to the scourges that are a huge threat to the sairs. Thus, most Ps skip making more sairs and just use one for scouting. Bisu got more sairs this game, indicating that sair threat is growing. This will force JD to make more scourge to deal with the increasing corsair number. Scourge are gas-intensive. Because Z is on one gas for most part of the early game that's used for tech and ups, he can't afford to expend too much gas while he's on one gas. With less gas, he's now forced to make hydras instead of mutas because he won't have enough gas for making enough mutas of critical mass. Hence, muta switch is delayed significantly. This then allows P to get an archon later instead of having 2 with the zealots to push. This is the key because now instead of making templars, P can make a larger zealot count faster, making the push that much faster and stronger. Even when Z does switch to muta, cannons would have been made in the bases and archons would already have been done. Note that Bisu gets the archon in his second cycle of unit production. This all leads to why the zealot attack timing is now much faster. The attack is done right before the switch to hydra pumping can be done; the timing when his hydra army is small. Because the army is now small, he can delay +1 slightly to make his push faster. Note how Bisu deals with the muta switch as his archons are made in his second and third cycle of units. | ||
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evanthebouncy!
United States12796 Posts
Bisu rush, goes back and makes jaedong waste money on zerglings, and lots of terran would push out with naked marines, make zerg waste money on sunk/lings only not to attack, but attack later with medic to break while zerg is trying to mend his economical damage. poor zerg :/ | ||
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ProoM
Lithuania1741 Posts
On October 01 2009 01:55 StorrZerg wrote: So now protoss is reverting back to early +1 speed lot builds? i'm pretty sure this is not anything new. btw why do you have 14cc...... your terran now not toss? imo faster carpace and a few more sunks/lings would counter this opening fairly easy or even fast mutas. regardless its one of those things, if zerg can scout it then zerg is going to be able to deal with it (hopefully) Exactly, 3 hatch muta timing is ~7:15 if I'm right, if Z recognizes this stuff and decides not to put 2 more hatches and to go for mutas, its gg. :} | ||
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Ethelis
United States2400 Posts
On October 03 2009 06:13 ProoM wrote: Exactly, 3 hatch muta timing is ~7:15 if I'm right, if Z recognizes this stuff and decides not to put 2 more hatches and to go for mutas, its gg. :} Bisu didnt stop making sairs...shouldnt roughly 3 sairs be out? (i dont know my timings so someone correct me) | ||
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icometowin
New Zealand41 Posts
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FabledIntegral
United States9232 Posts
On October 03 2009 06:19 xMiragex wrote: Bisu didnt stop making sairs...shouldnt roughly 3 sairs be out? (i dont know my timings so someone correct me) Vs three hatch muta you'd have probably 2 sairs out. I know the first sair has enough time after scouting 3 hatch muta to go and kill a single overlord (typically) before running off back to the base. That or my timings are just off as a Zerg  . | ||
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Nevuk
United States16280 Posts
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jalstar
United States8198 Posts
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Nevuk
United States16280 Posts
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GreEny K
Germany7312 Posts
On October 01 2009 01:55 StorrZerg wrote: So now protoss is reverting back to early +1 speed lot builds? i'm pretty sure this is not anything new. btw why do you have 14cc...... your terran now not toss? imo faster carpace and a few more sunks/lings would counter this opening fairly easy or even fast mutas. regardless its one of those things, if zerg can scout it then zerg is going to be able to deal with it (hopefully) Pretty much going back to +1 yeah, since Z figured out how to capitalize on the P's later attacks. But i see it going back and forth between normal play and just doing +1 timing attacks. | ||
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Knickknack
United States1187 Posts
Pretty much this build. http://www.iccup.com/starcraft/replays/79153.html | ||
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hifriend
China7935 Posts
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Ethelis
United States2400 Posts
On October 12 2009 07:36 hifriend wrote: Old build with some minor tweaks. It does not counter 5 hatch due to all the switching back and forth between hydra and muta of todays zergs. Plus most zergs are pretty used to early zealot pressure at this point and are therefor very able in building safe sim cities that will insta rape any number of zealots. like jaedong... i honestly think its a good idea as long as the P doesnt compromise himself in any way for it to be backfired. even if the Z defends it, he wastes larva sooner on fighting units than drones. at what expense of the P? virtually none or none at all. | ||
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