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For those who have not seen game, Bisu vs Jaedong @ destination:
http://www.teamliquid.net/tlpd/games/29764_Bisu_vs_Jaedong/vod
I was considering writing about this build before this game happened for several reasons. First, Jmave made a thread about how to counter to 3hat spire 5hat hydra build: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=101988. His idea was basically 8min attack with speedlot and +1wep/+1armor. People mostly shot it down, but I thought zealot timing attack was a good idea vs such a late unit producing build as 3hat spire 5hat hydra that has to defend two spots - nat & 3rd. Second, people have been talking about having a hard time in pvz recently. Third, I saw several reps where people did this build, namely inflorescence vs ret (http://www.gosugamers.net/starcraft/replays/23322). However, I think players have not done the build as well as possible, significantly limiting its potential.
This is basically the build bisu used. Il'l show my build later.
Standard opening vs 9 pool:
8p-scout, 12forge, 14cc (two cannons), Nexus, gate, pylon, assim
Then basic build plan:
fast 2nd gas, constant zealots, sair, +1 and 2nd gate, legupgrade, zealots out of 2gateways. Bisu follows up with a quick robo and archon/speedlot.
The major element of this build is the two gate speedlot timing attack with late +1. Speed kicks in ~7:20, and +1 ~7:40. The +1 is what I figure Infernal was talking about here: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=102702¤tpage=3. Bisu seeing Jaedongs limited defense bisu attacked with just speed, then went back in when +1 finished.
While I think this is a strong build, I think this loss was largely Jaedong's fault because he knew Bisu was going for +1, knew bisus zealot numbers, and knew about the 2nd gate. The zerg answer is to have good building placement, more sunk & more lings. The wtf moment was when Jaedong sent lings to bisus nat rather than this 3rd to defend vs zealots.
Now, how does Bisu's build differ from the one I came up with? I did not include a fast +1 or a fast 2nd gas, which allows me to build a 2nd gate faster and more zealots quicker. This makes for 8speedlot attack <7min with +2zealots by 7:10, compared to Bisu's ~7:20 7speedlot attack, or ~7:40 9speedlot +1 attack. So, while my version makes for a stronger attack, the +1 and fast 2nd gas help more later on. I should also mention with my build the fast 2nd gate would preferable be hidden from your opponent, for instance at top on destination you can hide a 2nd gate up on top left of nat, or just stick it up next to stargate to hint at a 2stargate build. Example rep:
http://repdepot.net/replay.php?id=21786
Example rep of +1speedlot: http://repdepot.net/replay.php?id=21820
Thoughts on this game and this build? Does it put protoss on even ground with 3hat spire 5hat hydra?
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So now protoss is reverting back to early +1 speed lot builds?
i'm pretty sure this is not anything new.
btw why do you have 14cc...... your terran now not toss?
imo faster carpace and a few more sunks/lings would counter this opening fairly easy or even fast mutas. regardless its one of those things, if zerg can scout it then zerg is going to be able to deal with it (hopefully)
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It's not particularly new, I'm just talking about optimizing the build.
I just used "c" as abbreviation for cannon.
I tend to agree that zerg can scout this and thus can deal with this adequately, but the same can be made for nearly anything. At the moment at least most zergs don't seem to be not be used to this hard of an attack after sair.
Vs. a muta build, well fast sair allows P to scout that. While this build does have a bit slow archive tech, it gains the ability to run around the map early with fast speedlot. From the timings I see, Vs a fast 3hat muta P is going to be attacking your base just as muta are poping...not too fun to deal with.
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Still if zerg does go muta, and has a good enough sim city at their choke, then the muta will kill your lots- and you won't have any map control for quite some time because you are delaying archives. So really you are just giving away air superiority- then zerg should go with the old school muta lurker transition to stop you from ever moving out.
I don't think that conceding air superiority to zerg while also having late archives is really a sound idea.
just my 2 cents.
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Also if you are going a 3 hatch build- muta come out way faster than 7:10. If the zerg scouts this build, and gets muta- sending out your speed zeals is going to be a waste.
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The problem with your build is that the lack of +1 allows for your zealots to get absolutely raped by good building postion and sunkens/rallied zerglings to clean the attack up. Bisus +1 allowed his zealots to make the rallied lings virtually useless once the sunks were dead.
Also fast speedlots after sair should never beat true 3 hatch mutas coming out, check your timings.
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It seems like in ZvP(FE), zerg's early goal is to drone whore as much as possible. Even if the Overlord sees forge spinning, the zerg won't invest in extra defense unless the zerg spots a large zealot force with suicide lings. Would proxying the second gate somewhere to hide the true zealot count be better?
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just a really random thought but would it be possible to either cannon or get a dragoon in an area around your main so you could deny the zerg from scouting? I would suppose that if you did this, then you could either go for a stargate or gateway first opening and zerg wouldn't be privy to either. If a speed zeal attack hits, and zerg doesn't have any muta- it's going to be ugly for the zerg.
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nosliw--I definitely recommend hiding gate if possible, or sticking next to stargate to hint at 2stargate build. If zerg does not see this coming it should be nasty. Proxy pylon and gateway is possible I suppose, but bit risky with overlords and lings around. My example rep builds 2nd gate after only 2pylons, so you will end up having to get a 3rd for proxy gate while you get +1 or fast 2nd gas in meantime due to delay.
haha, I appreciate the zergs coming out of the woodwork to tell me problems with the build. Fact is this is a well timed, good build that does work, but it is not a cure-all either.
As for the lack of +1 in my build, look at the game and timings again. My version would have 10zealots attacking 30seonds before bisu even had the +1 done. My version is a stronger attack, unless perhaps there are large numbers of lings, which there were not. Still +1 may be better overall.
I agree that good building placement+sunk+lings is one good way to deal with this, so why didn't jaedong do it?
Perhaps 3hat muta is the best way to go vs this, so why didn't jaedong do it? I'd like to see 3hat muta timings with example rep, which is able to deal with 3zealot out at 5min, and then a 7:10 10zealot attack. So then lots run away and p has cannons up, zerg goes lurker...zerg at bit of advantage I guess, but still does not tell us outcome of game.
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I cannot tell you why jaedong didn't do the following.
However i can tell you that if i see a spinning forge- or any gateways i immediately switch to muta and delay my den. That really is the only problem i see with this build. Like sixghost said, i am going to get my muta out before you are going to be at my door step. at 7:10 i will already have muta out.
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United States47024 Posts
On October 01 2009 03:08 Knickknack wrote:
nosliw--I definitely recommend hiding gate if possible, or sticking next to stargate to hint at 2stargate build. If zerg does not see this coming it should be nasty. Proxy pylon and gateway is possible I suppose, but bit risky with overlords and lings around. My example rep builds 2nd gate after only 2pylons, so you will end up having to get a 3rd for proxy gate while you get +1 or fast 2nd gas in meantime due to delay.
haha, I appreciate the zergs coming out of the woodwork to tell me problems with the build. Fact is this is a well timed, good build that does work, but it is not a cure-all either.
As for the lack of +1 in my build, look at the game and timings again. My version would have 10zealots attacking 30seonds before bisu even had the +1 done. My version is a stronger attack, unless perhaps there are large numbers of lings, which there were not. Still +1 may be better overall.
I agree that good building placement+sunk+lings is one good way to deal with this, so why didn't jaedong do it?
Perhaps 3hat muta is the best way to go vs this, so why didn't jaedong do it? I'd like to see 3hat muta timings with example rep, which is able to deal with 3zealot out at 5min, and then a 7:10 10zealot attack. So then lots run away and p has cannons up, zerg goes lurker...zerg at bit of advantage I guess, but still does not tell us outcome of game.
I think the Stargate is the key. Traditional +1 speedlot builds don't get the stargate, for a faster push (and because the timing works out). In fact, the problem with 5hatch hydra vs. modern PvZ is that no-stargate almost guarantees +1 speedlots, and a stargate almost guarantees no +1 speedlots. With this, Zerg has to guess a little, and that could be enough.
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iNfeRnaL
Germany1908 Posts
Glad somebody made a post about this.
First of all OP's buildorder was pretty close, however I think mine is a bit closer:
8 pyl
11 forge
14 can
15 can
15 nex
16 gate
16 pylon 2
17 gas
follow up with core, stargate 2nd gas, 1-0, 3rd pylon, citadel.
--- maintain zealot production, do NOT miss a fucking pylon ---
Important however is that you do NOT make the citadel too early.
If you're not Bisu it is better to have both 1-0 and legspeed ready at the same time - you don't want to attack before it anyway! (more on that later)
2nd gate is at like 46-50 supply.
Make only 2 corsairs if not massive muta rush.
Make a cannon right after your 2nd sair.
Get gate 3 + 4.
After 30 supply or so the timing gets really really tricky so that's the part you gotta figure out for yourself but that's basically it.
The plot of this build is 1-0 just RAPES zerglings.
If you watch the VOD closely you will see Bisu even WANTED Jaedong to make even more lings - he was rushing out with 7 zealots (and believe me Jaedong stops 7 zealots with 1 sunk+drone+ling at that time) and had no 1-0 - however Bisu did just fake it out a bit, run around, made Jaedong produce MANY lings which he needed to make in that situation (watch the VOD clearly!) then waited until 6 more zealots finished (timing of gate 3+4 is essential about it, I don't get it done proper yet...) and in the meantime his +1 was done as well.
You may ask why does Bisu want him to build lings right now?
Logic of larva etc - if you waste larva on 24 lings (which die to 14 zealots with +1 as if they're nothing - literally all they do is buy you time to make hydras)
IF you continue the thought Bisu has +2 working after this attack and you have the gas for 3 archons AND a robo (!) or robo + storm + 5 templar.
Keep in mind Zerg just wasted 12+++ larva on Zerglings which means he has 12 drones less.
Now the Zerg has 2 choices:
a) Remain on extremely low drone count but still get your mutas at the right time out. [he lost 8 drones as well during Bisu's attack!]
b) Use the lurker-tech for something while getting some more drones to atleast supply the 5 hatches he had and then go for something like an army again.
Do you think Zerg likes to choose between these options?
Obviously this is no free win buildorder - but if you execute it proper and atleast get 5-6 drones while not suiciding all of your zealots (and making templars+robo while you're doing so) it may give you quite a decent advantage.
Also you can quite safely expand to a third using a sole zealot to clear out the scout-ling there because Zerg's force should be extremely busy while your zealots are roaming around and testing his defences...
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Um... it's basically just one of these builds tweaked somewhat :
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=99105
2 gateways at the natural one, specifically. The timing is closer to 7:30-40 than 8 minutes.
Edit : Your analysis of it was much better than mine, though. I'm really glad to see it being used by Bisu as I thought it had very strong potential to combat 5 hatch hydra.
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Calgary25980 Posts
Excuse my ignorance, but how is this different from the very standard 1 sair +1 zealot attack? I see absolutely no difference. This build has been used for years - it seems like bisu just got speed a little quicker and feigned pressure with zealots. Is that the difference? This elaborate thread would make me expect a monumental shift in timings or tactics, but I literally don't see anything but a standard build with one small tactical maneuver. What am I missing?
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Yea this is a pretty typical pvz build, or should be at least. But I don't see it being done too often (but maybe thats just me). The main things to talk about in this thread are this game specifically, and optimization of this build, such as bisus version with +1 vs mine. I'm mostly trying to open up some pvz discussion and give a build guideline for modern pvz which I think would help a lot of players that are having problems rather than look at imbalance threads.
Looks like a nice thread Nevuk, sorry i missed it first time around.
Thanks for posting Infernal.
Misrah, I agree 3hat muta is a good response. But, at last this build has potential for damage & pressures zerg to build more sunk/ling, which a passive build does not do at all.
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iNfeRnaL
Germany1908 Posts
@ Chill usually the fast 2nd gateway buildorder is timed so that you get 1-0 much much later, your gas amount is insane cause you keep on making zealots.
Many of those builds lately were timed so 1-0 on lots would finish when the 3 archon push is happening and not any further.
They just completely ignored the 1-0 cause they concluded that mutas make the zealots useless anyway, so you would need to arrive before they spawn. [hence the 6-7 zealots speed only no 1-0 attacks after sair] and also going 3+4th gate before temp tech after is rather new.
Its not a LOT what he changed but timingwise, trust me, you feel this difference big time.
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I officially dub thee, "Bisu build 2.0" he will 3-0 Jaedong next finals.
On topic, i agree with what is being pointed out that it was more than minor tweak in the build but was this tweaked to jaedong? or is the timing "safe" enough so to speak to be a viable build every game or deviation based on scouting info?
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I have been using this build in PvZ for a while now - I wasn't aware that it was new at all. A problem is that in many recent games, I see Zergs opting to go 5hatch into mutas or delayed lurkers or something, instead of just hydras. Personally, I used to go 5hatch delayed mutas into either hydras or lurkerling, and now I open 5hatch lurker. Sure, most Zergs probably go 5hatch hydra still, but I don't know if you should think of it as the norm.
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Calgary25980 Posts
On October 01 2009 05:03 iNfeRnaL wrote:
@ Chill usually the fast 2nd gateway buildorder is timed so that you get 1-0 much much later, your gas amount is insane cause you keep on making zealots.
Many of those builds lately were timed so 1-0 on lots would finish when the 3 archon push is happening and not any further.
They just completely ignored the 1-0 cause they concluded that mutas make the zealots useless anyway, so you would need to arrive before they spawn. [hence the 6-7 zealots speed only no 1-0 attacks after sair] and also going 3+4th gate before temp tech after is rather new.
Its not a LOT what he changed but timingwise, trust me, you feel this difference big time.
How is that possible? You make +1 first 100 gas, stargate at 150, citadel at 100. How could it possibly be any slower?
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On October 01 2009 05:36 Chill wrote:Show nested quote +On October 01 2009 05:03 iNfeRnaL wrote:
@ Chill usually the fast 2nd gateway buildorder is timed so that you get 1-0 much much later, your gas amount is insane cause you keep on making zealots.
Many of those builds lately were timed so 1-0 on lots would finish when the 3 archon push is happening and not any further.
They just completely ignored the 1-0 cause they concluded that mutas make the zealots useless anyway, so you would need to arrive before they spawn. [hence the 6-7 zealots speed only no 1-0 attacks after sair] and also going 3+4th gate before temp tech after is rather new.
Its not a LOT what he changed but timingwise, trust me, you feel this difference big time. How is that possible? You make +1 first 100 gas, stargate at 150, citadel at 100. How could it possibly be any slower?
Are you sure you aren't confusing the two builds? The one bisu used was what you just described, and the 2nd one completely puts off +1 until much later, which is what infernal was saying..
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Calgary25980 Posts
There are three builds here:
a) The one the OP proposed, which I'm not discussing here.
b) The one Bisu used, which is the one Infernal is advocating.
c) The one everyone else has used for the past 2 years.
I'm arguing that there is no difference between b) and c). Rereading Infernal's post he doesn't seem to think there is any difference either.
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This is like the standart of standarts on destination . Every game i play against protoss on desti is either +1 zeal rush with 7 or so zeals or a zeal/archon push . Its a variation of a speed zeal rush i doubt the counters are eny diffrent and thus the build isn't something that should be called "new" . Jaedong went for the faster lurkers after 5 hat . Geting spire and the lurker upgrade is pretty gas heavy . Jaedong could have saved minerals and gas for mutas in time if he wanted to i'm pretty sure of that or he could have build more hidras to defend , but he was making drones and waiting for his lurker update to finish . Normally thats a good counter to the zeal / archon push but with the faster zealots you need the lurker upgrade asap after lair is done otherwise you are open this kind of timing . You can't build a spire 2 more hatcherys den and then lurker update and be safe from this kind of attack with minimal defences .
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Actually, I just think Bisu made a +1 speedlot timing attack and Jaedong failed to defend effectively against it (possibly from lack of caring lol). +1 speedlot attack has always been a good counter to 3 hatch spire into 5 hatch hydra when executed correctly. The attack came in before Jaedong could finish researching lurkers. So overall, I don't see anything new here?
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I think, at least in my case, this build is not really used in many games because it requires you to have very good intel and game sense, and if improperly executed at any point leaves you in a pretty tough spot for the rest of the game.
It seems good for stronger players, but against equally strong zerg opponents it still feels like it's a risky build, and one that good zergs should not have too much of a problem defending adequately (unless you're Bisu).
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Calgary25980 Posts
Now that I understand the situation, I can't imagine sacrificing +1 for a quicker speed is a good idea. What purpose would it serve? It would allow Zerg to defend more easily with zerglings, which is the whole point of +1 - to kill zerglings.
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On October 01 2009 12:42 Chill wrote:
Now that I understand the situation, I can't imagine sacrificing +1 for a quicker speed is a good idea. What purpose would it serve? It would allow Zerg to defend more easily with zerglings, which is the whole point of +1 - to kill zerglings.
I imagine that is exactly the point. P walks out with a bunch of speed zeals, zerg will make just enough lings to defend with ling + drone + sunk, so your zeals are safe, but you wait a bit more for + 1 and some more zeals and then attack. All those zerglins will be a waste and you should be able to do dmg, but how many times will a zerg fall for that? It seems like a one time thing to me. That's the way I see it at least.
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it seemed like a standard game up until jaedong started throwing away units after he defended the first push. he had an overlord in bisu's main and over his natural, where he clearly had vision of the forge
infernals opinion about jaedong being "upset" in the post here, http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=102702¤tpage=3. is pretty bogus. if you use factual facial expressions from the vod you see over and over again, nothing serious about jaedong.
i feel like jaedong noticed the slightly changed build order but didnt really care. it seemed that he went into that game planning to lose, i recall the camera panning to him at 21:08 after he lost a big chunk of his army and he has this big ole banana grin. then again at 24:00 camera pans to him after losing his army again and he has a smirk. after he punched in gg you see jaedongs face, and that is not the jaedong losing face. then after he walks by his coach the coach and him both are smiling/smirking. Im not sure what its all about, maybe jaedong decided forcing a loss would make bisu think this slightly modified build is stronger? maybe he just flat out didn't care and wanted to go home? nobody knows, but its for certain that this was not a serious game.
that said, i dont think you should look to this game for evidence that bisu's new build is stronger, nor weaker.
taking the build out of context and looking at it on pen and paper it seems that not having +1 makes you more susceptible to zerglings and a zerg who is paying attention will notice the different timings/zealot numbers and be able to react accordingly, i feel like this build makes it easier for the zerg player to defend and then contain
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On October 01 2009 16:59 sashkata wrote:Show nested quote +On October 01 2009 12:42 Chill wrote:
Now that I understand the situation, I can't imagine sacrificing +1 for a quicker speed is a good idea. What purpose would it serve? It would allow Zerg to defend more easily with zerglings, which is the whole point of +1 - to kill zerglings. I imagine that is exactly the point. P walks out with a bunch of speed zeals, zerg will make just enough lings to defend with ling + drone + sunk, so your zeals are safe, but you wait a bit more for + 1 and some more zeals and then attack. All those zerglins will be a waste and you should be able to do dmg, but how many times will a zerg fall for that? It seems like a one time thing to me. That's the way I see it at least.
A progamer should roughly know when the forge started spinning and thus when the +1 will be done, but maybe Jaedong didn't spot it at the right time. Still, faking a speed only build with the forge right in the zerg's face is unlikely. It's only possible to misjudge the timing of the upgrade.
@Chill:
If you want to attack the zerg at a timing so early that +1 can not be finished in time, skipping it altogether and getting speed and more zealots is certainly more effective. Also, against strong sim city legs might be more effective than it seems. After all it makes it easier to get behind the wall, and +1 zealots don't help you so much if only 2-3 of them can attack.
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I find this build much better than +1 speedlots timing attack for two reasons:
1. You pressure with zealots earlier so you force the zerg to make units instead of drones.
2. You don't have to attack if you feel like there's enough defense. Your zealots are fast, so they can run away from lings and wait for +1, or hide in the base if the mutas appear.
Also there's not a big problem with late storm, as speedlots can defend quite well vs hydras in small numbers.
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iNfeRnaL
Germany1908 Posts
@ Chill recently a lot of progamers have been skipping the 1-0 in order to get sair AND leg speed tech ASAP - I think you missunderstood something.
Basically you would go for the 7-8 speedlot push WITHOUT 1-0 attack or defense.
You would rather time the 1-0 so it just gets ready for the 2nd push (which should either be 3 archon + lot while you make robo OR 1 archon + 3 templar + your sairs offensive [more than 2 if so])
A lot of top foreigners have "ignored" this trend but however, foreigners and trends is ... a joke.
So maybe not many foreigners have been doing that which is the reason why you didn't see a difference - but in the pro scene it was a common thing to do. (the 1-0 was considered too late to fit into the very very narrow timing window before spire finishes, thats why they skipped it)
Btw: It is _NOT_ 1-0 -> Stargate -> Zita -> Speed.
I already said that in my first post explaining the build - that's the key point - you get the fucking stargate before EVERYTHING else so your sair is still ASAP. THEN 1-0, then (late) cita and speed.
It's a small difference - but believe me its more than just significant at anything over B/B+ cause it just changes tho WHOLE timings once again.. [Yea, Korean's have adapted to the "non 1-0 builds" since ages - atleast those Koreans at B+/A-]
Edit: One more clarification - you all speak of 1-0 zealot pushes - very old school build - but that build usually was done without the support of corsairs and thus became a fucking risky allin (not to say suicide) against a Zerg with even decent mutalisk micro.
However the build Bisu used included sairs - and the sairs are the whole point, IF Bisu see's Jaedong going for muta he will make more cannons + adapt sair number so he can just finish him off with the 2nd push EASILY.
Jaedong could have had like 5-6 mutas at the point Bisu was attacking him judging from the avg gas income you would have at this point on Destination with 3h spire -> 5h.
9 or so if heavy 3 hatch muta.
Neither could have really damaged Bisu. He just saw everything. Had 2 sair + 1 can - easy to make 2 more can and sairs if you see mutas being spawned or a weird buildorder.
So basically it used to be EITHER 1-0 push with zealots and no sairs - OR a corsair build with obviously much slower 1-0. (because you just don't get 1-0 before stargate - your timing is so off the sair would be done until Zerg got his scourge out)
Bisu is doing both in one.
Get it?
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Calgary25980 Posts
Oh okay, so you switch +1 and stargate; sacrifice rush timing a little bit to be safe from Mutas, and have an earlier speed. Got it.
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How is the timing slower? The build revolves around a faster speedlot timing attack that aims to poke through the Zerg before they begin unit production, and if the Zerg has adapted accordingly, then the zealots retreat and come back at the second timing with archons and +1. The timing comes before the +1 speedlot timing, and so if the Zerg player was thinking expecting a +1 timing attack the build will successfully deal damage.
edit: nvm
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Updated op with example rep for +1 speedlot build. I still went for 2ndgate before 2nd gas, and cut some probes to get more zealots out. This gets rid of the large timing difference between these two builds, and it just comes down the the extra 100/100 needed for +1. This way legs are done ~7:10 and +1 ~7:25. 8zealot attack ~7min with +2 by 7:25. Its still a bit slower then with no +1 of course, but +1 is probably worth it.
Still, while this build is good I think much of the initiative falls on the zerg, and its up to them whether they scout well enough and respond well enough. For instance gosl vs hoejaa we see how good building placement helps a lot: http://www.teamliquid.net/tlpd/games/26627_GosI[Flying]_vs_HoeJJa/vod
Also now having time to read Nuveks thread, the build bisu does is pretty much the same as Violet vs Lzgamer, just better efficiency/timed.
http://www.repdepot.net/replay.php?id=18057
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iNfeRnaL
Germany1908 Posts
On October 02 2009 01:15 Chill wrote:
Oh okay, so you switch +1 and stargate; sacrifice rush timing a little bit to be safe from Mutas, and have an earlier speed. Got it.
Yea except for the fact that Koreans NEVER were getting +1 before Stargate, even after citadel lately.
But nvm, I guess the main issue is cleared. 
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What was the build Jangbi used against Calm in the SPL finals? Something like what you're talking about?
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On October 02 2009 02:34 Simplistik wrote:
What was the build Jangbi used against Calm in the SPL finals? Something like what you're talking about?
That was completely different. It was +1, citadel, speed, then 2 stargates.
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a great and very interesting thread. but there are so many different builds mentioned and written here that i dont quite get yet how exactly the build order for this new build looks like. the op is quite confusing tbh
could some1 plz give the exact build order, as far as possible ofc? that would be great^^
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iNfeRnaL
Germany1908 Posts
On October 01 2009 03:39 iNfeRnaL wrote:
First of all OP's buildorder was pretty close, however I think mine is a bit closer:
8 pyl
11 forge
14 can
15 can
15 nex
16 gate
16 pylon 2
17 gas
follow up with core, stargate 2nd gas, 1-0, 3rd pylon, citadel.
--- maintain zealot production, do NOT miss a fucking pylon ---
Important however is that you do NOT make the citadel too early.
If you're not Bisu it is better to have both 1-0 and legspeed ready at the same time - you don't want to attack before it anyway! (more on that later)
2nd gate is at like 46-50 supply.
Make only 2 corsairs if not massive muta rush.
Make a cannon right after your 2nd sair.
Get gate 3 + 4.
After 30 supply or so the timing gets really really tricky so that's the part you gotta figure out for yourself but that's basically it.
Edit: only can first if Zerg goes for pool first.
If hatchery first you get as much as you can done before the cannons, in the same order as above.
For example vs 12 hatch you get forge+gate+2nd pylon before the cannons easily.
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Regardless if this is a new build or the same old speed zealot with +1 attack, we should baptize it "Bisu Build"
Seriously, I think people who used to do this build before were either not getting the stargate and adding 4 gateway quicker + no second gas as early.
Bisu pretty much powered from 2 gates with sairs.
I think this build is very nice. It will provide a good protection vs 3 hatch mutas, and will also allow p to get aggressive early on forcing zerg to make lings and stuff.
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im a noob and dont play protoss, but when i do the only build i use is +1 speedlot rushes lol. the upgrades finish and 9~ zealots arrive at the zergs base about the time mutas/lurker tech finish, and the initial 9 zealots can kill a spire/hydra den/spawning pool and get drone kills before dying, and zealot reinforcements can kill off more hatcheries
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Regardless if this is a new build or the same old speed zealot with +1 attack, we should baptize it "Bisu Build"
Seriously, I think people who used to do this build before were either not getting the stargate and adding 4 gateway quicker + no second gas as early.
Bisu pretty much powered from 2 gates with sairs.
I think this build is very nice. It will provide a good protection vs 3 hatch mutas, and will also allow p to get aggressive early on forcing zerg to make lings and stuff.
Yeah. Ive been getting the feeling that everytime i watch a match, Toss just dosent put oout enough early aggression and lets the Z get away with their expand and BO with perfect timing. This new build, like you said or even if it is one, allows the Toss to defend against Muta and attack in the window before lurks arrive. Its nice to force the Z to adjust their timings and force them to a low drone count rather then play passively like many of the tosses do nowadays and let the Z feel very safe with their macro which is not something you want them to do.
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If the timing is what it is said to be, 2 sunkens at both bases and starting hydras at 36 drones should easily be able to defend this?
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On October 01 2009 01:55 StorrZerg wrote:
So now protoss is reverting back to early +1 speed lot builds?
i'm pretty sure this is not anything new.
btw why do you have 14cc...... your terran now not toss?
imo faster carpace and a few more sunks/lings would counter this opening fairly easy or even fast mutas. regardless its one of those things, if zerg can scout it then zerg is going to be able to deal with it (hopefully)
Since he is talking about Protoss, it should be obvious he's saying 14cc = 14 cannon, cannon and he put iin () after the 14cc......
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My only complaint about this build is the late tech grades. If initial attack is defended properly by 1more sunken and/or another set of lings at his nat, you've just started tech grade to storm/archon. This would be a good map control strategy vs zerg from taking a 3rd gas/min. I just don't think it's an end all be all kind of strategy.
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On October 02 2009 08:05 Engineer wrote:
My only complaint about this build is the late tech grades. If initial attack is defended properly by 1more sunken and/or another set of lings at his nat, you've just started tech grade to storm/archon. This would be a good map control strategy vs zerg from taking a 3rd gas/min. I just don't think it's an end all be all kind of strategy.
Z would have to use larva on lings/drones on sunks earlier to defend this better therefore you hurt their economy even if they see this. im not sure how it would turn out as opposed a blocked regular +1 speed zeal attack.
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I'll be damned. I was thinking about the build Bisu did while I was away in camp and I even did a mini writeup about it on paper. Maybe I'm just talking out of my ass(correct me if I'm wrong please) but I put in quite a number of hours of thought into this.
Before I get into the later +1 attack zealot timing, I want to talk about what I think the corsairs did in the game.
In standard play, P usually gets 1 sair now due to the scourges that are a huge threat to the sairs. Thus, most Ps skip making more sairs and just use one for scouting. Bisu got more sairs this game, indicating that sair threat is growing. This will force JD to make more scourge to deal with the increasing corsair number.
Scourge are gas-intensive. Because Z is on one gas for most part of the early game that's used for tech and ups, he can't afford to expend too much gas while he's on one gas. With less gas, he's now forced to make hydras instead of mutas because he won't have enough gas for making enough mutas of critical mass. Hence, muta switch is delayed significantly.
This then allows P to get an archon later instead of having 2 with the zealots to push. This is the key because now instead of making templars, P can make a larger zealot count faster, making the push that much faster and stronger.
Even when Z does switch to muta, cannons would have been made in the bases and archons would already have been done. Note that Bisu gets the archon in his second cycle of unit production.
This all leads to why the zealot attack timing is now much faster. The attack is done right before the switch to hydra pumping can be done; the timing when his hydra army is small. Because the army is now small, he can delay +1 slightly to make his push faster.
Note how Bisu deals with the muta switch as his archons are made in his second and third cycle of units.
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This pressure/release/pressure tactic is pretty good.
Bisu rush, goes back and makes jaedong waste money on zerglings, and lots of terran would push out with naked marines, make zerg waste money on sunk/lings only not to attack, but attack later with medic to break while zerg is trying to mend his economical damage.
poor zerg :/
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On October 01 2009 01:55 StorrZerg wrote:
So now protoss is reverting back to early +1 speed lot builds?
i'm pretty sure this is not anything new.
btw why do you have 14cc...... your terran now not toss?
imo faster carpace and a few more sunks/lings would counter this opening fairly easy or even fast mutas. regardless its one of those things, if zerg can scout it then zerg is going to be able to deal with it (hopefully)
Exactly, 3 hatch muta timing is ~7:15 if I'm right, if Z recognizes this stuff and decides not to put 2 more hatches and to go for mutas, its gg. :}
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On October 03 2009 06:13 ProoM wrote:Show nested quote +On October 01 2009 01:55 StorrZerg wrote:
So now protoss is reverting back to early +1 speed lot builds?
i'm pretty sure this is not anything new.
btw why do you have 14cc...... your terran now not toss?
imo faster carpace and a few more sunks/lings would counter this opening fairly easy or even fast mutas. regardless its one of those things, if zerg can scout it then zerg is going to be able to deal with it (hopefully) Exactly, 3 hatch muta timing is ~7:15 if I'm right, if Z recognizes this stuff and decides not to put 2 more hatches and to go for mutas, its gg. :}
Bisu didnt stop making sairs...shouldnt roughly 3 sairs be out? (i dont know my timings so someone correct me)
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Bisu could scout that the Z was making Mutas using his sairs so he could easily set up cannons, make archons or more sairs.
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On October 03 2009 06:19 xMiragex wrote:Show nested quote +On October 03 2009 06:13 ProoM wrote:On October 01 2009 01:55 StorrZerg wrote:
So now protoss is reverting back to early +1 speed lot builds?
i'm pretty sure this is not anything new.
btw why do you have 14cc...... your terran now not toss?
imo faster carpace and a few more sunks/lings would counter this opening fairly easy or even fast mutas. regardless its one of those things, if zerg can scout it then zerg is going to be able to deal with it (hopefully) Exactly, 3 hatch muta timing is ~7:15 if I'm right, if Z recognizes this stuff and decides not to put 2 more hatches and to go for mutas, its gg. :} Bisu didnt stop making sairs...shouldnt roughly 3 sairs be out? (i dont know my timings so someone correct me)
Vs three hatch muta you'd have probably 2 sairs out. I know the first sair has enough time after scouting 3 hatch muta to go and kill a single overlord (typically) before running off back to the base. That or my timings are just off as a Zerg  .
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I think Violet finally got the +1 timing optimized enough for use, he used this build vs Hyvaa last night, Hyvaa made 4(!) sunkens and tons of lings that got killed. I'll add a link to the game when it gets posted.
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BackHo used it in one of his MST games and failed. Nonetheless, with refinement it could be a soft counter to 5 hatch hydra.
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On October 01 2009 01:55 StorrZerg wrote:
So now protoss is reverting back to early +1 speed lot builds?
i'm pretty sure this is not anything new.
btw why do you have 14cc...... your terran now not toss?
imo faster carpace and a few more sunks/lings would counter this opening fairly easy or even fast mutas. regardless its one of those things, if zerg can scout it then zerg is going to be able to deal with it (hopefully)
Pretty much going back to +1 yeah, since Z figured out how to capitalize on the P's later attacks. But i see it going back and forth between normal play and just doing +1 timing attacks.
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Old build with some minor tweaks. It does not counter 5 hatch due to all the switching back and forth between hydra and muta of todays zergs. Plus most zergs are pretty used to early zealot pressure at this point and are therefor very able in building safe sim cities that will insta rape any number of zealots.
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On October 12 2009 07:36 hifriend wrote:
Old build with some minor tweaks. It does not counter 5 hatch due to all the switching back and forth between hydra and muta of todays zergs. Plus most zergs are pretty used to early zealot pressure at this point and are therefor very able in building safe sim cities that will insta rape any number of zealots.
like jaedong...
i honestly think its a good idea as long as the P doesnt compromise himself in any way for it to be backfired. even if the Z defends it, he wastes larva sooner on fighting units than drones. at what expense of the P? virtually none or none at all.
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On October 12 2009 07:36 hifriend wrote:
Old build with some minor tweaks. It does not counter 5 hatch due to all the switching back and forth between hydra and muta of todays zergs. Plus most zergs are pretty used to early zealot pressure at this point and are therefor very able in building safe sim cities that will insta rape any number of zealots.
You did a fine job on reading this thread didn't you.
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10387 Posts
On October 11 2009 07:10 jalstar wrote:
BackHo used it in one of his MST games and failed. Nonetheless, with refinement it could be a soft counter to 5 hatch hydra.
Backho used 3 gate speedlot->double stargate. Completely different build
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EPT
