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sixghost
United States2096 Posts
On October 01 2009 05:36 Chill wrote: How is that possible? You make +1 first 100 gas, stargate at 150, citadel at 100. How could it possibly be any slower? Are you sure you aren't confusing the two builds? The one bisu used was what you just described, and the 2nd one completely puts off +1 until much later, which is what infernal was saying.. | ||
Chill
Calgary26003 Posts
a) The one the OP proposed, which I'm not discussing here. b) The one Bisu used, which is the one Infernal is advocating. c) The one everyone else has used for the past 2 years. I'm arguing that there is no difference between b) and c). Rereading Infernal's post he doesn't seem to think there is any difference either. | ||
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raga4ka
Bulgaria5679 Posts
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meegrean
Thailand7699 Posts
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Jawa~
United States291 Posts
It seems good for stronger players, but against equally strong zerg opponents it still feels like it's a risky build, and one that good zergs should not have too much of a problem defending adequately (unless you're Bisu). | ||
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Chill
Calgary26003 Posts
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Metaspace
Austria670 Posts
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sashkata
Bulgaria3241 Posts
On October 01 2009 12:42 Chill wrote: Now that I understand the situation, I can't imagine sacrificing +1 for a quicker speed is a good idea. What purpose would it serve? It would allow Zerg to defend more easily with zerglings, which is the whole point of +1 - to kill zerglings. I imagine that is exactly the point. P walks out with a bunch of speed zeals, zerg will make just enough lings to defend with ling + drone + sunk, so your zeals are safe, but you wait a bit more for + 1 and some more zeals and then attack. All those zerglins will be a waste and you should be able to do dmg, but how many times will a zerg fall for that? It seems like a one time thing to me. That's the way I see it at least. | ||
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CheeC[h]
United States137 Posts
infernals opinion about jaedong being "upset" in the post here, http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=102702¤tpage=3. is pretty bogus. if you use factual facial expressions from the vod you see over and over again, nothing serious about jaedong. i feel like jaedong noticed the slightly changed build order but didnt really care. it seemed that he went into that game planning to lose, i recall the camera panning to him at 21:08 after he lost a big chunk of his army and he has this big ole banana grin. then again at 24:00 camera pans to him after losing his army again and he has a smirk. after he punched in gg you see jaedongs face, and that is not the jaedong losing face. then after he walks by his coach the coach and him both are smiling/smirking. Im not sure what its all about, maybe jaedong decided forcing a loss would make bisu think this slightly modified build is stronger? maybe he just flat out didn't care and wanted to go home? nobody knows, but its for certain that this was not a serious game. that said, i dont think you should look to this game for evidence that bisu's new build is stronger, nor weaker. taking the build out of context and looking at it on pen and paper it seems that not having +1 makes you more susceptible to zerglings and a zerg who is paying attention will notice the different timings/zealot numbers and be able to react accordingly, i feel like this build makes it easier for the zerg player to defend and then contain | ||
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spinesheath
Germany8679 Posts
On October 01 2009 16:59 sashkata wrote: I imagine that is exactly the point. P walks out with a bunch of speed zeals, zerg will make just enough lings to defend with ling + drone + sunk, so your zeals are safe, but you wait a bit more for + 1 and some more zeals and then attack. All those zerglins will be a waste and you should be able to do dmg, but how many times will a zerg fall for that? It seems like a one time thing to me. That's the way I see it at least. A progamer should roughly know when the forge started spinning and thus when the +1 will be done, but maybe Jaedong didn't spot it at the right time. Still, faking a speed only build with the forge right in the zerg's face is unlikely. It's only possible to misjudge the timing of the upgrade. @Chill: If you want to attack the zerg at a timing so early that +1 can not be finished in time, skipping it altogether and getting speed and more zealots is certainly more effective. Also, against strong sim city legs might be more effective than it seems. After all it makes it easier to get behind the wall, and +1 zealots don't help you so much if only 2-3 of them can attack. | ||
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arbiter_md
Moldova1219 Posts
1. You pressure with zealots earlier so you force the zerg to make units instead of drones. 2. You don't have to attack if you feel like there's enough defense. Your zealots are fast, so they can run away from lings and wait for +1, or hide in the base if the mutas appear. Also there's not a big problem with late storm, as speedlots can defend quite well vs hydras in small numbers. | ||
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iNfeRnaL
Germany1908 Posts
Basically you would go for the 7-8 speedlot push WITHOUT 1-0 attack or defense. You would rather time the 1-0 so it just gets ready for the 2nd push (which should either be 3 archon + lot while you make robo OR 1 archon + 3 templar + your sairs offensive [more than 2 if so]) A lot of top foreigners have "ignored" this trend but however, foreigners and trends is ... a joke. So maybe not many foreigners have been doing that which is the reason why you didn't see a difference - but in the pro scene it was a common thing to do. (the 1-0 was considered too late to fit into the very very narrow timing window before spire finishes, thats why they skipped it) Btw: It is _NOT_ 1-0 -> Stargate -> Zita -> Speed. I already said that in my first post explaining the build - that's the key point - you get the fucking stargate before EVERYTHING else so your sair is still ASAP. THEN 1-0, then (late) cita and speed. It's a small difference - but believe me its more than just significant at anything over B/B+ cause it just changes tho WHOLE timings once again.. [Yea, Korean's have adapted to the "non 1-0 builds" since ages - atleast those Koreans at B+/A-] Edit: One more clarification - you all speak of 1-0 zealot pushes - very old school build - but that build usually was done without the support of corsairs and thus became a fucking risky allin (not to say suicide) against a Zerg with even decent mutalisk micro. However the build Bisu used included sairs - and the sairs are the whole point, IF Bisu see's Jaedong going for muta he will make more cannons + adapt sair number so he can just finish him off with the 2nd push EASILY. Jaedong could have had like 5-6 mutas at the point Bisu was attacking him judging from the avg gas income you would have at this point on Destination with 3h spire -> 5h. 9 or so if heavy 3 hatch muta. Neither could have really damaged Bisu. He just saw everything. Had 2 sair + 1 can - easy to make 2 more can and sairs if you see mutas being spawned or a weird buildorder. So basically it used to be EITHER 1-0 push with zealots and no sairs - OR a corsair build with obviously much slower 1-0. (because you just don't get 1-0 before stargate - your timing is so off the sair would be done until Zerg got his scourge out) Bisu is doing both in one. Get it? | ||
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Chill
Calgary26003 Posts
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koreasilver
9109 Posts
edit: nvm | ||
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Knickknack
United States1187 Posts
Still, while this build is good I think much of the initiative falls on the zerg, and its up to them whether they scout well enough and respond well enough. For instance gosl vs hoejaa we see how good building placement helps a lot: http://www.teamliquid.net/tlpd/games/26627_GosI[Flying]_vs_HoeJJa/vod Also now having time to read Nuveks thread, the build bisu does is pretty much the same as Violet vs Lzgamer, just better efficiency/timed. http://www.repdepot.net/replay.php?id=18057 | ||
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iNfeRnaL
Germany1908 Posts
On October 02 2009 01:15 Chill wrote: Oh okay, so you switch +1 and stargate; sacrifice rush timing a little bit to be safe from Mutas, and have an earlier speed. Got it. Yea except for the fact that Koreans NEVER were getting +1 before Stargate, even after citadel lately. But nvm, I guess the main issue is cleared.  | ||
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Simplistik
2146 Posts
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De4ngus
United States6533 Posts
On October 02 2009 02:34 Simplistik wrote: What was the build Jangbi used against Calm in the SPL finals? Something like what you're talking about? That was completely different. It was +1, citadel, speed, then 2 stargates. | ||
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Black Gun
Germany4482 Posts
could some1 plz give the exact build order, as far as possible ofc? that would be great^^ | ||
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iNfeRnaL
Germany1908 Posts
On October 01 2009 03:39 iNfeRnaL wrote: First of all OP's buildorder was pretty close, however I think mine is a bit closer: 8 pyl 11 forge 14 can 15 can 15 nex 16 gate 16 pylon 2 17 gas follow up with core, stargate 2nd gas, 1-0, 3rd pylon, citadel. --- maintain zealot production, do NOT miss a fucking pylon --- Important however is that you do NOT make the citadel too early. If you're not Bisu it is better to have both 1-0 and legspeed ready at the same time - you don't want to attack before it anyway! (more on that later) 2nd gate is at like 46-50 supply. Make only 2 corsairs if not massive muta rush. Make a cannon right after your 2nd sair. Get gate 3 + 4. After 30 supply or so the timing gets really really tricky so that's the part you gotta figure out for yourself but that's basically it. Edit: only can first if Zerg goes for pool first. If hatchery first you get as much as you can done before the cannons, in the same order as above. For example vs 12 hatch you get forge+gate+2nd pylon before the cannons easily. | ||
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