EPT
+ Show Spoiler [ Fast speed no +1 build] +
This is gonna be a pretty rough guide because I'm just knocking it out in a few spare minutes, mainly because people seem to think 5 hat hydra is so unbeatable 1 base reaver is a good idea. I didn't know things were that desperate but apparently they are so yeah. This won't have the quality of some of the more well polished guides but hopefully I'll explain the build well enough for you to copy it and work it out for yourself. It's the build I'm currently using PvZ at B level with considerable success.
Step 1, scout.
Make sure he's doing 3 hat spire 5 hat. There's no way of knowing how he plans to transition with scout probes because they're usually dead by then but I don't want you using this vs the wrong stuff then blaming me. Anyway, PvZ is basically scout -> hard counter -> control game flow -> win so you could all use more scouting anyway.
Things to learn to look for
Drone count (low drones = play safe)
Larva being saved until probe is gone (tells you when he takes his 3rd if the larva are idle for ages then start to be spent one at a time) (tells you he wants to make a lot of something the moment you're gone if 3 start at once).
Speedlings (even if you're contained and blind it's easy to send a probe out and get his lings to chase it a bit. that'll tell you if he got speed (if he opened 12 hat 11 pool towards lair and got speed he's gonna ling timing attack usually))
Gas timing (if he goes 9 pool speed and doesn't get lair, hydra incoming) (if he gets 100 gas then stops and doesn't resume gas he's heading for massling)
Lair start timing (tells you lair finish timing, useful to know)
Second gas timing (3 hat muta!)
Have your first probe holding minerals, have a second probe hotkeyed. If first probe gets into trouble and you're not watching, select it by hotkey and hit c. That sends it drilling home. If it dies, send the second probe drilling to minerals in his base while you have vision. Having it hotkeyed helps you do this in time.
So yeah, ideally you haven't lost the game and you know what's up. If it's 3 hat spire 5 hat then continue as below. If it's something else then consult some other guide.
Step 2, learn a real wallin.
With a decent simcity and good scouting you can make less cannons and still be safe. If you just place shit randomly on the fly you'll have to be extra safe and that fucks rush timings. It's such a basic thing to get right, just look at a vod and then get it right. Simple.
Step 3, gas, gateway and core asap.
Asap does not mean lose to masslings. See step 1. What it means is getting a core the moment the gateway finishes, even if it means delaying a probe or two. We're going for a timing attack, you wanna hit the timing. Equally, get 3 probes on gas the moment it finishes. Gas is a v precious commodity in this build, basic inattention will fuck you .Core at the back of your nat (out of ovi vision) will help.
Step 4, build order.
Keep your first gateway making zealots when you have the money. The moment your core finishes place a stargate and a citadel at the same time. The reason you have gas to do this is because you're not getting +1. Citadel hidden next to your core will help. Add 2 gateways when you can.
You will have the gas to constantly pump corsairs and get zealot speed the moment citadel finishes. Not spending that 100 gas on +1 is a real boon.
Keep pylon macro going, pump zealots and corsairs.
Scout with one corsair.
Send zealots out before speed finishes, avoiding showing your true count if possible (send a few to clear lings with the rest behind).
Hit the moment speed finishes with gateways rallied at his base while taking 2nd gas and getting archives.
What happens?
You've just hit a timing window about 30 seconds before the attack he's expecting. You've been pumping zealots while he's been droning, although he has more unit production than you you have a bigger army. You hit before he gets a critical mass of hydralisks and then your zealots can dominate his hatcheries, stopping a big group from forming and outnumbering them as they trickle in. The +1 speedlot attack fails because the timing window is so narrow and the simcity is so good that you can't break it. Surprise and 30 seconds makes all the difference.
He'll usually hold it off but the damage will be extreme. Kill drones, kill overlords, kill a hat if you can. At the same time you're getting archives, 2nd gas, 3 more gates and cannons. The cannons are important because he is outproducing you and you're gonna make a switch into ht which won't have enough energy to save you. Cannons cover you short term while you make the transition into a normal PvZ army.
Variations.
If he opens mutalisks your 4 corsairs with the zealots will give him something to think about. At the same time you're still grabbing your 2nd gas as usual but also cannoning up your mineral line. He can't press the air offence because your zealots are all in his base.
Vs 4 hat lair openings. Your first corsair scouted this. Pressure but don't engage. Get 2nd gas and ht asap.
Vs mutalisk and scourge micro JD style (this is v rare when you've only shown 1 corsair but whatever). Cannon the fuck up. Get 2nd gas and 2nd stargate. Throw zealots away if necessary to buy time for cannons but try not to waste them.
Vs hydralisk cheeses. Try and hold him off with a few zealots moving forwards and back to shield cannons until speed while going to 5 or 6 gateways. Don't reveal your zealot count. Your speed is gonna hit before he expects it. When its done show him you what happens when you mess with Auir.
Countered by.
Good simcity and mass zerglings with drone micro. This is the clever bit. The simcity hydra bit rapes +1 speedlots but is raped by +0 speedlots. A clever zerg (not seen one yet) with nice speedling micro can overwhelm your zealot timing attack. But because +1 speedlots and zealot archon attacks were so standard the lings have fallen out of fashion.
If he does this just back off and play as normal. Chokes are your friends vs lings and with 12+ zealots you can turn most terrain into a choke of some sort. 5 corsairs are a critical mass against scourge so go wild with your corsairs, he's not got the hydra to stop you.
Don't decide "well I started so I'll finish" and suicide your zealots in anyway. A bunch of zealots is never obsolete in PvZ, just hang onto them, they give you map control and are handy to have.
Why it works.
Your zealot attack is big and it's fast. But everything has a price.
You're saving money in two key areas. Gas (and therefore tech). You're on 1 gas which saves probe mining time and expenses on +1, archives etc. You're also not making any cannons to counter mutalisks (and v few to counter the threat of hydra breaks). 1 gas is enough to build constant corsairs and you're only showing 1 of them. 4 corsairs and a lot of zealot threat against an unexpecting zerg is a decent defence against mutalisks so you just don't need the standard 2-3 cannons. That's 3 extra zealots right there.
Extra.
Repeating this for idiots and people with bad multitasking. You don't just keep making zealots as you're attacking, even if it's nice and easy and they're doing so well. You've cut a LOT of tech to pull off this attack, first priority is to switch your energy completely into fixing that. If your zealots win the game, great. If they just kill a lot of drones then suddenly you're going to have a lot of angry hydralisks on your doorstep. You need quick transitions because there isn't time to get it wrong.
2nd gas as you push out. Archives as you push out. If he's not mutalisking, stop corsairs, 4-5 is enough. If you're managing his hydralisk count then make 8 or so gateways. If you're throwing your army away to kill his lair or something then make 8 or so cannons. Just don't get a big advantage and then lose because your ht only have 65 energy when he counterattacks.
Replay.
Played this earlier, not a great game but the guy is a solid B- and it shows the build pretty well. You'll see a lot more of it if I post my TSL reps.
http://repdepot.net/replay.php?id=25501
Better replay vs a B/B+ zerg player. Exact build from the above order. Played 90 seconds ago.
http://repdepot.net/replay.php?id=25507
+ Show Spoiler [speed zealot rush from PGR translated…] +
On March 30 2009 11:44 SuperJongMan wrote:
The Concept
Mass Sairs, Mass Lots. Flexible attack for fast 3 gas. Have some sairs around for fun.
The Build
1) Double Nexus - Core
Same as any regular double nex, cept you don't get the natural gas.
2) Stargate - Citadel - +2gate (3) - Sair - Speed Up - 1 Cannon in main.
*Off 1 gas: Star - Adun - Sair - Sair - Speed Up is possible, but very very tight.
Because of the second sair, the leg up can be a little late but it should work out.
*1st Sair scouts.
*The Cannon in main is for surprise mutas. Since you are massing sairs you should be
fine (unless his name is Park Sung Jun)
3) Mass Zealots + 7 sairs + Nat Gas + Archive @ 200 gas.
*Zealots take off as soon as they get new legs.
*Mass probes and when money allows build an assimilator.
*Archive.
The Management -
1) Purpose is to snipe a 3 hatch to scourge zerg build.
* The speedy lots hit at about 7:10. A minute faster than the 4 gate 2 archon.
The zerg at this time can have about a sunken at every base and some hydra/ling.
While it is just speedy zealots, they will still pose a threat.
* Moving the speed lots around, the sairs steal OL kills.
If Sair/Reaver - the hydra's will move to stop reavers, if Sair/DT, only the DT has to be stopped. When Speed+Sairs, the unit composition of the zerg is off, OLs die, and zealots will still trim down ling/hydra.
* Still, it is better to play passive than aggresive. Increase to 5 gate + add templar.
2) Mutalisks! Mutalisks!
* Laugh. Too easy. Too easy.
* When scouting with the first sair, If a spire and natural gas is up, put 3 cannons @ main.
(You don't wanna get scourged all at once and type GG)
* Legs finish about when mutas come in. If the zerg did main gas only, even with
scourges, the sairs (about 4 now) and cannons shrug this off.
* Since they invested in Mutas, Hydras and lings won't be present.
When the zealots run into the main, the nail is in the coffin, just hammer it in.
3) No Spire Zerg
* Sometimes, Zergs are assholes and just go straight Den. Could be hydras or lurkers.
Regardless, the answer's the same. Get less sairs (3-4) but continue harassing OLs.
It's hard to stop both sairs and speed lots together with just hydras.
* While this goes on, get a fast Archive and prioritize your 3rd Nexus.
* Even if a lot of lurkers come, it will be 3-4. Because of sairs, mass lings can't be made
(OL def), make sure to proceed nice and carefully and lurker/ling will be hard pressed to
crack you.
4) Just a zerg... (Scourge+Hydra)
* Get 7 sairs. Group Sairs (Trap a probe with a pylong) and slowly pick off skoji. While playing out the sair/lot.
* Get Archives, and Storm, no archons.
* Even with mass hydras, zealots can hold. When the zealots are about to give way, Storm should arrive.
* Now get 3 base and late game.
That's all for now, simple right?
Sairs+Zealots are easy units to control. You don't need Bisu hands but rather follow your own pace and just take care of your units. Sairs if still kept alive and healthy in count can serve a plethora of uses in other parts of the game. So yeah, that's why passive play in this case is better...
That's all for today.
More to come, like a part two and stuff.
Maybe tomorrow? Maybe later this week.
From : http://www.pgr21.com/zboard4/zboard.php?id=daku&page=2&sn1=&divpage=1&sn=off&ss=on&sc=on&select_arrange=headnum&desc=asc&no=1688
Surprise Zergies!
The Concept
Mass Sairs, Mass Lots. Flexible attack for fast 3 gas. Have some sairs around for fun.
The Build
1) Double Nexus - Core
Same as any regular double nex, cept you don't get the natural gas.
2) Stargate - Citadel - +2gate (3) - Sair - Speed Up - 1 Cannon in main.
*Off 1 gas: Star - Adun - Sair - Sair - Speed Up is possible, but very very tight.
Because of the second sair, the leg up can be a little late but it should work out.
*1st Sair scouts.
*The Cannon in main is for surprise mutas. Since you are massing sairs you should be
fine (unless his name is Park Sung Jun)
3) Mass Zealots + 7 sairs + Nat Gas + Archive @ 200 gas.
*Zealots take off as soon as they get new legs.
*Mass probes and when money allows build an assimilator.
*Archive.
The Management -
1) Purpose is to snipe a 3 hatch to scourge zerg build.
* The speedy lots hit at about 7:10. A minute faster than the 4 gate 2 archon.
The zerg at this time can have about a sunken at every base and some hydra/ling.
While it is just speedy zealots, they will still pose a threat.
* Moving the speed lots around, the sairs steal OL kills.
If Sair/Reaver - the hydra's will move to stop reavers, if Sair/DT, only the DT has to be stopped. When Speed+Sairs, the unit composition of the zerg is off, OLs die, and zealots will still trim down ling/hydra.
* Still, it is better to play passive than aggresive. Increase to 5 gate + add templar.
2) Mutalisks! Mutalisks!
* Laugh. Too easy. Too easy.
* When scouting with the first sair, If a spire and natural gas is up, put 3 cannons @ main.
(You don't wanna get scourged all at once and type GG)
* Legs finish about when mutas come in. If the zerg did main gas only, even with
scourges, the sairs (about 4 now) and cannons shrug this off.
* Since they invested in Mutas, Hydras and lings won't be present.
When the zealots run into the main, the nail is in the coffin, just hammer it in.
3) No Spire Zerg
* Sometimes, Zergs are assholes and just go straight Den. Could be hydras or lurkers.
Regardless, the answer's the same. Get less sairs (3-4) but continue harassing OLs.
It's hard to stop both sairs and speed lots together with just hydras.
* While this goes on, get a fast Archive and prioritize your 3rd Nexus.
* Even if a lot of lurkers come, it will be 3-4. Because of sairs, mass lings can't be made
(OL def), make sure to proceed nice and carefully and lurker/ling will be hard pressed to
crack you.
4) Just a zerg... (Scourge+Hydra)
* Get 7 sairs. Group Sairs (Trap a probe with a pylong) and slowly pick off skoji. While playing out the sair/lot.
* Get Archives, and Storm, no archons.
* Even with mass hydras, zealots can hold. When the zealots are about to give way, Storm should arrive.
* Now get 3 base and late game.
That's all for now, simple right?
Sairs+Zealots are easy units to control. You don't need Bisu hands but rather follow your own pace and just take care of your units. Sairs if still kept alive and healthy in count can serve a plethora of uses in other parts of the game. So yeah, that's why passive play in this case is better...
That's all for today.
More to come, like a part two and stuff.
Maybe tomorrow? Maybe later this week.
From : http://www.pgr21.com/zboard4/zboard.php?id=daku&page=2&sn1=&divpage=1&sn=off&ss=on&sc=on&select_arrange=headnum&desc=asc&no=1688
Surprise Zergies!
+ Show Spoiler [Stronger Late game, Weaker Timing Atta…] +
On December 04 2009 04:56 SuperJongMan wrote:
There's also slightly gas heavier version so like on destination or so, lurkers behind cliff won't hurt on nearly the same level as being late on gas.
+ Show Spoiler +
It's a tad old but it's not like PvZ has evolved much lately.
There's also slightly gas heavier version so like on destination or so, lurkers behind cliff won't hurt on nearly the same level as being late on gas.
+ Show Spoiler +
Version 2.
Stronger Late game, Weaker Timing Attack. You still get corsairs!
1) Double Nexus.
Standard ya?
2) After Core - Stargate - Citadel - Nat Gas - +2 Gates - Sair - Speed - Air Up - Zeal/Sair
The main difference this and the previous version is the nat gas. [ -_-;; ]. The gas will complete at
about the time the stargate completes. As you finally manage to save up some gas, get the
templar archive.
* No big difference if you get sair+1 or not. When the sair comes out, 1-2 photon in main.
* Make zealots and probes through the whole process
3) Templar Archives (3-4 sair timing) - attack - prepare expansion - psi storm
The reason it's 3-4 sair timing is because that is when your gas will finally start really flowing.
Put the archive down as soon as you don't feel starved on gas.
* The purpose of the build isn't really to attack but rather be able to defend with a flexible force while also presenting a threat to the zerg.
* Before getting the second expansion, prevent the zerg from getting the 4th base, and if you see
space, try to go for some drones or such.
Bastard Zerg -
1) The Standard: 3 hatch - lair - spire - 5 hatch hydras.
You're first corsair tells all. Bring him home after the spire's done. The scourges man!
* Send the zealots out with speed. The zerg can hold with sunken ling hydra.
* NEVER lose these units needlessly. Only when the zerg gets a fast 3rd expo we fully engage.
If you think you can get some lings or drones while not taking damage, go for it. We can't lose
zealots by the magu. It's 5 hatch vs 3 gate. Of course we get pushed if we lose these guys.
As your zealots commando their way around, set up your 2nd expo. Photo+Zealots can hold a lot. After holding, 8 gateway POWAaaa. Ofc you gather up your hanbang and go from there. The whole purpose of the build here is the lategame 3 base hanbang.
2) Slow Mutas: 3 Hatch - Lair - Spire 4 Hatch w/ Nat Gas - Muta & Scourge
This is what zealot sair kills best. When muta/scourge come, 3-4 sairs make defence easy.
* The focus here is the speedy lots. When the zergs mutas come, These guys are sent to run
amuck the zerg base.
Because the mutas are out, zerg has no.. blah blah, part 1. In the chaos of the drones are running around, zealots acting like headless chicken, and mutas killing zealots - take your sairs (6+) and calmly dispatch the skoji (use the zealots to help find where in the base they are). If this is done, mutas are ez.
Anyways, the zerg's still at 4hatch+ at this stage so don't mass too many speed zealots but get your 2nd expo ready sooner. In this case, the zerg and toss are at the same base count, toss has taken no damage, zerg has sairs and drone damage to worry about and the game practically plays itself.
3) Hydra Lurker: 3 Hatch Lair - Den - 5 Hatch
* Cut corsairs, about 3.
* Cancel Legs, get archive. Get Dts. As you try to harass with this mini sair/dt, gather storms.
* Don't expand and get robotics and gateways instead. We have to gather up a 2 base hanbang =(.
There isn't a real easy way to necksnap the Hydra Lurker through management. Just use your dragoons and high templar well. And by well, I mean like, really really well. Like, at least 10 times better than you usually play. It won't be easy but it's not impossible. Storms are gonna be key here. Center fight well, but it'll feel pretty gay, like old 3 hatch hydra waves, and feeling short on storms... 1.07... ~_~ NO NO!
4) 2 Hatch Muta - 2 Hatch Hydra
You messed up man. Scout better. If your corsair is what sees this, it's too late.
* Like all zerg all ins, hold and win.
Vs Muta - Cannon whichever stargate your nexus is at. Actually, go ahead and cannon everywhere. EVERYWHERE. Gather sairs, if you hold, you win -_-;; if you fail, you ... failed.
Vs Hydra - Use probes and hold, and if you hold with probes, this build cleans up rather well. The 3 gate Zealots help holding a lot and as time goes, legs will also finish. In this scenario, a hydra vs speed up zeal fight actually favorites the zealots due to the count and zergs production. If you can get to this scenario without crippling damage, GJ on your win.
Stork vs Yellow - Batoo Regames.
Stork vs July - Batoo Regames.
The games have the same builds but Stork vs July, July's immense pressure makes Stork fumble his build. Also Jangbi used this somewhere vs Firefist or so in winner's league on RH but he lost to a chogoling all in so... .. so......
YOINK!
http://www.pgr21.com/zboard4/zboard.php?id=daku&page=1&sn1=&divpage=1&sn=off&ss=on&sc=on&select_arrange=headnum&desc=asc&no=1701
Stronger Late game, Weaker Timing Attack. You still get corsairs!
1) Double Nexus.
Standard ya?
2) After Core - Stargate - Citadel - Nat Gas - +2 Gates - Sair - Speed - Air Up - Zeal/Sair
The main difference this and the previous version is the nat gas. [ -_-;; ]. The gas will complete at
about the time the stargate completes. As you finally manage to save up some gas, get the
templar archive.
* No big difference if you get sair+1 or not. When the sair comes out, 1-2 photon in main.
* Make zealots and probes through the whole process
3) Templar Archives (3-4 sair timing) - attack - prepare expansion - psi storm
The reason it's 3-4 sair timing is because that is when your gas will finally start really flowing.
Put the archive down as soon as you don't feel starved on gas.
* The purpose of the build isn't really to attack but rather be able to defend with a flexible force while also presenting a threat to the zerg.
* Before getting the second expansion, prevent the zerg from getting the 4th base, and if you see
space, try to go for some drones or such.
Bastard Zerg -
1) The Standard: 3 hatch - lair - spire - 5 hatch hydras.
You're first corsair tells all. Bring him home after the spire's done. The scourges man!
* Send the zealots out with speed. The zerg can hold with sunken ling hydra.
* NEVER lose these units needlessly. Only when the zerg gets a fast 3rd expo we fully engage.
If you think you can get some lings or drones while not taking damage, go for it. We can't lose
zealots by the magu. It's 5 hatch vs 3 gate. Of course we get pushed if we lose these guys.
As your zealots commando their way around, set up your 2nd expo. Photo+Zealots can hold a lot. After holding, 8 gateway POWAaaa. Ofc you gather up your hanbang and go from there. The whole purpose of the build here is the lategame 3 base hanbang.
2) Slow Mutas: 3 Hatch - Lair - Spire 4 Hatch w/ Nat Gas - Muta & Scourge
This is what zealot sair kills best. When muta/scourge come, 3-4 sairs make defence easy.
* The focus here is the speedy lots. When the zergs mutas come, These guys are sent to run
amuck the zerg base.
Because the mutas are out, zerg has no.. blah blah, part 1. In the chaos of the drones are running around, zealots acting like headless chicken, and mutas killing zealots - take your sairs (6+) and calmly dispatch the skoji (use the zealots to help find where in the base they are). If this is done, mutas are ez.
Anyways, the zerg's still at 4hatch+ at this stage so don't mass too many speed zealots but get your 2nd expo ready sooner. In this case, the zerg and toss are at the same base count, toss has taken no damage, zerg has sairs and drone damage to worry about and the game practically plays itself.
3) Hydra Lurker: 3 Hatch Lair - Den - 5 Hatch
* Cut corsairs, about 3.
* Cancel Legs, get archive. Get Dts. As you try to harass with this mini sair/dt, gather storms.
* Don't expand and get robotics and gateways instead. We have to gather up a 2 base hanbang =(.
There isn't a real easy way to necksnap the Hydra Lurker through management. Just use your dragoons and high templar well. And by well, I mean like, really really well. Like, at least 10 times better than you usually play. It won't be easy but it's not impossible. Storms are gonna be key here. Center fight well, but it'll feel pretty gay, like old 3 hatch hydra waves, and feeling short on storms... 1.07... ~_~ NO NO!
4) 2 Hatch Muta - 2 Hatch Hydra
You messed up man. Scout better. If your corsair is what sees this, it's too late.
* Like all zerg all ins, hold and win.
Vs Muta - Cannon whichever stargate your nexus is at. Actually, go ahead and cannon everywhere. EVERYWHERE. Gather sairs, if you hold, you win -_-;; if you fail, you ... failed.
Vs Hydra - Use probes and hold, and if you hold with probes, this build cleans up rather well. The 3 gate Zealots help holding a lot and as time goes, legs will also finish. In this scenario, a hydra vs speed up zeal fight actually favorites the zealots due to the count and zergs production. If you can get to this scenario without crippling damage, GJ on your win.
Stork vs Yellow - Batoo Regames.
Stork vs July - Batoo Regames.
The games have the same builds but Stork vs July, July's immense pressure makes Stork fumble his build. Also Jangbi used this somewhere vs Firefist or so in winner's league on RH but he lost to a chogoling all in so... .. so......
YOINK!
http://www.pgr21.com/zboard4/zboard.php?id=daku&page=1&sn1=&divpage=1&sn=off&ss=on&sc=on&select_arrange=headnum&desc=asc&no=1701
It's a tad old but it's not like PvZ has evolved much lately.
+ Show Spoiler [4 gate zealot archon attack] +
On December 23 2008 12:43 SuperJongMan wrote:
For Aiur!
The 4 gate 2 archon build is also commonly referred to as the +1 spd zealot archon build, but that's lame and very vague. This is not the Bisu build. This is not some nonsense theory-crafted build. It is the new foundation and manual for PvZ ever since the coming of the revolution.
It is the Holy Bible of PvZ!
Build is described in parts 1 2 and 3
Late game management tips and transitions in case the zerg didn't die yet in part 4.
Part 5 is simply a variation to consider.
The New Foundation of PvZ
[PvZ] - 4 Gate 2 Archon - AKA The Protoss vs Zerg Bible.
From http://pgr21.com/zboard4/zboard.php?id=daku&no=1668
The Build - The Bible
* Simply, after double Nex, Get an archive and 4 gates. After 2 archons - produce speed+1 zealots and pressure/attack the zerg.
* 7.5 Pylon, 11 Forge, 13 Cannon (x2), 15 pylon. 18 Nexus+Gate => Main Gas, Core, front gas, Stargate, Citadel, Templar+3 gate. +1, 4 HT, Speed up, Make speed zealots... at around 8:30, attack.
* The 4 gate 2 archon build is used to fight Zerg Neo-Sauron builds.
(9 pool, 6 ling, front hatch, 3rd base hatch, gas, lair, lingspeed, spire/scourge, +2 hatch - Den+Chamber. )
- Once again, I re-iterate, this build is to fight Neo-Sauron Zergs.
- If the zerg shows switch up, there must be adjustments made, and the following will be an explanation on how to do so.
1 - The Double Nexus -
*The Build Order - 7.5 Pylon, 11 Forge, 13 Cannon (x2), 15 pylon. 18 Nexus + Gate
*Key Points
- When pool is half done, the forge must be coming up.
- Even if the forge and pool finish at the same time, ling make+travel time = finished cannons.
- Minor variations dependant on map.
- If you are given a little freedom due to the pool being late, you can build a nexus and if still given further freedom by opposition, build a gate!
- If the zerg aggresively 3 hatch 0 pools, do a Nexus -no forge 2 gate. While harassing with zealots, producing probes and teching are both possible. However, the zerg, due to making zerglings+sunkens will not be able to do anything else.
- It is because of this 9 pool is the standard. To stop the 9 pool, the basic double nex build is as described above and admittedly slower.
* The Defence -
- 2-4 zerglings = 1 photon. More lings - 2 photon. If speed up or around 12 lings, 3 photon.
- In most ling heavy scenarios, 3 is plenty.
- More importantly is the sim city + Probe/Zealot path blocking to not even let the lings onto the cannons in the first place.
- Specifically, Gate on top, Forge on bottom = No ling run by. This is an important feature a toss should utilize. ( http://www.pgr21.com/zboard4/zboard.php?id=daku&page=1&sn1=&divpage=1&sn=off&ss=on&sc=on&select_arrange=headnum&desc=asc&no=1649
The bottom picture is possible protoss walls )
- If the zerg does speed up or 8+ lings, block/narrow the entrance with probes.
- Trying to conserve 2-4 more probes will end the game. The zerg is obviously poor so there is no need to feel like you must have 2-4 extra probes working for your econ.
- As money allows, replace the probes with 1-2 zealots from the gates.
*The Scouting -
- Is it 12 hatch or 9 pool, pool timing is the most important thing here.
- then, are lings making or drones? Then 'What is the hatch count and gas timing.
- Most zergs put up the hatches they want (3/4) before they make the gas.
- By this assumption, we can usually get a feel for if the zerg has taken his 2nd natural or not.
- Depending on gas timing, Hydra, Muta, Lurker can be guessed.
- If you were breached by the all in, watch the replay with an emphasis on the zergs gas timing/usage.
- Checking for Chogoling speed up is obv important.
- If the gas has been up for awhile but there is no lair in sight, high probability of a chogoling break.
- If the scouting probe is caught and the zerg is containing outside movement from the toss's nat and even if scouting seems hard, you can't be still.
- It is good to fake probe movements in and out of the base to check for chogospeed.
- If no speed up, fake probe movement (Usually towards their choke ol) and then FAKE JUKE TIKI BARBER that shit to the other side.
- After the zergs natural expo, if the 3rd hatch is towards the main, be very cautious.
2 - The Core Timing -
* Build order - (After Gate) - Gas, Core, Nat Gas, Stargate, Citadel.
- Before the core is complete, the nat gas must be put up to prevent gas shortage.
- A goon is always a nice choice to prevent more ol scouting.
- Because the timing between citadel and robo branches are so similar, it is often a good idea to construct them around the nat by habit. Also, robos are better constructed there anyways in case of defence.
- If the Zerg's tech is late (4 Hatch Gas), corsairs are not even needed. [No Stargate at all]
* The Defence -
- If unsure of the zergs exact intentions, another photon up front for 3 isn't a bad choice.
- Pure Hydra Break - Cancel all probes and cannon like no tomorrow. Magu Magu Photon Photon.
- If hydras are trying to fast break the gate, bring a probe up to the gate and getting ready to re-construct the gate to buy extra time is a good option.
- If the Zorg went fast 2 hatch gas and the tech is SUPA FAST~ at about SG completion time, put 1-2 photon at the main.
* The Scouting -
- The Sair is better off looking at zerg intentions rather than overlord hunting.
- Just because scourge are out, don't keep the sair in your main. Avoid the scourges and looking at the zerg is very beneficial
- Post 3-hatch, if the 4 and 5 hatchery do not pop up, mutalisks all-in are much more likely.
- If hatcheries 4 and 5 are up, the zerg has less than 200 minerals. He can't make mutas!
- It is important to discover the natural gas status also. If the gas is already up, a gas heavy muta or lurker attack will be coming.
*OMG! It's not a spire!
- If it's not spire, it's ling hydra lurker.
- Since the sair neutralizing scourges are not there, Sair-reaver is a good choice. If the Citadel is already up, Sair-DT is a good choice.
- It is still possible to ignore it all and go 4gate 2 archon.
3 -Two Archons and +1 Spd Zealots -
*Build Order - (After Citadel) - +1 attack, Templar Archives, 3 gateways, 2 archons, Speed up, 4 gateway zealot pump.
- The above build is the standard but depending on the zorgs status, what comes first does differ.
- Afterwards, produce sufficient zeal/chon from gates and put down a pylong at the 2nd natural to PREPAREeeee FORrrrrrr EXPANSION~~~.
*Fast Mutal Defence.
- Even if you scout that it's not muta, 2 cannons in your main is standard. (It is encouraged that you have a bountiful and abundant 3 flower harvest)
- As aforementioned, if the nat gas is made but the 4/5th hatcheries are missing, it is wise to assume mutalisks.
- Even with an archon, without cannons/sair fast power mutals will shake you up. 3-4 Cannons at main, 2-3 sairs plz. Plz plz.
- Most Zorgs that go mutal defend with many sunkenlisks. If the sunken count looks low, poking him with your 2 archon superlot and sairs is recommended. (While expanding).
- If this isn't the case, prepare your 2nd expo! The mutals will aggravatingly rape your macro polo probe, and this is another reason many sairs are needed. Also, if you feel your probe micro sux and the mutas will rape it, going ahead and setting a probe there before hand to preserve your original intended expo timing isn't bad.
* Fast Lurkers
- Similar to mutals, if the nat gas is fast and the hydra den is fast, faster lurkers will be looking to contain you.
- Instead of Archons or Speed Up, adding only 2-3 gates + robotics + Goon range + Templar&Obs is recommended.
- Make 1-2 DTs and hide them somewhere. Later, when he is harassing your expos, your harass him back ninja style.
- When breaking the lurker contain, take a shuttle full of 4 zealots and harass the back and then attempting to break the lurker is much easier street.
- If your 1-2 DT's made it out, harass with these dt's now.
- When breaking the contain, having 1 archon is really nice. It serves as a good lead. Because the hydras and lings come towards the archon, the rear templars can get easy storms.
* Scourge, Hydra, Then Lurker/Neo-Sauron Zerg
- Making scourges to pressure the corsair while making hydras, then follwing up with lurkers is the standard.
- Until the Zealots and Archons are destroyed, the Protoss will have the center.
- At this moment, you have to make your 2nd natural, but speed up ling movement to halt this will be seen.
- In this case, instead of moving all your zealots out, send a few to confront the zerglings and to hold the territory.
- Keep pumping zealots while reseraching Storm. Prepare HT while raising a robo and get observers.
- As you pump templar, your gas will deplete and minerals will be left over. This is when you increase gateways.
4. - The Second Half Charge -
* Overcoming The Lair Timing
- Massing Dragoons and Templar while destroying the zerg's lair units and pushing the nat is the ultimate goal of this strat.
- It is recommended to be on a wider and more open map where dragoons can fight to their full potential, like Tau Cross.
- If the zerg survives and gets to hive, adrenal+swarm makes goons useless and the game will become increasingly difficult
*Split Map Fights ("Macro Wars")
- The main way to win late game ( +Hive) is to follow the zerg step in step for expo's while constructing a hanbang.
- Zealots - Archons - Templar will be the base units and later the reaver must be incorporated.
- Putting a robo (or two) at your expos will help fight defiler and zergling terrorism!!!!
- If you control the center and carelessly expand, cracklings will shake you up and ruin your pretty Nexus in an instant.
- In preparation for doom drops on the main, many photons (You will have money left, 5, 7, 10, flower fields!) are recommended. While Dark Swarm nullifies these, they buy precious time. And you must quickly defend with speed up shuttle/reavers.
- Be careful and please take good care of your corsairs. If you can gather it up, mass corsairs is very powerful, but because of the high gas cost, your army can become lacking.
- Until you are sure of victory, do not go into a zerg's defensive line. Especially don't smash into a sunken line. Concentrate on gathering an archon and reaver count, stop or slow down zerg expo attempts, and be sure to keep your econ safe of any threats.
- Got money left over? Photon Photon Photon Gate Gate Gate.
5 - Variations -
The Hungry Build
Hungry Build - 7.5 Pylon, 10 forge, 13 Photonx2 - 15 Nexus+Gate, 16 Pylon, 17 Gas - Core.
Regular Build -7.5 Pylon, 10 forge, 13 Photonx2 - 15 Pylon - 18 Nexus/Gate - 19 Gas - Core.
Corsair Timing -
Hungry 4:20
Regular 4:55
Minerals mined by 5 minutes
Hungry - 1862 (31 Probes+312)
Regular - 2118 (32 Probes+518)
- Tech is 35 seconds faster, but about 250 minerals poorer.
- Due to the faster Nexus, there is not a big difference in probe count.
So really, it comes down to - Do you want to add more gateways or have a faster sair.
- So if the Zerg goes 9 pool speed up, a faster tech hungry build seems beneficial.
2nd Nat Pointers
- To preserve expansion timing, it is key to not lose the first force doing no damage to the zerg.
- That is also known as suicide.
- If the 2nd nat is tricky to grab, like Destination, it is advised to add two more gates for 6 total before expanding.
- If the 2nd nat is close, like Coloseum, follow the guide.
Nexus 2-Gate vs 3-Hatch 0-Pool
- Ahh, so.. the no forge 2 gate expo... ~_~
- On a 4 player map, as the probe builds the forge, send him out to scout also.
- If the Zerg has 12 hatched, there will be time to cancel the forge and Nexus.
- If the Zerg went 3 hatch no-pool from here, it is easy to raise the 2nd gate.
- Like before, the forge has to go up when pool is half done.
- Pressure and tech. While your econ is superior and you can do this, zerg's larva cap prevents such growth.
And... I think that's it.
I hope you guys show the true meaning of 1a2a3a to those pesky whiny zergs.
PWAHAHAHHAAH FORBIDDEN KNOWLEDGE!!!
No Zergs are gonna learn to wall against me and not have repercussions!
For Aiur!
The 4 gate 2 archon build is also commonly referred to as the +1 spd zealot archon build, but that's lame and very vague. This is not the Bisu build. This is not some nonsense theory-crafted build. It is the new foundation and manual for PvZ ever since the coming of the revolution.
It is the Holy Bible of PvZ!
Build is described in parts 1 2 and 3
Late game management tips and transitions in case the zerg didn't die yet in part 4.
Part 5 is simply a variation to consider.
The New Foundation of PvZ
[PvZ] - 4 Gate 2 Archon - AKA The Protoss vs Zerg Bible.
From http://pgr21.com/zboard4/zboard.php?id=daku&no=1668
The Build - The Bible
* Simply, after double Nex, Get an archive and 4 gates. After 2 archons - produce speed+1 zealots and pressure/attack the zerg.
* 7.5 Pylon, 11 Forge, 13 Cannon (x2), 15 pylon. 18 Nexus+Gate => Main Gas, Core, front gas, Stargate, Citadel, Templar+3 gate. +1, 4 HT, Speed up, Make speed zealots... at around 8:30, attack.
* The 4 gate 2 archon build is used to fight Zerg Neo-Sauron builds.
(9 pool, 6 ling, front hatch, 3rd base hatch, gas, lair, lingspeed, spire/scourge, +2 hatch - Den+Chamber. )
- Once again, I re-iterate, this build is to fight Neo-Sauron Zergs.
- If the zerg shows switch up, there must be adjustments made, and the following will be an explanation on how to do so.
1 - The Double Nexus -
*The Build Order - 7.5 Pylon, 11 Forge, 13 Cannon (x2), 15 pylon. 18 Nexus + Gate
*Key Points
- When pool is half done, the forge must be coming up.
- Even if the forge and pool finish at the same time, ling make+travel time = finished cannons.
- Minor variations dependant on map.
- If you are given a little freedom due to the pool being late, you can build a nexus and if still given further freedom by opposition, build a gate!
- If the zerg aggresively 3 hatch 0 pools, do a Nexus -no forge 2 gate. While harassing with zealots, producing probes and teching are both possible. However, the zerg, due to making zerglings+sunkens will not be able to do anything else.
- It is because of this 9 pool is the standard. To stop the 9 pool, the basic double nex build is as described above and admittedly slower.
* The Defence -
- 2-4 zerglings = 1 photon. More lings - 2 photon. If speed up or around 12 lings, 3 photon.
- In most ling heavy scenarios, 3 is plenty.
- More importantly is the sim city + Probe/Zealot path blocking to not even let the lings onto the cannons in the first place.
- Specifically, Gate on top, Forge on bottom = No ling run by. This is an important feature a toss should utilize. ( http://www.pgr21.com/zboard4/zboard.php?id=daku&page=1&sn1=&divpage=1&sn=off&ss=on&sc=on&select_arrange=headnum&desc=asc&no=1649
The bottom picture is possible protoss walls )
- If the zerg does speed up or 8+ lings, block/narrow the entrance with probes.
- Trying to conserve 2-4 more probes will end the game. The zerg is obviously poor so there is no need to feel like you must have 2-4 extra probes working for your econ.
- As money allows, replace the probes with 1-2 zealots from the gates.
*The Scouting -
- Is it 12 hatch or 9 pool, pool timing is the most important thing here.
- then, are lings making or drones? Then 'What is the hatch count and gas timing.
- Most zergs put up the hatches they want (3/4) before they make the gas.
- By this assumption, we can usually get a feel for if the zerg has taken his 2nd natural or not.
- Depending on gas timing, Hydra, Muta, Lurker can be guessed.
- If you were breached by the all in, watch the replay with an emphasis on the zergs gas timing/usage.
- Checking for Chogoling speed up is obv important.
- If the gas has been up for awhile but there is no lair in sight, high probability of a chogoling break.
- If the scouting probe is caught and the zerg is containing outside movement from the toss's nat and even if scouting seems hard, you can't be still.
- It is good to fake probe movements in and out of the base to check for chogospeed.
- If no speed up, fake probe movement (Usually towards their choke ol) and then FAKE JUKE TIKI BARBER that shit to the other side.
- After the zergs natural expo, if the 3rd hatch is towards the main, be very cautious.
2 - The Core Timing -
* Build order - (After Gate) - Gas, Core, Nat Gas, Stargate, Citadel.
- Before the core is complete, the nat gas must be put up to prevent gas shortage.
- A goon is always a nice choice to prevent more ol scouting.
- Because the timing between citadel and robo branches are so similar, it is often a good idea to construct them around the nat by habit. Also, robos are better constructed there anyways in case of defence.
- If the Zerg's tech is late (4 Hatch Gas), corsairs are not even needed. [No Stargate at all]
* The Defence -
- If unsure of the zergs exact intentions, another photon up front for 3 isn't a bad choice.
- Pure Hydra Break - Cancel all probes and cannon like no tomorrow. Magu Magu Photon Photon.
- If hydras are trying to fast break the gate, bring a probe up to the gate and getting ready to re-construct the gate to buy extra time is a good option.
- If the Zorg went fast 2 hatch gas and the tech is SUPA FAST~ at about SG completion time, put 1-2 photon at the main.
* The Scouting -
- The Sair is better off looking at zerg intentions rather than overlord hunting.
- Just because scourge are out, don't keep the sair in your main. Avoid the scourges and looking at the zerg is very beneficial
- Post 3-hatch, if the 4 and 5 hatchery do not pop up, mutalisks all-in are much more likely.
- If hatcheries 4 and 5 are up, the zerg has less than 200 minerals. He can't make mutas!
- It is important to discover the natural gas status also. If the gas is already up, a gas heavy muta or lurker attack will be coming.
*OMG! It's not a spire!
- If it's not spire, it's ling hydra lurker.
- Since the sair neutralizing scourges are not there, Sair-reaver is a good choice. If the Citadel is already up, Sair-DT is a good choice.
- It is still possible to ignore it all and go 4gate 2 archon.
3 -Two Archons and +1 Spd Zealots -
*Build Order - (After Citadel) - +1 attack, Templar Archives, 3 gateways, 2 archons, Speed up, 4 gateway zealot pump.
- The above build is the standard but depending on the zorgs status, what comes first does differ.
- Afterwards, produce sufficient zeal/chon from gates and put down a pylong at the 2nd natural to PREPAREeeee FORrrrrrr EXPANSION~~~.
*Fast Mutal Defence.
- Even if you scout that it's not muta, 2 cannons in your main is standard. (It is encouraged that you have a bountiful and abundant 3 flower harvest)
- As aforementioned, if the nat gas is made but the 4/5th hatcheries are missing, it is wise to assume mutalisks.
- Even with an archon, without cannons/sair fast power mutals will shake you up. 3-4 Cannons at main, 2-3 sairs plz. Plz plz.
- Most Zorgs that go mutal defend with many sunkenlisks. If the sunken count looks low, poking him with your 2 archon superlot and sairs is recommended. (While expanding).
- If this isn't the case, prepare your 2nd expo! The mutals will aggravatingly rape your macro polo probe, and this is another reason many sairs are needed. Also, if you feel your probe micro sux and the mutas will rape it, going ahead and setting a probe there before hand to preserve your original intended expo timing isn't bad.
* Fast Lurkers
- Similar to mutals, if the nat gas is fast and the hydra den is fast, faster lurkers will be looking to contain you.
- Instead of Archons or Speed Up, adding only 2-3 gates + robotics + Goon range + Templar&Obs is recommended.
- Make 1-2 DTs and hide them somewhere. Later, when he is harassing your expos, your harass him back ninja style.
- When breaking the lurker contain, take a shuttle full of 4 zealots and harass the back and then attempting to break the lurker is much easier street.
- If your 1-2 DT's made it out, harass with these dt's now.
- When breaking the contain, having 1 archon is really nice. It serves as a good lead. Because the hydras and lings come towards the archon, the rear templars can get easy storms.
* Scourge, Hydra, Then Lurker/Neo-Sauron Zerg
- Making scourges to pressure the corsair while making hydras, then follwing up with lurkers is the standard.
- Until the Zealots and Archons are destroyed, the Protoss will have the center.
- At this moment, you have to make your 2nd natural, but speed up ling movement to halt this will be seen.
- In this case, instead of moving all your zealots out, send a few to confront the zerglings and to hold the territory.
- Keep pumping zealots while reseraching Storm. Prepare HT while raising a robo and get observers.
- As you pump templar, your gas will deplete and minerals will be left over. This is when you increase gateways.
4. - The Second Half Charge -
* Overcoming The Lair Timing
- Massing Dragoons and Templar while destroying the zerg's lair units and pushing the nat is the ultimate goal of this strat.
- It is recommended to be on a wider and more open map where dragoons can fight to their full potential, like Tau Cross.
- If the zerg survives and gets to hive, adrenal+swarm makes goons useless and the game will become increasingly difficult
*Split Map Fights ("Macro Wars")
- The main way to win late game ( +Hive) is to follow the zerg step in step for expo's while constructing a hanbang.
- Zealots - Archons - Templar will be the base units and later the reaver must be incorporated.
- Putting a robo (or two) at your expos will help fight defiler and zergling terrorism!!!!
- If you control the center and carelessly expand, cracklings will shake you up and ruin your pretty Nexus in an instant.
- In preparation for doom drops on the main, many photons (You will have money left, 5, 7, 10, flower fields!) are recommended. While Dark Swarm nullifies these, they buy precious time. And you must quickly defend with speed up shuttle/reavers.
- Be careful and please take good care of your corsairs. If you can gather it up, mass corsairs is very powerful, but because of the high gas cost, your army can become lacking.
- Until you are sure of victory, do not go into a zerg's defensive line. Especially don't smash into a sunken line. Concentrate on gathering an archon and reaver count, stop or slow down zerg expo attempts, and be sure to keep your econ safe of any threats.
- Got money left over? Photon Photon Photon Gate Gate Gate.
5 - Variations -
The Hungry Build
Hungry Build - 7.5 Pylon, 10 forge, 13 Photonx2 - 15 Nexus+Gate, 16 Pylon, 17 Gas - Core.
Regular Build -7.5 Pylon, 10 forge, 13 Photonx2 - 15 Pylon - 18 Nexus/Gate - 19 Gas - Core.
Corsair Timing -
Hungry 4:20
Regular 4:55
Minerals mined by 5 minutes
Hungry - 1862 (31 Probes+312)
Regular - 2118 (32 Probes+518)
- Tech is 35 seconds faster, but about 250 minerals poorer.
- Due to the faster Nexus, there is not a big difference in probe count.
So really, it comes down to - Do you want to add more gateways or have a faster sair.
- So if the Zerg goes 9 pool speed up, a faster tech hungry build seems beneficial.
2nd Nat Pointers
- To preserve expansion timing, it is key to not lose the first force doing no damage to the zerg.
- That is also known as suicide.
- If the 2nd nat is tricky to grab, like Destination, it is advised to add two more gates for 6 total before expanding.
- If the 2nd nat is close, like Coloseum, follow the guide.
Nexus 2-Gate vs 3-Hatch 0-Pool
- Ahh, so.. the no forge 2 gate expo... ~_~
- On a 4 player map, as the probe builds the forge, send him out to scout also.
- If the Zerg has 12 hatched, there will be time to cancel the forge and Nexus.
- If the Zerg went 3 hatch no-pool from here, it is easy to raise the 2nd gate.
- Like before, the forge has to go up when pool is half done.
- Pressure and tech. While your econ is superior and you can do this, zerg's larva cap prevents such growth.
And... I think that's it.
I hope you guys show the true meaning of 1a2a3a to those pesky whiny zergs.
PWAHAHAHHAAH FORBIDDEN KNOWLEDGE!!!
No Zergs are gonna learn to wall against me and not have repercussions!
This isn't a variation on FE zealot rush PvZ openings but it is useful advice which is relevant to the above builds.
On December 04 2009 06:38 Knickknack wrote:
Well, I have things written for pvz, but 1) they are not done, and 2) they are more detailed and meant for a guide. It would not really mesh into what you have here or liquidpedia as you can see bellow. Still, I don't really mind if you add stuff like detailed opening information to help people:
+ Show Spoiler +
Opening:
Preliminary question: How do I learn the correct building placement for FE?
+ Show Spoiler +
1. Read the wall-in thread for building placement rules, and for pictures:
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=62652
2. Check TLPD for pvz games on the maps you want to play:
http://www.teamliquid.net/tlpd/
3. You can play in single player. Using cheats you can make buildings quickly and mind control zerglings to figure out which building placements are best.
Preliminary question: Why scout on 8pylon when going FE?
+ Show Spoiler +
You can scout after making forge or even later. This gives you more minerals which helps vs 9pool, overpool, and 12pool. But, this can cause problems vs 5pool and this also means you won't get to go nexus first vs 12 hatch builds. So scouting is always a bit of a gamble, but that is why you should scout on 8 pylon unless you are sure they will 9pool/overpool/12pool.
Preliminary question: How many cannons do I need?
+ Show Spoiler +
You will know how many cannons you need by scouting the zerg's build and how many lings pop out of their larvae. If they make no lings you don't even need 1cannon, but you don't know if what is hatching in their first 3larve is 6drones or 6lings, and on many maps (destination for instance) ling travel time is slightly shorter than cannon build time. That is why you typically want to build at least 1 cannon. If they build more than 6lings you most likely want 2canons. 2 cannons is the standard safe bet, and then build more if you see them making lots of lings. Now, there are builds zergs do where they get 12+lings with speed to try and run past your cannons into your main. In this case you will see them collecting gas for speed, and in this case you will sometimes want to build your 3rd cannon before making a gateway. Use your best judgment, and play safe if you are not sure. Also, at times you may want to pull probes from main/nat to either block lings and/or help attack vs lings. How many cannons you build can also depend on map layout and how good your simcity is. For the bellow builds I assume 2cannons as a typical reaction to the standard 8 ling opening.
Build (A) vs 9pool, overpool, 12pool:
8pylon-scout, 11forge, 14cc (2cannons), 16nexus, 16gateway, 16p (in main), 17assim, then zealot or core
*vs 12pool, depending on travel distance you can get away with 8p-scout then nexus/forge before cannons. While that has a faster nexus, it also tends to have less consistent probe production. So, the eco difference is not too great, and 12pool is not done often, so knowing this variation is hardly a necessity.
Build (B) vs 12 hatch 11pool
8pylon-scout, 13nexus-gather min at nat and take back, 15Gate, 15forge, 17p (in main), 17assim, 17cc, then zealot or core
(C) How to react vs 5pool.
If you opened 10forge you may be able to get away with cannons at natural.
Most likely you went 11forge however, so when you see early pool build a pylon next to your nexus asap ~12psi. Then 1-2cannons asap. Then you can either go 2gateway or gateway-gas. Vs later pools, such as 7pool you may be able to get away with cannons at nat if you went 11forge asap. Use your best judgment, and play safe if you are not sure.
(D) How to react when you have not scouted them early.
Sometimes on 3-4player maps you may not scout your opponent fast enough to decide between forge or nexus first. In these cases you typically want to play safe and go forge first. And then if you see that they went 12hatch you can make nexus before cannons.
(E) Vs the rare 3hatch 0pool, go nexus first, and then add two gateways at nat. Constant zealot pressure while teching.
These are optimized BOs vs the certain ling timings that zerg builds have.
Travel distance can influence these timings, but these timings are good for most normal maps (destination, heartbreak, etc). Often at low level play, your opponent will not be doing an optimized build and then you can get away with a better build than you really should be able to do. For example, in his replay pack of iccup games [pan]kabal (b+/a- p player) often did 8p, 11forge-scout, 14forge/nexus, and got away with it vs overpools. But one time an opponent recognized this and 5pooled him next game and quickly won. When Kabal played a couple of games vs Mondragon, one game he lost quickly and another he had to deal with lings in his base. The point is I don't suggest learning bad habits vs weaker players.
Well, I have things written for pvz, but 1) they are not done, and 2) they are more detailed and meant for a guide. It would not really mesh into what you have here or liquidpedia as you can see bellow. Still, I don't really mind if you add stuff like detailed opening information to help people:
+ Show Spoiler +
Opening:
Preliminary question: How do I learn the correct building placement for FE?
+ Show Spoiler +
1. Read the wall-in thread for building placement rules, and for pictures:
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=62652
2. Check TLPD for pvz games on the maps you want to play:
http://www.teamliquid.net/tlpd/
3. You can play in single player. Using cheats you can make buildings quickly and mind control zerglings to figure out which building placements are best.
Preliminary question: Why scout on 8pylon when going FE?
+ Show Spoiler +
You can scout after making forge or even later. This gives you more minerals which helps vs 9pool, overpool, and 12pool. But, this can cause problems vs 5pool and this also means you won't get to go nexus first vs 12 hatch builds. So scouting is always a bit of a gamble, but that is why you should scout on 8 pylon unless you are sure they will 9pool/overpool/12pool.
Preliminary question: How many cannons do I need?
+ Show Spoiler +
You will know how many cannons you need by scouting the zerg's build and how many lings pop out of their larvae. If they make no lings you don't even need 1cannon, but you don't know if what is hatching in their first 3larve is 6drones or 6lings, and on many maps (destination for instance) ling travel time is slightly shorter than cannon build time. That is why you typically want to build at least 1 cannon. If they build more than 6lings you most likely want 2canons. 2 cannons is the standard safe bet, and then build more if you see them making lots of lings. Now, there are builds zergs do where they get 12+lings with speed to try and run past your cannons into your main. In this case you will see them collecting gas for speed, and in this case you will sometimes want to build your 3rd cannon before making a gateway. Use your best judgment, and play safe if you are not sure. Also, at times you may want to pull probes from main/nat to either block lings and/or help attack vs lings. How many cannons you build can also depend on map layout and how good your simcity is. For the bellow builds I assume 2cannons as a typical reaction to the standard 8 ling opening.
Build (A) vs 9pool, overpool, 12pool:
8pylon-scout, 11forge, 14cc (2cannons), 16nexus, 16gateway, 16p (in main), 17assim, then zealot or core
*vs 12pool, depending on travel distance you can get away with 8p-scout then nexus/forge before cannons. While that has a faster nexus, it also tends to have less consistent probe production. So, the eco difference is not too great, and 12pool is not done often, so knowing this variation is hardly a necessity.
Build (B) vs 12 hatch 11pool
8pylon-scout, 13nexus-gather min at nat and take back, 15Gate, 15forge, 17p (in main), 17assim, 17cc, then zealot or core
(C) How to react vs 5pool.
If you opened 10forge you may be able to get away with cannons at natural.
Most likely you went 11forge however, so when you see early pool build a pylon next to your nexus asap ~12psi. Then 1-2cannons asap. Then you can either go 2gateway or gateway-gas. Vs later pools, such as 7pool you may be able to get away with cannons at nat if you went 11forge asap. Use your best judgment, and play safe if you are not sure.
(D) How to react when you have not scouted them early.
Sometimes on 3-4player maps you may not scout your opponent fast enough to decide between forge or nexus first. In these cases you typically want to play safe and go forge first. And then if you see that they went 12hatch you can make nexus before cannons.
(E) Vs the rare 3hatch 0pool, go nexus first, and then add two gateways at nat. Constant zealot pressure while teching.
These are optimized BOs vs the certain ling timings that zerg builds have.
Travel distance can influence these timings, but these timings are good for most normal maps (destination, heartbreak, etc). Often at low level play, your opponent will not be doing an optimized build and then you can get away with a better build than you really should be able to do. For example, in his replay pack of iccup games [pan]kabal (b+/a- p player) often did 8p, 11forge-scout, 14forge/nexus, and got away with it vs overpools. But one time an opponent recognized this and 5pooled him next game and quickly won. When Kabal played a couple of games vs Mondragon, one game he lost quickly and another he had to deal with lings in his base. The point is I don't suggest learning bad habits vs weaker players.
Regardless of the hype I wrote, I don't really think that forge FE doesn't have an answer to 5 hatch hydra - it's a pretty fair fight - but it's always nice to be able to do more than one opening, yeah?![[image loading]](http://www.repdepot.net/img/thumbs/25508.jpg)
![[image loading]](http://repdepot.net/img/thumbs/26931.jpg)
