EPT[G] PvZ FE -> Speedlots - Page 4
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koreasilver
9109 Posts
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HiOT
Sweden1000 Posts
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PangO
Chile1870 Posts
Wouldn't that work ? instead of looking for a real counter. | ||
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BlissX1
United States328 Posts
On December 02 2009 05:16 KwarK wrote: Speed completed at 07:02 that rep at which time I had 9 zealots and he had 7 hydra building but 0 complete. Just speaking from some experience, but try not to use your own replays as i think progames should have been put up. But still..... B lvl players are always nice to watchs. | ||
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Knickknack
United States1187 Posts
worth going for 3rd gate early unless P is going to keep pumping zealots, and that's not possible to do without cutting corners hard with probes/sair/2nd gas. Imo chance that 3gate would do significant damage where 2gate would not is slim. Look at the numbers -- from forge-cc-nexus start 2gate can have 10speedlot done at 6:50. Cutting probes at the right places to maximize production only makes slightly less zealots than a really hard cut 3gate, but faster everything else -- probes, tech, corsairs. So the build plan would look like this: make 10speedzealots & 4-5sairs. Then archives. This makes it so that the player can have storm done ~8:30 (compared to ~10min with mass zealot/sair build). If the player only makes 1-2 sairs instead of constant then its basically the build idea I showed in the other thread, and which is better is debatable. Still, if the player wants to stay with zealot/sair for quite some time (something like 19zealot, 7sair without archives units yet), they can either hardly cut probes as much and go +2gate and have more zealots less quick, or just add 3rd gate rather than archives. I just don't think those are the better options. The only advantage to still massing zealot is if they are able to do significant damage with the extra zealots being rallied. From reading the op I think Kwark would agree with all of this because he write things like "archive as you push out", its just that he played mass zealot/sair in reps. To sum up issues I raised: 1) Is it better to go 1-2 sair or 5+ with a speedlot build? (main point that this thread raises for me) 2) Related to above, could it be worth it to cut corsair count down to 1-2 in order to have more mins for a 3gate zealot pump? (build variation) 3) In my other thread the main point I was concerned with was if +1 was worth it for speedlot rush from sair opening. I concluded that generally yes it is worth it, but non +1 is good also. If wanting to go mass sair though +1 can cut into that a bit. 4) Is it better to cut out and tech after ~10speedlots or keep them coming? | ||
KwarK
United States43830 Posts
I'll experiment with cutting the 3rd gate (should give me smoother probe production) and you're right, it kicks in so late it's only useful if the zealots are actually going to overwhelm him so you're rallied to his base. When they're just doing shock damage I agree there's no need. I think 5 sairs are an essential part of the build (why it works vs mutas and zerglings). There are other zealot builds which don't need the corsairs but they instead rely on other units for defeating mutalisks. The mutalisk question cannot be ignored and this build answers it with corsairs. That said, if you want to write up another variation on it then please feel free and I'll edit it in. A topic devoted to FE zealot openings would be very useful and comprehensive. In answer to your 4th point, it's actually very cheap to switch to tech. The one off costs are 250/200 (assimilator, archives). From there every ht you make is a zealot you don't make which saves you money which in turn goes into cannons or new gateways depending on whether he's about to attack with mass hydra. The transition is surprisingly smooth in my experience. | ||
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SuperJongMan
Jamaica11586 Posts
+ Show Spoiler + Version 2. Stronger Late game, Weaker Timing Attack. You still get corsairs! 1) Double Nexus. Standard ya? 2) After Core - Stargate - Citadel - Nat Gas - +2 Gates - Sair - Speed - Air Up - Zeal/Sair The main difference this and the previous version is the nat gas. [ -_-;; ]. The gas will complete at about the time the stargate completes. As you finally manage to save up some gas, get the templar archive. * No big difference if you get sair+1 or not. When the sair comes out, 1-2 photon in main. * Make zealots and probes through the whole process 3) Templar Archives (3-4 sair timing) - attack - prepare expansion - psi storm The reason it's 3-4 sair timing is because that is when your gas will finally start really flowing. Put the archive down as soon as you don't feel starved on gas. * The purpose of the build isn't really to attack but rather be able to defend with a flexible force while also presenting a threat to the zerg. * Before getting the second expansion, prevent the zerg from getting the 4th base, and if you see space, try to go for some drones or such. Bastard Zerg - 1) The Standard: 3 hatch - lair - spire - 5 hatch hydras. You're first corsair tells all. Bring him home after the spire's done. The scourges man! * Send the zealots out with speed. The zerg can hold with sunken ling hydra. * NEVER lose these units needlessly. Only when the zerg gets a fast 3rd expo we fully engage. If you think you can get some lings or drones while not taking damage, go for it. We can't lose zealots by the magu. It's 5 hatch vs 3 gate. Of course we get pushed if we lose these guys. As your zealots commando their way around, set up your 2nd expo. Photo+Zealots can hold a lot. After holding, 8 gateway POWAaaa. Ofc you gather up your hanbang and go from there. The whole purpose of the build here is the lategame 3 base hanbang. 2) Slow Mutas: 3 Hatch - Lair - Spire 4 Hatch w/ Nat Gas - Muta & Scourge This is what zealot sair kills best. When muta/scourge come, 3-4 sairs make defence easy. * The focus here is the speedy lots. When the zergs mutas come, These guys are sent to run amuck the zerg base. Because the mutas are out, zerg has no.. blah blah, part 1. In the chaos of the drones are running around, zealots acting like headless chicken, and mutas killing zealots - take your sairs (6+) and calmly dispatch the skoji (use the zealots to help find where in the base they are). If this is done, mutas are ez. Anyways, the zerg's still at 4hatch+ at this stage so don't mass too many speed zealots but get your 2nd expo ready sooner. In this case, the zerg and toss are at the same base count, toss has taken no damage, zerg has sairs and drone damage to worry about and the game practically plays itself. 3) Hydra Lurker: 3 Hatch Lair - Den - 5 Hatch * Cut corsairs, about 3. * Cancel Legs, get archive. Get Dts. As you try to harass with this mini sair/dt, gather storms. * Don't expand and get robotics and gateways instead. We have to gather up a 2 base hanbang =(. There isn't a real easy way to necksnap the Hydra Lurker through management. Just use your dragoons and high templar well. And by well, I mean like, really really well. Like, at least 10 times better than you usually play. It won't be easy but it's not impossible. Storms are gonna be key here. Center fight well, but it'll feel pretty gay, like old 3 hatch hydra waves, and feeling short on storms... 1.07... ~_~ NO NO! 4) 2 Hatch Muta - 2 Hatch Hydra You messed up man. Scout better. If your corsair is what sees this, it's too late. * Like all zerg all ins, hold and win. Vs Muta - Cannon whichever stargate your nexus is at. Actually, go ahead and cannon everywhere. EVERYWHERE. Gather sairs, if you hold, you win -_-;; if you fail, you ... failed. Vs Hydra - Use probes and hold, and if you hold with probes, this build cleans up rather well. The 3 gate Zealots help holding a lot and as time goes, legs will also finish. In this scenario, a hydra vs speed up zeal fight actually favorites the zealots due to the count and zergs production. If you can get to this scenario without crippling damage, GJ on your win. Stork vs Yellow - Batoo Regames. Stork vs July - Batoo Regames. The games have the same builds but Stork vs July, July's immense pressure makes Stork fumble his build. Also Jangbi used this somewhere vs Firefist or so in winner's league on RH but he lost to a chogoling all in so... .. so...... YOINK! http://www.pgr21.com/zboard4/zboard.php?id=daku&page=1&sn1=&divpage=1&sn=off&ss=on&sc=on&select_arrange=headnum&desc=asc&no=1701 It's a tad old but it's not like PvZ has evolved much lately. | ||
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machinehead..
412 Posts
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Knickknack
United States1187 Posts
+ Show Spoiler + Opening: Preliminary question: How do I learn the correct building placement for FE? + Show Spoiler + 1. Read the wall-in thread for building placement rules, and for pictures: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=62652 2. Check TLPD for pvz games on the maps you want to play: http://www.teamliquid.net/tlpd/ 3. You can play in single player. Using cheats you can make buildings quickly and mind control zerglings to figure out which building placements are best. Preliminary question: Why scout on 8pylon when going FE? + Show Spoiler + You can scout after making forge or even later. This gives you more minerals which helps vs 9pool, overpool, and 12pool. But, this can cause problems especially on 4player maps if you scout opponent last. Late scout can also cause problems vs 5pool and other early pools. It also means you won't get to go nexus first vs 12 hatch builds. So scouting is always a bit of a gamble, but that is why you should scout on 8 pylon unless you are quite sure they will 9pool/overpool/12pool. Preliminary question: How many cannons do I need? + Show Spoiler + You will know how many cannons you need by scouting the zerg's build and how many lings pop out of their larvae. If they make no lings you don't even need 1cannon, but you don't know if what is hatching in their first 3larve is 6drones or 6lings, and on many maps (destination for instance) ling travel time is slightly shorter than cannon build time. That is why you typically want to build at least 1 cannon. If they build more than 6lings you most likely want 2canons. 2 cannons is the standard safe bet, and then build more if you see them making lots of lings. Now, there are builds zergs do where they get 12+lings with speed to try and run past your cannons into your main. In this case you will see them collecting gas for speed, and in this case you will sometimes want to build your 3rd cannon before making a gateway. Use your best judgment, and play safe if you are not sure. Also, at times you may want to pull probes from main/nat to either block lings and/or help attack vs lings. How many cannons you build can also depend on map layout and how good your simcity is. For the bellow builds I assume 2cannons as a typical reaction to the standard 8 ling opening. Build (A) vs 9pool, overpool, 12pool: 8pylon-scout, 11forge, 14cc (2cannons), 16nexus, 16gateway, 16p (in main), 17assim, then zealot or core *vs 12pool, depending on travel distance you can get away with 8p-scout then nexus/forge before cannons. While that has a faster nexus, it also tends to have less consistent probe production. So, the eco difference is not too great, and 12pool is not done often, so knowing this variation is hardly a necessity. Build (B) vs 12 hatch 11pool 8pylon-scout, 13nexus-gather min at nat and take back, 15Gate, 15forge, 17p (in main), 17assim, 17cc, then zealot or core (C) How to react vs 5pool. If you opened 10forge you may be able to get away with cannons at natural. Most likely you went 11forge however, so when you see early pool build a pylon next to your nexus asap ~12psi. Then 1-2cannons asap. Then you can either go 2gateway or gateway-gas. Vs later pools, such as 7pool you may be able to get away with cannons at nat if you went 11forge asap. Use your best judgment, and play safe if you are not sure. (D) How to react when you have not scouted them early. Sometimes on 3-4player maps you may not scout your opponent fast enough to decide between forge or nexus first. In these cases you typically want to play safe and go forge first. And then if you see that they went 12hatch you can make nexus before cannons. (E) Vs the rare 3hatch 0pool, go nexus first, and then add two gateways at nat. Constant zealot pressure while teching. These are optimized BOs vs the certain ling timings that zerg builds have. Travel distance can influence these timings, but these timings are good for most normal maps (destination, heartbreak, etc). Often at low level play, your opponent will not be doing an optimized build and then you can get away with a better build than you really should be able to do. For example, in his replay pack of iccup games [pan]kabal (b+/a- p player) often did 8p, 11forge-scout, 14forge/nexus, and got away with it vs overpools. But one time an opponent recognized this and 5pooled him next game and quickly won. When Kabal played a couple of games vs Mondragon, one game he lost quickly and another he had to deal with lings in his base. The point is I don't suggest learning bad habits vs weaker players. | ||
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Louder
United States2276 Posts
If you're going to 3 gate, you should do the +1 speed build where you throw down two stargates. It's a faster timing and better overall build, and gives you the ability to take a 3rd on 3 gates with dt/sair while getting temps / 6 gates. | ||
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foppa
Canada451 Posts
On December 04 2009 07:31 Louder wrote: Not to piss on the parade, but that no +1 build is really not optimal at all. There's no reason to pump corsairs because your timing is really early and you will know if he's making mutas or not. It also delays your archive a lot more than what's necessary. The 2 gate no +1 build is much better, basically the same early game build but you only add 1 additional gate, and only make 2 corsairs at the start. You have a nice 7 zeal timing attack with speed right before spire completes, with two archons on 4-6 gates before your initial attack is ended. If you're going to 3 gate, you should do the +1 speed build where you throw down two stargates. It's a faster timing and better overall build, and gives you the ability to take a 3rd on 3 gates with dt/sair while getting temps / 6 gates. the 3 gate +1 into double stargate is really good except i still havent figured out how to play it out vs players who will opt for 4 hatch hydra to counter the +1 rush. | ||
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Louder
United States2276 Posts
On December 04 2009 08:48 foppa wrote: the 3 gate +1 into double stargate is really good except i still havent figured out how to play it out vs players who will opt for 4 hatch hydra to counter the +1 rush. You don't make the 2nd stargate and you don't make more than 2 corsairs.. | ||
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foppa
Canada451 Posts
On December 04 2009 09:09 Louder wrote: You don't make the 2nd stargate and you don't make more than 2 corsairs.. i think i was leaning more towards no stargate at all but storm still ends up coming out very late making canons necessary to hold off the counter. maybe im doing it way wrong though t.t | ||
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Chameleon
United States604 Posts
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win8282
Korea (South)454 Posts
Thanks Kwark! I went 6-2 with your speedlot timing push... (the 2 times I lost was b/c I was greedy and allowed ling runby) | ||
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KwarK
United States43830 Posts
On December 04 2009 09:43 chameleonia wrote: kwark- In your experience w/ this build when do zergs typically get +1 carapace compared to you? If they get it at about the same time or before you is it best to research armor first since you'll never get that 2hit vs lings mark? Do you add a second/3rd forge at some point to try to make up for the slow upgrades? Sometimes earlier, sometimes around the same time. I normally go 2 forge anyway when I can, but that's simply a stylistic choice. | ||
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XCLuSive
Canada121 Posts
Besides waiting for 7 sairs, what is the difference between the build Kwark described and the one Jongman described? | ||
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win8282
Korea (South)454 Posts
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Metaspace
Austria670 Posts
But: I am not a high level player, and perhaps because of this (i.e., do not follow popular BOs), if I do not see the forge spinning, and I see no robo before my OL dies to sair, I will assume zeal pressure, and mass lings. Even if I don't scout the no robo, but my occasional suicide ling sees growing zeal numbers, I will mass lings. But perhaps that's just me! In any case I'd suggest to hide some of your zeals. | ||
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sAfuRos
United States743 Posts
I'm a C+ level toss but my PvZ lately is like F-. Can't beat anyone for shit I'br been practicing this build of yours, its been working pretty well and i was like 7-0 with it . Anyways, i started a new account to go for my end-season record (which i try to make best) and i ran into this: http://repdepot.net/replay.php?id=25867 Its against some guy who i assume is not D+ cause i was overwhelmed like a whore, plus his iccup is undefeated and i bet he's decent. He did speedlings but i didn't really lose everything, i traded zealots for lings. But immediately after he got a ton of lurkers and i had no idea what to do. I wasn't really playing hard because i assumed he was just some D+ guy and so my tech was a bit late, but even if it had not been, i feel like i would have been crushed Some potential and actual problems i see of my own are: -Right side simcity? I do the same as you do on the left but my rightside i'm not sure. Didn't really let me hide my tech so he definitely saw my fast cyber -Sair count? I don't play sairs usually so i only got 1 to scout and another in case of muta, but i really dont think more would have helped -Kept pushing at his third? Probably a waste, no? And then obviously i didn't really macro great or multitask great cause i thought he was bad but even if i had i think his lurk contain would have done me in... | ||
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