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On November 23 2009 16:06 Gnarly wrote:
I am not talking strictly 2port > flore, actually, not even that at all. I'm talking about flare in TvZ. No build order at all, so please get off the 2port > flare discussion that shouldn't be here.
I just watched a replay, described it, and then I get to my conclusion, in which is the whole point of this thread, the use of flare in tvz.
why would you use flare if not goign 2 port? only cloaked terran units are ghost and wraith. you gonna mass ghosts instead?
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Hong Kong20321 Posts
mass flares w/ spider mines duh
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On November 23 2009 16:16 Gnarly wrote:Show nested quote +On November 23 2009 16:11 koreasilver wrote:
You specifically talked about 2port builds, and linked flare usage with cloaked wraiths.
What are you on about. I talked about the build that Boxer had used, specifically, and linked flare and the wraiths together which formed the question "why isn't flare used in TvZ".
Boxer's build was 2port wraiths.
What are you on about.
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I considered this, but once the Zerg gets punished the first time, he can just keep 3 stacked ovies and you won't be able to blind them.
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Netherlands6142 Posts
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Hong Kong20321 Posts
"is nullyfying the detection ability" -> nullifying
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You've never seen someone going 2 port TvZ before? o_O
Anyway this will never work, overlords are far too cheap and plentiful, not to mention the limited energy of wraiths and the effectiveness of spore colonies.
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what about flare+ghost.. that would be pretty cool
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I can kind of see a benefit in this, imagine Zerg has 11mutas and 1 ovie in contol group vs 2p wraith...well if u flare the ovie u can get alot of potshots off on the mutas. Sure the z will eventually have a spore but any sane terran going 2p wraith will run from the spore, and the z has to switch the ovie, when the ovies switches u can kill it or flare it, and he has to select another, in either scenario this would allow the terran to do more damage than simply running from the mutas.
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Zergs always bring like 2+ ovies with their mutas/hydras after overlord finishes against 2port wraiths. Do you seriously think the Zerg will be stupid enough to just bring one overlord each time when the wraiths can easily snipe single overlords? Not to mention, the whole flaring the overlord shit is only going to work when the circumstances force you to use the wraiths defensively or when they're moving with mnm in the latter stage of the game. When you're at the wraith harassing phase there is absolutely no way you're going to be able to flare overlords when you're flying around inside the Zerg base. When you're forced to use the wraiths defensively you're going to be at a stage where you're squeezing everything you have to get your rax, mnm, and marine upgrades going. When you move out with your wraiths and mnm the wraiths will have lost a lot their significance at that point so using flare just for your wraiths doesn't make much sense.
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On November 23 2009 16:37 randombum wrote:
There are many things that would make this idea fail, but one thing others haven't mentioned is that it would actually be rather difficult to flare overlords before engaging with wraiths. If you suicide the medic in to get that one overlord near the mutas, he can A bring more overlords or B snipe the medic first. If you try to flare all the overlords in the middle of battle then you are not microing your wraiths well, not to mention making your wraiths completely exposed if you happen to miss an ovie with flare. Also, it's really hard to keep a ground unit that is slower than a flying unit together.
This is probably the biggest reason. If you're trying to harrass with the wraiths and use medics to help out, the medic would have to get all the way from the T base to the Z base without getting sniped. Also, most harrassing spots that the wraiths can hit are impossible for a medic to get to. I don't have any clue how on earth you're gonna get the medic into the zerg main, or behind the natural's mineral line. Then if by some miracle the medic DOES make it alive to wherever the wraiths are harrassing, you start having the problem outlined by this post that I quoted.
So for 2 port builds, flare would only be used on the defense, and if you're defending, why bother with 2 port wraith?
And if you're not using flare with wraiths, what else would you use it for? Nukes? Actually, that would be pretty cool. Skip comsat, get nuclear siloes on both your main and natural, and do a 2 ghost 6 medic drop. Would probably be more effective than flare+wraith
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Even if flare were effective against muta/ovie, it's not going to help you at all against ensnare.
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wasn't there a pimpest play of Boxer, where he flared the ovies of a Zerg and nuked him
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On November 24 2009 04:01 Gnarly wrote:
How about this: Let's not just stick to just what some other people keep saying in this thread, but the actual thread topic - Flare in TvZ. Let's try that, if you guys are capable.
There are benefits from units not being able to see, and I want to discuss this, but you guys just want to stick to something that I didn't say. There isn't even a thread about flare in tvz, so I'm trying to help other people who like to try new things, instead of stick to numbers they are told.
I gave 1 situation where it could be beneficial (and once its exploited z will just add ovies), but the fact that zerg overlords are abundant and flare is apm/magic-consuming, this strategy will get you killed
-flare lurks? not worth it
-flare ovies? replaced with more ovies
-flare ??? Oh there is nothing else of benefit to flare
Maybe you'd be better off rushing nuke and dropping 1 ghost + 7 medics with flare, and flare every ovie in the base.
I'd be cute but terrible difficult to pull off and what about the other 3 bases zerg has
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On November 24 2009 04:01 Gnarly wrote:
How about this: Let's not just stick to just what some other people keep saying in this thread, but the actual thread topic - Flare in TvZ. Let's try that, if you guys are capable.
There are benefits from units not being able to see, and I want to discuss this, but you guys just want to stick to something that I didn't say. There isn't even a thread about flare in tvz, so I'm trying to help other people who like to try new things, instead of stick to numbers they are told.
What are you on about.
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On November 24 2009 04:01 Gnarly wrote:
How about this: Let's not just stick to just what some other people keep saying in this thread, but the actual thread topic - Flare in TvZ. Let's try that, if you guys are capable.
There are benefits from units not being able to see, and I want to discuss this, but you guys just want to stick to something that I didn't say. There isn't even a thread about flare in tvz, so I'm trying to help other people who like to try new things, instead of stick to numbers they are told.
Because it sucks. You've made
one
two
three
four
and now FIVE!!! strategy threads full of bad ideas. Standards are standards for a reason. People deviate from standards for a reason. But people don't try to make totally retarded ideas work just because they want to use some bad spell or unit or something. You don't need to make a new thread for every spell or unit you think MIGHT be useful in some extremely retarded 1/100000 chance situation. Just please stop making threads.
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On November 24 2009 04:47 Gnarly wrote:Show nested quote +On November 24 2009 04:14 2on2 wrote:On November 24 2009 04:01 Gnarly wrote:
How about this: Let's not just stick to just what some other people keep saying in this thread, but the actual thread topic - Flare in TvZ. Let's try that, if you guys are capable.
There are benefits from units not being able to see, and I want to discuss this, but you guys just want to stick to something that I didn't say. There isn't even a thread about flare in tvz, so I'm trying to help other people who like to try new things, instead of stick to numbers they are told. I gave 1 situation where it could be beneficial (and once its exploited z will just add ovies), but the fact that zerg overlords are abundant and flare is apm/magic-consuming, this strategy will get you killed -flare lurks? not worth it -flare ovies? replaced with more ovies -flare ??? Oh there is nothing else of benefit to flare Maybe you'd be better off rushing nuke and dropping 1 ghost + 7 medics with flare, and flare every ovie in the base. I'd be cute but terrible difficult to pull off and what about the other 3 bases zerg has Flare is very few actions being taken, so the APM discussion about that is completely absurd. Even then, most people on here are no where close to being good enough to worry about the distribution of actions. If you flare one ovie, they aren't going to make another ovie, because it still serves the main purpose: supply. They can just switch them out, but you can just keep flaring them. Eventually, their overlords are just going to be blind. You can stack them, but then they would be vulnerable to valks being stacked and all. If you think about it, the overlord is the main unit of the zerg army. It provides valuable scouting information, while being a detector unit. Gives the supply needed, and can transport. It can even be used a cannon fodder. Flaring them, they are only useful for the supply, transportation and cannon fodder. Ok step 1, flare 200 supply worth of overlords. Step 2, valks to kill stacked overlords. Step 3, lose because blind overlords don't mean shit in TvZ because you don't have and cloaked units, and your medics have no energy.
Zerg doesn't use overlords for scouting in ZvT after the first 6 minutes of the game, zergs use lings for that. Your threads are hilarious.
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EPT
