EPT[I] Using the scout.
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Gnarly
United States151 Posts
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sharkeyanti
United States1273 Posts
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RedTerror
New Zealand742 Posts
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Always
United States376 Posts
Although you mentioned some great possible uses for the scout, you have to consider that not all opponents will use air against you. If I go a 5-fact timing push, and you've spent minerals, gas, and food on a scout, what purpose will it have aside from annoying me? I will most likely have turrets in place to defend against dt/zealot drops or reaver harass, and then goliaths in my main army if I have an armory before I push out. I don't feel as if scout harass would be that effective. the scout loses further value if I don't get a starport until after a good 5 or 6 facts. If you're being attacked and pushed into the back of your base by tanks, vults, and a couple goliaths during a 110 food push (or sooner), I think you'd rather have 4 zealots than a scout. what do you think dude? | ||
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cosiant
Canada616 Posts
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doubleupgradeobbies!
Australia1187 Posts
In PvT there are just easier and more efficient ways to deal with dropship play, which puts the T economically behind if it fails anyway. In PvP, your opponent will have goons, and if they get shuttle speed, they shuttle is actually alot more mobile than your scout, and a stargate doesn't normally come into your build very early, whereas they probably need the robo for obbies anyway. If they already went for reavers then it's pretty trivial for them to run their shuttle back to some goons, then get shuttle speed to deal with your slow ass scouts. | ||
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meeple
Canada10211 Posts
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meeple
Canada10211 Posts
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WheelOfTime
Canada331 Posts
1 scout takes care of this problem. Essentially adds 6 goons to your main army and saves you 20 or so probes. | ||
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Sinensis
United States2513 Posts
On November 08 2009 16:31 cosiant wrote: Well the scouts did help Bisu out once (baring humiliation) and someone else, Kal? Can someone please link this VOD or tell me who he does this against/what map? | ||
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randombum
United States2378 Posts
But if they suck that bad you can probably kill them with pure probes. The purpose you want to use the scout seems to be like: Please don't harrass my workers so I have a weaker army, instead I'll just make my army weaker without you doing anything at all. | ||
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Aca
United States165 Posts
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AcrossFiveJulys
United States3612 Posts
On November 08 2009 16:15 Gnarly wrote: Now we move on to the ground damage of the scout. A simple eight damage. Yikes. But hey, it does amazing air damage. Defend against drop harassment, and harass with that same unit? That sounds kind of like a mutalisk. Sniping off HT and harassing, although the mutalisk is slower than the scout once you upgrade speed. So we have a fast moving, anti-air unit capable of harassment. Even though the scouts' ground damage is meager, it's still an attack that forces your opponents attention. yeah, just like mutalisks except they cost nearly 3x as much minerals, require 2x the build time, and you need to spend 500/350 to research speed upgrade. And they even have less air to ground attack... mutalisk does 9 damage + 2 bounces, but scout does 8 damage from dual weapons which means it will lose 2 damage for each armor their target has. also, you can't train them in batches like you can with mutas since the structure that builds them is expensive. Oh, and I might mention that they take full damage from every unit (because of their large size) except ghosts, while mutas take reduced damage from most units because of their small size. i would address the rest of your points, but they are all horrible and it's obvious that your knowledge of the game is very limited. the scout is just a terrible unit. the only way they might be worth building is if they cost like 225/125 and they came with the speed upgrade by default. | ||
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meeple
Canada10211 Posts
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doubleupgradeobbies!
Australia1187 Posts
On November 08 2009 16:15 Gnarly wrote: That sounds kind of like a mutalisk. Sniping off HT and harassing, although the mutalisk is slower than the scout once you upgrade speed. So we have a fast moving, anti-air unit capable of harassment. Even though the scouts' ground damage is meager, it's still an attack that forces your opponents attention. I think this is the crux of the problem. You are by far overestimating the mobility of a scout. Without the speed upgrade, the scout is MUCH slower than a mutalisk, has much more turning time, takes much longer to build, and can only be built 1 at a time. The speed upgrade is done from the fleet beacon, and will cost you a ton. If you want it in any decent amount of time(which can't be done anyway cos it takes forever to build/research), you will die from having spent so much resources on units that are basically useless against goons head on. Furthermore about the mobility. A slow scout, will not stop drops from a shuttle, at best it will kill a non-speed shuttle once it's dropped whatever it was dropping and is trying to run back. With a speed shuttle, 1 scout will not be able to defend more than 1 expo, cos if they see your scout, they will just go to another expo and harass that, then run away before your scout can even get there. Furthermore, harassing is pretty terrible too, it takes 6 hits to kill a single probe(it will regen some shield), keeping in mind the terrible ground attack speed scouts have, and picking off single pylons is laughable, make a game and time how long it takes for a single scout(or even a couple!) takes to kill a single pylon. Finally: That sounds kind of like a mutalisk If zerg could only build 1 mutalisk at a time, and they normally ran them around in packs of 1 or 2, mutalisks would be terrible units too. And this is a unit that is by default faster, cheaper and does more ground damage(splash) than a scout. | ||
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Nevuk
United States16280 Posts
Scouts are never used in pvp except vs like 1 base carriers, a la much on plasma, because they get owned so bad by any amount of goons. There really is no critical mass of scouts in pvp like there is in PvT or PvZ. In PvT they do have some use, mostly against 2 fac builds, and also just totally prevent T from going air on island maps. One on one a scout can beat a battle cruiser most of the time. In PvZ they probably have the most potential use, however they are much more difficult to micro than a corsair is, take longer to reach critical mass, and you would still need the first corsair to scout their base within a reasonable length of time. also, this demonstrates the flaw in your logic : What about leaving goons there? That's 2-4 goons that can be used elsewhere, like in your main army, a feint, harassment or whatever. Yet, they are stuck doing nothing, and may have to be moved elsewhere to defend a nat or expo, making their original goal now a feasible target. One scout costs far, far, far more than 2-4 goons. | ||
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Pieguy314
Canada262 Posts
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numLoCK
Canada1416 Posts
Otherwise, not so much. | ||
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Nevuk
United States16280 Posts
On November 08 2009 17:31 Pieguy314 wrote: I think the only plausible matchup that scouts would be effective would be PvT. If you're a considerably better player than a Zerg, going scouts is very feasible and incredibly annoying. (Also if you have a large advantage it can work even if they aren't worse. There's a replay somewhere where a pro goes 2 hatch muta and does no damage, the P eventually builds 4 stargate scouts and the game lasts like 40 minutes. It's on blue storm.) | ||
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HaXXspetten
Sweden15718 Posts
ForGG vs Kal | ||
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