EPT[I] Using the scout.
| Forum Index > Brood War Strategy |
|
Gnarly
United States151 Posts
| ||
|
sharkeyanti
United States1273 Posts
| ||
|
RedTerror
New Zealand742 Posts
| ||
|
Always
United States376 Posts
Although you mentioned some great possible uses for the scout, you have to consider that not all opponents will use air against you. If I go a 5-fact timing push, and you've spent minerals, gas, and food on a scout, what purpose will it have aside from annoying me? I will most likely have turrets in place to defend against dt/zealot drops or reaver harass, and then goliaths in my main army if I have an armory before I push out. I don't feel as if scout harass would be that effective. the scout loses further value if I don't get a starport until after a good 5 or 6 facts. If you're being attacked and pushed into the back of your base by tanks, vults, and a couple goliaths during a 110 food push (or sooner), I think you'd rather have 4 zealots than a scout. what do you think dude? | ||
|
cosiant
Canada616 Posts
| ||
|
doubleupgradeobbies!
Australia1187 Posts
In PvT there are just easier and more efficient ways to deal with dropship play, which puts the T economically behind if it fails anyway. In PvP, your opponent will have goons, and if they get shuttle speed, they shuttle is actually alot more mobile than your scout, and a stargate doesn't normally come into your build very early, whereas they probably need the robo for obbies anyway. If they already went for reavers then it's pretty trivial for them to run their shuttle back to some goons, then get shuttle speed to deal with your slow ass scouts. | ||
|
meeple
Canada10211 Posts
| ||
|
meeple
Canada10211 Posts
| ||
|
WheelOfTime
Canada331 Posts
1 scout takes care of this problem. Essentially adds 6 goons to your main army and saves you 20 or so probes. | ||
|
Sinensis
United States2513 Posts
On November 08 2009 16:31 cosiant wrote: Well the scouts did help Bisu out once (baring humiliation) and someone else, Kal? Can someone please link this VOD or tell me who he does this against/what map? | ||
|
randombum
United States2378 Posts
But if they suck that bad you can probably kill them with pure probes. The purpose you want to use the scout seems to be like: Please don't harrass my workers so I have a weaker army, instead I'll just make my army weaker without you doing anything at all. | ||
|
Aca
United States165 Posts
| ||
|
AcrossFiveJulys
United States3612 Posts
On November 08 2009 16:15 Gnarly wrote: Now we move on to the ground damage of the scout. A simple eight damage. Yikes. But hey, it does amazing air damage. Defend against drop harassment, and harass with that same unit? That sounds kind of like a mutalisk. Sniping off HT and harassing, although the mutalisk is slower than the scout once you upgrade speed. So we have a fast moving, anti-air unit capable of harassment. Even though the scouts' ground damage is meager, it's still an attack that forces your opponents attention. yeah, just like mutalisks except they cost nearly 3x as much minerals, require 2x the build time, and you need to spend 500/350 to research speed upgrade. And they even have less air to ground attack... mutalisk does 9 damage + 2 bounces, but scout does 8 damage from dual weapons which means it will lose 2 damage for each armor their target has. also, you can't train them in batches like you can with mutas since the structure that builds them is expensive. Oh, and I might mention that they take full damage from every unit (because of their large size) except ghosts, while mutas take reduced damage from most units because of their small size. i would address the rest of your points, but they are all horrible and it's obvious that your knowledge of the game is very limited. the scout is just a terrible unit. the only way they might be worth building is if they cost like 225/125 and they came with the speed upgrade by default. | ||
|
meeple
Canada10211 Posts
| ||
|
doubleupgradeobbies!
Australia1187 Posts
On November 08 2009 16:15 Gnarly wrote: That sounds kind of like a mutalisk. Sniping off HT and harassing, although the mutalisk is slower than the scout once you upgrade speed. So we have a fast moving, anti-air unit capable of harassment. Even though the scouts' ground damage is meager, it's still an attack that forces your opponents attention. I think this is the crux of the problem. You are by far overestimating the mobility of a scout. Without the speed upgrade, the scout is MUCH slower than a mutalisk, has much more turning time, takes much longer to build, and can only be built 1 at a time. The speed upgrade is done from the fleet beacon, and will cost you a ton. If you want it in any decent amount of time(which can't be done anyway cos it takes forever to build/research), you will die from having spent so much resources on units that are basically useless against goons head on. Furthermore about the mobility. A slow scout, will not stop drops from a shuttle, at best it will kill a non-speed shuttle once it's dropped whatever it was dropping and is trying to run back. With a speed shuttle, 1 scout will not be able to defend more than 1 expo, cos if they see your scout, they will just go to another expo and harass that, then run away before your scout can even get there. Furthermore, harassing is pretty terrible too, it takes 6 hits to kill a single probe(it will regen some shield), keeping in mind the terrible ground attack speed scouts have, and picking off single pylons is laughable, make a game and time how long it takes for a single scout(or even a couple!) takes to kill a single pylon. Finally: That sounds kind of like a mutalisk If zerg could only build 1 mutalisk at a time, and they normally ran them around in packs of 1 or 2, mutalisks would be terrible units too. And this is a unit that is by default faster, cheaper and does more ground damage(splash) than a scout. | ||
|
Nevuk
United States16280 Posts
Scouts are never used in pvp except vs like 1 base carriers, a la much on plasma, because they get owned so bad by any amount of goons. There really is no critical mass of scouts in pvp like there is in PvT or PvZ. In PvT they do have some use, mostly against 2 fac builds, and also just totally prevent T from going air on island maps. One on one a scout can beat a battle cruiser most of the time. In PvZ they probably have the most potential use, however they are much more difficult to micro than a corsair is, take longer to reach critical mass, and you would still need the first corsair to scout their base within a reasonable length of time. also, this demonstrates the flaw in your logic : What about leaving goons there? That's 2-4 goons that can be used elsewhere, like in your main army, a feint, harassment or whatever. Yet, they are stuck doing nothing, and may have to be moved elsewhere to defend a nat or expo, making their original goal now a feasible target. One scout costs far, far, far more than 2-4 goons. | ||
|
Pieguy314
Canada262 Posts
| ||
|
numLoCK
Canada1416 Posts
Otherwise, not so much. | ||
|
Nevuk
United States16280 Posts
On November 08 2009 17:31 Pieguy314 wrote: I think the only plausible matchup that scouts would be effective would be PvT. If you're a considerably better player than a Zerg, going scouts is very feasible and incredibly annoying. (Also if you have a large advantage it can work even if they aren't worse. There's a replay somewhere where a pro goes 2 hatch muta and does no damage, the P eventually builds 4 stargate scouts and the game lasts like 40 minutes. It's on blue storm.) | ||
|
HaXXspetten
Sweden15718 Posts
ForGG vs Kal | ||
|
kirbyraeg
United States20 Posts
or...PERHAPS as a late-game techswitch vs an ultraling or mass air zerg, making a control group of speed-upgraded scouts and harassing expos/hunting ovies to force hydras to defend at their expos and maybe to harass the moving ultra-ling force as well... maybe it could tie in with a sair-carrier strategy since scouts could also work by targeting devourers, etc. | ||
|
flothefreak
Germany77 Posts
On November 08 2009 18:08 HaXXspetten wrote: If you want to see how to use the scout; then check out: ForGG vs Kal Can anyone tell me what song is played in this vod at the very beginning? What about adding scouts (with speed) to your PvT lategame army to snipe vessels before they can EMP your arbiters? In lategame, those ressources could be spent easier and with their enormous anti-air damage, a few scouts will one-hit vessels. Plus they're then so fast and have high HP, sniping will be quite easy I guess. And they'd pay off because you trade them for high-gas units. Kinda like irridiate->defilers, just for protoss and killing vessels :p | ||
|
onewingedmoogle
Canada434 Posts
| ||
|
Alur
Denmark3900 Posts
On November 08 2009 19:21 flothefreak wrote: Can anyone tell me what song is played in this vod at the very beginning? What about adding scouts (with speed) to your PvT lategame army to snipe vessels before they can EMP your arbiters? In lategame, those ressources could be spent easier and with their enormous anti-air damage, a few scouts will one-hit vessels. Plus they're then so fast and have high HP, sniping will be quite easy I guess. And they'd pay off because you trade them for high-gas units. Kinda like irridiate->defilers, just for protoss and killing vessels :p http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=61893 All-time proscene music thread. | ||
|
wok
United States504 Posts
On November 08 2009 19:32 onewingedmoogle wrote: what if you went for the fleet beacon, upgrading distruption web and the scout speed. then ground units are less of a threat to your scouts, and maybe you could easily take out shuttles and dropships But why? Even with speed, if you're talking about dealing with ground, just don't do it! It doesn't even matter if you have disruption web up. Scouts do almost NO damage to ground. They're basically marines... if you want to go disruption web, (which I haven't really seen much) scouts still don't seem worth it. | ||
|
ProoM
Lithuania1741 Posts
| ||
|
Severedevil
United States4838 Posts
Unfortunately, the speed upgrade costs a fortune that you won't have if you're paying 275 minerals for every scout, and they're not guaranteed to murder mutalisk/scourge like a decent stack of corsairs. You need sick harassment to get anywhere with scouts. | ||
|
538
Hungary3932 Posts
On November 08 2009 16:47 Sinensis wrote: Can someone please link this VOD or tell me who he does this against/what map? Bisu versus Hwasin on Python Kal vs ForGG on Colosseum, actually in both of their Arena MSL games on Colosseum2 had scouts, but only the first is good  (see my recent article on Kal  )ask G5 about scouts in general Scouts are good in PvZ for throwing the Z off balance, but G5 also uses them in the lategame, with speed and stacking, you can micro them like vultures against scourge. Fun | ||
jhNz
Germany2762 Posts
| ||
Ninja4ever.
France231 Posts
| ||
|
sixghost
United States2096 Posts
On November 08 2009 18:08 HaXXspetten wrote: If you want to see how to use the scout; then check out: ForGG vs Kal And then watch game 5 where he tries the same shit again, and ForGG rolls him. | ||
|
hyst.eric.al
United States2332 Posts
On November 08 2009 17:35 numLoCK wrote: seriously.Scouts are incredibly viable against bad opponents. Otherwise, not so much. face it, they're way too expensive. | ||
|
Triple7
United States656 Posts
+ Show Spoiler + Bisu was so far ahead, he could've produced ANYTHING and still won. | ||
|
doubleupgradeobbies!
Australia1187 Posts
On November 09 2009 02:43 Triple7 wrote: Bisu vs Hwasin (2007) + Show Spoiler + http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=amOmbCTd2aw Bisu was so far ahead, he could've produced ANYTHING and still won. iirc the only game where bisu used scouts in an actual non-humiliation role was vs much (1 base carrier?) on plasma. The best humiliation match he used them in was vs firebathero where he got scout speed and used them with the carriers, the commentators were all: 'awwwwww Scoutuuuu speeduuuu!' | ||
|
Nosmo
Canada210 Posts
| ||
|
Another_Pro
United States66 Posts
Also, 12 fully upgraded scouts can actually kill 24 devours if you target fire single devours. -_- that's pretty crazy. Edit: Actually if zerg target fires single scouts it comes out barely in zergs favor, though if u spread out enough to avoid acid spore slow down you should win. | ||
|
Metaspace
Austria670 Posts
A cannon cannot be sniped by 2 scourge. :-) | ||
|
kirbyraeg
United States20 Posts
also, arguably viable if the zerg goes mass air vs a carrier-corsair late-game strategy, you can target fire devourers quite effectively. you'd have to plan to go into carrier-corsair though... | ||
|
2on2
United States142 Posts
| ||
|
nicoaldo
Argentina939 Posts
Just ask G5...I´ve seen games of him doing wonders with scout micro, i think he beat Gorush with scouts, and i remember an epic game vs machine in bluestorm that he almost won in the late game (and gave machine a headache). scouts are great for humiliation and the stove technique, other than, forget about it like a dark archon. So wrong imo... | ||
|
illu
Canada2531 Posts
| ||
|
ceaRshaf
Romania4926 Posts
Maybe starting a pvp game with a FE like versus zerg? Just sain'... | ||
|
Severedevil
United States4838 Posts
On November 09 2009 23:32 ceaRshaf wrote: I think people don't give credit to scouts because they try to implement them in current build orders and strategies, but think of a build order like scouts into carriers build in pvp or pvt. You have to use the stargates and fleet bacon to other uses if you want to make the strategy viable. Maybe starting a pvp game with a FE like versus zerg? Just sain'... ... Scouts and FE in PvP? Are you aware that PvP revolves around dragoons? | ||
|
lone_hydra
Canada1460 Posts
On November 09 2009 23:59 Severedevil wrote: ... Scouts and FE in PvP? Are you aware that PvP revolves around dragoons? Scouts are useless in modern PVP as no one goes for carriers. One cannon and dragoon own every scout. The only time I would consider scouts useful are harassment vs. Zerg or a counter to ed game air units. | ||
|
ceaRshaf
Romania4926 Posts
Scouts and FE in PvP? Are you aware that PvP revolves around dragoons? Yes, but do you think that when Bisu invented the build that crusher zergs someone came to him and told him "hey young man, you are aware that pvz revolves around high templars?". It's called thinking out of the box. Of course FE pvp is a lame strategy, or at least i have no argument to sustain it, but the fact that it's not in the current style it's not an argument of it's own to pawn it. The goal would be to go 2 base carriers, and the scouts would have the role to keep the enemy goons in the base with the harras until carriers are out. In the meantime zealots with +1. | ||
|
Equaoh
Canada427 Posts
On November 10 2009 01:04 ceaRshaf wrote: Yes, but do you think that when Bisu invented the build that crusher zergs someone came to him and told him "hey young man, you are aware that pvz revolves around high templars?". It's called thinking out of the box. Of course FE pvp is a lame strategy, or at least i have no argument to sustain it, but the fact that it's not in the current style it's not an argument of it's own to pawn it. The goal would be to go 2 base carriers, and the scouts would have the role to keep the enemy goons in the base with the harras until carriers are out. In the meantime zealots with +1. One might go FE but it's generally not worth making strategies at (relatively) low levels that count on your opponent not realizing they could crush you at any point in the early/mid game. But as for scouts, I think you CAN produce them early PvZ (instead of first sair) off of one gate tech. They can tank hydra shots/kill ovies much better than sairs on a 1v1 level. Then timing push while Z is supply blocked. This thread: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=48673 Ra vs July is mentioned, woo 2007. | ||
|
ProoM
Lithuania1741 Posts
On November 09 2009 04:48 Nosmo wrote: Lol, this is the same guy who suggested hallucination in pvp. mass halluz on reavers in pvp and your opponent will shit his pants before the battle even begun and he will type out. Thats sounds like an awsome plan ;D. | ||
|
ProoM
Lithuania1741 Posts
On November 10 2009 01:04 ceaRshaf wrote: Yes, but do you think that when Bisu invented the build that crusher zergs someone came to him and told him "hey young man, you are aware that pvz revolves around high templars?". It's called thinking out of the box. Of course FE pvp is a lame strategy, or at least i have no argument to sustain it, but the fact that it's not in the current style it's not an argument of it's own to pawn it. The goal would be to go 2 base carriers, and the scouts would have the role to keep the enemy goons in the base with the harras until carriers are out. In the meantime zealots with +1. reaver outranges cannons. gg. | ||
|
rredtooth
5459 Posts
On November 09 2009 23:19 nicoaldo wrote: but they also require a lot of micro and in late game it gets pretty hard trying to weave stacked air units back and forth while macroing/expanding. and let's not forget you have to be so far ahead to be able to afford 11 scouts + fleet beacon + speed upgrade. i don't want to even start calculating how many resources that takes. and get all this while holding onto your lead, preventing more Z expansions, maintaining your army size. at that point any unit combination can theoretically be powerful with proper micro.Vs Zerg , when you are ahead, stacked scouts with speed are so powerful, you can destroy zerg's economy picking drones left and right, scourge can´t hit you if you patrol-micro, and you kill overlords in one hit. to OP, i went back and read your hallucination thread (the one that got locked). i understand you are trying to be rebellious and take a fresh approach at the matchups but your ideas are pretty bad and aren't new. its not a revolutionary-enough idea that people are willing to consider it just for the sake of novelty nor are they practical enough to warrant discussion. your topics are generally very wordy versions of "hey remember that (unit/spell) that isn't used much? i think it can work! here's a very loose situation where it might." unless you actually come up with a practical application for that new unit, put it into practice, and provide replays of it being put to use, you're gonna be bashed by the forum goers and eventually be banned from the strategy forums by our patron deity Chill. go look at village_idiot's post about queens for a new idea that actually worked out. look at my spire thread for an idea that failed hard but was discussed just because it was really novel. you work hard on your OPs but your ideas aren't there. keep at it, take a fresher approach (not just taking an unused unit and trying to argue its uses) and maybe you actually will discover something new. until then, stop making new [I] threads. | ||
KwarK
United States42693 Posts
On November 10 2009 01:04 ceaRshaf wrote: Yes, but do you think that when Bisu invented the build that crusher zergs someone came to him and told him "hey young man, you are aware that pvz revolves around high templars?". It's called thinking out of the box. Of course FE pvp is a lame strategy, or at least i have no argument to sustain it, but the fact that it's not in the current style it's not an argument of it's own to pawn it. The goal would be to go 2 base carriers, and the scouts would have the role to keep the enemy goons in the base with the harras until carriers are out. In the meantime zealots with +1. If you're building scouts to keep him in base it's not gonna work because goons are half the price and even in a fight so he can make two armies, both capable of defeating your scouts, and leave one at home and attack with one. Plus you're making scouts so your carriers aren't actually being built. Unless you mean just a few scouts in which case I have no idea how you plan to keep him in base with that. If he leaves 2 dragoons at home (which people do vs reaver anyway) those scouts are worthless. Zealots < dragoons and +1 is not especially valuable in PvP. You want it but it's not like +1 zealots PvZ. Nothing about your post make any sense at all. You're going to go the units which don't work out of the building which you need to be not using to win the game while at the same time blocking him with units weak against what he has and getting upgrades that don't change anything. | ||
|
da_head
Canada3350 Posts
however, scouts will always fulfill the role of mindfucking your opponents | ||
|
Severedevil
United States4838 Posts
Might be viable on Outsider... air control opens a lot of new expansions. In general, the scout costs enough that you have to get a LOT of out it to make it worthwhile, does no damage in PvT (and is slower than a dropship), dies to scourge in PvZ, and is impotent in goon-heavy PvP. Making it cost-effective is very difficult. | ||
|
GreEny K
Germany7312 Posts
| ||
|
Impervious
Canada4200 Posts
| ||
|
whoseline
Canada29 Posts
On November 08 2009 18:08 HaXXspetten wrote: If you want to see how to use the scout; then check out: ForGG vs Kal at the start of the video: "please don't let my MSL VODs and Proleague embed into TeamLiquid -BaeZZi" (aka Jon747). is there a feud between TL and Jon747, or just a simple matter of "not wanting videos embedded on other sites"? i think i've seen some of his videos embedded in some topics in TL... | ||
|
Coca Cola Classic
266 Posts
| ||
|
Torenhire
United States11681 Posts
We've gone over this before... | ||
|
Xiphos
Canada7507 Posts
| ||
|
Gnarly
United States151 Posts
| ||
|
Nevuk
United States16280 Posts
| ||
|
Zato-1
Chile4253 Posts
| ||
|
ShadowDrgn
United States2497 Posts
On November 08 2009 20:59 538 wrote: Bisu versus Hwasin on Python Kal vs ForGG on Colosseum, actually in both of their Arena MSL games on Colosseum2 had scouts, but only the first is good (see my recent article on Kal )ask G5 about scouts in general Scouts are good in PvZ for throwing the Z off balance, but G5 also uses them in the lategame, with speed and stacking, you can micro them like vultures against scourge. Fun This game too: http://www.teamliquid.net/tlpd/games/7451_Flash_vs_Stork/vod Great comeback with the use of a scout. | ||
|
monolith94
United States47 Posts
| ||
|
Severedevil
United States4838 Posts
On November 10 2009 12:15 monolith94 wrote: How cheap would the scout have to be for it to be considered a viable part of a toss build? 200/100? Lower? I find the cost of speed (500/400) and the build time on scouts (twice as long as corsairs, you need more gas-intensive stargates) more debilitating than the actual resource cost, but 200/100 would probably make them competitive, if you were getting a stargate anyway. The trouble I find with scouts in PvZ is: 1) If you build scout before corsair, your flier reaches the Zerg base much later, often negating the harassment advantage. (Exception - the Zerg hid his overlords, or only built a spore to protect them.) 2) Scouts die to scourge before scout speed. It might cost the Zerg more gas than the Protoss, since you'll kill some of the incoming scourge, but the mineral difference is ridiculous. 3) Speed scouts require a lot of micro to be effective air-to-air, unlike a corsair blob. So they're a dubious proposition early (might be effective REALLY early), and a lot of work to use later, when you should probably be busy controlling other units. Particularly since you can afford 1.5-2x as many corsairs as scouts... | ||
|
Gnarly
United States151 Posts
| ||
|
Impervious
Canada4200 Posts
On November 10 2009 12:15 monolith94 wrote: How cheap would the scout have to be for it to be considered a viable part of a toss build? 200/100? Lower? What about something a little different - already having the upgraded speed and sight range? | ||
| ||
