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i think that in general this flare is a good idea, it's just difficult right now to translate it into a strategy, but i guess that it's possible to make a good one; you know between ghosts, mines and wraiths you're eventually going to find a way to exploint blind overlord
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On November 24 2009 18:16 FortuneSyn wrote:Show nested quote +On November 24 2009 18:07 zerglingsfolife wrote:
First off let me say I'm a D player so you can disregard my post if you like.
I can see a few useful units for flare.
imagine I spawn at 5 o clock on destination. i fast expo and start adding rax/researching stim+range then flare. Zerg 2 or 3 hatch mutas and keeps me in my base for a time. Once I fight it off, I see zerg trying to burrow a lurker or 2 behind cliff, hitting my scvs mining at the natural. If Zerg has delayed my tanks with siege or science vessel tech with his muta harass, I am in a very uncomfortable position.
However, with flare I can either blind his OL which is out of range of my rines (lurkers lose sight and can't hit my workers), or I can Scan once and then blind his lurk(s): *FLARE has 9 Range!*
1) end harassment at the cost of 75 or 150 mana. Potentially saving tons of minerals from lost mining time where I'd either have to A)wait for tank with siege,or B) wait for vessel with irradiate, or C)move mnm to behind my natural, delaying my ability to pressure and opening myself to a counter.
Another time i can think where blind might be helpful is in late game. Imagine a ZvT on HBR. Late game I'm patrolling the map with a rogue control group of mnm trying to take out zerg expansions. I see 2/3 lurks burrowed on a ridge that would be difficult to engage with my group. I blind 2/3 lurks and can then outrange them*(if they really do get range halved when blind). I can think take out the lurks and take out the zergs expansion.
These are just a few instances where I thought it could be used.
I have actually never thought of blinding lurks up a ramp to take out zerg's third, nice!
ok that's hot as fuck. imma try that, instead of waiting for tank get flare and blind lurkers to take out third. holy shit.
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Who the fuck cares if the overlord is scouting, just let it scout. You flare the fucker, the zerg player brings a new fucker to replace it and made you waste your precious bitch's energy. Now he will just a move his zerglins in and you can't fucking heal your units because you spent it on of.
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On November 24 2009 19:51 LeoTheLion wrote:Show nested quote +On November 24 2009 18:16 FortuneSyn wrote:On November 24 2009 18:07 zerglingsfolife wrote:
First off let me say I'm a D player so you can disregard my post if you like.
I can see a few useful units for flare.
imagine I spawn at 5 o clock on destination. i fast expo and start adding rax/researching stim+range then flare. Zerg 2 or 3 hatch mutas and keeps me in my base for a time. Once I fight it off, I see zerg trying to burrow a lurker or 2 behind cliff, hitting my scvs mining at the natural. If Zerg has delayed my tanks with siege or science vessel tech with his muta harass, I am in a very uncomfortable position.
However, with flare I can either blind his OL which is out of range of my rines (lurkers lose sight and can't hit my workers), or I can Scan once and then blind his lurk(s): *FLARE has 9 Range!*
1) end harassment at the cost of 75 or 150 mana. Potentially saving tons of minerals from lost mining time where I'd either have to A)wait for tank with siege,or B) wait for vessel with irradiate, or C)move mnm to behind my natural, delaying my ability to pressure and opening myself to a counter.
Another time i can think where blind might be helpful is in late game. Imagine a ZvT on HBR. Late game I'm patrolling the map with a rogue control group of mnm trying to take out zerg expansions. I see 2/3 lurks burrowed on a ridge that would be difficult to engage with my group. I blind 2/3 lurks and can then outrange them*(if they really do get range halved when blind). I can think take out the lurks and take out the zergs expansion.
These are just a few instances where I thought it could be used.
I have actually never thought of blinding lurks up a ramp to take out zerg's third, nice! ok that's hot as fuck. imma try that, instead of waiting for tank get flare and blind lurkers to take out third. holy shit.
Actually, the zerg player can counter this just by putting one zergling on the lurker, the lurker's range is shorten because of the fog of war, if anything is there to increase the fog of war, then the lurker's range will be normal again. so its still pointless
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what about a greedy wraiths + expo build? You research flare to be able to defend against mutas with your wraiths, very micro intensive but sounds cool; if on the other hand zerg counters with hydra lurks your wraith build then you could add vultures and spidermines, not sure about how long is the medic range for the flare spell, but hopefully it could be long enough to be able to blind overlords above a hydralurk army; again very micro intensive but sexy
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On November 24 2009 21:28 MuffinDude wrote:Show nested quote +On November 24 2009 19:51 LeoTheLion wrote:On November 24 2009 18:16 FortuneSyn wrote:On November 24 2009 18:07 zerglingsfolife wrote:
First off let me say I'm a D player so you can disregard my post if you like.
I can see a few useful units for flare.
imagine I spawn at 5 o clock on destination. i fast expo and start adding rax/researching stim+range then flare. Zerg 2 or 3 hatch mutas and keeps me in my base for a time. Once I fight it off, I see zerg trying to burrow a lurker or 2 behind cliff, hitting my scvs mining at the natural. If Zerg has delayed my tanks with siege or science vessel tech with his muta harass, I am in a very uncomfortable position.
However, with flare I can either blind his OL which is out of range of my rines (lurkers lose sight and can't hit my workers), or I can Scan once and then blind his lurk(s): *FLARE has 9 Range!*
1) end harassment at the cost of 75 or 150 mana. Potentially saving tons of minerals from lost mining time where I'd either have to A)wait for tank with siege,or B) wait for vessel with irradiate, or C)move mnm to behind my natural, delaying my ability to pressure and opening myself to a counter.
Another time i can think where blind might be helpful is in late game. Imagine a ZvT on HBR. Late game I'm patrolling the map with a rogue control group of mnm trying to take out zerg expansions. I see 2/3 lurks burrowed on a ridge that would be difficult to engage with my group. I blind 2/3 lurks and can then outrange them*(if they really do get range halved when blind). I can think take out the lurks and take out the zergs expansion.
These are just a few instances where I thought it could be used.
I have actually never thought of blinding lurks up a ramp to take out zerg's third, nice! ok that's hot as fuck. imma try that, instead of waiting for tank get flare and blind lurkers to take out third. holy shit. Actually, the zerg player can counter this just by putting one zergling on the lurker, the lurker's range is shorten because of the fog of war, if anything is there to increase the fog of war, then the lurker's range will be normal again. so its still pointless
True, but I think it would work at least the first time... there's not many zergs that put a ling with their lurkers expecting you to blind them
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On November 25 2009 02:53 meeple wrote:Show nested quote +On November 24 2009 21:28 MuffinDude wrote:On November 24 2009 19:51 LeoTheLion wrote:On November 24 2009 18:16 FortuneSyn wrote:On November 24 2009 18:07 zerglingsfolife wrote:
First off let me say I'm a D player so you can disregard my post if you like.
I can see a few useful units for flare.
imagine I spawn at 5 o clock on destination. i fast expo and start adding rax/researching stim+range then flare. Zerg 2 or 3 hatch mutas and keeps me in my base for a time. Once I fight it off, I see zerg trying to burrow a lurker or 2 behind cliff, hitting my scvs mining at the natural. If Zerg has delayed my tanks with siege or science vessel tech with his muta harass, I am in a very uncomfortable position.
However, with flare I can either blind his OL which is out of range of my rines (lurkers lose sight and can't hit my workers), or I can Scan once and then blind his lurk(s): *FLARE has 9 Range!*
1) end harassment at the cost of 75 or 150 mana. Potentially saving tons of minerals from lost mining time where I'd either have to A)wait for tank with siege,or B) wait for vessel with irradiate, or C)move mnm to behind my natural, delaying my ability to pressure and opening myself to a counter.
Another time i can think where blind might be helpful is in late game. Imagine a ZvT on HBR. Late game I'm patrolling the map with a rogue control group of mnm trying to take out zerg expansions. I see 2/3 lurks burrowed on a ridge that would be difficult to engage with my group. I blind 2/3 lurks and can then outrange them*(if they really do get range halved when blind). I can think take out the lurks and take out the zergs expansion.
These are just a few instances where I thought it could be used.
I have actually never thought of blinding lurks up a ramp to take out zerg's third, nice! ok that's hot as fuck. imma try that, instead of waiting for tank get flare and blind lurkers to take out third. holy shit. Actually, the zerg player can counter this just by putting one zergling on the lurker, the lurker's range is shorten because of the fog of war, if anything is there to increase the fog of war, then the lurker's range will be normal again. so its still pointless True, but I think it would work at least the first time... there's not many zergs that put a ling with their lurkers expecting you to blind them
Zerglings typically accompany lurkers in ZvT... unless lurkers are being used to hold a choke, they are almost always accompanied by zerglings and mutalisks. That and lurkers are rarely alone so you'd need to blind a lot of them. It seems more practical to me to just kill them with Irradiate or siege tanks or even a simple marine spread.
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On November 25 2009 04:28 Kyo Yuy wrote:Zerglings typically accompany lurkers in ZvT... unless lurkers are being used to hold a choke,
You... you mean a choke like the ramp going to their 3rd, which is what people are talking about?!
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On November 25 2009 02:53 meeple wrote:Show nested quote +On November 24 2009 21:28 MuffinDude wrote:On November 24 2009 19:51 LeoTheLion wrote:On November 24 2009 18:16 FortuneSyn wrote:On November 24 2009 18:07 zerglingsfolife wrote:
First off let me say I'm a D player so you can disregard my post if you like.
I can see a few useful units for flare.
imagine I spawn at 5 o clock on destination. i fast expo and start adding rax/researching stim+range then flare. Zerg 2 or 3 hatch mutas and keeps me in my base for a time. Once I fight it off, I see zerg trying to burrow a lurker or 2 behind cliff, hitting my scvs mining at the natural. If Zerg has delayed my tanks with siege or science vessel tech with his muta harass, I am in a very uncomfortable position.
However, with flare I can either blind his OL which is out of range of my rines (lurkers lose sight and can't hit my workers), or I can Scan once and then blind his lurk(s): *FLARE has 9 Range!*
1) end harassment at the cost of 75 or 150 mana. Potentially saving tons of minerals from lost mining time where I'd either have to A)wait for tank with siege,or B) wait for vessel with irradiate, or C)move mnm to behind my natural, delaying my ability to pressure and opening myself to a counter.
Another time i can think where blind might be helpful is in late game. Imagine a ZvT on HBR. Late game I'm patrolling the map with a rogue control group of mnm trying to take out zerg expansions. I see 2/3 lurks burrowed on a ridge that would be difficult to engage with my group. I blind 2/3 lurks and can then outrange them*(if they really do get range halved when blind). I can think take out the lurks and take out the zergs expansion.
These are just a few instances where I thought it could be used.
I have actually never thought of blinding lurks up a ramp to take out zerg's third, nice! ok that's hot as fuck. imma try that, instead of waiting for tank get flare and blind lurkers to take out third. holy shit. Actually, the zerg player can counter this just by putting one zergling on the lurker, the lurker's range is shorten because of the fog of war, if anything is there to increase the fog of war, then the lurker's range will be normal again. so its still pointless True, but I think it would work at least the first time... there's not many zergs that put a ling with their lurkers expecting you to blind them
Might work once, but you're still going to get heavy casualty if they put 2 lurkers up a ramp like they normally do.
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No dude you just walk right past them.
Another use is when you play some zerg who goes slow drop or something just blind the lurkers if your mm micro sucks. Lol!
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On November 25 2009 09:05 LeoTheLion wrote:
No dude you just walk right past them.
Another use is when you play some zerg who goes slow drop or something just blind the lurkers if your mm micro sucks. Lol!
yea sure, just walk right past lurker shooting spines down the ramp, you'll probably end up with dead rines.
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On November 25 2009 09:05 LeoTheLion wrote:
No dude you just walk right past them.
Another use is when you play some zerg who goes slow drop or something just blind the lurkers if your mm micro sucks. Lol!
They still get a small vision left they aren't completely blind
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If you guys get a chance to test any of these ideas, please posts reps and tell about their success. I'm gonna try my next tvz to incorporate some of these ideas, especially since d level zerg often open lurker.
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On November 25 2009 10:03 zerglingsfolife wrote:
If you guys get a chance to test any of these ideas, please posts reps and tell about their success. I'm gonna try my next tvz to incorporate some of these ideas, especially since d level zerg often open lurker.
I tested against comps where I was p, I mc a drone and a scv, (using cheats of course) and made lurkers and blinded them. I positioned them right on top and the comp's marine tried to walk up but once they got into my lurker's range of sight, they melted because they were all lined up single filed up the ramp and the spine shot all the way down the ramp. It won't work, and I also put a zergling on top of the lurker and the lurker was shooting spines just fine.
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On November 25 2009 09:22 Aurious wrote:Show nested quote +On November 25 2009 09:05 LeoTheLion wrote:
No dude you just walk right past them.
Another use is when you play some zerg who goes slow drop or something just blind the lurkers if your mm micro sucks. Lol! They still get a small vision left they aren't completely blind
That. If the lurkers are burrowed on top of the ramp, they will still see whatever unit walks right over them when you move your rines up the ramp. Then they shoot spines at the ramp and now all your shit on the ramp is dead. You don't need sight for lurker splash.
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How about for nuking zerg? Usually when a nuke is detected, the zerg, if they spot the dot, will only bring one or two overlords over. So a dropship with 5-6 medics and 1 ghost, if your blind micro is decent then you can definitely stall for long enough for the nuke to fall ; )
One thing that always bugs me is that I never see nukes used against zerg, which I thought was the whole point of blind anyway...
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10387 Posts
On November 25 2009 13:05 feuxfollets wrote:Show nested quote +On November 25 2009 09:22 Aurious wrote:On November 25 2009 09:05 LeoTheLion wrote:
No dude you just walk right past them.
Another use is when you play some zerg who goes slow drop or something just blind the lurkers if your mm micro sucks. Lol! They still get a small vision left they aren't completely blind That. If the lurkers are burrowed on top of the ramp, they will still see whatever unit walks right over them when you move your rines up the ramp. Then they shoot spines at the ramp and now all your shit on the ramp is dead. You don't need sight for lurker splash.
So after you flare the lurkers, you can spread your marines and shoot up the ramp. The marines get luxury of attacking first which makes breaking the third and getting a ginormous advantage much easier. Plus, some zergs don't burrow the lurkers right at the ramp, which makes running up the ramp after a flare a possibility.
I expect to see this pimp move happen soon, more likely in a foreigner match *coughTSLcough*
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On November 25 2009 13:51 Confuse wrote:
How about for nuking zerg? Usually when a nuke is detected, the zerg, if they spot the dot, will only bring one or two overlords over. So a dropship with 5-6 medics and 1 ghost, if your blind micro is decent then you can definitely stall for long enough for the nuke to fall ; )
One thing that always bugs me is that I never see nukes used against zerg, which I thought was the whole point of blind anyway... ... are you saying this is a viable strategy? what happens when they run away their drones and you don't kill anything but the extractor?
people it's not a question of whether its "theoretically possible". it's a question of viability and this idea absolutely fails on so many fronts. upmagic's flare+mine strategy is a great example of how too much novelty doesn't do you any good.
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On November 25 2009 14:11 ArvickHero wrote:Show nested quote +On November 25 2009 13:05 feuxfollets wrote:On November 25 2009 09:22 Aurious wrote:On November 25 2009 09:05 LeoTheLion wrote:
No dude you just walk right past them.
Another use is when you play some zerg who goes slow drop or something just blind the lurkers if your mm micro sucks. Lol! They still get a small vision left they aren't completely blind That. If the lurkers are burrowed on top of the ramp, they will still see whatever unit walks right over them when you move your rines up the ramp. Then they shoot spines at the ramp and now all your shit on the ramp is dead. You don't need sight for lurker splash. So after you flare the lurkers, you can spread your marines and shoot up the ramp. The marines get luxury of attacking first which makes breaking the third and getting a ginormous advantage much easier. Plus, some zergs don't burrow the lurkers right at the ramp, which makes running up the ramp after a flare a possibility. I expect to see this pimp move happen soon, more likely in a foreigner match *coughTSLcough*
Even if you did get the first shot, it's not like the lurkers are going to miss because they're blind. They still shoot in a straight line. When you attack a blinded unit it gives you vision of the unit attacking it and the lurkers fire down the ramp, still killing marines.
Just take a tank and scan or use a sci like everyone else.
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On November 25 2009 11:05 MuffinDude wrote:Show nested quote +On November 25 2009 10:03 zerglingsfolife wrote:
If you guys get a chance to test any of these ideas, please posts reps and tell about their success. I'm gonna try my next tvz to incorporate some of these ideas, especially since d level zerg often open lurker. I tested against comps where I was p, I mc a drone and a scv, (using cheats of course) and made lurkers and blinded them. I positioned them right on top and the comp's marine tried to walk up but once they got into my lurker's range of sight, they melted because they were all lined up single filed up the ramp and the spine shot all the way down the ramp. It won't work, and I also put a zergling on top of the lurker and the lurker was shooting spines just fine.
people usually put the lurkers a little above the ramp so there's a little space you can squeeze through.
if not, you can run a fire bat to the back and draw fire, and then kill the lurkers with your marines
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EPT
