[I] Flare TvZ

On November 23 2009 16:21 hellokitty[hk] wrote:
If the zerg has competant micro, 2 port wraith is nearly impossible to pull off.
One old school game boxer flared a ton of observers (obviously using a dropship and loading meds!), then beat a massive carrier fleet with cloacked wraiths. But that was still an oldschool game.

On November 23 2009 16:37 randombum wrote:
Why do you start a new start thread every week involving some crazy idea that almost everybody disagrees with?

On November 23 2009 16:06 Gnarly wrote:
I am not talking strictly 2port > flore, actually, not even that at all. I'm talking about flare in TvZ. No build order at all, so please get off the 2port > flare discussion that shouldn't be here.

I just watched a replay, described it, and then I get to my conclusion, in which is the whole point of this thread, the use of flare in tvz.

On November 23 2009 16:06 Gnarly wrote:
I am not talking strictly 2port > flore, actually, not even that at all. I'm talking about flare in TvZ. No build order at all, so please get off the 2port > flare discussion that shouldn't be here.

I just watched a replay, described it, and then I get to my conclusion, in which is the whole point of this thread, the use of flare in tvz.

On November 23 2009 16:16 Gnarly wrote:


I talked about the build that Boxer had used, specifically, and linked flare and the wraiths together which formed the question "why isn't flare used in TvZ".

On November 23 2009 23:35 Pholon wrote:
I've been working on the Flare page for a while, but it isnt up in the regular wiki yet:

http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft/User:Pholon/Optical_Flare

On November 23 2009 16:37 randombum wrote:
There are many things that would make this idea fail, but one thing others haven't mentioned is that it would actually be rather difficult to flare overlords before engaging with wraiths. If you suicide the medic in to get that one overlord near the mutas, he can A bring more overlords or B snipe the medic first. If you try to flare all the overlords in the middle of battle then you are not microing your wraiths well, not to mention making your wraiths completely exposed if you happen to miss an ovie with flare. Also, it's really hard to keep a ground unit that is slower than a flying unit together.

On November 24 2009 04:01 Gnarly wrote:
How about this: Let's not just stick to just what some other people keep saying in this thread, but the actual thread topic - Flare in TvZ. Let's try that, if you guys are capable.

There are benefits from units not being able to see, and I want to discuss this, but you guys just want to stick to something that I didn't say. There isn't even a thread about flare in tvz, so I'm trying to help other people who like to try new things, instead of stick to numbers they are told.

On November 24 2009 04:01 Gnarly wrote:
How about this: Let's not just stick to just what some other people keep saying in this thread, but the actual thread topic - Flare in TvZ. Let's try that, if you guys are capable.

There are benefits from units not being able to see, and I want to discuss this, but you guys just want to stick to something that I didn't say. There isn't even a thread about flare in tvz, so I'm trying to help other people who like to try new things, instead of stick to numbers they are told.

On November 24 2009 04:01 Gnarly wrote:
How about this: Let's not just stick to just what some other people keep saying in this thread, but the actual thread topic - Flare in TvZ. Let's try that, if you guys are capable.

There are benefits from units not being able to see, and I want to discuss this, but you guys just want to stick to something that I didn't say. There isn't even a thread about flare in tvz, so I'm trying to help other people who like to try new things, instead of stick to numbers they are told.

On November 24 2009 04:47 Gnarly wrote:



Flare is very few actions being taken, so the APM discussion about that is completely absurd. Even then, most people on here are no where close to being good enough to worry about the distribution of actions.

If you flare one ovie, they aren't going to make another ovie, because it still serves the main purpose: supply. They can just switch them out, but you can just keep flaring them. Eventually, their overlords are just going to be blind. You can stack them, but then they would be vulnerable to valks being stacked and all.

If you think about it, the overlord is the main unit of the zerg army. It provides valuable scouting information, while being a detector unit. Gives the supply needed, and can transport. It can even be used a cannon fodder. Flaring them, they are only useful for the supply, transportation and cannon fodder.

On November 24 2009 04:59 Gnarly wrote:


Make them use overlords. But your post is hilarious.

On November 23 2009 16:37 randombum wrote:
Why do you start a new start thread every week involving some crazy idea that almost everybody disagrees with?

On November 24 2009 05:07 Gnarly wrote:



Lings can't scout certain areas. Only air units can scout certain vital areas of the map. That's why you usually see certain buildings/units in certain places. Overlords can scout the drop path of a dropship, but if it's blind, it can no longer do that. This means that the drop isn't going to be spotted, making it that much more effective. So make them use overlords to scout.

But still, your post is funny.

On November 24 2009 05:07 Gnarly wrote:



Lings can't scout certain areas. Only air units can scout certain vital areas of the map. That's why you usually see certain buildings/units in certain places. Overlords can scout the drop path of a dropship, but if it's blind, it can no longer do that. This means that the drop isn't going to be spotted, making it that much more effective. So make them use overlords to scout.

But still, your post is funny.

On November 24 2009 04:01 Gnarly wrote:
How about this: Let's not just stick to just what some other people keep saying in this thread, but the actual thread topic - Flare in TvZ. Let's try that, if you guys are capable.

There are benefits from units not being able to see, and I want to discuss this, but you guys just want to stick to something that I didn't say. There isn't even a thread about flare in tvz, so I'm trying to help other people who like to try new things, instead of stick to numbers they are told.

On November 24 2009 07:08 Gnarly wrote:



You're off topic. Quit discussing wraiths and medics being together. I'm not, and I'm the OP, so quit derailing this thread. I don't know why you guys just don't get it.

On November 24 2009 07:08 Gnarly wrote:



You're off topic. Quit discussing wraiths and medics being together. I'm not, and I'm the OP, so quit derailing this thread. I don't know why you guys just don't get it.

On November 24 2009 07:16 ZERG_RUSSIAN wrote:

BECAUSE WITHOUT WRAITHS THERE IS NO POINT IN USING BLIND, GET THE POINT ALREADY

On November 24 2009 05:57 cgrinker wrote:
First off that game was fucking awesome, and against By.hero.

Second that build was fucking awesome and was obviously to check out walling vs Zergling rush on outsider.

Third, if there was another game against gogo I sound like a dbag right now.

fourth, that build is going into LP just as soon as I figure out how to put them in there.

On November 24 2009 07:08 Gnarly wrote:



You're off topic. Quit discussing wraiths and medics being together. I'm not, and I'm the OP, so quit derailing this thread. I don't know why you guys just don't get it.

On November 24 2009 08:59 OneOther wrote:

I have decided to not open your threads/blogs from now on. For my own good.

On November 24 2009 06:39 Gnarly wrote:


You still haven't understood what I've been saying. I'm not talking about 2port > flare, so I won't be talking about 2port > flare. It just happened to be in the OP as a thought, nothing more, and yet people like you seem to think, "Oh, let's dismiss the context of this sentence, just single out 2port > flare, say that's what he is saying, and then debate on an argument which doesn't even exist."

Another thing, I know for a fact that zerg's use their overlords for scouting certain areas, and is actually recommended, instead of just keeping your ovies in your base. Yeah, sure, mutalisks can easily scout the same spot an ovie can, but they aren't gonna chill there, like an ovie would. It's like observers, you make some and put them in a certain area to check out what's going on.

From liquipedia: 'If the map allows for it, Overlords should be kept above cliffs or ridges where the opponent cannot see them with a ground army. They can also just be spread around the map and retreated when a ground army is sighted so the Zerg player knows where the opponent's army is. Overlords can also be placed at potential expansion sites to monitor whether the opponent is taking an expansion. The exception to this advice is Zerg vs. Zerg."

"versus Terran

You must be careful when scouting Terrans with Overlords early game because just two Marines will kill it if given the opportunity. However, overlords can be placed on ridges or in areas where the Terran player cannot snipe them to watch for dropships. "

If you blind them, they lose their scouting purpose. Scouting is very valuable, unless I'm just a complete noob. Get it?

On November 24 2009 14:29 saltywet wrote:
play me, im d- and ill let u flare my overlords

On November 24 2009 15:11 LeoTheLion wrote:
GYS I HAVE A BETTER IDEA

IF WE"RE GONNA USE COMSAT FOR SIGHT SO WE CAN BLIND THE OVERLORD

WHY DON"T WE JUST KLIL IT INSTEAD

On November 24 2009 18:07 zerglingsfolife wrote:
First off let me say I'm a D player so you can disregard my post if you like.

I can see a few useful units for flare.

imagine I spawn at 5 o clock on destination. i fast expo and start adding rax/researching stim+range then flare. Zerg 2 or 3 hatch mutas and keeps me in my base for a time. Once I fight it off, I see zerg trying to burrow a lurker or 2 behind cliff, hitting my scvs mining at the natural. If Zerg has delayed my tanks with siege or science vessel tech with his muta harass, I am in a very uncomfortable position.
However, with flare I can either blind his OL which is out of range of my rines (lurkers lose sight and can't hit my workers), or I can Scan once and then blind his lurk(s): *FLARE has 9 Range!*
1) end harassment at the cost of 75 or 150 mana. Potentially saving tons of minerals from lost mining time where I'd either have to A)wait for tank with siege,or B) wait for vessel with irradiate, or C)move mnm to behind my natural, delaying my ability to pressure and opening myself to a counter.

Another time i can think where blind might be helpful is in late game. Imagine a ZvT on HBR. Late game I'm patrolling the map with a rogue control group of mnm trying to take out zerg expansions. I see 2/3 lurks burrowed on a ridge that would be difficult to engage with my group. I blind 2/3 lurks and can then outrange them*(if they really do get range halved when blind). I can think take out the lurks and take out the zergs expansion.

These are just a few instances where I thought it could be used.

On November 24 2009 18:16 FortuneSyn wrote:


I have actually never thought of blinding lurks up a ramp to take out zerg's third, nice!

On November 24 2009 19:51 LeoTheLion wrote:


ok that's hot as fuck. imma try that, instead of waiting for tank get flare and blind lurkers to take out third. holy shit.

On November 24 2009 21:28 MuffinDude wrote:


Actually, the zerg player can counter this just by putting one zergling on the lurker, the lurker's range is shorten because of the fog of war, if anything is there to increase the fog of war, then the lurker's range will be normal again. so its still pointless

On November 25 2009 02:53 meeple wrote:


True, but I think it would work at least the first time... there's not many zergs that put a ling with their lurkers expecting you to blind them

On November 25 2009 04:28 Kyo Yuy wrote:Zerglings typically accompany lurkers in ZvT... unless lurkers are being used to hold a choke,

On November 25 2009 02:53 meeple wrote:


True, but I think it would work at least the first time... there's not many zergs that put a ling with their lurkers expecting you to blind them

On November 25 2009 09:05 LeoTheLion wrote:
No dude you just walk right past them.

Another use is when you play some zerg who goes slow drop or something just blind the lurkers if your mm micro sucks. Lol!

On November 25 2009 09:05 LeoTheLion wrote:
No dude you just walk right past them.

Another use is when you play some zerg who goes slow drop or something just blind the lurkers if your mm micro sucks. Lol!

On November 25 2009 10:03 zerglingsfolife wrote:
If you guys get a chance to test any of these ideas, please posts reps and tell about their success. I'm gonna try my next tvz to incorporate some of these ideas, especially since d level zerg often open lurker.

On November 25 2009 09:22 Aurious wrote:

They still get a small vision left they aren't completely blind

On November 25 2009 13:05 feuxfollets wrote:


That. If the lurkers are burrowed on top of the ramp, they will still see whatever unit walks right over them when you move your rines up the ramp. Then they shoot spines at the ramp and now all your shit on the ramp is dead. You don't need sight for lurker splash.

On November 25 2009 13:51 Confuse wrote:
How about for nuking zerg? Usually when a nuke is detected, the zerg, if they spot the dot, will only bring one or two overlords over. So a dropship with 5-6 medics and 1 ghost, if your blind micro is decent then you can definitely stall for long enough for the nuke to fall ; )

One thing that always bugs me is that I never see nukes used against zerg, which I thought was the whole point of blind anyway...

On November 25 2009 14:11 ArvickHero wrote:

So after you flare the lurkers, you can spread your marines and shoot up the ramp. The marines get luxury of attacking first which makes breaking the third and getting a ginormous advantage much easier. Plus, some zergs don't burrow the lurkers right at the ramp, which makes running up the ramp after a flare a possibility.

I expect to see this pimp move happen soon, more likely in a foreigner match *coughTSLcough*

On November 25 2009 11:05 MuffinDude wrote:


I tested against comps where I was p, I mc a drone and a scv, (using cheats of course) and made lurkers and blinded them. I positioned them right on top and the comp's marine tried to walk up but once they got into my lurker's range of sight, they melted because they were all lined up single filed up the ramp and the spine shot all the way down the ramp. It won't work, and I also put a zergling on top of the lurker and the lurker was shooting spines just fine.

On November 25 2009 15:50 LeoTheLion wrote:


people usually put the lurkers a little above the ramp so there's a little space you can squeeze through.

if not, you can run a fire bat to the back and draw fire, and then kill the lurkers with your marines

On November 24 2009 07:17 ZERG_RUSSIAN wrote:
When was the last time you saw a ghost in ZvT?

On November 25 2009 15:50 LeoTheLion wrote:


people usually put the lurkers a little above the ramp so there's a little space you can squeeze through.

if not, you can run a fire bat to the back and draw fire, and then kill the lurkers with your marines

On November 25 2009 14:11 ArvickHero wrote:

So after you flare the lurkers, you can spread your marines and shoot up the ramp. The marines get luxury of attacking first which makes breaking the third and getting a ginormous advantage much easier. Plus, some zergs don't burrow the lurkers right at the ramp, which makes running up the ramp after a flare a possibility.

I expect to see this pimp move happen soon, more likely in a foreigner match *coughTSLcough*

On November 26 2009 00:28 LeoTheLion wrote:
point is some don't put it EXACTLY on top of ramp. it's a little behind. usually there are no zerling there either until later in the game.

also lurkers will only gain vision of marines attacking. when they are blind marines will get first hit.

i would def try this with a friend to see if it works

On November 26 2009 00:28 LeoTheLion wrote:
point is some don't put it EXACTLY on top of ramp. it's a little behind. usually there are no zerling there either until later in the game.

also lurkers will only gain vision of marines attacking. when they are blind marines will get first hit.

i would def try this with a friend to see if it works

On November 26 2009 15:33 Gnarly wrote:
Wait, would you actually put your lurkers really close to a ramp, knowing tanks can obliterate them with ease? It would be better to put them further back from tank range. This could be enough space to punish a zerg who just put lurkers there. I don't know shit about TvZ, though.