I don't think this would work at all, mainly with the vulture follow up.

Usually a protoss would be able to scout this with a probe, if not, a dragoon. If a protoss doesn't see an FD push he usually starts to wonder wtf the terran is doing. The push will be pretty late, and the dragoon will probly see it. As he micros backwards towards his base, he'll get free hit on the marines (You mentioned upgrading stim, not range. Vs upgraded goons this is bad.) This will probly give him ample time to make a forge, which would counter ur build completely. Thats why you usually see a tank or 2 mixed in with the MnM not vultures, because a cannon will completely destroy any viability this build has.

A3iL3r0n

United States2196 Posts

November 12 2009 04:25 GMT

You have to have really good control to pull off mnm into the mid-game vP.

Though, I think this is the rush you're referring to:

Deep Six

YoureFired

United States822 Posts

November 12 2009 04:33 GMT

MnM builds are usually pretty easy to counter, even with only dragoons. I remember playing a game vs a guy who had a good amount of marines and medics and I just teched to reavers while delaying with dragoons. They actually perform pretty well even without that much micro - hold position + move back takes marines down before they can fire off more than a clip or two.

Severedevil

United States4838 Posts

November 12 2009 04:50 GMT

I was under the impression you could do a 'Super-Strong FD" with M&M + stim & 2 tanks at ~the same time as a strong FD, without showing the academy before your marines kill the probe, if you delay mines and possibly delay your expansion.

Strong FD = 8 marines + 2 tanks w/mines & vultures followup, Stim FD = 7 marines + 1 medic + 2tanks + stim. (Or maybe 8 marines + 2tanks + stim and rally medics - you could pretend it's a normal strong FD until you can get mileage out of a surprise stim.) Costs 150 minerals (academy) and 25 gas (medic gas) more, which shouldn't delay you very much. You could probably include the mine/vulture followup without trouble if you delay the mines upgrade.

Misrah

United States1695 Posts

November 12 2009 05:21 GMT

The only problem with this build, if P plays safe and goes for a quick Ob's your screwed. if you only have mines, and not any tanks to speak of- he will come waltzing straight to your natural and delay your expo for ever.

YPang

United States4024 Posts

November 12 2009 05:25 GMT

i might try it i guess you can use vults to pick off templars, and then mnm to finish everythign else off.

Gnarly

United States151 Posts

November 12 2009 05:50 GMT

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Severedevil

United States4838 Posts

November 12 2009 06:06 GMT

#10

I do not think that M&M + Vulture will be effective, because without tanks you don't have the range to bully dragoons. (Stim allows you to run a little faster than dragoons, but then you run past your medic and your guys die in 3 hits, meanwhile the dragoon you focus will run away.) Modern dragoon micro is too good not to open with tanks, IMO. (Unless you're going proxy factory or something, to put mines in weird places. That could work, although the probe would notice your lack of factory in main, unless you went for M&M + 2fact (one proxied) which would require a lot more aggression to pay off. (But dragoons retreating into mines makes Terran smile.)

Tank + marine can force dragoons back even if you don't have stim + medic, so I expect it'll only be better with stim + medic. (At the cost of delaying mines and expansion, I think... Terran is my off-off race so I don't know, but there must be a cost to putting academy + stim + medic (250/125) into a Strong FD build. You might be able to afford mines at the normal time just by keeping 3 on gas until you upgrade mines (or maybe finish comsat) and delaying the expansion a lot. This would allow you a very strong opening push, particularly if you rallied infantry + vultures, but your expo would significantly delayed.)

I'm thinking something like this:

Barracks
Factory
nonstop marines
Academy
Machine Shop
two tanks
research stimpack + build 1-2 medics
research mines
take two SCVs off gas
Second tank finishes --> attack
rally vultures
rally marines
Comsat
Expand

Bebop Berserker

United States246 Posts

November 12 2009 06:30 GMT

#11

If protoss expands this build is good. if he techs this build is a bitch. I would recommend some kind of dropship type of play after mines while expanding and teching to siege mode. hopefully you can stall or do enough damage to put yourself back into the game and transition into deep six. if you see him going obs i definitely wouldn't go fast mines though. Its suicide.

Gnarly

United States151 Posts

November 12 2009 06:46 GMT

#12

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Severedevil

United States4838 Posts

November 12 2009 06:55 GMT

#13

Terran can't get a contain until he can push Protoss's dragoon force back across the map into his base, which I'm not convinced you can do without tanks, even against just one gateway. I don't think it's possible to get stim before Protoss has ranged dragoons outside your base.

If you want to do some kind of proxy barracks bunker rush --> contain w/stim + mines, that could be interesting, but otherwise Terran doesn't get a free contain in TvP.

Mortician

Bulgaria2332 Posts

November 12 2009 07:11 GMT

#14

Everything is viable...at D level

KawaiiRice

United States2914 Posts

November 12 2009 07:34 GMT

#15

I've done bio/vult TvP before but it was after being gas jacked. I bunker expanded into academy/factory -> marine range and mnm/vult/ebay for +1 armor then pushed with my marines and used vultures to surround and use mines (in some way like ZvT heh). It got pretty late in the game but I only won because the player didn't use storm.

But in reality any bio gets demolished by tech - reaver, dt, storms... Saying you can pick all of the templars off with the vultures would be... unrealistic. So yeah... not really recommended. Even 200/200 mnm armies would be a lol for Jangbi!

Misrah

United States1695 Posts

November 12 2009 07:46 GMT

#16

ya- explain to me how you are going to snipe obs when they can sit by the range goons ? You would have to run in and suicide all of your M&M to snipe the ob, even then if you are lucky lol A good protoss will just simply move a bit slower through the field, and protect his OBs. I wont even consider the mine drag and what it could do to your M&M force lol. Have you seen the recent mine use vs ultra/ling in TvZ? Imagine that- except with more speed zeals lol

ZERG_RUSSIAN

10417 Posts

November 12 2009 07:46 GMT

#17

The real question is which upgrade is more important, stim or range? Range goons can hit a bunker if the rines don't have range, and with no tanks you probably need at least one bunker to expo. Then again, you can't attack without stim. Period.

[AhunGrY]MelOn

United States357 Posts

November 12 2009 08:17 GMT

#18

http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=57051

this is probably as good as an early bio/biomech push can be

evanthebouncy!

United States12796 Posts

November 12 2009 09:25 GMT

#19

MnM + Vulture doesn't scale properly with resources. You'll end up with 1000 gas and no minerals.
I think in general MnM + Tank is stronger, and scale better resource wise...

I guess if you are cool enough throw in mass ghost for lockdown would be funny... haha

Alaric

France45622 Posts

November 12 2009 13:15 GMT

#20

Looking at your build i'd say you come far too late with stim & mines, since an early goon pressure would prevent you to go out before that (not even speaking of 2 gates goon range's pressure), thus lending him a lot of time to to whatever he wants to do : mass units off two gates, expand...or simply tech, and then you're screwed.

But I don't believe you could get tech soon enough AND have enough units to figth or even stall him this moment on.