EPT[I] Biorush + Vulture TvP
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Gnarly
United States151 Posts
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da_head
Canada3350 Posts
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NrG.NeverExpo
Canada2114 Posts
Usually a protoss would be able to scout this with a probe, if not, a dragoon. If a protoss doesn't see an FD push he usually starts to wonder wtf the terran is doing. The push will be pretty late, and the dragoon will probly see it. As he micros backwards towards his base, he'll get free hit on the marines (You mentioned upgrading stim, not range. Vs upgraded goons this is bad.) This will probly give him ample time to make a forge, which would counter ur build completely. Thats why you usually see a tank or 2 mixed in with the MnM not vultures, because a cannon will completely destroy any viability this build has. | ||
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A3iL3r0n
United States2196 Posts
Though, I think this is the rush you're referring to: Deep Six | ||
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YoureFired
United States822 Posts
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Severedevil
United States4838 Posts
Strong FD = 8 marines + 2 tanks w/mines & vultures followup, Stim FD = 7 marines + 1 medic + 2tanks + stim. (Or maybe 8 marines + 2tanks + stim and rally medics - you could pretend it's a normal strong FD until you can get mileage out of a surprise stim.) Costs 150 minerals (academy) and 25 gas (medic gas) more, which shouldn't delay you very much. You could probably include the mine/vulture followup without trouble if you delay the mines upgrade. | ||
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Misrah
United States1695 Posts
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YPang
United States4024 Posts
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Gnarly
United States151 Posts
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Severedevil
United States4838 Posts
Tank + marine can force dragoons back even if you don't have stim + medic, so I expect it'll only be better with stim + medic. (At the cost of delaying mines and expansion, I think... Terran is my off-off race so I don't know, but there must be a cost to putting academy + stim + medic (250/125) into a Strong FD build. You might be able to afford mines at the normal time just by keeping 3 on gas until you upgrade mines (or maybe finish comsat) and delaying the expansion a lot. This would allow you a very strong opening push, particularly if you rallied infantry + vultures, but your expo would significantly delayed.) I'm thinking something like this: Barracks Factory nonstop marines Academy Machine Shop two tanks research stimpack + build 1-2 medics research mines take two SCVs off gas Second tank finishes --> attack rally vultures rally marines Comsat Expand | ||
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Bebop Berserker
United States246 Posts
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Gnarly
United States151 Posts
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Severedevil
United States4838 Posts
If you want to do some kind of proxy barracks bunker rush --> contain w/stim + mines, that could be interesting, but otherwise Terran doesn't get a free contain in TvP. | ||
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Mortician
Bulgaria2332 Posts
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KawaiiRice
United States2914 Posts
But in reality any bio gets demolished by tech - reaver, dt, storms... Saying you can pick all of the templars off with the vultures would be... unrealistic. So yeah... not really recommended. Even 200/200 mnm armies would be a lol for Jangbi!  | ||
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Misrah
United States1695 Posts
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ZERG_RUSSIAN
10417 Posts
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[AhunGrY]MelOn
United States357 Posts
this is probably as good as an early bio/biomech push can be | ||
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evanthebouncy!
United States12796 Posts
I think in general MnM + Tank is stronger, and scale better resource wise... I guess if you are cool enough throw in mass ghost for lockdown would be funny... haha | ||
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Alaric
France45622 Posts
But I don't believe you could get tech soon enough AND have enough units to figth or even stall him this moment on. | ||
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Iplaythings
Denmark9110 Posts
here ya go =)click here | ||
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Zergneedsfood
United States10671 Posts
Basically, there are many variants, but I'm come up with a push that pumps out 9 rines, 4/5 tanks, 3 scvs, and vultures rallied with speed, mines, and the siege upgrade is researching. Of course, this push is later than the USUAL rush with 6/7 rines, 3 tanks, and vultures rallied, but it's obviously much stronger. But I won't discuss build orders. The problem with your argument is that you think you can get those academy units out faster, which is entirely untrue. It's almost impossible to do it AND get out vultures. I just don't think it's a viable build at all. | ||
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julealgon
Brazil120 Posts
Don't just flame me, it's just a sincere question, and I would like to hear what you think of it, since I've actually been thinking about using it for a while now. Since OF isn't very good later on versus non-detector units, or when other units can give sight to the blind ones, researching and using it very early will at least negate a lot of the dragoon pressure, and the whole pushing out against goon micro thing is also negated. Doing this, one could maybe still go stim instead of range and put up a good fight, while holding later on with range+bunkers. Also, as someone said, since you will end up with a good amount of gas, researching OF and training 2-3 medics is not that detrimental early on, and you could also spend gas on either +1 armor or +1 weapons (I'd get armor since it helps the marines/medics take one shot more to get killed and also functions as a boost to the medics heal, since each HP now is worth more). Maybe getting the medics as soon as possible would help here, since they would charge energy while the flare upgrade finishes (120 research time IIRC, double the stim research time?) What do you guys think of this? | ||
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YPang
United States4024 Posts
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duckett
United States589 Posts
if you want to have some fun with mnm early game you have to invest and do a manifesto crusher, or else open standard and do a 4/6rax tming push (deep 6) | ||
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Pokebunny
United States10654 Posts
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Purind
Canada3562 Posts
On November 12 2009 13:50 Severedevil wrote: I was under the impression you could do a 'Super-Strong FD" with M&M + stim & 2 tanks at ~the same time as a strong FD, without showing the academy before your marines kill the probe, if you delay mines and possibly delay your expansion. I was interested in this, so I went offline to try it. I was able to do 7 rine 1 medic 2 tank, but I had no room for stim. The build was pretty tight, the acad finished just as the 7th rine came out, so there was absolutely no time to research stim by the time my first attack comes out. If you have a replay or a bo, can you share it? My acad was very soon after factory. It was something like fac -> depot -> acad (I believe right before tank, at 18 or 19 or so). I don't know how I can build the acad any sooner without cutting a whole bunch of SCVs (around 5) | ||
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Ganfei
Taiwan1439 Posts
If you want to try some different things what you can do is that "deep six" thing, but I usually go for 1 fac, not 2. You also need to turret up your entire perimeter very quickly to prevent any obs from getting into your base, then you just proceed to 5-6 rax it. There's a very good example of this in an old replay, sea.shine vs some protoss, on forte. It's the replay i copied the idea/bo from. Check it out. edit: I tried to find it, I can't. I don't know if anyone else could find it. It was some Korean team league thing, several years ago, during the round of Sea vs Hyo. Shit it might not have been hyo, I don't really remember. Sea.Shine was terran at 1 and toss was at 11 | ||
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Severedevil
United States4838 Posts
On November 13 2009 01:17 Purind wrote: I was interested in this, so I went offline to try it. I was able to do 7 rine 1 medic 2 tank, but I had no room for stim. The build was pretty tight, the acad finished just as the 7th rine came out, so there was absolutely no time to research stim by the time my first attack comes out. If you have a replay or a bo, can you share it? My acad was very soon after factory. It was something like fac -> depot -> acad (I believe right before tank, at 18 or 19 or so). I don't know how I can build the acad any sooner without cutting a whole bunch of SCVs (around 5) I'll see if I can put together a build order tonight - apologies if I'm projecting more knowledge than I actually have, as I'm NOT a Terran player. That's more or less the timing I'd expected, though - academy finishes in time to build your medic and start stim (you did have 100/100 for it, right?), which should hopefully finish during your push, much like mines finish during the push in FD/Strong FD. (It's OK to push with 2tanks + 7 marines even without stimpacks. It's just like a normal Strong FD, until stim kicks in.) | ||
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wok
United States504 Posts
On November 12 2009 16:11 Mortician wrote: Everything is viable...at D level QFT. | ||
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Gnarly
United States151 Posts
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Severedevil
United States4838 Posts
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DreaM)XeRO
Korea (South)4667 Posts
If you're looking to incorporate mnm into a mech army i suggest a deep 6 sort of build with tanks and mnm. Or do what fanta does and drop shit everywhere. | ||
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Gnarly
United States151 Posts
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DreaM)XeRO
Korea (South)4667 Posts
On November 13 2009 04:57 Gnarly wrote: I'm also expanding again really quickly after I lay my nat down. Thus is the reasoning for delaying it. The timing for stim being done should be before range is even finished, and with only 1-2 goons at my ramp, if my opponent chooses to be aggressive. I really doubt that 2 goons can handle 5 stimmed rines and 2 meds. If he loses one goon, he is really screwed. I will be very quickly following this up with a mine containment and a retreat path for my rines once the contain is no longer. At this point, he should only have about 3-5 goons, if he went one gate tech. If he went two gate, I may be able to get the timing down before it even kicks in fully, and since he will have a later obs, he wont be able to take his nat due to mines being in his nat. If a player went cannons, they would probably skip range and a number of goons, making him even more vulnerable. Plus, in order to even have cannons out and ready by around 4:30, when my rines get to his base. If I go a regular FD build, he will already have range, and I won't be able to take an extra expansion as quickly due to him having map control. Just do what tempest did. Throw up a sheild battery. Probes + goons will own rines. If the probes get a good surround or just drill your rines you're dead | ||
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julealgon
Brazil120 Posts
On November 13 2009 02:57 Gnarly wrote: The focus here is stim, so that's getting researched first. I want to use stim agaisnt goons because they move faster than goons, and double the rines DPS. If you choose to goon micro against that, you will be taking hits much more frequently than against a regular FD push or whatever. So yes, this could negate goon micro pretty effectively, imo. Actually, I disagree with this a bit. If the toss has good micro, he can still pick 0 armor marines left and right and the dragoons shields will make them almost unstoppable, and besides, if you stim up to the toss base, the medics will have no energy left and flare would then be useless for all intents and purposes. The reason I said the goon micro would be negated was in fact because of blind dragoons. On November 13 2009 02:57 Gnarly wrote: Adding the flare seems like a good idea, but how do I know I will need it? It seems I would be dedicating gas to something that I do not know of yet. The time to research flare is 120, so someone should put that in the liquipedia. My idea for the flare upgrade was to hinder the early dragoon play, and would make good use of the early medic energy and still provide help later on, since the blind status stays forever. Also, now that I think about it, getting RANGE instead of stim might be beneficial too in this situation (although flare->range will take a good amount of time to finish), if you remember how much energy the medics waste on healing stimmed marines (this is the first time I've ever worried about medic energy lol). And there is a flare build time on liquipedia, but it is wrong IIRC, I think it's 60 there, while on the map editor it clearly states 120. On November 13 2009 02:57 Gnarly wrote: ... I build a science facility, get ghost addon, then tech emp while getting a nuke, then get cloak. I drop on a different expo, flaring any obs or cannons, and nuke it while pretending to hit somewhere else. EMP nexus and destroy it. Unfortunately, I believe flare hits units only, so no cannon blinding there. And BTW, I approve any build that implements ghosts (and that uses few tanks too). They are just too awesome, I personally love them. If only it was possible to time lockdown to when the reavers came TT. | ||
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Gnarly
United States151 Posts
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danl9rm
United States3111 Posts
 and even if i didn't get ur marines, u'd lose a ton of mines each drag. u can't keep that up for long and i'd overpower u if u didn't have tanks | ||
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duckett
United States589 Posts
On November 13 2009 04:57 Gnarly wrote: I'm also expanding again really quickly after I lay my nat down. Thus is the reasoning for delaying it. The timing for stim being done should be before range is even finished, and with only 1-2 goons at my ramp, if my opponent chooses to be aggressive. I really doubt that 2 goons can handle 5 stimmed rines and 2 meds. If he loses one goon, he is really screwed. I will be very quickly following this up with a mine containment and a retreat path for my rines once the contain is no longer. At this point, he should only have about 3-5 goons, if he went one gate tech. If he went two gate, I may be able to get the timing down before it even kicks in fully, and since he will have a later obs, he wont be able to take his nat due to mines being in his nat. If a player went cannons, they would probably skip range and a number of goons, making him even more vulnerable. Plus, in order to even have cannons out and ready by around 4:30, when my rines get to his base. If I go a regular FD build, he will already have range, and I won't be able to take an extra expansion as quickly due to him having map control. I don't get why you're still going on about this build...there are like 2 pages of people saying it makes no sense. Just try it out in a real game vs a human opponent and you will get screwed, unless your opponent is just mindblowingly terrible. | ||
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MrHickoryHam54
United States208 Posts
On November 12 2009 13:21 da_head wrote: wouldn't temps roll this ez? yea good point. but ur thinking too hard. counter = 3 gate all in lots but if ur feeling good that ur opp has gone 1 gate cyber into nex or something like that, then ur build seems fine. its well planned but has a huge chance for counters. | ||
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julealgon
Brazil120 Posts
On November 13 2009 09:04 MrHickoryHam54 wrote: yea good point. but ur thinking too hard. counter = 3 gate all in lots But since he already has the early academy with stim, wouldn't firebats instantly counter any zealot pressure if scouted appropriately? | ||
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yhnmk
Canada630 Posts
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Severedevil
United States4838 Posts
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julealgon
Brazil120 Posts
On November 13 2009 09:38 Severedevil wrote: Counter = using dragoons. Dragoon micro > early M&M, I don't understand why this is a thing. Not when they are range upgraded and with +1 armor. Check out the epic  UpMaGiC vs  Nal_rA game and see for yourself. | ||
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Sad[Panda]
United States458 Posts
but ill go with the latter and say that it doesn't seem to viable without tanks and range... Dragoon micro will just rape your rines since most protoss wont move out without goon range anyway, or at least be at your base asoon as it finishes. | ||
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Gnarly
United States151 Posts
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Gnarly
United States151 Posts
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duckett
United States589 Posts
if you scouted and knew where he was before you attacked, you would have hit 3 dragoons with 5 marines and 1 medic; with proper micro and a brief probe pull if necessary, he would have won and you would be so behind it would be gg. also, you lost the battle when you had 6 marines + 1 reinforcing and 2 medics vs 4 dragoons and did not even force protoss to pull any probes...do you really think you would have won if you had gone with 5 marines + 1 medic + 1 medic reinforcing against 3 dragoons? (he has range, you have stim and no range) I don't think so. also, this was a standard 1gate fe from protoss (you got lucky that he happened to do that when you blindly started this rush); he would have been in much better shape to defend with just about any other build | ||
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Always
United States376 Posts
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duckett
United States589 Posts
On November 14 2009 03:15 Always wrote: Eh. With only one or two scans, you can only hold off 2 or 3 DTs before you HAVE to go back to your base. ??? This is not true at all. | ||
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Gnarly
United States151 Posts
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alexpnd
Canada1857 Posts
http://www.iccup.com/starcraft/content/blogs/Nada_Style_Strong_FD_with_Medic_______B.O..html standard opening.. 9 sup 11 rax 12 gas 15 sup 16 fac 2 off gas after 100 18 acad (cut scv shortly if necessary) keep pumping rines and scvs 24 sup add-on when fac finishes Build tank 2 back on gas when starting first tank 30 sup Build 2nd tank + research mine Medic after 6 rines I used to moderate success at D/D+ but I'm sure it's viable at higher levels considering the map. I got this from the Nada vs MtM replay and he pushes all the way up the choke vs a 1 gate reaver opening i believe. Its defended but its good pressure and he comes out slightly ahead iirc. Try it out, and make sure you hide your extra tank + rines/medic. | ||
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Pokebunny
United States10654 Posts
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Gnarly
United States151 Posts
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Pokebunny
United States10654 Posts
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Median
20 Posts
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