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On November 24 2009 04:59 Gnarly wrote:Show nested quote +On November 24 2009 04:54 sixghost wrote:On November 24 2009 04:47 Gnarly wrote:On November 24 2009 04:14 2on2 wrote:On November 24 2009 04:01 Gnarly wrote:
How about this: Let's not just stick to just what some other people keep saying in this thread, but the actual thread topic - Flare in TvZ. Let's try that, if you guys are capable.
There are benefits from units not being able to see, and I want to discuss this, but you guys just want to stick to something that I didn't say. There isn't even a thread about flare in tvz, so I'm trying to help other people who like to try new things, instead of stick to numbers they are told. I gave 1 situation where it could be beneficial (and once its exploited z will just add ovies), but the fact that zerg overlords are abundant and flare is apm/magic-consuming, this strategy will get you killed -flare lurks? not worth it -flare ovies? replaced with more ovies -flare ??? Oh there is nothing else of benefit to flare Maybe you'd be better off rushing nuke and dropping 1 ghost + 7 medics with flare, and flare every ovie in the base. I'd be cute but terrible difficult to pull off and what about the other 3 bases zerg has Flare is very few actions being taken, so the APM discussion about that is completely absurd. Even then, most people on here are no where close to being good enough to worry about the distribution of actions. If you flare one ovie, they aren't going to make another ovie, because it still serves the main purpose: supply. They can just switch them out, but you can just keep flaring them. Eventually, their overlords are just going to be blind. You can stack them, but then they would be vulnerable to valks being stacked and all. If you think about it, the overlord is the main unit of the zerg army. It provides valuable scouting information, while being a detector unit. Gives the supply needed, and can transport. It can even be used a cannon fodder. Flaring them, they are only useful for the supply, transportation and cannon fodder. Ok step 1, flare 200 supply worth of overlords. Step 2, valks to kill stacked overlords. Step 3, lose because blind overlords don't mean shit in TvZ because you don't have and cloaked units, and your medics have no energy. Zerg doesn't use overlords for scouting in ZvT after the first 6 minutes of the game, zergs use lings for that. Your threads are hilarious. Make them use overlords. But your post is hilarious.
lol what?
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On November 23 2009 16:37 randombum wrote:
Why do you start a new start thread every week involving some crazy idea that almost everybody disagrees with?
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On November 24 2009 05:07 Gnarly wrote:Show nested quote +On November 24 2009 05:05 sixghost wrote:On November 24 2009 04:59 Gnarly wrote:On November 24 2009 04:54 sixghost wrote:On November 24 2009 04:47 Gnarly wrote:On November 24 2009 04:14 2on2 wrote:On November 24 2009 04:01 Gnarly wrote:
How about this: Let's not just stick to just what some other people keep saying in this thread, but the actual thread topic - Flare in TvZ. Let's try that, if you guys are capable.
There are benefits from units not being able to see, and I want to discuss this, but you guys just want to stick to something that I didn't say. There isn't even a thread about flare in tvz, so I'm trying to help other people who like to try new things, instead of stick to numbers they are told. I gave 1 situation where it could be beneficial (and once its exploited z will just add ovies), but the fact that zerg overlords are abundant and flare is apm/magic-consuming, this strategy will get you killed -flare lurks? not worth it -flare ovies? replaced with more ovies -flare ??? Oh there is nothing else of benefit to flare Maybe you'd be better off rushing nuke and dropping 1 ghost + 7 medics with flare, and flare every ovie in the base. I'd be cute but terrible difficult to pull off and what about the other 3 bases zerg has Flare is very few actions being taken, so the APM discussion about that is completely absurd. Even then, most people on here are no where close to being good enough to worry about the distribution of actions. If you flare one ovie, they aren't going to make another ovie, because it still serves the main purpose: supply. They can just switch them out, but you can just keep flaring them. Eventually, their overlords are just going to be blind. You can stack them, but then they would be vulnerable to valks being stacked and all. If you think about it, the overlord is the main unit of the zerg army. It provides valuable scouting information, while being a detector unit. Gives the supply needed, and can transport. It can even be used a cannon fodder. Flaring them, they are only useful for the supply, transportation and cannon fodder. Ok step 1, flare 200 supply worth of overlords. Step 2, valks to kill stacked overlords. Step 3, lose because blind overlords don't mean shit in TvZ because you don't have and cloaked units, and your medics have no energy. Zerg doesn't use overlords for scouting in ZvT after the first 6 minutes of the game, zergs use lings for that. Your threads are hilarious. Make them use overlords. But your post is hilarious. lol what? Lings can't scout certain areas. Only air units can scout certain vital areas of the map. That's why you usually see certain buildings/units in certain places. Overlords can scout the drop path of a dropship, but if it's blind, it can no longer do that. This means that the drop isn't going to be spotted, making it that much more effective. So make them use overlords to scout. But still, your post is funny. nevermind your thread sucks
good luck blinding every overlord Z has every game so your drops do more damage.
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On November 24 2009 05:07 Gnarly wrote:Show nested quote +On November 24 2009 05:05 sixghost wrote:On November 24 2009 04:59 Gnarly wrote:On November 24 2009 04:54 sixghost wrote:On November 24 2009 04:47 Gnarly wrote:On November 24 2009 04:14 2on2 wrote:On November 24 2009 04:01 Gnarly wrote:
How about this: Let's not just stick to just what some other people keep saying in this thread, but the actual thread topic - Flare in TvZ. Let's try that, if you guys are capable.
There are benefits from units not being able to see, and I want to discuss this, but you guys just want to stick to something that I didn't say. There isn't even a thread about flare in tvz, so I'm trying to help other people who like to try new things, instead of stick to numbers they are told. I gave 1 situation where it could be beneficial (and once its exploited z will just add ovies), but the fact that zerg overlords are abundant and flare is apm/magic-consuming, this strategy will get you killed -flare lurks? not worth it -flare ovies? replaced with more ovies -flare ??? Oh there is nothing else of benefit to flare Maybe you'd be better off rushing nuke and dropping 1 ghost + 7 medics with flare, and flare every ovie in the base. I'd be cute but terrible difficult to pull off and what about the other 3 bases zerg has Flare is very few actions being taken, so the APM discussion about that is completely absurd. Even then, most people on here are no where close to being good enough to worry about the distribution of actions. If you flare one ovie, they aren't going to make another ovie, because it still serves the main purpose: supply. They can just switch them out, but you can just keep flaring them. Eventually, their overlords are just going to be blind. You can stack them, but then they would be vulnerable to valks being stacked and all. If you think about it, the overlord is the main unit of the zerg army. It provides valuable scouting information, while being a detector unit. Gives the supply needed, and can transport. It can even be used a cannon fodder. Flaring them, they are only useful for the supply, transportation and cannon fodder. Ok step 1, flare 200 supply worth of overlords. Step 2, valks to kill stacked overlords. Step 3, lose because blind overlords don't mean shit in TvZ because you don't have and cloaked units, and your medics have no energy. Zerg doesn't use overlords for scouting in ZvT after the first 6 minutes of the game, zergs use lings for that. Your threads are hilarious. Make them use overlords. But your post is hilarious. lol what? Lings can't scout certain areas. Only air units can scout certain vital areas of the map. That's why you usually see certain buildings/units in certain places. Overlords can scout the drop path of a dropship, but if it's blind, it can no longer do that. This means that the drop isn't going to be spotted, making it that much more effective. So make them use overlords to scout. But still, your post is funny.
...If a Terran player expects a drop, he usually has scourge on patrol along the perimeter of his base.
You still haven't addressed the issue of how you're going to send medics into the same areas that you plan on harassing with your wraiths. Wraiths move much faster than medics, and a good portion of Overlords will stay within a zerg base or expo.
Overlords aren't really used to scout Terran bases past the first scouting overlord. Terrans have marines and turrets to shoot down overlords or at least chase them out of useful scouting range. Mutalisks (which are a staple in ZvT) can scout much easier and simultaneously threaten the Terran into making more turrets.
A lot of things sound good in theory if you don't account for cost and time. Time and money are two of the most important parts of life, and Starcraft is no exception. Before you can state the effectiveness of a certain tactic, you have to consider how much time it takes to develop this certain strategy (i.e. builds, timings, considering how zerg might react as well as zerg's own timing), as well as how much of an investment something is (how much gas and minerals does it take to reach that tech, how much energy is needed, and how can you ensure that such an investment is well worth its cost).
Any strategy sounds like a great idea if you don't consider time and cost. Why not use EMP Shockwave on Defilers just before they cast dark swarm? Irradiate will still give Defilers a chance to cast Dark Swarm and Plague, but EMP means they can't cast it right away. So why not use EMP Shockwave and then focus fire the Defiler with tanks and MnM?
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United States3824 Posts
First off that game was fucking awesome, and against By.hero.
Second that build was fucking awesome and was obviously to check out walling vs Zergling rush on outsider.
Third, if there was another game against gogo I sound like a dbag right now.
fourth, that build is going into LP just as soon as I figure out how to put them in there.
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very interesting i might try it.
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Kau
Canada3500 Posts
On November 24 2009 06:39 Gnarly wrote:Show nested quote +On November 24 2009 05:33 Kyo Yuy wrote:On November 24 2009 05:07 Gnarly wrote:On November 24 2009 05:05 sixghost wrote:On November 24 2009 04:59 Gnarly wrote:On November 24 2009 04:54 sixghost wrote:On November 24 2009 04:47 Gnarly wrote:On November 24 2009 04:14 2on2 wrote:On November 24 2009 04:01 Gnarly wrote:
How about this: Let's not just stick to just what some other people keep saying in this thread, but the actual thread topic - Flare in TvZ. Let's try that, if you guys are capable.
There are benefits from units not being able to see, and I want to discuss this, but you guys just want to stick to something that I didn't say. There isn't even a thread about flare in tvz, so I'm trying to help other people who like to try new things, instead of stick to numbers they are told. I gave 1 situation where it could be beneficial (and once its exploited z will just add ovies), but the fact that zerg overlords are abundant and flare is apm/magic-consuming, this strategy will get you killed -flare lurks? not worth it -flare ovies? replaced with more ovies -flare ??? Oh there is nothing else of benefit to flare Maybe you'd be better off rushing nuke and dropping 1 ghost + 7 medics with flare, and flare every ovie in the base. I'd be cute but terrible difficult to pull off and what about the other 3 bases zerg has Flare is very few actions being taken, so the APM discussion about that is completely absurd. Even then, most people on here are no where close to being good enough to worry about the distribution of actions. If you flare one ovie, they aren't going to make another ovie, because it still serves the main purpose: supply. They can just switch them out, but you can just keep flaring them. Eventually, their overlords are just going to be blind. You can stack them, but then they would be vulnerable to valks being stacked and all. If you think about it, the overlord is the main unit of the zerg army. It provides valuable scouting information, while being a detector unit. Gives the supply needed, and can transport. It can even be used a cannon fodder. Flaring them, they are only useful for the supply, transportation and cannon fodder. Ok step 1, flare 200 supply worth of overlords. Step 2, valks to kill stacked overlords. Step 3, lose because blind overlords don't mean shit in TvZ because you don't have and cloaked units, and your medics have no energy. Zerg doesn't use overlords for scouting in ZvT after the first 6 minutes of the game, zergs use lings for that. Your threads are hilarious. Make them use overlords. But your post is hilarious. lol what? Lings can't scout certain areas. Only air units can scout certain vital areas of the map. That's why you usually see certain buildings/units in certain places. Overlords can scout the drop path of a dropship, but if it's blind, it can no longer do that. This means that the drop isn't going to be spotted, making it that much more effective. So make them use overlords to scout. But still, your post is funny. ...If a Terran player expects a drop, he usually has scourge on patrol along the perimeter of his base. You still haven't addressed the issue of how you're going to send medics into the same areas that you plan on harassing with your wraiths. Wraiths move much faster than medics, and a good portion of Overlords will stay within a zerg base or expo. Overlords aren't really used to scout Terran bases past the first scouting overlord. Terrans have marines and turrets to shoot down overlords or at least chase them out of useful scouting range. Mutalisks (which are a staple in ZvT) can scout much easier and simultaneously threaten the Terran into making more turrets. A lot of things sound good in theory if you don't account for cost and time. Time and money are two of the most important parts of life, and Starcraft is no exception. Before you can state the effectiveness of a certain tactic, you have to consider how much time it takes to develop this certain strategy (i.e. builds, timings, considering how zerg might react as well as zerg's own timing), as well as how much of an investment something is (how much gas and minerals does it take to reach that tech, how much energy is needed, and how can you ensure that such an investment is well worth its cost). Any strategy sounds like a great idea if you don't consider time and cost. Why not use EMP Shockwave on Defilers just before they cast dark swarm? Irradiate will still give Defilers a chance to cast Dark Swarm and Plague, but EMP means they can't cast it right away. So why not use EMP Shockwave and then focus fire the Defiler with tanks and MnM? You still haven't understood what I've been saying. I'm not talking about 2port > flare, so I won't be talking about 2port > flare. It just happened to be in the OP as a thought, nothing more, and yet people like you seem to think, "Oh, let's dismiss the context of this sentence, just single out 2port > flare, say that's what he is saying, and then debate on an argument which doesn't even exist." Another thing, I know for a fact that zerg's use their overlords for scouting certain areas, and is actually recommended, instead of just keeping your ovies in your base. Yeah, sure, mutalisks can easily scout the same spot an ovie can, but they aren't gonna chill there, like an ovie would. It's like observers, you make some and put them in a certain area to check out what's going on. From liquipedia: 'If the map allows for it, Overlords should be kept above cliffs or ridges where the opponent cannot see them with a ground army. They can also just be spread around the map and retreated when a ground army is sighted so the Zerg player knows where the opponent's army is. Overlords can also be placed at potential expansion sites to monitor whether the opponent is taking an expansion. The exception to this advice is Zerg vs. Zerg." "versus Terran You must be careful when scouting Terrans with Overlords early game because just two Marines will kill it if given the opportunity. However, overlords can be placed on ridges or in areas where the Terran player cannot snipe them to watch for dropships. " If you blind them, they lose their scouting purpose. Scouting is very valuable, unless I'm just a complete noob. Get it?
So are you going to blind them by flying a building there so you can see them? Or building an air unit so you can see them? Or maybe even use a scan so you can blind them? And if the overlord is over some inaccessible cliff, are you going to build a dropship for the purpose of dropping a medic on that cliff so you can blind the overlord? By then the overlord will see your dropship and it won't be a surprise anymore?
Edit: Any why do all my sentences end in question marks?
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Probably because they're all questions.
On topic, I think it's mostly because you'd lose the mobility of the wraiths when teaming them up with medics. Or to put it better maybe: You want those wraiths mostly for harrass or at least the threat of said harrass- flare doesn't help you there really.
And other than wraith support I see little value in flare. I find even restoration more useful- cleasing SVs of that pesky plaque...
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On November 24 2009 04:01 Gnarly wrote:
How about this: Let's not just stick to just what some other people keep saying in this thread, but the actual thread topic - Flare in TvZ. Let's try that, if you guys are capable.
There are benefits from units not being able to see, and I want to discuss this, but you guys just want to stick to something that I didn't say. There isn't even a thread about flare in tvz, so I'm trying to help other people who like to try new things, instead of stick to numbers they are told.
In your OP, you mentioned 2 port wraith and how flare could be useful there. You said nothing about how flare could be useful in any other situation, so naturally, people are gonna counter any 2port wraith arguments, instead of arguing against random invisible arguments that noone has mentioned
As for blinding scouting overlords to cut off scouting. So what, you're gonna have a dropship filled with medics to go around blinding overlords just for this purpose? How are you going to blind their overlord before they spot your dropship? You basically have to know their overlord is there before your dropship arrives, then blind it (I'm pretty sure dropships don't outrange overlords). How do you plan on achieving this? Com satting the entire map? Com satting your entier dropship path?
As for blinding overlords that spot expoes: How's that gonna work? Overlord is over expo, you blind it, you expo there. The overlord is RIGHT OVER your expo. Unless you chase it away with anti air, but that kinda defeats the purpose of blind
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On November 24 2009 07:08 Gnarly wrote:Show nested quote +On November 24 2009 06:58 Monsen wrote:
Probably because they're all questions.
On topic, I think it's mostly because you'd lose the mobility of the wraiths when teaming them up with medics. Or to put it better maybe: You want those wraiths mostly for harrass or at least the threat of said harrass- flare doesn't help you there really.
And other than wraith support I see little value in flare. I find even restoration more useful- cleasing SVs of that pesky plaque... You're off topic. Quit discussing wraiths and medics being together. I'm not, and I'm the OP, so quit derailing this thread. I don't know why you guys just don't get it.
What are you on about.
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On November 24 2009 07:08 Gnarly wrote:Show nested quote +On November 24 2009 06:58 Monsen wrote:
Probably because they're all questions.
On topic, I think it's mostly because you'd lose the mobility of the wraiths when teaming them up with medics. Or to put it better maybe: You want those wraiths mostly for harrass or at least the threat of said harrass- flare doesn't help you there really.
And other than wraith support I see little value in flare. I find even restoration more useful- cleasing SVs of that pesky plaque... You're off topic. Quit discussing wraiths and medics being together. I'm not, and I'm the OP, so quit derailing this thread. I don't know why you guys just don't get it.
BECAUSE WITHOUT WRAITHS THERE IS NO POINT IN USING BLIND, GET THE POINT ALREADY
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Look, if you're close enough to blind an overlord with a medic, why not just kill it with marines?
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On November 24 2009 07:16 ZERG_RUSSIAN wrote:Show nested quote +On November 24 2009 07:08 Gnarly wrote:On November 24 2009 06:58 Monsen wrote:
Probably because they're all questions.
On topic, I think it's mostly because you'd lose the mobility of the wraiths when teaming them up with medics. Or to put it better maybe: You want those wraiths mostly for harrass or at least the threat of said harrass- flare doesn't help you there really.
And other than wraith support I see little value in flare. I find even restoration more useful- cleasing SVs of that pesky plaque... You're off topic. Quit discussing wraiths and medics being together. I'm not, and I'm the OP, so quit derailing this thread. I don't know why you guys just don't get it. BECAUSE WITHOUT WRAITHS THERE IS NO POINT IN USING BLIND, GET THE POINT ALREADY
ghosts >_>
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When was the last time you saw a ghost in ZvT?
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And seriously? By the time you get ghosts you have way too many actions to think about to be even trying to blind overlords.
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the only way that i could maybe see flare being useful in zvt is if you were to flare lurkers in an SK terran style. This of course is not taking into account: zerglings, scourge, muta give vison anyway- science vessles coming out soon... i have no idea of the timings, or if this could even be useful.
maybe you could try it if there was only 2/3 lurks up a cliff guarding the 3rd base. you could scan flare, and then walk right in. but if there was drones, overlord, or zerglings giving vision that would fail too.
im not hopeful.
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EPT
