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with scouts already being too overpriced//too long to train for people to think about buying them, they solidify themselves as being on the unusable side by requiring an additional 500 minerals, 400 gas, and ~3 minutes 30 seconds to get speed (300//200 for fleet beacon with 60 seconds, 200/200 for gravatic thrusters or w/e with ~2:30 of research time)
with all of these requirements, the only good they can do for you is countering heavy air fleets in late game, should you have a booming economy to afford them. even then, people would much rather go for goons/templar to counter air.
what adjustment would it take for people to start welcoming scouts as competitive tools of protoss? they are mutamicroable, but do 1 less damage to ground then mutas. in my opinion, if build time were reduced to 60 seconds rather 80, and if gravatic thrusters already came with them when they are built, that would make them more tempting to use. even more so if costs of scout were cut ~10%-30%
but then again protoss are already strong whores as it is right now, they do not need fast air units that are muta microable imo, but it sure would be fun
any thoughs on this? if you could persuade blizzard to do something about scouts what would you have them do? cut costs? build time? make them already come with speed? all 3? any thoughs on balance between races should blizzard change scouts and give protoss a mobile, over-armored, muta microable air threat?
edit: finding ways//the right unit for protoss to stack scouts with is another story
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They would need:
-More powerful ground attack. 12 would do. Right now you spend a fortune that can't do any damage.
-Scout comes pre-upgraded with speed. Those slow birdies can't even run for their lives.
-Air attack counts as a single 28 damage hit rather than 2 times 14. It makes the scout much more powerful versus heavily armoured fliers.
With all of this, scouts could be very valuable in small numbers, countering drops and harassment.
EDIT:
Would this make toss imba? Not necessarily. Every strategy has its drawbacks, in this case price. If these changes were to be implemented and scout were used, players would just learn to deal with them. The only sense in which this gives an advantage to protoss is that the opponent would have a larger number of strategies to prepare against.
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Ask ForGG about scouts...I suppose if for somereason a protoss teched in such a way...they could use it to stop an early/midgame contain by the terran (i dont quite think they would come out in time to stop a 2factory push, but if they did they would be semi-viable in that case)...
Really, if they were to become useable, the first step would be to make them less expensive, or invalidate the usage of corsairs (ie, making a fleet beacon required or something).
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scouts will never be massed or stacked. Sorry. Just not needed.
But, and early scout as apposed to corsair can cause some disturbances, so I think it's possible for it to be viable.
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They're perfectly fine right now. They fulfill their purpose, when one scout rushes a lower level player.
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My first impression of this thread is that it would be great place to try some of the skills outlined by the trolling guide.
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Without bad scouts, how would Protoss players humiliate Terran players lategame?
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I think having a humiliation weapon is good enough. If every unit were perfectly in balance you couldn't say "look how great I am, I can't beat you with queens/scouts/ghosts"
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My friend zerg is not confident in muta micro at all, so he usually tends to go for lurkers in ZvP. So I think there's no need for a corsair, because scouts can kill ovies faster. Corsairs are just needed because they are fast and kill mutas very well, right?
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On June 04 2009 10:14 Crimson)S(hadow wrote:
edit: finding ways//the right unit for protoss to stack scouts with is another story
Uh, it's not hard. They do it with sairs already. You can easily just go behind your mineral line, and manner pylon a probe in the back to get stuck.
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On June 04 2009 10:47 RoieTRS wrote:
My friend zerg is not confident in muta micro at all, so he usually tends to go for lurkers in ZvP. So I think there's no need for a corsair, because scouts can kill ovies faster. Corsairs are just needed because they are fast and kill mutas very well, right?
Corsairs are used to scout... scouts suck at... scouting. Ironic huh? Killing ovies is a secondary role of the sair. Scouting tech is the main.
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If they were improved in any way they'd be too powerful IMO. Ever been scout rushed TvP? it can be a real bitch.
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And we were just talking about scout rushing noobs... lol
Anyway, what is the build for this scout rush? I've never heard or seen it before.
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CA10828 Posts
5-gas mass scout after wall-in on bgh is useful enough for me.
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On June 04 2009 10:50 FabledIntegral wrote:Show nested quote +On June 04 2009 10:14 Crimson)S(hadow wrote:
edit: finding ways//the right unit for protoss to stack scouts with is another story Uh, it's not hard. They do it with sairs already. You can easily just go behind your mineral line, and manner pylon a probe in the back to get stuck.
Hell, just pick a Zealot or Dragoon that's in the middle of a pack of units and can't move. Usually this won't be a big problem during the part of the game when you'd be stacking Corsairs, I would think.
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 Hwasin in his prime could not defeat the 4-gate powerscout. Are you better than Hwasin in his prime?
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Corsairs have a natural armor of 1. Scouts have a natural armor of 0. Faster build time means that sairs are far more useful in pvz for scouting, and their splash damage makes them a much better unit for dealing with mutas and the penchant many zergs have for stacking overlords on top of each other causes 12 sairs to kill OLs just as fast or faster than 12 scouts. In addition, scourge. 12 sairs will take out 400 scourge with no micro. Same can't be said for 12 scouts.
If scouts were improved, they'd probably be used pvt as a 1 gate tech rush, sairs are better all around for pvz. For pvp hiding the fact that you're going scouts, and the earlyness of dragoons makes it a questionable tactic. This is probably why the only serious build order involving scouts is for pvt (the stove). And if they were significantly improved, it would make pvp the same as zvz. Anyways, scouts also take up 3 supply and aren't really any better than a single interceptor of a carrier vs ground as of right now, but they really do serve a purpose right now, it's just very very niche. (If you see your opponent already has 4 or 5 carriers, you can't really catch up that way, but you can build a dozen or so scouts to augment your ground force.Same with battlecruisers. There's a bisu v much game where much goes 1 base carriers, and bisu uses scouts.
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Bosnia-Herzegovina1437 Posts
Well, scout is very valuable to me as it is right now. Why:
When I want to get C- easily I do a 1-scout rush into 4 corsair vs zerg, the scout usually kills like 3 drones, sets him back, I run in with army , gg
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protoss is too imba, I like scouts as they are now
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On June 04 2009 10:36 SoulMarine wrote:
scouts will never be massed or stacked. Sorry. Just not needed.
But, and early scout as apposed to corsair can cause some disturbances, so I think it's possible for it to be viable.
Stacked speed scouts is the best thing in the world vs Zerg. I use it all the time. W/E I get an advbantage PvZ i follow it with speed scouts 80% of the time and it is just straight up deadly. 1 hit kill overlords, as fast as mutas and scourge and can run around zerg throughout the entire game.
I have hundreds of games with scouts vs Z (top koreans and top foreigners) and they are absolutely awesome.
Here is a game of me vs GoRush where I kill him with scouts.
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=68913
This is from back when I was starting to experiment with Scouts. Honestly they are an amazing unit and dont need to be changed at all. People just need to have the balls to invest in them at the proper time.
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EPT
