with scouts already being too overpriced//too long to train for people to think about buying them, they solidify themselves as being on the unusable side by requiring an additional 500 minerals, 400 gas, and ~3 minutes 30 seconds to get speed (300//200 for fleet beacon with 60 seconds, 200/200 for gravatic thrusters or w/e with ~2:30 of research time)
with all of these requirements, the only good they can do for you is countering heavy air fleets in late game, should you have a booming economy to afford them. even then, people would much rather go for goons/templar to counter air.
what adjustment would it take for people to start welcoming scouts as competitive tools of protoss? they are mutamicroable, but do 1 less damage to ground then mutas. in my opinion, if build time were reduced to 60 seconds rather 80, and if gravatic thrusters already came with them when they are built, that would make them more tempting to use. even more so if costs of scout were cut ~10%-30%
but then again protoss are already strong whores as it is right now, they do not need fast air units that are muta microable imo, but it sure would be fun
any thoughs on this? if you could persuade blizzard to do something about scouts what would you have them do? cut costs? build time? make them already come with speed? all 3? any thoughs on balance between races should blizzard change scouts and give protoss a mobile, over-armored, muta microable air threat?
edit: finding ways//the right unit for protoss to stack scouts with is another story
-More powerful ground attack. 12 would do. Right now you spend a fortune that can't do any damage. -Scout comes pre-upgraded with speed. Those slow birdies can't even run for their lives. -Air attack counts as a single 28 damage hit rather than 2 times 14. It makes the scout much more powerful versus heavily armoured fliers.
With all of this, scouts could be very valuable in small numbers, countering drops and harassment.
EDIT: Would this make toss imba? Not necessarily. Every strategy has its drawbacks, in this case price. If these changes were to be implemented and scout were used, players would just learn to deal with them. The only sense in which this gives an advantage to protoss is that the opponent would have a larger number of strategies to prepare against.
Ask ForGG about scouts...I suppose if for somereason a protoss teched in such a way...they could use it to stop an early/midgame contain by the terran (i dont quite think they would come out in time to stop a 2factory push, but if they did they would be semi-viable in that case)... Really, if they were to become useable, the first step would be to make them less expensive, or invalidate the usage of corsairs (ie, making a fleet beacon required or something).
I think having a humiliation weapon is good enough. If every unit were perfectly in balance you couldn't say "look how great I am, I can't beat you with queens/scouts/ghosts"
My friend zerg is not confident in muta micro at all, so he usually tends to go for lurkers in ZvP. So I think there's no need for a corsair, because scouts can kill ovies faster. Corsairs are just needed because they are fast and kill mutas very well, right?
On June 04 2009 10:47 RoieTRS wrote: My friend zerg is not confident in muta micro at all, so he usually tends to go for lurkers in ZvP. So I think there's no need for a corsair, because scouts can kill ovies faster. Corsairs are just needed because they are fast and kill mutas very well, right?
Corsairs are used to scout... scouts suck at... scouting. Ironic huh? Killing ovies is a secondary role of the sair. Scouting tech is the main.
edit: finding ways//the right unit for protoss to stack scouts with is another story
Uh, it's not hard. They do it with sairs already. You can easily just go behind your mineral line, and manner pylon a probe in the back to get stuck.
Hell, just pick a Zealot or Dragoon that's in the middle of a pack of units and can't move. Usually this won't be a big problem during the part of the game when you'd be stacking Corsairs, I would think.
Corsairs have a natural armor of 1. Scouts have a natural armor of 0. Faster build time means that sairs are far more useful in pvz for scouting, and their splash damage makes them a much better unit for dealing with mutas and the penchant many zergs have for stacking overlords on top of each other causes 12 sairs to kill OLs just as fast or faster than 12 scouts. In addition, scourge. 12 sairs will take out 400 scourge with no micro. Same can't be said for 12 scouts.
If scouts were improved, they'd probably be used pvt as a 1 gate tech rush, sairs are better all around for pvz. For pvp hiding the fact that you're going scouts, and the earlyness of dragoons makes it a questionable tactic. This is probably why the only serious build order involving scouts is for pvt (the stove). And if they were significantly improved, it would make pvp the same as zvz. Anyways, scouts also take up 3 supply and aren't really any better than a single interceptor of a carrier vs ground as of right now, but they really do serve a purpose right now, it's just very very niche. (If you see your opponent already has 4 or 5 carriers, you can't really catch up that way, but you can build a dozen or so scouts to augment your ground force.Same with battlecruisers. There's a bisu v much game where much goes 1 base carriers, and bisu uses scouts.
On June 04 2009 10:36 SoulMarine wrote: scouts will never be massed or stacked. Sorry. Just not needed.
But, and early scout as apposed to corsair can cause some disturbances, so I think it's possible for it to be viable.
Stacked speed scouts is the best thing in the world vs Zerg. I use it all the time. W/E I get an advbantage PvZ i follow it with speed scouts 80% of the time and it is just straight up deadly. 1 hit kill overlords, as fast as mutas and scourge and can run around zerg throughout the entire game.
I have hundreds of games with scouts vs Z (top koreans and top foreigners) and they are absolutely awesome.
Here is a game of me vs GoRush where I kill him with scouts.
This is from back when I was starting to experiment with Scouts. Honestly they are an amazing unit and dont need to be changed at all. People just need to have the balls to invest in them at the proper time.
On June 04 2009 10:36 SoulMarine wrote: scouts will never be massed or stacked. Sorry. Just not needed.
But, and early scout as apposed to corsair can cause some disturbances, so I think it's possible for it to be viable.
Stacked speed scouts is the best thing in the world vs Zerg. I use it all the time. W/E I get an advbantage PvZ i follow it with speed scouts 80% of the time and it is just straight up deadly. 1 hit kill overlords, as fast as mutas and scourge and can run around zerg throughout the entire game.
I have hundreds of games with scouts vs Z (top koreans and top foreigners) and they are absolutely awesome.
Here is a game of me vs GoRush where I kill him with scouts.
This is from back when I was starting to experiment with Scouts. Honestly they are an amazing unit and dont need to be changed at all. People just need to have the balls to invest in them at the proper time.
are there any replays or pro-game examples of legitimate Scout harass/use? What is the aforementioned 4 gate Scout? When bisu humiliated Hwasin with them?
On June 04 2009 12:46 MiniRoman wrote: 10/12 vs 9 pool, kill expo hatch and force main sunkens into SCOUTS! Rapes. Try it kids.
If you're up 2 gate + cycore and killed zerg expo hatch and play safe you've pretty much won, why screw with it and spend so much money getting scouts when they can get owned by hydras near sunkens and/or scourge if you screw up micro and let zerg back in the game?
too much fantasy by people again. i Believe if u make it come wit eitther speed or u reduce the buildtime n etc. it make it unbalance against Z and sometimes T early on. with mobile and speed + air atk. it is even more stronger then sair vs lord
I agree that changing the scout would result in imbalance. Stacked scouts are basically monsters.. Really fun to do if your ahead against T/Z.
A terran normally has a few flying buildings, a dropship hanging around, maybe a vessel or two and then you come in and harass him soo bad.
Unfortunately it requires quite an advantage for obvious reasons. Anyways Scouts have never been considered for a buff and it's because they have killer potential now and it would be to harsh having them start off with killer power instead
On June 04 2009 12:46 MiniRoman wrote: 10/12 vs 9 pool, kill expo hatch and force main sunkens into SCOUTS! Rapes. Try it kids.
If you're up 2 gate + cycore and killed zerg expo hatch and play safe you've pretty much won, why screw with it and spend so much money getting scouts when they can get owned by hydras near sunkens and/or scourge if you screw up micro and let zerg back in the game?
It's gay as fuck attacking 1 base sunken zerg. Making scouts is actually viable with your economic lead. Scout vs OL+Hydra is a lot better than sair vs OL+Hydra and will be the real game clincher. Protects you vs any spire faggotry and seals the game for you. ~_~ It's actually good.
One thing about scouts vs ground that everyone should keep in mind is that they have a longer range than mutas do against ground...at least one full unit (not sure, though). I've fooled around clumping them like with mutas...and they're a bit haphazard to use until you get used to it due to that extra range they have over mutas. That balances out the one less damage a bit, I think.
EDIT Oh, and while we're bringing up high level games, Stork got a scout in a PvZ on Neo Requiem once...
I forget who, but it turned into a really close fight where both were at risk, and stork managed to get in a position where he was knocking at the zerg's front door. He got a scout and flew it behind the nat minerals of the zerg preventing him from mining from there with his drones.
On June 04 2009 13:55 PH wrote: Oh, and while we're bringing up high level games, Stork got a scout in a PvZ on Neo Requiem once...
I forget who, but it turned into a really close fight where both were at risk, and stork managed to get in a position where he was knocking at the zerg's front door. He got a scout and flew it behind the nat minerals of the zerg preventing him from mining from there with his drones.
There was a game in the first season of GOM on colloseum where a toss beats a terran with scouts. The toss goes for a really fast arbiter but the terran does an aggressive push. Due to a lack of gates the toss is forced to build scouts. The scouts win the game. I think it was in ro64.
On June 04 2009 14:26 Mastermind wrote: There was a game in the first season of GOM on colloseum where a toss beats a terran with scouts. The toss goes for a really fast arbiter but the terran does an aggressive push. Due to a lack of gates the toss is forced to build scouts. The scouts win the game. I think it was in ro64.
It was Kal vs. fOrGG on Colosseum in the Arena MSL quarters.
On June 04 2009 12:20 Ozarugold wrote: Personally, the only thing I never liked about Scouts were their names. Seriously, Scouts? They don't even scout...
Yeah I always thought that corsair and scout should have their names switched >.> Corsair sounds so badass
I think Stork opened with a scout instead of a corsair on Neo Reqiuem in GOM Season 2 and owned. Young did the same thing later in proleague but got owned
I think you'd have to be very careful not to make them too good. Speed by default maybe and that's it, prehaps build time down. I don't think the stats for it should be adjusted.
In order for scouts to be worth it I think they first and foremost needs to be produced faster. As it is it almost takes as long to mass up a suprise fleet of scouts as it does to make a decent carrier army. This is just wrong. Also, you sometimes see protosses make an early scout instead of a corsair, but apart from being a lot more expensive it also means that their air unit will come out a LOT slower. Reducing the build time significantly, making it slightly longer than a corsair's, would solve many of its shortcomings and make it a lot more viable.
Also the cost of getting the speed upgrade is rediculous. I think the only way to solve this issue is by moving the upgrade to another building, like the cycore or even the stargate. 200/200 is a fair price imo, since it makes scouts so much better in so many ways.
Scouts themselves are also very expensive, but I think it's ok actually, since they really do kick ass against every air unit, apart from mutas and BCs.
On June 04 2009 16:40 benjammin wrote: i've got nothing to add here other than that kal vs forgg game with scouts is absolutely one of the best games i have ever seen
that entire series was incredible, seemed to be the catalyst that drove forgg to become a superaggressive unorthodox terran monster that he was during his msl run
its a real shame he has reverted back to his old self because he played some beautiful starcraft back then
On June 04 2009 16:40 benjammin wrote: i've got nothing to add here other than that kal vs forgg game with scouts is absolutely one of the best games i have ever seen
Is there a youtube link of that or something perhaps?
On June 04 2009 16:40 benjammin wrote: i've got nothing to add here other than that kal vs forgg game with scouts is absolutely one of the best games i have ever seen
Is there a youtube link of that or something perhaps?
Yeah thats a good point about the location of the speed upgrade too. Instead of making it pre-researched putting in the cycore would be a much better idea, which is where you'd expect it in the first place anyway.
On June 04 2009 14:26 Mastermind wrote: There was a game in the first season of GOM on colloseum where a toss beats a terran with scouts. The toss goes for a really fast arbiter but the terran does an aggressive push. Due to a lack of gates the toss is forced to build scouts. The scouts win the game. I think it was in ro64.
It was Kal vs. fOrGG on Colosseum in the Arena MSL quarters.
The game actually happened twice, when forgg did the exact same strategy both in game 1 and game 5 (both on colosseum), and kal did the exact same opening (fast arbiter). Kal build a scout in both games, and won with it in game 1 (but lost in game 5).
I'm really liking the idea of moving the upgrade into the cybernetics core. I never thought about doing something like that, and I do agree that stacked scouts are imba (but expensive as fuck lol).
The main drawback is that Scouts are only useful in PvZ or in a rare one base island PvP vs carriers. As for other races, terran has so many good counters and even if you damage him early your eco will suffer too much if you play mass scouts. In PvP, you just build a bunch of sairs and it's all over.
For this reasons I think boosting scout armor would be for the best. Lowering the speed cost wouldn't be bad eigher.
In the Kal vs Forgg game, I notice how it took years for a scout to kill a tank. Even if it's 2+ scouts. For the price that much, I don't think it's cost effective.
Scouts are just weak, expensive, and ineffective... and honestly it has more to do with the way scouts move and attack than anything else. They're painfully slow. Whenever I'm using Scouts, I feel like I'm flying around a fragile observer with a gun. They seem to have so much HP, but in reality their short range, slow attack speed, and loooooong acceleration time make them into walking targets. I try to fight with them and find myself WTFing when 1 or 2 of my scouts die seemingly spontaneously, because the time for them to slow down, shoot the ground, then speed up and leave again is like 6 seconds, whereas for mutas it's under 1. I'd rather have 12 mutas than 12 scouts any day. :/
Devourers and valkyries suck too (just a little less, so they actually get used in strange builds, but rarely of course), for many of the same reasons: - too expensive - too fragile (even though they have a lot of HP, they die so fast to storm or irradiate coupled with standard unit fire it's not even funny) - too slow (without upgrade which makes them even more costly) - too high-level unit, i.e. comes late - specialized for 1 role (anti air) but when they come into play there's lots of better anti air available already (including standard unit fire and abilities like storm or plague), and this better anti air will also kill this expensive air-to-air unit easily
Yes, scouts can be useful under few very situational circumstances, so rare that we have really only seen very few games where they were used, much less put to good use. Scouts are so weak that you can't really incorporate them into any strategy simply because other units will do the job just aswell, cost less and be more versatile at the same time.
Here's the game between ForGG and KaL. Will you please stop talking about it now?
I think you're approaching changing the Scout in the wrong way. Buffing it potentially does make it too powerful (and you're just creating a Protoss Muta or overlapping with Corsair), it'd be more interesting to think of a proper niche role for it, its current niche is almost non-existent. Perhaps it could be moved to Robotics so it doesn't overlap so much with Corsair, moving the upgrades to the Support Bay. It'd be available as a counter to a Wraith that's there to intercept your Shuttle and would make Shuttles riskier in PvP.
On June 04 2009 10:36 SoulMarine wrote: scouts will never be massed or stacked. Sorry. Just not needed.
But, and early scout as apposed to corsair can cause some disturbances, so I think it's possible for it to be viable.
Stacked speed scouts is the best thing in the world vs Zerg. I use it all the time. W/E I get an advbantage PvZ i follow it with speed scouts 80% of the time and it is just straight up deadly. 1 hit kill overlords, as fast as mutas and scourge and can run around zerg throughout the entire game.
I have hundreds of games with scouts vs Z (top koreans and top foreigners) and they are absolutely awesome.
Here is a game of me vs GoRush where I kill him with scouts.
This is from back when I was starting to experiment with Scouts. Honestly they are an amazing unit and dont need to be changed at all. People just need to have the balls to invest in them at the proper time.
Yep. I do this as well. I also often make a scout before a corsair cuz you can almost always get more overlord kills that way, like when Z is only starting his spire when my stargate is already up, or when Z did early cheese and is way behind in tech.
Personally, I am suprised we do not see more Scouts in mid-to-late game PvT. In a regular PvT match, a Protoss will put down Stargates for the purpose of producing Arbiters anyway. So why not produce an unupgraded Scout or two for the purpose of damaging or even destroying Science Vessels? The Terran will often not have a lot of (non-static) anti-air and Scouts can take a lot of punishment. Plus, 28 damage to large air units is nothing to sneeze at. At the very least, it forces the Terran to spend more resources into Goliaths rather then Siege Tanks.
Oh well, I guess it will take a Protoss fantasy for Scouts to see a more regular use (although the question is if such a person will come before SC2 arrives).
On June 05 2009 01:08 prOxi.Beater wrote: Yes, scouts can be useful under few very situational circumstances, so rare that we have really only seen very few games where they were used, much less put to good use. Scouts are so weak that you can't really incorporate them into any strategy simply because other units will do the job just aswell, cost less and be more versatile at the same time.
I don't mind if you make scouts useful, but while you're doing that give queens consume and 3 armor, and switch the mineral and gas costs of the Ghost, then we're square, ok? broodling siegetank/ht for 3 lings, everything ensnared forever, mass lockdown arbiter/observer, cheap disposable nukes, here we come :D
Having humiliation-tier units is really not a bad thing :s.
Although, Scouts are good to counter Carriers on cliffy maps and they're already /actually useful/ in that situation. It's just not a situation that happens very often.
If any change should be made, it's that scouts get an upgrade that gives them detection. They'd be like armored observers, which would be useful in all mus (against spore defense, mine+turret, etc)
On June 05 2009 01:08 prOxi.Beater wrote: Yes, scouts can be useful under few very situational circumstances, so rare that we have really only seen very few games where they were used, much less put to good use. Scouts are so weak that you can't really incorporate them into any strategy simply because other units will do the job just aswell, cost less and be more versatile at the same time.
That G5 replay is a joke right? Either that or the replay I downloaded is broken The other player is AFK for at least 5 minutes(I'm not done yet) with less than 50 units(all workers with 4 lings). He coulda won it right there with probes
On June 07 2009 19:22 funcraft wrote: That G5 replay is a joke right? Either that or the replay I downloaded is broken The other player is AFK for at least 5 minutes(I'm not done yet) with less than 50 units(all workers with 4 lings). He coulda won it right there with probes
On June 07 2009 19:22 funcraft wrote: That G5 replay is a joke right? Either that or the replay I downloaded is broken The other player is AFK for at least 5 minutes(I'm not done yet) with less than 50 units(all workers with 4 lings). He coulda won it right there with probes
It's an old replay. You would have run it on a different patch of starcraft to the one it was recorded on, so it bugs and nothing happens. You can get a patcher from the iccup website to watch it. Edit: Beaten.
EPT
![[image loading]](http://img520.imageshack.us/img520/7821/bisu.png)
