EPToverall, I think that Zergs need to figure out a way to get their third gas faster. 2 gas vs 2 gas on most of these maps isn't working out very well for them.
What happened to ZvP? - Page 2
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GHOSTCLAW
United States17042 Posts
overall, I think that Zergs need to figure out a way to get their third gas faster. 2 gas vs 2 gas on most of these maps isn't working out very well for them. | ||
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Velr
Switzerland10691 Posts
*Beating* is something diffrent. Just look at Bisus ZvP Record for the last half year... http://www.teamliquid.net/tlpd/details.php?type=players&id=125&part=games&vs=Z&league=any&map=any&from_year=2008&from_month=6&from_day=1&to_year=2008&to_month=12&to_day=31&action=Update 76.47% win O_o... Luxury took one and the other two guys capable of winning against him are Calm and July :p. No Zerg has positive stats againt Bisu (at least recently)... Oh... and Calm and Bisu really brawl each other alot ^^. | ||
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raga4ka
Bulgaria5679 Posts
I think zergs should stay on 3 bases pump nonstop army so that they can keep map control , and then take their fourth base . Rushing to a fourth base is somewhat stupid if you don't have the army to protect your bases or to deny his third and fourth ones . Thats how July plays and doesn't give much openings for a protoss to exploit . But some people think that 2 base toss vs 3 base zerg is a bad situation from the start and In fact it is not protoss has the pressure on of being starved if they can't take a third base . You don't need a fourth base to keep a toss contained most of the times, but it is safer to be on four and more bases to solidify your advantage or if you want to finish him off . It is risky to try and kill a protoss when you have around equal strong armys when you are an 3 bases , because if you mess up one fight and its going down hill from there if you can't keep map control . | ||
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samachking
Bahrain4949 Posts
On December 11 2008 21:57 raga4ka wrote: You obviously heard wrong .... He may have taken games from him , but Tushin >>> protoss my friend with Bisu or without him . Even TLPD laughs at your statement  Tushin 3 vs Bisu 2 http://www.teamliquid.net/tlpd/details.php?type=players&id=117&part=games&vs=125&league=any&map=any&from_year=2003&from_month=4&from_day=1&to_year=2008&to_month=12&to_day=6&action=Update A weak win an Medusa doesn't change the fact that he received one of the bigger rapes ZvP on Chupung-Ryeong ( god i hate this map's name ) . I wrote that not because i wanted to start some kind of war with protosses , but because his style is very strong and more zergs should model their ZvP from him and not Savior or Jaedong excample . I responded to the comments about Savior and Jaedong above ... Tempest 2-0'd July out of the previous season's offline qualifiers. July got knocked out of the last OSL by 2 Tosses. July's ZvP isnt all that great, he just had a run against players with weak PvZ in his OSL, Jaedong could have taken that osl with that kind of run easily. | ||
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raga4ka
Bulgaria5679 Posts
On December 11 2008 22:33 samachking wrote: Tempest 2-0'd July out of the previous season's offline qualifiers. July got knocked out of the last OSL by 2 Tosses. July's ZvP isnt all that great, he just had a run against players with weak PvZ in his OSL, Jaedong could have taken that osl with that kind of run easily. Whats the freaking point everyone losses and wins vs eny race ??? I just wanted to point out that nowadays it is better for zergs to model their play from July , because his ZvP has always stayed strong . And i wrote that to responce to mIsUZu's wrong statement that Bisu in fact doesn't rape July and no toss has . July lost to Bul_T on byzantium even , but that doesn't change the fact that if July can kill the best PvZers he wouldn't have a problem with either Tempest or Bul_T most of the times . | ||
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monstar123
United States516 Posts
On December 11 2008 22:33 samachking wrote: Tempest 2-0'd July out of the previous season's MST. July got knocked out of the last OSL by 2 Tosses. July's ZvP isnt all that great, he just had a run against players with weak PvZ in his OSL, Jaedong could have taken that osl with that kind of run easily. That's true instead of 1 protoss if there would be 1 terran(even Pepe(z-zone)) or zerg(anyone even 50% zvz user) he could lose it. It's obvious. | ||
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Guybrush
Spain4744 Posts
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raga4ka
Bulgaria5679 Posts
On December 11 2008 22:56 Guybrush wrote: Saying "Model your ZvP after July" is like saying "Model your ZvZ after Jaedong". You can model all you want but it's their crazy mechanics that allow them to play like that. Their play cant be mimicked with success by worse players like the case was with Saviors 3 hatch muta ZvT or his overall ZvP-play pre-Bisu. I'm not saing that they should be over agressive , but they should focus on map control earlier when protoss are on 2 basses with smaller army . I wrote that above if you got to that actually the part of 2 base toss vs 3 base zerg middle to late game . | ||
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Shikyo
Finland33997 Posts
On December 11 2008 21:57 raga4ka wrote: You obviously heard wrong .... He may have taken games from him , but Tushin >>> protoss my friend with Bisu or without him . Even TLPD laughs at your statement Tushin 3 vs Bisu 2 http://www.teamliquid.net/tlpd/details.php?type=players&id=117&part=games&vs=125&league=any&map=any&from_year=2003&from_month=4&from_day=1&to_year=2008&to_month=12&to_day=6&action=Update A weak win an Medusa doesn't change the fact that he received one of the bigger rapes ZvP on Chupung-Ryeong ( god i hate this map's name ) . I wrote that not because i wanted to start some kind of war with protosses , but because his style is very strong and more zergs should model their ZvP from him and not Savior or Jaedong excample . I responded to the comments about Savior and Jaedong above ... Nah, it was just mass hydra. Calling that "one of the biggest rapes" is silly, especially since Bisu was slumping back then. Yes, Savior's ZvP was only like 80% before he played with Bisu. That's soo bad. | ||
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raga4ka
Bulgaria5679 Posts
On December 11 2008 23:05 Shikyo wrote: Nah, it was just mass hydra. Calling that "one of the biggest rapes" is silly, especially since Bisu was slumping back then. Yes, Savior's ZvP was only like 80% before he played with Bisu. That's soo bad. That doesn't change the fact that Savior is haveing a worse time vs Bisu and tosses that use "revolutionized PvZ" then Julyzerg ... Imo even in a slump July still remains strong in ZvP . Again the point of this is that July is more effective versus new generation and all kinds of protosses then most of the zergs even while not at his best . And i don't think that you understand how hard it was for eny zerg to win with just mass hidras in that situation . At some point July and Bisu were an equal bases and July just managed to take his fourth and it wasn't online very quick . To say that it was "just mass hidras " Edit: I didn't said "biggest" a said bigger there is a diffrence between those words . I think that the overall more successful ZvP should be copyd and not the most dominant ZvP in a period of time . And i won't reply enymore to enyone who reads one sentences from a comment and hurrys to bash on it .... I explained my thoughts so there . | ||
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Shikyo
Finland33997 Posts
And there actually isn't that much difference between "one of the bigger" and "one of the biggest" because of the way you use it. "One of the bigger" doesn't really sound correct to my ears anyway, and it's wrong in any case. | ||
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abakben
United States308 Posts
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mIsUZu
New Zealand528 Posts
I was half joking when I said Bisu raped July but both facts and current status shows July is in no form, in both zvp and zvt.. Sure he may be agressive zvp user and is very dangerous zerg for protosses but thats like me saying yea sure nada is the best progamer in the past, now and future no mattter what the results show currently.. Like someone mentioned, he 0:2 against tempest and got knocked out from the upcoming MSL and his zvt has never been on form season.. Also, Bisu?? Hmmm last I heard hes on like 10++ winning streak on proleagues and won MSL recently and is currently having the best results from the 6 invincible tosses at the moment.. I've rambled on but my point is once a great progamer doesn't mean hes the god of certain mu, it's the current result and stats that backs up how good he is/isn't.. | ||
Ver
United States2186 Posts
On December 11 2008 23:12 raga4ka wrote: That doesn't change the fact that Savior is haveing a worse time vs Bisu and tosses that use "revolutionized PvZ" then Julyzerg ... Imo even in a slump July still remains strong in ZvP . Again the point of this is that July is more effective versus new generation and all kinds of protosses then most of the zergs even while not at his best . Edit: I didn't said "biggest" a said bigger there is a diffrence between those words . I think that the overall more successful ZvP should be copyd and not the most dominant ZvP in a period of time . And i won't reply enymore to enyone who reads one sentences from a comment and hurrys to bash on it .... I explained my thoughts so there .Clueless fanboys are the worst. Guess what Savior went in '07 in between his series against Bisu in GOM 1 MSL and Ever '07 OSL versus the best protosses below Bisu? 17-3 (85%) Yeah some wins were against Backho and company but at the same time the vast majority were against the A level Protosses. Anyways listen to Plexa. | ||
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raga4ka
Bulgaria5679 Posts
On December 11 2008 23:21 abakben wrote: As far as I know most of July wins against Bisu were all in hydra attacks when Bisu was in big slump. I do not think July can win a long straight game against nonslumping Bisu. As far as i know going all in hidras from 3 - 4and more bases ( watch the game on Chupung ) it is called Sauron hidra then all in .... All in meens if it fails you are practicly dead , you are not dead if you fail an attack from 3 - 4 bases , because you can macro up and July never slips on macro together with his incredible micro thats what makes July the Tushin . | ||
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abakben
United States308 Posts
On December 11 2008 23:35 raga4ka wrote: As far as i know going all in hidras from 3 - 4and more bases ( watch the game on Chupung ) it is called Sauron hidra then all in .... All in meens if it fails you are practicly dead , you are not dead if you fail an attack from 3 - 4 bases , because you can macro up and July never slips on macro together with his incredible micro thats what makes July the Tushin . I am still behind my claim. July is no match for nonslumping Bisu. | ||
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raga4ka
Bulgaria5679 Posts
On December 11 2008 23:35 Ver wrote: Clueless fanboys are the worst. Guess what Savior went in '07 in between his series against Bisu in GOM 1 MSL and Ever '07 OSL versus the best protosses below Bisu? 17-3 (85%) Yeah some wins were against Backho and company but at the same time the vast majority were against the A level Protosses. Anyways listen to Plexa. Yes i'm a fan of July but not because he is Julyzerg but because of his ZvP style , that doesn't meen that i don't love Savior or Jaedong . Hey listen i haven't said that Savior was/is bad at ZvP i'm not saing that July is the better in ZvP then Savior was . But is July still a good player and better NOW then Savior in this MU yup i would say so no problem . I don't care if Savior went 212132312312 - 0 before if he can't beet Bisu and a protoss now means that July's style is overall more succssesful then Savior's when protoss have updated their skills . Whats with all the offensive comments in this thread i don't get it ??? | ||
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samachking
Bahrain4949 Posts
On December 11 2008 23:35 Ver wrote: Clueless fanboys are the worst. Guess what Savior went in '07 in between his series against Bisu in GOM 1 MSL and Ever '07 OSL versus the best protosses below Bisu? 17-3 (85%) Yeah some wins were against Backho and company but at the same time the vast majority were against the A level Protosses. Anyways listen to Plexa. Infact Savior went 12 winstreak vs P right after he lost to Bisu in Gom, thats the highest streak vP of all time. Savior didnt slump but Bisu was just plain better than Savior and his style countered savior. DT/Sair prevents triple expands with ease and puts lots of pressure on zerg to get detection and ovies evreywhere and a counter to sairs while all this defence is spread out on 4 bases hence negating the triple expand. | ||
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Shikyo
Finland33997 Posts
On December 11 2008 23:35 Ver wrote: Clueless fanboys are the worst. Guess what Savior went in '07 in between his series against Bisu in GOM 1 MSL and Ever '07 OSL versus the best protosses below Bisu? 17-3 (85%) Yeah some wins were against Backho and company but at the same time the vast majority were against the A level Protosses. Anyways listen to Plexa. Ah that's right, Savior hit his ZvP elo peak after his loss to Bisu in the MSL finals. (Which is the third highest peak ever, only behind iloveoov's TvZ (when his record was 27-0), and Jaedong's ZvZ.) But what exactly is this modern PvZ you're talking about? | ||
Plexa
Aotearoa39261 Posts
On December 11 2008 23:54 samachking wrote: Precisely right. Once other protoss became accustomed with the bisu style and the maps change Savior started to lose all around. Infact Savior went 12 winstreak vs P right after he lost to Bisu in Gom, thats the highest streak vP of all time. Savior didnt slump but Bisu was just plain better than Savior and his style countered savior. DT/Sair prevents triple expands with ease and puts lots of pressure on zerg to get detection and ovies evreywhere and a counter to sairs while all this defence is spread out on 4 bases hence negating the triple expand. Let's talk about Savior vs July. Both are excellent ZvP players. Their styles are slightly different obviously, July used to favor slightly more aggressive opening (e.g. this http://www.teamliquid.net/tlpd/games/1251_July_vs_Pusan ). However more recently he's been mixing cheesier builds with high macro play vs Protoss. This is more like saviors style (to the best of my recollection), which focused more on economy and whatnot. He played against the FE with more bases, not 3hatch all-ins. Nowadays the correct way to play vs FE is to be more aggressive with expos like Savior -a style which july has adopted and is excelling at using. Oh btw, for the guy who quoted July vs Tempest as an example - clue up buddy Tempest also beat Jaedong sooooo... | ||
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