I was half joking when I said Bisu raped July but both facts and current status shows July is in no form, in both zvp and zvt..
Sure he may be agressive zvp user and is very dangerous zerg for protosses but thats like me saying yea sure nada is the best progamer in the past, now and future no mattter what the results show currently..
Like someone mentioned, he 0:2 against tempest and got knocked out from the upcoming MSL and his zvt has never been on form season..
Also, Bisu?? Hmmm last I heard hes on like 10++ winning streak on proleagues and won MSL recently and is currently having the best results from the 6 invincible tosses at the moment..
I've rambled on but my point is once a great progamer doesn't mean hes the god of certain mu, it's the current result and stats that backs up how good he is/isn't..
I was half joking myself , but it seems that most of the people don't get it. I really couldn't care less of who is better July , Savior , Jaedong or Bisu there are all amazing players and can be put one over one an other in some aspects . Of course that Savior was the most dominant in that time . Does it even matter in this thread i just wanted to comment on + 1 attack instead of carapace thread and gave an excample with July . But comments on my post started to get more and more ignorant that i had to reply on them .
A weak win an Medusa doesn't change the fact that he received one of the bigger rapes ZvP on Chupung-Ryeong ( god i hate this map's name ) .
I wrote that not because i wanted to start some kind of war with protosses , but because his style is very strong and more zergs should model their ZvP from him and not Savior or Jaedong excample . I responded to the comments about Savior and Jaedong above ...
Nah, it was just mass hydra. Calling that "one of the biggest rapes" is silly, especially since Bisu was slumping back then. Yes, Savior's ZvP was only like 80% before he played with Bisu. That's soo bad.
That doesn't change the fact that Savior is haveing a worse time vs Bisu and tosses that use "revolutionized PvZ" then Julyzerg ... Imo even in a slump July still remains strong in ZvP . Again the point of this is that July is more effective versus new generation and all kinds of protosses then most of the zergs even while not at his best .
Edit: I didn't said "biggest" a said bigger there is a diffrence between those words . I think that the overall more successful ZvP should be copyd and not the most dominant ZvP in a period of time .
And i won't reply enymore to enyone who reads one sentences from a comment and hurrys to bash on it .... I explained my thoughts so there .
Clueless fanboys are the worst.
Guess what Savior went in '07 in between his series against Bisu in GOM 1 MSL and Ever '07 OSL versus the best protosses below Bisu?
17-3 (85%)
Yeah some wins were against Backho and company but at the same time the vast majority were against the A level Protosses.
Anyways listen to Plexa.
Infact Savior went 12 winstreak vs P right after he lost to Bisu in Gom, thats the highest streak vP of all time. Savior didnt slump but Bisu was just plain better than Savior and his style countered savior. DT/Sair prevents triple expands with ease and puts lots of pressure on zerg to get detection and ovies evreywhere and a counter to sairs while all this defence is spread out on 4 bases hence negating the triple expand.
Precisely right. Once other protoss became accustomed with the bisu style and the maps change Savior started to lose all around.
Let's talk about Savior vs July. Both are excellent ZvP players. Their styles are slightly different obviously, July used to favor slightly more aggressive opening (e.g. this http://www.teamliquid.net/tlpd/games/1251_July_vs_Pusan ). However more recently he's been mixing cheesier builds with high macro play vs Protoss. This is more like saviors style (to the best of my recollection), which focused more on economy and whatnot. He played against the FE with more bases, not 3hatch all-ins. Nowadays the correct way to play vs FE is to be more aggressive with expos like Savior -a style which july has adopted and is excelling at using.
Oh btw, for the guy who quoted July vs Tempest as an example - clue up buddy Tempest also beat Jaedong sooooo...
I was the one that quoted July vs Tempest, and I know that Tempest beat jaedong, but this is a statement that every Zerg right now is playing like shit, even July. And July is no better than Jaedong or Lux. Zergs are clueless right now and need to find better builds to adapt to the maps.
A weak win an Medusa doesn't change the fact that he received one of the bigger rapes ZvP on Chupung-Ryeong ( god i hate this map's name ) .
I wrote that not because i wanted to start some kind of war with protosses , but because his style is very strong and more zergs should model their ZvP from him and not Savior or Jaedong excample . I responded to the comments about Savior and Jaedong above ...
Nah, it was just mass hydra. Calling that "one of the biggest rapes" is silly, especially since Bisu was slumping back then. Yes, Savior's ZvP was only like 80% before he played with Bisu. That's soo bad.
That doesn't change the fact that Savior is haveing a worse time vs Bisu and tosses that use "revolutionized PvZ" then Julyzerg ... Imo even in a slump July still remains strong in ZvP . Again the point of this is that July is more effective versus new generation and all kinds of protosses then most of the zergs even while not at his best .
Edit: I didn't said "biggest" a said bigger there is a diffrence between those words . I think that the overall more successful ZvP should be copyd and not the most dominant ZvP in a period of time .
And i won't reply enymore to enyone who reads one sentences from a comment and hurrys to bash on it .... I explained my thoughts so there .
Clueless fanboys are the worst.
Guess what Savior went in '07 in between his series against Bisu in GOM 1 MSL and Ever '07 OSL versus the best protosses below Bisu?
17-3 (85
Yeah some wins were against Backho and company but at the same time the vast majority were against the A level Protosses.
Anyways listen to Plexa.
Infact Savior went 12 winstreak vs P right after he lost to Bisu in Gom, thats the highest streak vP of all time. Savior didnt slump but Bisu was just plain better than Savior and his style countered savior. DT/Sair prevents triple expands with ease and puts lots of pressure on zerg to get detection and ovies evreywhere and a counter to sairs while all this defence is spread out on 4 bases hence negating the triple expand.
Precisely right. Once other protoss became accustomed with the bisu style and the maps change Savior started to lose all around.
Let's talk about Savior vs July. Both are excellent ZvP players. Their styles are slightly different obviously, July used to favor slightly more aggressive opening (e.g. this http://www.teamliquid.net/tlpd/games/1251_July_vs_Pusan ). However more recently he's been mixing cheesier builds with high macro play vs Protoss. This is more like saviors style (to the best of my recollection), which focused more on economy and whatnot. He played against the FE with more bases, not 3hatch all-ins. Nowadays the correct way to play vs FE is to be more aggressive with expos like Savior -a style which july has adopted and is excelling at using.
Oh btw, for the guy who quoted July vs Tempest as an example - clue up buddy Tempest also beat Jaedong sooooo...
I don't know if July adapted Savior style or other zergs ( Jaedong ) have adapted both's style witch is being more aggressive with economy . July not always focused an early aggression rather then early economy i remember his games vs Reach and Rock for example . Normaly if July doesn't do an all - in he looks to get an early , but not big economy advantage over a protoss ( which is 1 base ) and then he starts to pump nonstop and between his presure to the toss he gets more bases . Sometimes he takes all of the map and goes sauron , sometimes he kills them with just 1 more base then the protoss has .
On December 11 2008 22:23 raga4ka wrote: I think zergs should stay on 3 bases pump nonstop army so that they can keep map control , and then take their fourth base . Rushing to a fourth base is somewhat stupid if you don't have the army to protect your bases or to deny his third and fourth ones . Thats how July plays and doesn't give much openings for a protoss to exploit . But some people think that 2 base toss vs 3 base zerg is a bad situation from the start and In fact it is not protoss has the pressure on of being starved if they can't take a third base . You don't need a fourth base to keep a toss contained most of the times, but it is safer to be on four and more bases to solidify your advantage or if you want to finish him off . It is risky to try and kill a protoss when you have around equal strong armys when you are an 3 bases , because if you mess up one fight and its going down hill from there if you can't keep map control .
I agree! When zerg stays in 3 bases and just mases the army it's very hard for toss to expand, and there's certain timing when zerg has to get the forth. It should happen when the zerg has enough army to control the map, and the prostoss ball is still quite small. It has to come before toss manages to get 3-rd. Zerg always has to keep control on the map and not allow the protoss have more than 2 mining bases at any time.
A weak win an Medusa doesn't change the fact that he received one of the bigger rapes ZvP on Chupung-Ryeong ( god i hate this map's name ) .
I wrote that not because i wanted to start some kind of war with protosses , but because his style is very strong and more zergs should model their ZvP from him and not Savior or Jaedong excample . I responded to the comments about Savior and Jaedong above ...
Nah, it was just mass hydra. Calling that "one of the biggest rapes" is silly, especially since Bisu was slumping back then. Yes, Savior's ZvP was only like 80% before he played with Bisu. That's soo bad.
That doesn't change the fact that Savior is haveing a worse time vs Bisu and tosses that use "revolutionized PvZ" then Julyzerg ... Imo even in a slump July still remains strong in ZvP . Again the point of this is that July is more effective versus new generation and all kinds of protosses then most of the zergs even while not at his best .
Edit: I didn't said "biggest" a said bigger there is a diffrence between those words . I think that the overall more successful ZvP should be copyd and not the most dominant ZvP in a period of time .
And i won't reply enymore to enyone who reads one sentences from a comment and hurrys to bash on it .... I explained my thoughts so there .
Clueless fanboys are the worst.
Guess what Savior went in '07 in between his series against Bisu in GOM 1 MSL and Ever '07 OSL versus the best protosses below Bisu?
17-3 (85%)
Yeah some wins were against Backho and company but at the same time the vast majority were against the A level Protosses.
Anyways listen to Plexa.
Infact Savior went 12 winstreak vs P right after he lost to Bisu in Gom, thats the highest streak vP of all time. Savior didnt slump but Bisu was just plain better than Savior and his style countered savior. DT/Sair prevents triple expands with ease and puts lots of pressure on zerg to get detection and ovies evreywhere and a counter to sairs while all this defence is spread out on 4 bases hence negating the triple expand.
Precisely right. Once other protoss became accustomed with the bisu style and the maps change Savior started to lose all around.
Let's talk about Savior vs July. Both are excellent ZvP players. Their styles are slightly different obviously, July used to favor slightly more aggressive opening (e.g. this http://www.teamliquid.net/tlpd/games/1251_July_vs_Pusan ). However more recently he's been mixing cheesier builds with high macro play vs Protoss. This is more like saviors style (to the best of my recollection), which focused more on economy and whatnot. He played against the FE with more bases, not 3hatch all-ins. Nowadays the correct way to play vs FE is to be more aggressive with expos like Savior -a style which july has adopted and is excelling at using.
Oh btw, for the guy who quoted July vs Tempest as an example - clue up buddy Tempest also beat Jaedong sooooo...
I was the one that quoted July vs Tempest, and I know that Tempest beat jaedong, but this is a statement that every Zerg right now is playing like shit, even July. And July is no better than Jaedong or Lux. Zergs are clueless right now and need to find better builds to adapt to the maps.
July isn't a better player then Jaedong or Savior , i was talking about how July's ZvP almost didn't feel the "revolutionized PvZ" from Bisu or other tosses . But it seemed like when i responded to a replay that said that "Bisu raped July " , a replay based an no facts and nothing except maybe i don't know fanboism towards Bisu or that he is a toss with good PvZ in general . I don't think that July is as clueless as other zergs his knowledge in this MU is superior to the normal zerg together with his mechanics . An more of the balanced maps he will do fine except Byzantinum . And you can't compare July's ZvP to Luxurys or whatever . Jaedong's can most definitely compare but he is in a slump and not just his ZvP .
A weak win an Medusa doesn't change the fact that he received one of the bigger rapes ZvP on Chupung-Ryeong ( god i hate this map's name ) .
I wrote that not because i wanted to start some kind of war with protosses , but because his style is very strong and more zergs should model their ZvP from him and not Savior or Jaedong excample . I responded to the comments about Savior and Jaedong above ...
Nah, it was just mass hydra. Calling that "one of the biggest rapes" is silly, especially since Bisu was slumping back then. Yes, Savior's ZvP was only like 80% before he played with Bisu. That's soo bad.
That doesn't change the fact that Savior is haveing a worse time vs Bisu and tosses that use "revolutionized PvZ" then Julyzerg ... Imo even in a slump July still remains strong in ZvP . Again the point of this is that July is more effective versus new generation and all kinds of protosses then most of the zergs even while not at his best .
Edit: I didn't said "biggest" a said bigger there is a diffrence between those words . I think that the overall more successful ZvP should be copyd and not the most dominant ZvP in a period of time .
And i won't reply enymore to enyone who reads one sentences from a comment and hurrys to bash on it .... I explained my thoughts so there .
Clueless fanboys are the worst.
Guess what Savior went in '07 in between his series against Bisu in GOM 1 MSL and Ever '07 OSL versus the best protosses below Bisu?
17-3 (85
Yeah some wins were against Backho and company but at the same time the vast majority were against the A level Protosses.
Anyways listen to Plexa.
Infact Savior went 12 winstreak vs P right after he lost to Bisu in Gom, thats the highest streak vP of all time. Savior didnt slump but Bisu was just plain better than Savior and his style countered savior. DT/Sair prevents triple expands with ease and puts lots of pressure on zerg to get detection and ovies evreywhere and a counter to sairs while all this defence is spread out on 4 bases hence negating the triple expand.
Precisely right. Once other protoss became accustomed with the bisu style and the maps change Savior started to lose all around.
Let's talk about Savior vs July. Both are excellent ZvP players. Their styles are slightly different obviously, July used to favor slightly more aggressive opening (e.g. this http://www.teamliquid.net/tlpd/games/1251_July_vs_Pusan ). However more recently he's been mixing cheesier builds with high macro play vs Protoss. This is more like saviors style (to the best of my recollection), which focused more on economy and whatnot. He played against the FE with more bases, not 3hatch all-ins. Nowadays the correct way to play vs FE is to be more aggressive with expos like Savior -a style which july has adopted and is excelling at using.
Oh btw, for the guy who quoted July vs Tempest as an example - clue up buddy Tempest also beat Jaedong sooooo...
I don't know if July adapted Savior style or other zergs ( Jaedong ) have adapted both's style witch is being more aggressive with economy . July not always focused an early aggression rather then early economy i remember his games vs Reach and Rock for example . Normaly if July doesn't do an all - in he looks to get an early , but not big economy advantage over a protoss ( which is 1 base ) and then he starts to pump nonstop and between his presure to the toss he gets more bases . Sometimes he takes all of the map and goes sauron , sometimes he kills them with just 1 more base then the protoss has .
oh yea july's always been famous for his sauron zerg haha
A weak win an Medusa doesn't change the fact that he received one of the bigger rapes ZvP on Chupung-Ryeong ( god i hate this map's name ) .
I wrote that not because i wanted to start some kind of war with protosses , but because his style is very strong and more zergs should model their ZvP from him and not Savior or Jaedong excample . I responded to the comments about Savior and Jaedong above ...
Nah, it was just mass hydra. Calling that "one of the biggest rapes" is silly, especially since Bisu was slumping back then. Yes, Savior's ZvP was only like 80% before he played with Bisu. That's soo bad.
That doesn't change the fact that Savior is haveing a worse time vs Bisu and tosses that use "revolutionized PvZ" then Julyzerg ... Imo even in a slump July still remains strong in ZvP . Again the point of this is that July is more effective versus new generation and all kinds of protosses then most of the zergs even while not at his best .
Edit: I didn't said "biggest" a said bigger there is a diffrence between those words . I think that the overall more successful ZvP should be copyd and not the most dominant ZvP in a period of time .
And i won't reply enymore to enyone who reads one sentences from a comment and hurrys to bash on it .... I explained my thoughts so there .
Clueless fanboys are the worst.
Guess what Savior went in '07 in between his series against Bisu in GOM 1 MSL and Ever '07 OSL versus the best protosses below Bisu?
17-3 (85
Yeah some wins were against Backho and company but at the same time the vast majority were against the A level Protosses.
Anyways listen to Plexa.
Infact Savior went 12 winstreak vs P right after he lost to Bisu in Gom, thats the highest streak vP of all time. Savior didnt slump but Bisu was just plain better than Savior and his style countered savior. DT/Sair prevents triple expands with ease and puts lots of pressure on zerg to get detection and ovies evreywhere and a counter to sairs while all this defence is spread out on 4 bases hence negating the triple expand.
Precisely right. Once other protoss became accustomed with the bisu style and the maps change Savior started to lose all around.
Let's talk about Savior vs July. Both are excellent ZvP players. Their styles are slightly different obviously, July used to favor slightly more aggressive opening (e.g. this http://www.teamliquid.net/tlpd/games/1251_July_vs_Pusan ). However more recently he's been mixing cheesier builds with high macro play vs Protoss. This is more like saviors style (to the best of my recollection), which focused more on economy and whatnot. He played against the FE with more bases, not 3hatch all-ins. Nowadays the correct way to play vs FE is to be more aggressive with expos like Savior -a style which july has adopted and is excelling at using.
Oh btw, for the guy who quoted July vs Tempest as an example - clue up buddy Tempest also beat Jaedong sooooo...
I don't know if July adapted Savior style or other zergs ( Jaedong ) have adapted both's style witch is being more aggressive with economy . July not always focused an early aggression rather then early economy i remember his games vs Reach and Rock for example . Normaly if July doesn't do an all - in he looks to get an early , but not big economy advantage over a protoss ( which is 1 base ) and then he starts to pump nonstop and between his presure to the toss he gets more bases . Sometimes he takes all of the map and goes sauron , sometimes he kills them with just 1 more base then the protoss has .
oh yea july's always been famous for his sauron zerg haha
I actually got in to proffesional starcraft by watching his games from Gillete OSL and after that i thought that he invented the Sauron zerg ( did he invented it because i don't know much about the history of starcraft before him ? ) .
On December 11 2008 18:22 Plexa wrote: Zergs are too scared to take their 4th after Bisu's Dt/Sair abuse which controlled excessive expos. However, this forces zergs to fight 3 base vs 2 base which overall sucks (as its in reality 2 gas vs 2 gas).
TAKE YOUR GODDAM 4TH EXPANSION FASTER ZERG
actually, zerg getting a 4th base was never common in zvp. the counter to FE has always been to work with 3 bases, get enough hatcheries/drones/units (delay protoss third base as much as possible) and take the fourth when you can. you make it sound like zergs always took a 4th base but bisu changed it, when in fact it was always a risk and not many attempted it. zergs usually get punished by being greedy and taking a fourth, regardless of what the protoss chooses to do.
About 80% of the time, July has amazing PvZ. But every once in a while he decides to do some sort of all-in move and usually fails with it (such as vs Bisu on Medusa). I think recently July has created some sort of mini-revolution in PvZ. I could be completely wrong because I've only followed pro SC for about a year, but until recently it seemed to me that Zs just sort of either went for a all-in type build (such as 3 hat hydra cannon break) or tried to just "weather the storm" and defend their 4th or 5th base from the protoss until hive tech, and then not really be aggressive until then. The build July used vs Bisu on Chupung (and sorta used vs much on medusa, although much's cannon rush set him too far behind) still amazes me.
July was still very economic and took a 4th base, but really made bisu play right into his game. He went spire-den opening (spire about 30 seconds ahead of den) and at 1st only made like 6 scourge to fight off sairs. Then he made some mutas and (seemingly) made bisu morph a couple archons (and maybe build more sairs than he wanted too, I don't know what his plans were for sairs) to fight off the mutas. In the meanwhile July was massing a whole lot of hydras and upgading them as well as taking his 4th. His push was met with a lot less storms than usual, and then mixing in lurks soaked up even more storms (I'm not sure if bisu just forgot to get a robo or if he just couldn't afford it because of having to make a bigger army to fight off July). The result was basically a counter push with 1/1 hydras and some lurkers. Even if July didn't manage to kill Bisu right then and there he would of been well on par with him economically(assuming he continued to saturate his 4th, the observer never showed it).
July might of lost to Tempest in the past, but over the Ever OSL he has clearly vastly improved his ZvP and totally trashed almost every Protoss he has faced this year (5 loses: 2 to bisu, 1 to much's awesome cannon rush, 1 to backho and 1 to byzantium). Just look at July's last game vs Tempest:
He killed Tempest's 1st archon with mutaling ffs. July has been playing a somewhat reversed midgame ZvP, where Zerg take their 4th and defend it through aggression, instead of the Protoss taking their 3rd during a push.
(I could be totally wrong about some of my overall PvZ assumptions, but this is how I see it)
The way July played that game was indeed amazing, and "Bisu slump" "hydra allin" are indeed lame excuses. Chances are you didnt even see the game if you make such claims. Any protoss regardless of slump would've had to play excellent to win that game.
I still stand by that very few or none Zerg would have been able to execute the play July showed there though, by mimicking his BO/execution.
On December 12 2008 02:02 Guybrush wrote: Me and Ideas have the same ideas. Great post.
The way July played that game was indeed amazing, and "Bisu slump" "hydra allin" are indeed lame excuses. Chances are you didnt even see the game if you make such claims. Any protoss regardless of slump would've had to play excellent to win that game.
I still stand by that very few or none Zerg would have been able to execute the play July showed there though, by mimicking his BO/execution.
I agree in that match mimicking JulyZerg was impossible , i just responded with it to the guy who said that Bisu rapes July . But i think zergs should play more aggresive and somewhat mimic Julyzerg , obviously they can't execute like him , but it will help to get a fourth base and prevent protoss from geting their early third .
I can't imagine why can't zergs protect their bases vs zealot/archon timing pushes when lurkers come faster then archons or about the same time if both rushed . You can also mix in mutas or scourges with it and it doesn't really mess up the timings , but you will just have to update lurkers first then the other hidra updates .You can even protect it with some sunkens and hidras . I think that zergs are playing too greedy with all those hatcherys and they don't pump enough hidras or whatever on time .
I truly believe its a scouting issue as crazy as it sounds. because zvp is becoming so timing-based in critical portions, if the zerg would know exactly what thhe toss was doing, he could go that path before wasting time building certain upgrades.
the second option is to prevent a toss's third with 5 hatch ling/hydra lair delayed. then playing defensive after ur first attack. it can allow ur 4th.
On December 11 2008 18:22 Plexa wrote: Zergs are too scared to take their 4th after Bisu's Dt/Sair abuse which controlled excessive expos. However, this forces zergs to fight 3 base vs 2 base which overall sucks (as its in reality 2 gas vs 2 gas).
TAKE YOUR GODDAM 4TH EXPANSION FASTER ZERG
actually, zerg getting a 4th base was never common in zvp. the counter to FE has always been to work with 3 bases, get enough hatcheries/drones/units (delay protoss third base as much as possible) and take the fourth when you can. you make it sound like zergs always took a 4th base but bisu changed it, when in fact it was always a risk and not many attempted it. zergs usually get punished by being greedy and taking a fourth, regardless of what the protoss chooses to do.
God what are you talking about? Savior used to take his fourth with his fourth Hatchery in many pre-Bisu ZvPs...
On December 11 2008 18:22 Plexa wrote: Zergs are too scared to take their 4th after Bisu's Dt/Sair abuse which controlled excessive expos. However, this forces zergs to fight 3 base vs 2 base which overall sucks (as its in reality 2 gas vs 2 gas).
TAKE YOUR GODDAM 4TH EXPANSION FASTER ZERG
actually, zerg getting a 4th base was never common in zvp. the counter to FE has always been to work with 3 bases, get enough hatcheries/drones/units (delay protoss third base as much as possible) and take the fourth when you can. you make it sound like zergs always took a 4th base but bisu changed it, when in fact it was always a risk and not many attempted it. zergs usually get punished by being greedy and taking a fourth, regardless of what the protoss chooses to do.
God what are you talking about? Savior used to take his fourth with his fourth Hatchery in many pre-Bisu ZvPs...
I personally remember Savior using this strategy @ zodiac and some bluestorm games after bisu games. Perhaps I should watch his old games too. (The so popular mass muta and sunken :D)
On December 11 2008 18:22 Plexa wrote: Zergs are too scared to take their 4th after Bisu's Dt/Sair abuse which controlled excessive expos. However, this forces zergs to fight 3 base vs 2 base which overall sucks (as its in reality 2 gas vs 2 gas).
TAKE YOUR GODDAM 4TH EXPANSION FASTER ZERG
actually, zerg getting a 4th base was never common in zvp. the counter to FE has always been to work with 3 bases, get enough hatcheries/drones/units (delay protoss third base as much as possible) and take the fourth when you can. you make it sound like zergs always took a 4th base but bisu changed it, when in fact it was always a risk and not many attempted it. zergs usually get punished by being greedy and taking a fourth, regardless of what the protoss chooses to do.
God what are you talking about? Savior used to take his fourth with his fourth Hatchery in many pre-Bisu ZvPs...
Back in the days Savior did whatever he fucking wanted because he was TheMaestro Actually i think protoss were pretty clueless back then . Far more clueless then zergs are now i can't really explain it thought .
On December 12 2008 02:18 tKd_ wrote: I truly believe its a scouting issue as crazy as it sounds. because zvp is becoming so timing-based in critical portions, if the zerg would know exactly what thhe toss was doing, he could go that path before wasting time building certain upgrades.
the second option is to prevent a toss's third with 5 hatch ling/hydra lair delayed. then playing defensive after ur first attack. it can allow ur 4th.
In 2008 WCG Jaedong vs Best, game 3, Jaedong burrowed zerglings in a semi-circle all around Best's portion of the map, so that he would know exactly what Best sent out, where, and when. He won that game and spent it defending almost entirely when he wasn't denying Best's much-needed expansion. Best even secured an island expansion and still lost. He gave up right after a failed attack... Jaedong never penetrated his base that game, he starved him to death.
(Later, JD also burrowed some hydralisks and baited Best's corsairs into chasing an overlord right on top of them, netting two kills from below. Burrow seems like the most under-rated, under-used skill in professional play.)
To emphasize that you still have to play well against a professional Protoss, I will add that other critical plays that Jaedong made include a couple of shuttle/reaver picks.
On December 11 2008 18:22 Plexa wrote: Zergs are too scared to take their 4th after Bisu's Dt/Sair abuse which controlled excessive expos. However, this forces zergs to fight 3 base vs 2 base which overall sucks (as its in reality 2 gas vs 2 gas).
TAKE YOUR GODDAM 4TH EXPANSION FASTER ZERG
actually, zerg getting a 4th base was never common in zvp. the counter to FE has always been to work with 3 bases, get enough hatcheries/drones/units (delay protoss third base as much as possible) and take the fourth when you can. you make it sound like zergs always took a 4th base but bisu changed it, when in fact it was always a risk and not many attempted it. zergs usually get punished by being greedy and taking a fourth, regardless of what the protoss chooses to do.
God what are you talking about? Savior used to take his fourth with his fourth Hatchery in many pre-Bisu ZvPs...
Back in the days Savior did whatever he fucking wanted because he was TheMaestro ....
Yea, I sort of remember that. It didnt matter what savior did, he always won. For example, he did 3 hatches before pool vs terran, 12 pool 11 hatch vs terran, mass muta vs toss, double / triple expos vs toss fe... he didnt use only one build, he did different builds and he won anyway. So different from now, whatever he tries, he will lose anyway, irony -.-
ideas: july didn't do anything new, what he did is the comon 3 hatch lair into spire into 5hatch hydra that just about every zerg does pvz. difference was that he microed well enough and bisu somehow managed not to start his robotics facility for 1 minute even when july morphed damaged hydras into lurkers while in battle... That was what made it seem like such a rape. Bisu had no obs and retreating dragoonarmies throught narrow passways are generally dragoonarmies with not much time left to live. Untill that moment july was fighting 3bases to 3 and was at no adventage at all, rather the opposite as a zerg in that situation needs to balance between army and economy perfectly and 1 good storm means you've lost a battle. Nothing was revolutionary with what july did, its a common build that started to get popular on bluestorm or katrina?(might be wrong on this one) The build is used in almost all pvzs by zergs with the exception of building mutas instead of just scourge, which didnt help july much, bisu just fucked up and made it seem awesome. I've listed games where the zealarchonbuild plays against this zerg build earlier so I wont do that again, but belive me they are using the exact same build as july is, and you don't get enough forces with it to stop protss third going up, neither do you get an adventage in army. Its not a great build as you are IMO giving protoss a free third and have a hard time taking your own forth, but as every progamer uses it I assume its the best there is.
On December 11 2008 18:22 Plexa wrote: Zergs are too scared to take their 4th after Bisu's Dt/Sair abuse which controlled excessive expos. However, this forces zergs to fight 3 base vs 2 base which overall sucks (as its in reality 2 gas vs 2 gas).
TAKE YOUR GODDAM 4TH EXPANSION FASTER ZERG
actually, zerg getting a 4th base was never common in zvp. the counter to FE has always been to work with 3 bases, get enough hatcheries/drones/units (delay protoss third base as much as possible) and take the fourth when you can. you make it sound like zergs always took a 4th base but bisu changed it, when in fact it was always a risk and not many attempted it. zergs usually get punished by being greedy and taking a fourth, regardless of what the protoss chooses to do.
i agree that zergs need to not take their fourth too quickly, but what do you say to this?
ggplay does exactly everything you say:
3 bases, doesn't overexpand to 4 enough hatcheries :5 protoss at 2 bases
the only problem is that ggplay does not have enough units to fend off the speedlot rush. in other words: at lair tech, ggplay invested heavily into capital goods (hatcheries, evo chamber, den and spire) and sacrificed unit count in the process. Yet even with such an aggressive investment in infrastructure, he tempered it a bit by staying at 3 bases, hoping that the close proximity of his three bases will fend off any early attack when the macro benefits of his investment choice kicked in.
the OP is right in asking "what's happened to zvp". in simple words, zvp is changing. P is going to be far more aggressive now at two bases, and Z is going to have to find a way to match this.
On December 11 2008 18:22 Plexa wrote: Zergs are too scared to take their 4th after Bisu's Dt/Sair abuse which controlled excessive expos. However, this forces zergs to fight 3 base vs 2 base which overall sucks (as its in reality 2 gas vs 2 gas).
TAKE YOUR GODDAM 4TH EXPANSION FASTER ZERG
actually, zerg getting a 4th base was never common in zvp. the counter to FE has always been to work with 3 bases, get enough hatcheries/drones/units (delay protoss third base as much as possible) and take the fourth when you can. you make it sound like zergs always took a 4th base but bisu changed it, when in fact it was always a risk and not many attempted it. zergs usually get punished by being greedy and taking a fourth, regardless of what the protoss chooses to do.
God what are you talking about? Savior used to take his fourth with his fourth Hatchery in many pre-Bisu ZvPs...
Back in the days Savior did whatever he fucking wanted because he was TheMaestro Actually i think protoss were pretty clueless back then . Far more clueless then zergs are now i can't really explain it thought .
Not really clueless, but it just seems like zerg had way too many adaptable builds. The key that bisu brought was the much much earlier second gas, which allows you to get tech, and that ever important first sair that lets you scout what type of lair tech zerg is going.
Savior when he was dominant showed the adaptability of zerg by going 3 hat before pool when he wanted, all the way to the other side of the scale (3 hat ling). Too bad he can't exert his will on the game anymore.
If anyone could be that dominant today, it could be july, at least with his ZvP. He is willing on any stage to pull off everything in the book- from a 3 hat hydra to a 5 pool to a sauron zerg game.
EPT
