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On December 12 2008 02:18 tKd_ wrote:
I truly believe its a scouting issue as crazy as it sounds. because zvp is becoming so timing-based in critical portions, if the zerg would know exactly what thhe toss was doing, he could go that path before wasting time building certain upgrades.
the second option is to prevent a toss's third with 5 hatch ling/hydra lair delayed. then playing defensive after ur first attack. it can allow ur 4th.
yeah as simple as it sounds, with the growing number of ways to PvZ, zerg really needs to scout better. in the game i posted above, if ggplay had identified the build he could have countered with a lurker build instead of getting a spire and a den uselessly
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Zergs don't have the teching correctly to deal with HT/archons. Hydra/ling doesn't stop that zeal/archon push. The lurker contain gets eaten by storms at that early of a stage, mutas can't stop their cannon/HT defense expo strategy.
I think 2 base timing pushes might be the best strategy to stop the FE, but a longer term safer route hasn't really been established. I'm imagining that hydra/lurker is the correct unit combination, but zergs don't have the income to get a big enough hydra/lurker army by the push timing to stop it. Even if you go super greedy and the toss can't get a scout to see your fourth, I don't think you can drone up then army up in time to stop the push. The scourge/overlord/hydra/lurker contain with a tech to cracks/defilers is probably the best way to stop a toss 3rd-4th toss. Guards won't work effectively against the stargate opener they do. So.. we're left with early FE break or faster defilers to combat the blob that forms and stop toss from getting the gas to archon/goon/ht/obs you down.
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I seem to remember Jaedong doing 4hatch 4base before as well, but I don't remember when. I know he usually played really aggressive off 3 bases on Katrina while taking the 4th (if needed) early, which explains his ridiculous stats on the map.
You know, I think some real studying needs to be done on this topic. I want to say it's the current maps, but I'm not sure that's 100% correct. It seems like JD was getting away with murder on some maps that were also supposed to be bad for ZvP. Mind you, that was after the Bisu and Savior phase, too. Now we have all these random protoss who gained recognition through Katrina coming back to own up the new set of maps, and no Jaedong, July, or Savior to stop them. Not only that, we don't even have the 'consistent but never champion' zergs just to thin the ranks of protoss before eventually losing to a terran.
I just hope someone steps it up. Personally, I think it's most likely that Jaedong or GGPlay does, but we'll see.
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On December 12 2008 03:48 QibingZero wrote:
You know, I think some real studying needs to be done on this topic. I want to say it's the current maps, but I'm not sure that's 100% correct.
It's almost impossible to say what the problem is exactly. It could be maps, it could be P players genuinely being better than the Z players (both in the foreign scene and in Korea), it could be P being genuinely imbalanced and P players finally being good enough with timing and multitasking in order to exploit this, or it could be that Z is genuinely too hard to play so that there's never a solid play like the other 2 races can enjoy all the time - either you adapt *perfectly* and crush your opponent, or you die to timing attack or rush (or at least you're weakened so much that you'll get rolled over later).
Whatever the case... one thing is undeniable: current statistics say that P>Z, and this should not be. There could be one, maybe two Ps being so much better than the rest that he really deserves his position (like Savior was for Zerg in 2006), but with current Protosses it's like 5 or 6 players crammed at the top who are so fucking good that they rape anyone (outside Korea it's the same - just think of JF Nony WhiteRa Cloud), this makes it UNLIKELY that they're all so damn skilled that they deserve to be there, instead I assume they're only there because the maps favor P currently. And not only that, even unknown Protosses are so good that they steal a win from MUCH better players surprisingly often. So yeah, something is most likely wrong, but it's impossible to prove what the cause is.
I'd suggest that Korean map makers design future maps in a non-P friendly way, and then see how it turns out - probably it'll be more balanced again, so more Zs and Ts will be seen again. I mean we even had maps like Monty Hall and Requiem recently (Requiem still current), so obviously it shouldn't be a problem to make a map where Protoss sucks on for a change. Whiners can be ignored if the statistics show an improvement in balance.
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you know what's funny? as for the speedlot archon rush, the most direct counter is ensnare...
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Netherlands4515 Posts
patch 1.16 should have made morphing 2 templars to an archon cost an additional 300 minerals
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On December 12 2008 04:12 d_so wrote:
you know what's funny? as for the speedlot archon rush, the most direct counter is ensnare...
perhaps Chill's dream of professional queen use will finally see the light of day :p
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On December 12 2008 04:17 ret wrote:
patch 1.16 should have made morphing 2 templars to an archon cost an additional 300 minerals
they should lower spawn broodling to 100 mana.
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I've heard a lot about the PvZ speedlot and archon timing push, but can't find any replays where this happens. Could someone shed some light on how this works out and a replay if possible?
I imagine it starts with the standard FE, fast corsairs for harass, then immediately techs to speedlots and archons with citadel and temp archive. Then gogogo after the first archons are warped in?
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On December 12 2008 05:06 EscPlan9 wrote:
I've heard a lot about the PvZ speedlot and archon timing push, but can't find any replays where this happens. Could someone shed some light on how this works out and a replay if possible?
I imagine it starts with the standard FE, fast corsairs for harass, then immediately techs to speedlots and archons with citadel and temp archive. Then gogogo after the first archons are warped in?
look at the previous page.
or look up horang2 vs ggplay @ destination from MST
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I actually read all four pages... I must have missed it. I checked again on the last page and don't see any mention of it. There's a short VOD of a speedlot and 1 archon attacking around 8minutes into the game - that's all I'm really seeing. The archon gets killed quickly and then its just all speedlots from then on. What'd I miss?
I also cannot find any replays of that game (searched here and GosuGamers). I find it much more difficult to learn from VODs than replays if you meant a VOD for it, which I'm sure I can find.
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I just want to note something that was brought up earlier: scouting.
You often see zergs bring an overlord back into the protoss base right around key tech time to see what's going on. The sacrifice is necessary, because protoss can pretty much go in any direction they want once the natural is relatively secure. Seeing a corsair over your base doesn't even mean all that much anymore. There's just so much a protoss can do behind that 2base wall, and the zerg needs every bit of vision they can get (seeing the forge with lings, while seeing the advanced tech with the kamikaze overlord).
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On December 12 2008 05:48 EscPlan9 wrote:
I actually read all four pages... I must have missed it. I checked again on the last page and don't see any mention of it. There's a short VOD of a speedlot and 1 archon attacking around 8minutes into the game - that's all I'm really seeing. The archon gets killed quickly and then its just all speedlots from then on. What'd I miss?
I also cannot find any replays of that game (searched here and GosuGamers). I find it much more difficult to learn from VODs than replays if you meant a VOD for it, which I'm sure I can find.
o sorry, you meant replay. yeah that's just the vod.
as for the action, it doesn't stop there. the zealot just keep coming in... the notable thing about it is the relentlessness of the toss
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Bisu has said in an interview that the "Bisu build" he used against savior was just meant to counter savior's muta heavy playstyle.
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On December 12 2008 04:12 d_so wrote:
you know what's funny? as for the speedlot archon rush, the most direct counter is ensnare...
How can you tech to queens by the time the +1 zealot archon comes
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On December 12 2008 06:20 lgdDante wrote:Show nested quote +On December 12 2008 04:12 d_so wrote:
you know what's funny? as for the speedlot archon rush, the most direct counter is ensnare... How can you tech to queens by the time the +1 zealot archon comes
It is actually about the same timing.
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On December 12 2008 06:20 lgdDante wrote:Show nested quote +On December 12 2008 04:12 d_so wrote:
you know what's funny? as for the speedlot archon rush, the most direct counter is ensnare... How can you tech to queens by the time the +1 zealot archon comes
the first wave of speedlots/templar is not the problem. it's hard to fight off, sure, but it's the reinforcements that are the issue.
so don't get spire, don't get more than 4 hatch. go hydra and queen after lair.
fend off the first of speedlot wave, keep the queens nest intact while having ensnare upgraded. send out the queen and then slow the reinforcements. this should give z time to make units
also, toss won't have speed and +1 simultaneously.
crazy strat, maybe, but it's gotta be better than what zergs are doing now
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I think it's b/c more protoss are going reavers, and containing w/lurks isn't super effective.
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On December 12 2008 06:40 d_so wrote:Show nested quote +On December 12 2008 06:20 lgdDante wrote:On December 12 2008 04:12 d_so wrote:
you know what's funny? as for the speedlot archon rush, the most direct counter is ensnare... How can you tech to queens by the time the +1 zealot archon comes the first wave of speedlots/templar is not the problem. it's hard to fight off, sure, but it's the reinforcements that are the issue. so don't get spire, don't get more than 4 hatch. go hydra and queen after lair. fend off the first of speedlot wave, keep the queens nest intact while having ensnare upgraded. send out the queen and then slow the reinforcements. this should give z time to make units also, toss won't have speed and +1 simultaneously. crazy strat, maybe, but it's gotta be better than what zergs are doing now
seems a little weird
I think the slightly outdated double evo lurk ling build would be better suited to fight this
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On December 11 2008 18:22 Plexa wrote:
Zergs are too scared to take their 4th after Bisu's Dt/Sair abuse which controlled excessive expos. However, this forces zergs to fight 3 base vs 2 base which overall sucks (as its in reality 2 gas vs 2 gas).
TAKE YOUR GODDAM 4TH EXPANSION FASTER ZERG
iono lately i've been seeing lot of balls in moves by the pro zergs taking massive amount of expos... though lot of the times it seems to come back to hurt em...
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EPT
