EPTWhat is happening to ZvP?
Why is +1 range /5 hatch hydra popular nowdays?
Why isn't +1 armor with lurker build used anymore?
Is it because of maps?
What happened to ZvP?
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Too_MuchZerg
Finland2818 Posts
What is happening to ZvP? Why is +1 range /5 hatch hydra popular nowdays? Why isn't +1 armor with lurker build used anymore? Is it because of maps? | ||
Liquid`Drone
Norway28597 Posts
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mIsUZu
New Zealand528 Posts
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Gyabo
United States329 Posts
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zer0das
United States8519 Posts
On December 11 2008 18:00 mIsUZu wrote: Along came Bisu and Best. That's what happened. One of these names does not belong with the other... | ||
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Too_MuchZerg
Finland2818 Posts
On December 11 2008 18:11 Gyabo wrote: I always thought you get +1 range attack, along w/ hydra speed and range, if you're going for a hydra timing push. Or get +1 carapace w/ lurkers if you're planning to defend and expand (assuming the toss is not going sair/reaver). Are zergs going +1 range without the intention of attacking nowadays? I always though that this 5 hatch hydra build with 1 range is counter for +1 zealot/archon push. | ||
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Fontong
United States6454 Posts
On December 11 2008 18:00 mIsUZu wrote: Along came Bisu and Zergbait. That's what happened. Wait wut? fixed | ||
Plexa
Aotearoa39261 Posts
TAKE YOUR GODDAM 4TH EXPANSION FASTER ZERG | ||
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PH
United States6173 Posts
On December 11 2008 18:11 Gyabo wrote: I always thought you get +1 range attack, along w/ hydra speed and range, if you're going for a hydra timing push. Or get +1 carapace w/ lurkers if you're planning to defend and expand (assuming the toss is not going sair/reaver). Are zergs going +1 range without the intention of attacking nowadays? u get +1 carapace and lurkers if you want to go for contain play and not go hydra-heavy. I think zergs are going +1 range nowadays due to top toss getting better and better at timing their midgame zeal+archon push...though it still doesn't seem to be helping... -____-;; | ||
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sprawlers
Norway439 Posts
This leads to a protoss with three bases and a comparable army fighting a zerg struggling to take his fourth, which sucks majorly for the zerg. my random theorycrafting is that zerg will have to go back from using the 3hatch lair ->scourge->5hat hydra and start going lair into hydra and delay spire possibly using gas to get +1 carpace instead to fight zealarchon with hydraling or just go lurkers first as the build seems to delay observer forever, to stop protoss from getting such a fast third up. | ||
Ver
United States2186 Posts
On December 11 2008 19:55 Supah wrote: plexa, you are wrong. DT/sair is hardly an issue now (not in taking the fourth at least), problem is the zeal/arhonpush that hits zerg right after a 4th base would complete, zergs are allready having hell trying to defend it with 3 bases with 5hatch hydra, taking a forth doesn't help. Also saying its 2gas vs 2gas is simplifying, I'm not to updated on the maps but of those three new maps I remember there were gasses on the third in all but medusa. problem is just that zergs seem to be having trouble with stopping the protoss push, and just have no chance at keeping the protoss from expanding, watch bisu vs devil from GOMTV or vs Calm from proleague, there is a game against july too which i think he uses the same build, but i can be wrong, protosses feel free to correct) This leads to a protoss with three bases and a comparable army fighting a zerg struggling to take his fourth, which sucks majorly for the zerg. my random theorycrafting is that zerg will have to go back from using the 3hatch lair ->scourge->5hat hydra and start going lair into hydra and delay spire possibly using gas to get +1 carpace instead to fight zealarchon with hydraling or just go lurkers first as the build seems to delay observer forever, to stop protoss from getting such a fast third up. No Plexa is right. Go look at Bisu vs Savior finals again, especially on Longinus. Savior was triple expanding in response to Protoss FE and until Bisu they had no answer to that. Of course Savior could win too when he didn't triple expand, but before that it still worked. rA had even did the same zeal/archon timing rush all the way back in Pringles 1 Finals. It beat Savior there since he went mutas. Basically Zerg needs another Savior to reinvent both their matchups. Jaedong wasn't really much of an innovator and now that he's bad Zerg has nobody. | ||
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Plexa
Aotearoa39261 Posts
On December 11 2008 19:55 Supah wrote: No i'm right - Bisu changed the greediness of the 4th base, whether or not it is an issue now is irrelevant. The difficulty in stopping the push is kinda a weak excuse plexa, you are wrong. DT/sair is hardly an issue now (not in taking the fourth at least), problem is the zeal/arhonpush that hits zerg right after a 4th base would complete, zergs are allready having hell trying to defend it with 3 bases with 5hatch hydra, taking a forth doesn't help. Also saying its 2gas vs 2gas is simplifying, I'm not to updated on the maps but of those three new maps I remember there were gasses on the third in all but medusa. problem is just that zergs seem to be having trouble with stopping the protoss push, and just have no chance at keeping the protoss from expanding, watch bisu vs devil from GOMTV or vs Calm from proleague, there is a game against july too which i think he uses the same build, but i can be wrong, protosses feel free to correct) This leads to a protoss with three bases and a comparable army fighting a zerg struggling to take his fourth, which sucks majorly for the zerg. my random theorycrafting is that zerg will have to go back from using the 3hatch lair ->scourge->5hat hydra and start going lair into hydra and delay spire possibly using gas to get +1 carpace instead to fight zealarchon with hydraling or just go lurkers first as the build seems to delay observer forever, to stop protoss from getting such a fast third up.  they used to deal with 5gate speedlot after FE to timing attack the zerg's 3rd . Okay let's take a look at some current maps; Destination - Zergs take their third on the highground with the gas) - HOW DIFFICULT IS IT TO TAKE THE MINERAL ONLY WITH A 4th HATCH?! that really pisses me off Adromeda - Zergs generally take another main - thats good! but typically too late. Medusa - fourth taken really late Colo - as above Zerg's are just in a low eco frame of mind and really need to get the 4th base over the protoss to compound on any advantages and make up lost ground. Sair/DT isn't an issue anymore, as you rightly pointed out, so taking a faster 4th should be commonplace. However Zergs just haven't learned this yet... Seriously, Zerg have the best defensive machinery in the game!!! Sunk/Spore/Lurk is so hard to break and, say on medusa, if you have two bases defended with that, it meants you can easily progress onto Ultralisk tech and enter the lategame much better off .. | ||
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PH
United States6173 Posts
An early fourth (assuming the third isn't easily accessible like in Medusa or Andromeda) would only make matters worse. The zeal/archon timing attack hits just before most BOs nowadays JUST stop drone production and focus on hydras or what have you. | ||
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PhilGood2DaY
Germany7424 Posts
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Too_MuchZerg
Finland2818 Posts
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Snare
Trinidad/Tobago129 Posts
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raga4ka
Bulgaria5679 Posts
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raga4ka
Bulgaria5679 Posts
On December 11 2008 20:30 Ver wrote: No Plexa is right. Go look at Bisu vs Savior finals again, especially on Longinus. Savior was triple expanding in response to Protoss FE and until Bisu they had no answer to that. Of course Savior could win too when he didn't triple expand, but before that it still worked. rA had even did the same zeal/archon timing rush all the way back in Pringles 1 Finals. It beat Savior there since he went mutas. Basically Zerg needs another Savior to reinvent both their matchups. Jaedong wasn't really much of an innovator and now that he's bad Zerg has nobody. Every zerg should model their ZvP from Tushin's and this silly arguments won't happen ... I don't know how bad zergs have it vs heavy archon / zealot pushes , but maybe geting the lurker update first then speed and range will help them vs timing archon/zealot push and of course the range attack update first instead of carapace . Fast spire is a must this days to counter any corsair oriented builds , also mutas are pretty good for harrasing purposes . | ||
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mIsUZu
New Zealand528 Posts
Every zerg should model their ZvP from Tushin's and this silly arguments won't happen .... Last I heard Bisu raped Tushin | ||
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raga4ka
Bulgaria5679 Posts
You obviously heard wrong .... He may have taken games from him , but Tushin >>> protoss my friend with Bisu or without him . Even TLPD laughs at your statement Tushin 3 vs Bisu 2 http://www.teamliquid.net/tlpd/details.php?type=players&id=117&part=games&vs=125&league=any&map=any&from_year=2003&from_month=4&from_day=1&to_year=2008&to_month=12&to_day=6&action=Update A weak win an Medusa doesn't change the fact that he received one of the bigger rapes ZvP on Chupung-Ryeong ( god i hate this map's name ) . I wrote that not because i wanted to start some kind of war with protosses , but because his style is very strong and more zergs should model their ZvP from him and not Savior or Jaedong example . I responded to the comments about Savior and Jaedong above ... | ||
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