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What ive seen is..
ZvP fight...
Z has enough Hydras.
P does his new found Zeal/Archon and a bit later Temp push.
Z is doing good until he is kinda in a corner (be it at his 3d or 4th)... Then the Hydradancing becomes impossible/inneffective and a few storms really *hit* because tehre is just no room left,
Look Bisu vs Calm - most recent game... Calms army was big enough at all stages.. he just once moved into the wrong direction and it was over, the reinforcments of Bisu just crushed everything Calm could do from there.
It's like reversed... A long time it was: P loses his army, he's nearly dead... Now it's.. Zerg makes a mistake, he's dead. The diffrence? A Protoss needs a few good Storms/good Position to waste an *even* Zerg army whitout a problem. If the Zerg gets into the corner ONCE in midgame the game is over, if it does not happens Zerg still often wins.
I just think Z is now *harder* than P, like Z is kinda harder vs T. If the Z executes flawless it looks *easy* and *balanced* if he does one mistake, he's dead...
Thats the diffrence between now and 1 year ago.
They key will probably be to just keep Protoss occupied on oppen space, no matter what. As soon as the Toss gets to were he wants to push, it's over.
Well, thats just my newbiesh view of the recent events... And i hate the recent events ^^
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United States3824 Posts
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On December 12 2008 08:35 Velr wrote:
What ive seen is..
ZvP fight...
Z has enough Hydras.
P does his new found Zeal/Archon and a bit later Temp push.
Z is doing good until he is kinda in a corner (be it at his 3d or 4th)... Then the Hydradancing becomes impossible/inneffective and a few storms really *hit* because tehre is just no room left,
Look Bisu vs Calm - most recent game... Calms army was big enough at all stages.. he just once moved into the wrong direction and it was over, the reinforcments of Bisu just crushed everything Calm could do from there.
It's like reversed... A long time it was: P loses his army, he's nearly dead... Now it's.. Zerg makes a mistake, he's dead. The diffrence? A Protoss needs a few good Storms/good Position to waste an *even* Zerg army whitout a problem. If the Zerg gets into the corner ONCE in midgame the game is over, if it does not happens Zerg still often wins.
I just think Z is now *harder* than P, like Z is kinda harder vs T. If the Z executes flawless it looks *easy* and *balanced* if he does one mistake, he's dead...
Thats the diffrence between now and 1 year ago.
They key will probably be to just keep Protoss occupied on oppen space, no matter what. As soon as the Toss gets to were he wants to push, it's over.
Well, thats just my newbiesh view of the recent events... And i hate the recent events ^^
I think the calm vs bisu game shows a good point that when (at least against avery good PvZ such as bisu) that pretty much a Zerg cannot beat a protoss if they are both left to their will for the 1st 10 mins. Basically in that game neither player was aggressive until the midgame push by Bisu. And especially on a map like Medusa where there is a free 3rd min-only, protoss > zerg in eco and army. Zerg pretty much NEED to be aggressive to keep the protoss in check. It seems that a very passive style just doesn't work any more (I can't think of many games at all where the Zerg didn't win by being aggressive in the early-mid game).
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This thread has more strategy in it than the last month of the strategy forum combined.
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MrHoon
10183 Posts
(wow I posted this in a different thread, reposting it here)
After hearing what the OGN said about ZvP imbalance these days is that they (IE NOT ME, DONT CALL ME A FAGIT) mention not map, but the real reason why ZvP seems imbalance is because of mineral patches.
To quote Kim "Carry" a loved OGN commentator
Alot of zerg players and watchers believe that "Zerg can only win if they get more expos than the protoss player" however this is false in every way. Just because a Zerg has more expos than the protoss is not the real solution to do this. The only solution is a) deny the protoss from getting their 3rd expansion or b) lower the number of mineral patches in starting bases like old maps. Long ago when people claimed Zerg was superior in ZvP there were many matches where protoss won just barely because they were mining an extra mineral patch
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I think lower value mineral patches have been a huge balance problem in starcraft for a long time,1500? .. why .... because blizzard picked it .... hmm When it came to maps they weren't (for the most part) all that great. A main with mineral patches that are 1000 with 3 bases could very well balance everything PvT ... instead of P gets to take every base , he HAS too and ZvP zerg would have to expo more also because they couldn't count on having 4 or even 5 mining bases at once , if the game gets to lategame. Although this might mean Z rapes T mercilessly.
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MrHoon
10183 Posts
On December 12 2008 19:26 AttackZerg wrote:
I think lower value mineral patches have been a huge balance problem in starcraft for a long time,1500? .. why .... because blizzard picked it .... hmm When it came to maps they weren't (for the most part) all that great. A main with mineral patches that are 1000 with 3 bases could very well balance everything PvT ... instead of P gets to take every base , he HAS too and ZvP zerg would have to expo more also because they couldn't count on having 4 or even 5 mining bases at once , if the game gets to lategame. Although this might mean Z rapes T mercilessly.
no no not the mineral count
the amount of patches
IE instead of 8, give 6
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I was giving a theory of mine that relates to the value of mineral patches, not the number.
Not that I can't say it isn't possible, he is correct, I just have always thought about mineral patch values and then after your post felt compeled to post it  .
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Kim "Carry" is correct. Zerg benefits more from this since their patches arent optimally saturated.
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A lot of really nice strategy so far, and also alot of really useless "what zerg is/was the best" discussion. Funny really, seeing how Savior was actually the first person to push this new ZvP style of +1 range hydra/lurker play. If you haven't already, go watch the bo3 between Savior and Free and take note of the Destination and Medusa games. The entire thought behind savior's play, as I see it, was to quickly get 1 more gas than the protoss and then deny him the opportunity to take a 3rd gas by making a mid-game army that could actually compete with the protoss army. The game on Medusa was really the most telling I thought, seeing how Savior was able to deny Free his 3rd gas for ages despite beeing so massively behind as he was.
The key word when using hydra/lurker must have to be pressure. Constantly force the protoss to fight in the open and make sure that you never have to retreat back to your own choke, which will buy toss time to setup an expansion.
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Savior did the same failing strategy that alot of zergs are doing right now which is super heavy heavy hydra into hydra/lurker.
Which is a result of protoss playing a very ground heavy style. Problems? They loss tech/economy/grades benefits? ... they not might die in 11 minutes.
Modern protoss is forcing zerg to make hydras, which ... well there is a reason zergs weren't going pure 5 hat hydra against the 'bisu build' in the first place.
Zerg on the pro level very shortly will resort back to what jaedong WAS doing and effort IS doing, scourge opening/lurker opening dual into hydra/ling/lurker defensive/harrassment army, into 4th-5th bases. Its just a more ackward harder to time style of play, but it has become nessasary, except on maps where mass hydra/lurker are obviously strong like destination and to some degree bluestorm.
That or even more hopefully maybe a similar style that jaedong used on othello against bisus dt first ground heavy army 4 hat lair ->hydraspeed-lingspeed-oviespeed then dual lurker/muta tech save up WAY much and make 4 lurkers and then rapidly produce 8-9 muta
and used your hydra/ling/lurker/muta army to push toss all the way into his natural while you get a 4th(6th hat), which even if it becomes popular again will see a resurgance of dt/sair play and round and round we go.
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What happened to ZvP was Savior! He was just to damn good, so ppl had to adapt.
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Hi,
Im new around here, so I'm just going to ask one thing: why are you calling July "Tushin"? does it mean "July" in corean?
Also, is there an english VOD for those matches? I would be very interested in learning how to rape protoss with zerg in at least one map 
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"tushin" is a Korean word that is two Chinese characters meaning "God of War"
the Chinese characters work out to "tu" = war, "shin" = God
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On December 12 2008 19:20 MrHoon wrote:(wow I posted this in a different thread, reposting it here) After hearing what the OGN said about ZvP imbalance these days is that they (IE NOT ME, DONT CALL ME A FAGIT) mention not map, but the real reason why ZvP seems imbalance is because of mineral patches. To quote Kim "Carry" a loved OGN commentator Show nested quote +Alot of zerg players and watchers believe that "Zerg can only win if they get more expos than the protoss player" however this is false in every way. Just because a Zerg has more expos than the protoss is not the real solution to do this. The only solution is a) deny the protoss from getting their 3rd expansion or b) lower the number of mineral patches in starting bases like old maps. Long ago when people claimed Zerg was superior in ZvP there were many matches where protoss won just barely because they were mining an extra mineral patch
That's a pretty good theory. I'm sure that has some effect on the matchup. Thanks for posting that.
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Savior's zvp didnt become old fashioned, he just went into a slump. It is a psychologic issue.
His every MU become awful.
But July never went into a slump,his zvp has always been on of the best zvp ,but his zvz and zvt are equal to 2005-2006 years
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By the way, 1+ range Hydra/Lurl is invented by Savior. Savior vs Free GSL. After everbody began to use it in PL etc.
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EPT
