EPTWhat is happening to ZvP?
Why is +1 range /5 hatch hydra popular nowdays?
Why isn't +1 armor with lurker build used anymore?
Is it because of maps?
What happened to ZvP?
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Too_MuchZerg
Finland2818 Posts
What is happening to ZvP? Why is +1 range /5 hatch hydra popular nowdays? Why isn't +1 armor with lurker build used anymore? Is it because of maps? | ||
Liquid`Drone
Norway28597 Posts
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mIsUZu
New Zealand528 Posts
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Gyabo
United States329 Posts
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zer0das
United States8519 Posts
On December 11 2008 18:00 mIsUZu wrote: Along came Bisu and Best. That's what happened. One of these names does not belong with the other... | ||
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Too_MuchZerg
Finland2818 Posts
On December 11 2008 18:11 Gyabo wrote: I always thought you get +1 range attack, along w/ hydra speed and range, if you're going for a hydra timing push. Or get +1 carapace w/ lurkers if you're planning to defend and expand (assuming the toss is not going sair/reaver). Are zergs going +1 range without the intention of attacking nowadays? I always though that this 5 hatch hydra build with 1 range is counter for +1 zealot/archon push. | ||
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Fontong
United States6454 Posts
On December 11 2008 18:00 mIsUZu wrote: Along came Bisu and Zergbait. That's what happened. Wait wut? fixed | ||
Plexa
Aotearoa39261 Posts
TAKE YOUR GODDAM 4TH EXPANSION FASTER ZERG | ||
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PH
United States6173 Posts
On December 11 2008 18:11 Gyabo wrote: I always thought you get +1 range attack, along w/ hydra speed and range, if you're going for a hydra timing push. Or get +1 carapace w/ lurkers if you're planning to defend and expand (assuming the toss is not going sair/reaver). Are zergs going +1 range without the intention of attacking nowadays? u get +1 carapace and lurkers if you want to go for contain play and not go hydra-heavy. I think zergs are going +1 range nowadays due to top toss getting better and better at timing their midgame zeal+archon push...though it still doesn't seem to be helping... -____-;; | ||
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sprawlers
Norway439 Posts
This leads to a protoss with three bases and a comparable army fighting a zerg struggling to take his fourth, which sucks majorly for the zerg. my random theorycrafting is that zerg will have to go back from using the 3hatch lair ->scourge->5hat hydra and start going lair into hydra and delay spire possibly using gas to get +1 carpace instead to fight zealarchon with hydraling or just go lurkers first as the build seems to delay observer forever, to stop protoss from getting such a fast third up. | ||
Ver
United States2186 Posts
On December 11 2008 19:55 Supah wrote: plexa, you are wrong. DT/sair is hardly an issue now (not in taking the fourth at least), problem is the zeal/arhonpush that hits zerg right after a 4th base would complete, zergs are allready having hell trying to defend it with 3 bases with 5hatch hydra, taking a forth doesn't help. Also saying its 2gas vs 2gas is simplifying, I'm not to updated on the maps but of those three new maps I remember there were gasses on the third in all but medusa. problem is just that zergs seem to be having trouble with stopping the protoss push, and just have no chance at keeping the protoss from expanding, watch bisu vs devil from GOMTV or vs Calm from proleague, there is a game against july too which i think he uses the same build, but i can be wrong, protosses feel free to correct) This leads to a protoss with three bases and a comparable army fighting a zerg struggling to take his fourth, which sucks majorly for the zerg. my random theorycrafting is that zerg will have to go back from using the 3hatch lair ->scourge->5hat hydra and start going lair into hydra and delay spire possibly using gas to get +1 carpace instead to fight zealarchon with hydraling or just go lurkers first as the build seems to delay observer forever, to stop protoss from getting such a fast third up. No Plexa is right. Go look at Bisu vs Savior finals again, especially on Longinus. Savior was triple expanding in response to Protoss FE and until Bisu they had no answer to that. Of course Savior could win too when he didn't triple expand, but before that it still worked. rA had even did the same zeal/archon timing rush all the way back in Pringles 1 Finals. It beat Savior there since he went mutas. Basically Zerg needs another Savior to reinvent both their matchups. Jaedong wasn't really much of an innovator and now that he's bad Zerg has nobody. | ||
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Plexa
Aotearoa39261 Posts
On December 11 2008 19:55 Supah wrote: No i'm right - Bisu changed the greediness of the 4th base, whether or not it is an issue now is irrelevant. The difficulty in stopping the push is kinda a weak excuse plexa, you are wrong. DT/sair is hardly an issue now (not in taking the fourth at least), problem is the zeal/arhonpush that hits zerg right after a 4th base would complete, zergs are allready having hell trying to defend it with 3 bases with 5hatch hydra, taking a forth doesn't help. Also saying its 2gas vs 2gas is simplifying, I'm not to updated on the maps but of those three new maps I remember there were gasses on the third in all but medusa. problem is just that zergs seem to be having trouble with stopping the protoss push, and just have no chance at keeping the protoss from expanding, watch bisu vs devil from GOMTV or vs Calm from proleague, there is a game against july too which i think he uses the same build, but i can be wrong, protosses feel free to correct) This leads to a protoss with three bases and a comparable army fighting a zerg struggling to take his fourth, which sucks majorly for the zerg. my random theorycrafting is that zerg will have to go back from using the 3hatch lair ->scourge->5hat hydra and start going lair into hydra and delay spire possibly using gas to get +1 carpace instead to fight zealarchon with hydraling or just go lurkers first as the build seems to delay observer forever, to stop protoss from getting such a fast third up.  they used to deal with 5gate speedlot after FE to timing attack the zerg's 3rd . Okay let's take a look at some current maps; Destination - Zergs take their third on the highground with the gas) - HOW DIFFICULT IS IT TO TAKE THE MINERAL ONLY WITH A 4th HATCH?! that really pisses me off Adromeda - Zergs generally take another main - thats good! but typically too late. Medusa - fourth taken really late Colo - as above Zerg's are just in a low eco frame of mind and really need to get the 4th base over the protoss to compound on any advantages and make up lost ground. Sair/DT isn't an issue anymore, as you rightly pointed out, so taking a faster 4th should be commonplace. However Zergs just haven't learned this yet... Seriously, Zerg have the best defensive machinery in the game!!! Sunk/Spore/Lurk is so hard to break and, say on medusa, if you have two bases defended with that, it meants you can easily progress onto Ultralisk tech and enter the lategame much better off .. | ||
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PH
United States6173 Posts
An early fourth (assuming the third isn't easily accessible like in Medusa or Andromeda) would only make matters worse. The zeal/archon timing attack hits just before most BOs nowadays JUST stop drone production and focus on hydras or what have you. | ||
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PhilGood2DaY
Germany7424 Posts
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Too_MuchZerg
Finland2818 Posts
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Snare
Trinidad/Tobago129 Posts
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raga4ka
Bulgaria5679 Posts
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raga4ka
Bulgaria5679 Posts
On December 11 2008 20:30 Ver wrote: No Plexa is right. Go look at Bisu vs Savior finals again, especially on Longinus. Savior was triple expanding in response to Protoss FE and until Bisu they had no answer to that. Of course Savior could win too when he didn't triple expand, but before that it still worked. rA had even did the same zeal/archon timing rush all the way back in Pringles 1 Finals. It beat Savior there since he went mutas. Basically Zerg needs another Savior to reinvent both their matchups. Jaedong wasn't really much of an innovator and now that he's bad Zerg has nobody. Every zerg should model their ZvP from Tushin's and this silly arguments won't happen ... I don't know how bad zergs have it vs heavy archon / zealot pushes , but maybe geting the lurker update first then speed and range will help them vs timing archon/zealot push and of course the range attack update first instead of carapace . Fast spire is a must this days to counter any corsair oriented builds , also mutas are pretty good for harrasing purposes . | ||
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mIsUZu
New Zealand528 Posts
Every zerg should model their ZvP from Tushin's and this silly arguments won't happen .... Last I heard Bisu raped Tushin | ||
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raga4ka
Bulgaria5679 Posts
You obviously heard wrong .... He may have taken games from him , but Tushin >>> protoss my friend with Bisu or without him . Even TLPD laughs at your statement Tushin 3 vs Bisu 2 http://www.teamliquid.net/tlpd/details.php?type=players&id=117&part=games&vs=125&league=any&map=any&from_year=2003&from_month=4&from_day=1&to_year=2008&to_month=12&to_day=6&action=Update A weak win an Medusa doesn't change the fact that he received one of the bigger rapes ZvP on Chupung-Ryeong ( god i hate this map's name ) . I wrote that not because i wanted to start some kind of war with protosses , but because his style is very strong and more zergs should model their ZvP from him and not Savior or Jaedong example . I responded to the comments about Savior and Jaedong above ... | ||
GHOSTCLAW
United States17042 Posts
overall, I think that Zergs need to figure out a way to get their third gas faster. 2 gas vs 2 gas on most of these maps isn't working out very well for them. | ||
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Velr
Switzerland10637 Posts
*Beating* is something diffrent. Just look at Bisus ZvP Record for the last half year... http://www.teamliquid.net/tlpd/details.php?type=players&id=125&part=games&vs=Z&league=any&map=any&from_year=2008&from_month=6&from_day=1&to_year=2008&to_month=12&to_day=31&action=Update 76.47% win O_o... Luxury took one and the other two guys capable of winning against him are Calm and July :p. No Zerg has positive stats againt Bisu (at least recently)... Oh... and Calm and Bisu really brawl each other alot ^^. | ||
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raga4ka
Bulgaria5679 Posts
I think zergs should stay on 3 bases pump nonstop army so that they can keep map control , and then take their fourth base . Rushing to a fourth base is somewhat stupid if you don't have the army to protect your bases or to deny his third and fourth ones . Thats how July plays and doesn't give much openings for a protoss to exploit . But some people think that 2 base toss vs 3 base zerg is a bad situation from the start and In fact it is not protoss has the pressure on of being starved if they can't take a third base . You don't need a fourth base to keep a toss contained most of the times, but it is safer to be on four and more bases to solidify your advantage or if you want to finish him off . It is risky to try and kill a protoss when you have around equal strong armys when you are an 3 bases , because if you mess up one fight and its going down hill from there if you can't keep map control . | ||
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samachking
Bahrain4949 Posts
On December 11 2008 21:57 raga4ka wrote: You obviously heard wrong .... He may have taken games from him , but Tushin >>> protoss my friend with Bisu or without him . Even TLPD laughs at your statement Tushin 3 vs Bisu 2 http://www.teamliquid.net/tlpd/details.php?type=players&id=117&part=games&vs=125&league=any&map=any&from_year=2003&from_month=4&from_day=1&to_year=2008&to_month=12&to_day=6&action=Update A weak win an Medusa doesn't change the fact that he received one of the bigger rapes ZvP on Chupung-Ryeong ( god i hate this map's name ) . I wrote that not because i wanted to start some kind of war with protosses , but because his style is very strong and more zergs should model their ZvP from him and not Savior or Jaedong excample . I responded to the comments about Savior and Jaedong above ... Tempest 2-0'd July out of the previous season's offline qualifiers. July got knocked out of the last OSL by 2 Tosses. July's ZvP isnt all that great, he just had a run against players with weak PvZ in his OSL, Jaedong could have taken that osl with that kind of run easily. | ||
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raga4ka
Bulgaria5679 Posts
On December 11 2008 22:33 samachking wrote: Tempest 2-0'd July out of the previous season's offline qualifiers. July got knocked out of the last OSL by 2 Tosses. July's ZvP isnt all that great, he just had a run against players with weak PvZ in his OSL, Jaedong could have taken that osl with that kind of run easily. Whats the freaking point everyone losses and wins vs eny race ??? I just wanted to point out that nowadays it is better for zergs to model their play from July , because his ZvP has always stayed strong . And i wrote that to responce to mIsUZu's wrong statement that Bisu in fact doesn't rape July and no toss has . July lost to Bul_T on byzantium even , but that doesn't change the fact that if July can kill the best PvZers he wouldn't have a problem with either Tempest or Bul_T most of the times . | ||
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monstar123
United States516 Posts
On December 11 2008 22:33 samachking wrote: Tempest 2-0'd July out of the previous season's MST. July got knocked out of the last OSL by 2 Tosses. July's ZvP isnt all that great, he just had a run against players with weak PvZ in his OSL, Jaedong could have taken that osl with that kind of run easily. That's true instead of 1 protoss if there would be 1 terran(even Pepe(z-zone)) or zerg(anyone even 50% zvz user) he could lose it. It's obvious. | ||
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Guybrush
Spain4744 Posts
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raga4ka
Bulgaria5679 Posts
On December 11 2008 22:56 Guybrush wrote: Saying "Model your ZvP after July" is like saying "Model your ZvZ after Jaedong". You can model all you want but it's their crazy mechanics that allow them to play like that. Their play cant be mimicked with success by worse players like the case was with Saviors 3 hatch muta ZvT or his overall ZvP-play pre-Bisu. I'm not saing that they should be over agressive , but they should focus on map control earlier when protoss are on 2 basses with smaller army . I wrote that above if you got to that actually the part of 2 base toss vs 3 base zerg middle to late game . | ||
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Shikyo
Finland33997 Posts
On December 11 2008 21:57 raga4ka wrote: You obviously heard wrong .... He may have taken games from him , but Tushin >>> protoss my friend with Bisu or without him . Even TLPD laughs at your statement Tushin 3 vs Bisu 2 http://www.teamliquid.net/tlpd/details.php?type=players&id=117&part=games&vs=125&league=any&map=any&from_year=2003&from_month=4&from_day=1&to_year=2008&to_month=12&to_day=6&action=Update A weak win an Medusa doesn't change the fact that he received one of the bigger rapes ZvP on Chupung-Ryeong ( god i hate this map's name ) . I wrote that not because i wanted to start some kind of war with protosses , but because his style is very strong and more zergs should model their ZvP from him and not Savior or Jaedong excample . I responded to the comments about Savior and Jaedong above ... Nah, it was just mass hydra. Calling that "one of the biggest rapes" is silly, especially since Bisu was slumping back then. Yes, Savior's ZvP was only like 80% before he played with Bisu. That's soo bad. | ||
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raga4ka
Bulgaria5679 Posts
On December 11 2008 23:05 Shikyo wrote: Nah, it was just mass hydra. Calling that "one of the biggest rapes" is silly, especially since Bisu was slumping back then. Yes, Savior's ZvP was only like 80% before he played with Bisu. That's soo bad. That doesn't change the fact that Savior is haveing a worse time vs Bisu and tosses that use "revolutionized PvZ" then Julyzerg ... Imo even in a slump July still remains strong in ZvP . Again the point of this is that July is more effective versus new generation and all kinds of protosses then most of the zergs even while not at his best . And i don't think that you understand how hard it was for eny zerg to win with just mass hidras in that situation . At some point July and Bisu were an equal bases and July just managed to take his fourth and it wasn't online very quick . To say that it was "just mass hidras " Edit: I didn't said "biggest" a said bigger there is a diffrence between those words . I think that the overall more successful ZvP should be copyd and not the most dominant ZvP in a period of time . And i won't reply enymore to enyone who reads one sentences from a comment and hurrys to bash on it .... I explained my thoughts so there . | ||
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Shikyo
Finland33997 Posts
And there actually isn't that much difference between "one of the bigger" and "one of the biggest" because of the way you use it. "One of the bigger" doesn't really sound correct to my ears anyway, and it's wrong in any case. | ||
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abakben
United States308 Posts
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mIsUZu
New Zealand528 Posts
I was half joking when I said Bisu raped July but both facts and current status shows July is in no form, in both zvp and zvt.. Sure he may be agressive zvp user and is very dangerous zerg for protosses but thats like me saying yea sure nada is the best progamer in the past, now and future no mattter what the results show currently.. Like someone mentioned, he 0:2 against tempest and got knocked out from the upcoming MSL and his zvt has never been on form season.. Also, Bisu?? Hmmm last I heard hes on like 10++ winning streak on proleagues and won MSL recently and is currently having the best results from the 6 invincible tosses at the moment.. I've rambled on but my point is once a great progamer doesn't mean hes the god of certain mu, it's the current result and stats that backs up how good he is/isn't.. | ||
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Ver
United States2186 Posts
On December 11 2008 23:12 raga4ka wrote: That doesn't change the fact that Savior is haveing a worse time vs Bisu and tosses that use "revolutionized PvZ" then Julyzerg ... Imo even in a slump July still remains strong in ZvP . Again the point of this is that July is more effective versus new generation and all kinds of protosses then most of the zergs even while not at his best . Edit: I didn't said "biggest" a said bigger there is a diffrence between those words . I think that the overall more successful ZvP should be copyd and not the most dominant ZvP in a period of time . And i won't reply enymore to enyone who reads one sentences from a comment and hurrys to bash on it .... I explained my thoughts so there .Clueless fanboys are the worst. Guess what Savior went in '07 in between his series against Bisu in GOM 1 MSL and Ever '07 OSL versus the best protosses below Bisu? 17-3 (85%) Yeah some wins were against Backho and company but at the same time the vast majority were against the A level Protosses. Anyways listen to Plexa. | ||
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raga4ka
Bulgaria5679 Posts
On December 11 2008 23:21 abakben wrote: As far as I know most of July wins against Bisu were all in hydra attacks when Bisu was in big slump. I do not think July can win a long straight game against nonslumping Bisu. As far as i know going all in hidras from 3 - 4and more bases ( watch the game on Chupung ) it is called Sauron hidra then all in .... All in meens if it fails you are practicly dead , you are not dead if you fail an attack from 3 - 4 bases , because you can macro up and July never slips on macro together with his incredible micro thats what makes July the Tushin . | ||
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abakben
United States308 Posts
On December 11 2008 23:35 raga4ka wrote: As far as i know going all in hidras from 3 - 4and more bases ( watch the game on Chupung ) it is called Sauron hidra then all in .... All in meens if it fails you are practicly dead , you are not dead if you fail an attack from 3 - 4 bases , because you can macro up and July never slips on macro together with his incredible micro thats what makes July the Tushin . I am still behind my claim. July is no match for nonslumping Bisu. | ||
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raga4ka
Bulgaria5679 Posts
On December 11 2008 23:35 Ver wrote: Clueless fanboys are the worst. Guess what Savior went in '07 in between his series against Bisu in GOM 1 MSL and Ever '07 OSL versus the best protosses below Bisu? 17-3 (85%) Yeah some wins were against Backho and company but at the same time the vast majority were against the A level Protosses. Anyways listen to Plexa. Yes i'm a fan of July but not because he is Julyzerg but because of his ZvP style , that doesn't meen that i don't love Savior or Jaedong . Hey listen i haven't said that Savior was/is bad at ZvP i'm not saing that July is the better in ZvP then Savior was . But is July still a good player and better NOW then Savior in this MU yup i would say so no problem . I don't care if Savior went 212132312312 - 0 before if he can't beet Bisu and a protoss now means that July's style is overall more succssesful then Savior's when protoss have updated their skills . Whats with all the offensive comments in this thread i don't get it ??? | ||
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samachking
Bahrain4949 Posts
On December 11 2008 23:35 Ver wrote: Clueless fanboys are the worst. Guess what Savior went in '07 in between his series against Bisu in GOM 1 MSL and Ever '07 OSL versus the best protosses below Bisu? 17-3 (85%) Yeah some wins were against Backho and company but at the same time the vast majority were against the A level Protosses. Anyways listen to Plexa. Infact Savior went 12 winstreak vs P right after he lost to Bisu in Gom, thats the highest streak vP of all time. Savior didnt slump but Bisu was just plain better than Savior and his style countered savior. DT/Sair prevents triple expands with ease and puts lots of pressure on zerg to get detection and ovies evreywhere and a counter to sairs while all this defence is spread out on 4 bases hence negating the triple expand. | ||
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Shikyo
Finland33997 Posts
On December 11 2008 23:35 Ver wrote: Clueless fanboys are the worst. Guess what Savior went in '07 in between his series against Bisu in GOM 1 MSL and Ever '07 OSL versus the best protosses below Bisu? 17-3 (85%) Yeah some wins were against Backho and company but at the same time the vast majority were against the A level Protosses. Anyways listen to Plexa. Ah that's right, Savior hit his ZvP elo peak after his loss to Bisu in the MSL finals. (Which is the third highest peak ever, only behind iloveoov's TvZ (when his record was 27-0), and Jaedong's ZvZ.) But what exactly is this modern PvZ you're talking about? | ||
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Plexa
Aotearoa39261 Posts
On December 11 2008 23:54 samachking wrote: Precisely right. Once other protoss became accustomed with the bisu style and the maps change Savior started to lose all around. Infact Savior went 12 winstreak vs P right after he lost to Bisu in Gom, thats the highest streak vP of all time. Savior didnt slump but Bisu was just plain better than Savior and his style countered savior. DT/Sair prevents triple expands with ease and puts lots of pressure on zerg to get detection and ovies evreywhere and a counter to sairs while all this defence is spread out on 4 bases hence negating the triple expand. Let's talk about Savior vs July. Both are excellent ZvP players. Their styles are slightly different obviously, July used to favor slightly more aggressive opening (e.g. this http://www.teamliquid.net/tlpd/games/1251_July_vs_Pusan ). However more recently he's been mixing cheesier builds with high macro play vs Protoss. This is more like saviors style (to the best of my recollection), which focused more on economy and whatnot. He played against the FE with more bases, not 3hatch all-ins. Nowadays the correct way to play vs FE is to be more aggressive with expos like Savior -a style which july has adopted and is excelling at using. Oh btw, for the guy who quoted July vs Tempest as an example - clue up buddy Tempest also beat Jaedong sooooo... | ||
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raga4ka
Bulgaria5679 Posts
On December 11 2008 23:23 mIsUZu wrote: raga4ka I was half joking when I said Bisu raped July but both facts and current status shows July is in no form, in both zvp and zvt.. Sure he may be agressive zvp user and is very dangerous zerg for protosses but thats like me saying yea sure nada is the best progamer in the past, now and future no mattter what the results show currently.. Like someone mentioned, he 0:2 against tempest and got knocked out from the upcoming MSL and his zvt has never been on form season.. Also, Bisu?? Hmmm last I heard hes on like 10++ winning streak on proleagues and won MSL recently and is currently having the best results from the 6 invincible tosses at the moment.. I've rambled on but my point is once a great progamer doesn't mean hes the god of certain mu, it's the current result and stats that backs up how good he is/isn't.. I was half joking myself , but it seems that most of the people don't get it. I really couldn't care less of who is better July , Savior , Jaedong or Bisu there are all amazing players and can be put one over one an other in some aspects . Of course that Savior was the most dominant in that time . Does it even matter in this thread i just wanted to comment on + 1 attack instead of carapace thread and gave an excample with July . But comments on my post started to get more and more ignorant that i had to reply on them . | ||
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samachking
Bahrain4949 Posts
On December 12 2008 00:01 Plexa wrote: Precisely right. Once other protoss became accustomed with the bisu style and the maps change Savior started to lose all around. Let's talk about Savior vs July. Both are excellent ZvP players. Their styles are slightly different obviously, July used to favor slightly more aggressive opening (e.g. this http://www.teamliquid.net/tlpd/games/1251_July_vs_Pusan ). However more recently he's been mixing cheesier builds with high macro play vs Protoss. This is more like saviors style (to the best of my recollection), which focused more on economy and whatnot. He played against the FE with more bases, not 3hatch all-ins. Nowadays the correct way to play vs FE is to be more aggressive with expos like Savior -a style which july has adopted and is excelling at using. Oh btw, for the guy who quoted July vs Tempest as an example - clue up buddy Tempest also beat Jaedong sooooo...I was the one that quoted July vs Tempest, and I know that Tempest beat jaedong, but this is a statement that every Zerg right now is playing like shit, even July. And July is no better than Jaedong or Lux. Zergs are clueless right now and need to find better builds to adapt to the maps. | ||
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raga4ka
Bulgaria5679 Posts
On December 12 2008 00:01 Plexa wrote: Precisely right. Once other protoss became accustomed with the bisu style and the maps change Savior started to lose all around. Let's talk about Savior vs July. Both are excellent ZvP players. Their styles are slightly different obviously, July used to favor slightly more aggressive opening (e.g. this http://www.teamliquid.net/tlpd/games/1251_July_vs_Pusan ). However more recently he's been mixing cheesier builds with high macro play vs Protoss. This is more like saviors style (to the best of my recollection), which focused more on economy and whatnot. He played against the FE with more bases, not 3hatch all-ins. Nowadays the correct way to play vs FE is to be more aggressive with expos like Savior -a style which july has adopted and is excelling at using. Oh btw, for the guy who quoted July vs Tempest as an example - clue up buddy Tempest also beat Jaedong sooooo...I don't know if July adapted Savior style or other zergs ( Jaedong ) have adapted both's style witch is being more aggressive with economy . July not always focused an early aggression rather then early economy i remember his games vs Reach and Rock for example . Normaly if July doesn't do an all - in he looks to get an early , but not big economy advantage over a protoss ( which is 1 base ) and then he starts to pump nonstop and between his presure to the toss he gets more bases . Sometimes he takes all of the map and goes sauron , sometimes he kills them with just 1 more base then the protoss has . | ||
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arbiter_md
Moldova1219 Posts
On December 11 2008 22:23 raga4ka wrote: I think zergs should stay on 3 bases pump nonstop army so that they can keep map control , and then take their fourth base . Rushing to a fourth base is somewhat stupid if you don't have the army to protect your bases or to deny his third and fourth ones . Thats how July plays and doesn't give much openings for a protoss to exploit . But some people think that 2 base toss vs 3 base zerg is a bad situation from the start and In fact it is not protoss has the pressure on of being starved if they can't take a third base . You don't need a fourth base to keep a toss contained most of the times, but it is safer to be on four and more bases to solidify your advantage or if you want to finish him off . It is risky to try and kill a protoss when you have around equal strong armys when you are an 3 bases , because if you mess up one fight and its going down hill from there if you can't keep map control . I agree! When zerg stays in 3 bases and just mases the army it's very hard for toss to expand, and there's certain timing when zerg has to get the forth. It should happen when the zerg has enough army to control the map, and the prostoss ball is still quite small. It has to come before toss manages to get 3-rd. Zerg always has to keep control on the map and not allow the protoss have more than 2 mining bases at any time. | ||
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raga4ka
Bulgaria5679 Posts
On December 12 2008 00:09 samachking wrote: I was the one that quoted July vs Tempest, and I know that Tempest beat jaedong, but this is a statement that every Zerg right now is playing like shit, even July. And July is no better than Jaedong or Lux. Zergs are clueless right now and need to find better builds to adapt to the maps. July isn't a better player then Jaedong or Savior , i was talking about how July's ZvP almost didn't feel the "revolutionized PvZ" from Bisu or other tosses . But it seemed like when i responded to a replay that said that "Bisu raped July " , a replay based an no facts and nothing except maybe i don't know fanboism towards Bisu or that he is a toss with good PvZ in general . I don't think that July is as clueless as other zergs his knowledge in this MU is superior to the normal zerg together with his mechanics . An more of the balanced maps he will do fine except Byzantinum . And you can't compare July's ZvP to Luxurys or whatever . Jaedong's can most definitely compare but he is in a slump and not just his ZvP . | ||
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Plexa
Aotearoa39261 Posts
On December 12 2008 00:23 raga4ka wrote: oh yea I don't know if July adapted Savior style or other zergs ( Jaedong ) have adapted both's style witch is being more aggressive with economy . July not always focused an early aggression rather then early economy i remember his games vs Reach and Rock for example . Normaly if July doesn't do an all - in he looks to get an early , but not big economy advantage over a protoss ( which is 1 base ) and then he starts to pump nonstop and between his presure to the toss he gets more bases . Sometimes he takes all of the map and goes sauron , sometimes he kills them with just 1 more base then the protoss has . july's always been famous for his sauron zerg haha | ||
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raga4ka
Bulgaria5679 Posts
On December 12 2008 00:36 Plexa wrote: oh yea july's always been famous for his sauron zerg hahaI actually got in to proffesional starcraft by watching his games from Gillete OSL and after that i thought that he invented the Sauron zerg ( did he invented it because i don't know much about the history of starcraft before him ? ) . | ||
OneOther
United States10774 Posts
On December 11 2008 18:22 Plexa wrote: Zergs are too scared to take their 4th after Bisu's Dt/Sair abuse which controlled excessive expos. However, this forces zergs to fight 3 base vs 2 base which overall sucks (as its in reality 2 gas vs 2 gas). TAKE YOUR GODDAM 4TH EXPANSION FASTER ZERG actually, zerg getting a 4th base was never common in zvp. the counter to FE has always been to work with 3 bases, get enough hatcheries/drones/units (delay protoss third base as much as possible) and take the fourth when you can. you make it sound like zergs always took a 4th base but bisu changed it, when in fact it was always a risk and not many attempted it. zergs usually get punished by being greedy and taking a fourth, regardless of what the protoss chooses to do. | ||
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Ideas
United States8075 Posts
http://www.teamliquid.net/tlpd/games/9935_Bisu_vs_July/vod July was still very economic and took a 4th base, but really made bisu play right into his game. He went spire-den opening (spire about 30 seconds ahead of den) and at 1st only made like 6 scourge to fight off sairs. Then he made some mutas and (seemingly) made bisu morph a couple archons (and maybe build more sairs than he wanted too, I don't know what his plans were for sairs) to fight off the mutas. In the meanwhile July was massing a whole lot of hydras and upgading them as well as taking his 4th. His push was met with a lot less storms than usual, and then mixing in lurks soaked up even more storms (I'm not sure if bisu just forgot to get a robo or if he just couldn't afford it because of having to make a bigger army to fight off July). The result was basically a counter push with 1/1 hydras and some lurkers. Even if July didn't manage to kill Bisu right then and there he would of been well on par with him economically(assuming he continued to saturate his 4th, the observer never showed it). July might of lost to Tempest in the past, but over the Ever OSL he has clearly vastly improved his ZvP and totally trashed almost every Protoss he has faced this year (5 loses: 2 to bisu, 1 to much's awesome cannon rush, 1 to backho and 1 to byzantium). Just look at July's last game vs Tempest: http://www.teamliquid.net/tlpd/games/10293_July_vs_Tempest He killed Tempest's 1st archon with mutaling ffs. July has been playing a somewhat reversed midgame ZvP, where Zerg take their 4th and defend it through aggression, instead of the Protoss taking their 3rd during a push. (I could be totally wrong about some of my overall PvZ assumptions, but this is how I see it) | ||
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Guybrush
Spain4744 Posts
The way July played that game was indeed amazing, and "Bisu slump" "hydra allin" are indeed lame excuses. Chances are you didnt even see the game if you make such claims. Any protoss regardless of slump would've had to play excellent to win that game. I still stand by that very few or none Zerg would have been able to execute the play July showed there though, by mimicking his BO/execution. | ||
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raga4ka
Bulgaria5679 Posts
On December 12 2008 02:02 Guybrush wrote: Me and Ideas have the same ideas. Great post. The way July played that game was indeed amazing, and "Bisu slump" "hydra allin" are indeed lame excuses. Chances are you didnt even see the game if you make such claims. Any protoss regardless of slump would've had to play excellent to win that game. I still stand by that very few or none Zerg would have been able to execute the play July showed there though, by mimicking his BO/execution. I agree in that match mimicking JulyZerg was impossible , i just responded with it to the guy who said that Bisu rapes July . But i think zergs should play more aggresive and somewhat mimic Julyzerg , obviously they can't execute like him , but it will help to get a fourth base and prevent protoss from geting their early third . I can't imagine why can't zergs protect their bases vs zealot/archon timing pushes when lurkers come faster then archons or about the same time if both rushed . You can also mix in mutas or scourges with it and it doesn't really mess up the timings , but you will just have to update lurkers first then the other hidra updates .You can even protect it with some sunkens and hidras . I think that zergs are playing too greedy with all those hatcherys and they don't pump enough hidras or whatever on time . | ||
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tKd_
United States2916 Posts
the second option is to prevent a toss's third with 5 hatch ling/hydra lair delayed. then playing defensive after ur first attack. it can allow ur 4th. | ||
Chill
Calgary25974 Posts
On December 12 2008 00:51 OneOther wrote: actually, zerg getting a 4th base was never common in zvp. the counter to FE has always been to work with 3 bases, get enough hatcheries/drones/units (delay protoss third base as much as possible) and take the fourth when you can. you make it sound like zergs always took a 4th base but bisu changed it, when in fact it was always a risk and not many attempted it. zergs usually get punished by being greedy and taking a fourth, regardless of what the protoss chooses to do. God what are you talking about? Savior used to take his fourth with his fourth Hatchery in many pre-Bisu ZvPs... | ||
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Too_MuchZerg
Finland2818 Posts
On December 12 2008 02:19 Chill wrote: God what are you talking about? Savior used to take his fourth with his fourth Hatchery in many pre-Bisu ZvPs... I personally remember Savior using this strategy @ zodiac and some bluestorm games after bisu games. Perhaps I should watch his old games too. (The so popular mass muta and sunken :D) | ||
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raga4ka
Bulgaria5679 Posts
On December 12 2008 02:19 Chill wrote: God what are you talking about? Savior used to take his fourth with his fourth Hatchery in many pre-Bisu ZvPs... Back in the days Savior did whatever he fucking wanted because he was TheMaestro Actually i think protoss were pretty clueless back then . Far more clueless then zergs are now i can't really explain it thought . | ||
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Delerium
United States324 Posts
On December 12 2008 02:18 tKd_ wrote: I truly believe its a scouting issue as crazy as it sounds. because zvp is becoming so timing-based in critical portions, if the zerg would know exactly what thhe toss was doing, he could go that path before wasting time building certain upgrades. the second option is to prevent a toss's third with 5 hatch ling/hydra lair delayed. then playing defensive after ur first attack. it can allow ur 4th. In 2008 WCG Jaedong vs Best, game 3, Jaedong burrowed zerglings in a semi-circle all around Best's portion of the map, so that he would know exactly what Best sent out, where, and when. He won that game and spent it defending almost entirely when he wasn't denying Best's much-needed expansion. Best even secured an island expansion and still lost. He gave up right after a failed attack... Jaedong never penetrated his base that game, he starved him to death. (Later, JD also burrowed some hydralisks and baited Best's corsairs into chasing an overlord right on top of them, netting two kills from below. Burrow seems like the most under-rated, under-used skill in professional play.) To emphasize that you still have to play well against a professional Protoss, I will add that other critical plays that Jaedong made include a couple of shuttle/reaver picks. | ||
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hixhix
1156 Posts
On December 12 2008 02:27 raga4ka wrote: Back in the days Savior did whatever he fucking wanted because he was TheMaestro ....Yea, I sort of remember that. It didnt matter what savior did, he always won. For example, he did 3 hatches before pool vs terran, 12 pool 11 hatch vs terran, mass muta vs toss, double / triple expos vs toss fe... he didnt use only one build, he did different builds and he won anyway. So different from now, whatever he tries, he will lose anyway, irony -.- | ||
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sprawlers
Norway439 Posts
Nothing was revolutionary with what july did, its a common build that started to get popular on bluestorm or katrina?(might be wrong on this one) The build is used in almost all pvzs by zergs with the exception of building mutas instead of just scourge, which didnt help july much, bisu just fucked up and made it seem awesome. I've listed games where the zealarchonbuild plays against this zerg build earlier so I wont do that again, but belive me they are using the exact same build as july is, and you don't get enough forces with it to stop protss third going up, neither do you get an adventage in army. Its not a great build as you are IMO giving protoss a free third and have a hard time taking your own forth, but as every progamer uses it I assume its the best there is. | ||
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d_so
Korea (South)3262 Posts
On December 12 2008 00:51 OneOther wrote: actually, zerg getting a 4th base was never common in zvp. the counter to FE has always been to work with 3 bases, get enough hatcheries/drones/units (delay protoss third base as much as possible) and take the fourth when you can. you make it sound like zergs always took a 4th base but bisu changed it, when in fact it was always a risk and not many attempted it. zergs usually get punished by being greedy and taking a fourth, regardless of what the protoss chooses to do. i agree that zergs need to not take their fourth too quickly, but what do you say to this? ggplay does exactly everything you say: 3 bases, doesn't overexpand to 4 enough hatcheries :5 protoss at 2 bases the only problem is that ggplay does not have enough units to fend off the speedlot rush. in other words: at lair tech, ggplay invested heavily into capital goods (hatcheries, evo chamber, den and spire) and sacrificed unit count in the process. Yet even with such an aggressive investment in infrastructure, he tempered it a bit by staying at 3 bases, hoping that the close proximity of his three bases will fend off any early attack when the macro benefits of his investment choice kicked in. the OP is right in asking "what's happened to zvp". in simple words, zvp is changing. P is going to be far more aggressive now at two bases, and Z is going to have to find a way to match this. | ||
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GHOSTCLAW
United States17042 Posts
On December 12 2008 02:27 raga4ka wrote: Back in the days Savior did whatever he fucking wanted because he was TheMaestro Actually i think protoss were pretty clueless back then . Far more clueless then zergs are now i can't really explain it thought .Not really clueless, but it just seems like zerg had way too many adaptable builds. The key that bisu brought was the much much earlier second gas, which allows you to get tech, and that ever important first sair that lets you scout what type of lair tech zerg is going. Savior when he was dominant showed the adaptability of zerg by going 3 hat before pool when he wanted, all the way to the other side of the scale (3 hat ling). Too bad he can't exert his will on the game anymore. If anyone could be that dominant today, it could be july, at least with his ZvP. He is willing on any stage to pull off everything in the book- from a 3 hat hydra to a 5 pool to a sauron zerg game. | ||
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d_so
Korea (South)3262 Posts
On December 12 2008 02:18 tKd_ wrote: I truly believe its a scouting issue as crazy as it sounds. because zvp is becoming so timing-based in critical portions, if the zerg would know exactly what thhe toss was doing, he could go that path before wasting time building certain upgrades. the second option is to prevent a toss's third with 5 hatch ling/hydra lair delayed. then playing defensive after ur first attack. it can allow ur 4th. yeah as simple as it sounds, with the growing number of ways to PvZ, zerg really needs to scout better. in the game i posted above, if ggplay had identified the build he could have countered with a lurker build instead of getting a spire and a den uselessly | ||
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Fzero
United States1503 Posts
I think 2 base timing pushes might be the best strategy to stop the FE, but a longer term safer route hasn't really been established. I'm imagining that hydra/lurker is the correct unit combination, but zergs don't have the income to get a big enough hydra/lurker army by the push timing to stop it. Even if you go super greedy and the toss can't get a scout to see your fourth, I don't think you can drone up then army up in time to stop the push. The scourge/overlord/hydra/lurker contain with a tech to cracks/defilers is probably the best way to stop a toss 3rd-4th toss. Guards won't work effectively against the stargate opener they do. So.. we're left with early FE break or faster defilers to combat the blob that forms and stop toss from getting the gas to archon/goon/ht/obs you down. | ||
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QibingZero
2611 Posts
You know, I think some real studying needs to be done on this topic. I want to say it's the current maps, but I'm not sure that's 100% correct. It seems like JD was getting away with murder on some maps that were also supposed to be bad for ZvP. Mind you, that was after the Bisu and Savior phase, too. Now we have all these random protoss who gained recognition through Katrina coming back to own up the new set of maps, and no Jaedong, July, or Savior to stop them. Not only that, we don't even have the 'consistent but never champion' zergs just to thin the ranks of protoss before eventually losing to a terran. I just hope someone steps it up. Personally, I think it's most likely that Jaedong or GGPlay does, but we'll see. | ||
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0xDEADBEEF
Germany1235 Posts
On December 12 2008 03:48 QibingZero wrote: You know, I think some real studying needs to be done on this topic. I want to say it's the current maps, but I'm not sure that's 100% correct. It's almost impossible to say what the problem is exactly. It could be maps, it could be P players genuinely being better than the Z players (both in the foreign scene and in Korea), it could be P being genuinely imbalanced and P players finally being good enough with timing and multitasking in order to exploit this, or it could be that Z is genuinely too hard to play so that there's never a solid play like the other 2 races can enjoy all the time - either you adapt *perfectly* and crush your opponent, or you die to timing attack or rush (or at least you're weakened so much that you'll get rolled over later). Whatever the case... one thing is undeniable: current statistics say that P>Z, and this should not be. There could be one, maybe two Ps being so much better than the rest that he really deserves his position (like Savior was for Zerg in 2006), but with current Protosses it's like 5 or 6 players crammed at the top who are so fucking good that they rape anyone (outside Korea it's the same - just think of JF Nony WhiteRa Cloud), this makes it UNLIKELY that they're all so damn skilled that they deserve to be there, instead I assume they're only there because the maps favor P currently. And not only that, even unknown Protosses are so good that they steal a win from MUCH better players surprisingly often. So yeah, something is most likely wrong, but it's impossible to prove what the cause is. I'd suggest that Korean map makers design future maps in a non-P friendly way, and then see how it turns out - probably it'll be more balanced again, so more Zs and Ts will be seen again. I mean we even had maps like Monty Hall and Requiem recently (Requiem still current), so obviously it shouldn't be a problem to make a map where Protoss sucks on for a change. Whiners can be ignored if the statistics show an improvement in balance. | ||
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d_so
Korea (South)3262 Posts
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Liquid`Ret
Netherlands4511 Posts
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Infundibulum
United States2552 Posts
On December 12 2008 04:12 d_so wrote: you know what's funny? as for the speedlot archon rush, the most direct counter is ensnare... perhaps Chill's dream of professional queen use will finally see the light of day :p | ||
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d_so
Korea (South)3262 Posts
On December 12 2008 04:17 ret wrote: patch 1.16 should have made morphing 2 templars to an archon cost an additional 300 minerals they should lower spawn broodling to 100 mana. | ||
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EscPlan9
United States2777 Posts
I imagine it starts with the standard FE, fast corsairs for harass, then immediately techs to speedlots and archons with citadel and temp archive. Then gogogo after the first archons are warped in? | ||
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d_so
Korea (South)3262 Posts
On December 12 2008 05:06 EscPlan9 wrote: I've heard a lot about the PvZ speedlot and archon timing push, but can't find any replays where this happens. Could someone shed some light on how this works out and a replay if possible? I imagine it starts with the standard FE, fast corsairs for harass, then immediately techs to speedlots and archons with citadel and temp archive. Then gogogo after the first archons are warped in? look at the previous page. or look up horang2 vs ggplay @ destination from MST | ||
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EscPlan9
United States2777 Posts
I also cannot find any replays of that game (searched here and GosuGamers). I find it much more difficult to learn from VODs than replays if you meant a VOD for it, which I'm sure I can find. | ||
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QibingZero
2611 Posts
You often see zergs bring an overlord back into the protoss base right around key tech time to see what's going on. The sacrifice is necessary, because protoss can pretty much go in any direction they want once the natural is relatively secure. Seeing a corsair over your base doesn't even mean all that much anymore. There's just so much a protoss can do behind that 2base wall, and the zerg needs every bit of vision they can get (seeing the forge with lings, while seeing the advanced tech with the kamikaze overlord). | ||
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d_so
Korea (South)3262 Posts
On December 12 2008 05:48 EscPlan9 wrote: I actually read all four pages... I must have missed it. I checked again on the last page and don't see any mention of it. There's a short VOD of a speedlot and 1 archon attacking around 8minutes into the game - that's all I'm really seeing. The archon gets killed quickly and then its just all speedlots from then on. What'd I miss? I also cannot find any replays of that game (searched here and GosuGamers). I find it much more difficult to learn from VODs than replays if you meant a VOD for it, which I'm sure I can find. o sorry, you meant replay. yeah that's just the vod. as for the action, it doesn't stop there. the zealot just keep coming in... the notable thing about it is the relentlessness of the toss | ||
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d(O.o)a
Canada5066 Posts
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sixghost
United States2096 Posts
On December 12 2008 04:12 d_so wrote: you know what's funny? as for the speedlot archon rush, the most direct counter is ensnare... How can you tech to queens by the time the +1 zealot archon comes | ||
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d(O.o)a
Canada5066 Posts
On December 12 2008 06:20 lgdDante wrote: How can you tech to queens by the time the +1 zealot archon comes It is actually about the same timing. | ||
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d_so
Korea (South)3262 Posts
On December 12 2008 06:20 lgdDante wrote: How can you tech to queens by the time the +1 zealot archon comes the first wave of speedlots/templar is not the problem. it's hard to fight off, sure, but it's the reinforcements that are the issue. so don't get spire, don't get more than 4 hatch. go hydra and queen after lair. fend off the first of speedlot wave, keep the queens nest intact while having ensnare upgraded. send out the queen and then slow the reinforcements. this should give z time to make units also, toss won't have speed and +1 simultaneously. crazy strat, maybe, but it's gotta be better than what zergs are doing now | ||
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Zapdos_Smithh
Canada2620 Posts
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sixghost
United States2096 Posts
On December 12 2008 06:40 d_so wrote: the first wave of speedlots/templar is not the problem. it's hard to fight off, sure, but it's the reinforcements that are the issue. so don't get spire, don't get more than 4 hatch. go hydra and queen after lair. fend off the first of speedlot wave, keep the queens nest intact while having ensnare upgraded. send out the queen and then slow the reinforcements. this should give z time to make units also, toss won't have speed and +1 simultaneously. crazy strat, maybe, but it's gotta be better than what zergs are doing now seems a little weird I think the slightly outdated double evo lurk ling build would be better suited to fight this | ||
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R3condite
Korea (South)1541 Posts
On December 11 2008 18:22 Plexa wrote: Zergs are too scared to take their 4th after Bisu's Dt/Sair abuse which controlled excessive expos. However, this forces zergs to fight 3 base vs 2 base which overall sucks (as its in reality 2 gas vs 2 gas). TAKE YOUR GODDAM 4TH EXPANSION FASTER ZERG iono lately i've been seeing lot of balls in moves by the pro zergs taking massive amount of expos... though lot of the times it seems to come back to hurt em... | ||
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Velr
Switzerland10637 Posts
ZvP fight... Z has enough Hydras. P does his new found Zeal/Archon and a bit later Temp push. Z is doing good until he is kinda in a corner (be it at his 3d or 4th)... Then the Hydradancing becomes impossible/inneffective and a few storms really *hit* because tehre is just no room left, Look Bisu vs Calm - most recent game... Calms army was big enough at all stages.. he just once moved into the wrong direction and it was over, the reinforcments of Bisu just crushed everything Calm could do from there. It's like reversed... A long time it was: P loses his army, he's nearly dead... Now it's.. Zerg makes a mistake, he's dead. The diffrence? A Protoss needs a few good Storms/good Position to waste an *even* Zerg army whitout a problem. If the Zerg gets into the corner ONCE in midgame the game is over, if it does not happens Zerg still often wins. I just think Z is now *harder* than P, like Z is kinda harder vs T. If the Z executes flawless it looks *easy* and *balanced* if he does one mistake, he's dead... Thats the diffrence between now and 1 year ago. They key will probably be to just keep Protoss occupied on oppen space, no matter what. As soon as the Toss gets to were he wants to push, it's over. Well, thats just my newbiesh view of the recent events... And i hate the recent events ^^ | ||
cgrinker
United States3824 Posts
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Ideas
United States8075 Posts
On December 12 2008 08:35 Velr wrote: What ive seen is.. ZvP fight... Z has enough Hydras. P does his new found Zeal/Archon and a bit later Temp push. Z is doing good until he is kinda in a corner (be it at his 3d or 4th)... Then the Hydradancing becomes impossible/inneffective and a few storms really *hit* because tehre is just no room left, Look Bisu vs Calm - most recent game... Calms army was big enough at all stages.. he just once moved into the wrong direction and it was over, the reinforcments of Bisu just crushed everything Calm could do from there. It's like reversed... A long time it was: P loses his army, he's nearly dead... Now it's.. Zerg makes a mistake, he's dead. The diffrence? A Protoss needs a few good Storms/good Position to waste an *even* Zerg army whitout a problem. If the Zerg gets into the corner ONCE in midgame the game is over, if it does not happens Zerg still often wins. I just think Z is now *harder* than P, like Z is kinda harder vs T. If the Z executes flawless it looks *easy* and *balanced* if he does one mistake, he's dead... Thats the diffrence between now and 1 year ago. They key will probably be to just keep Protoss occupied on oppen space, no matter what. As soon as the Toss gets to were he wants to push, it's over. Well, thats just my newbiesh view of the recent events... And i hate the recent events ^^ I think the calm vs bisu game shows a good point that when (at least against avery good PvZ such as bisu) that pretty much a Zerg cannot beat a protoss if they are both left to their will for the 1st 10 mins. Basically in that game neither player was aggressive until the midgame push by Bisu. And especially on a map like Medusa where there is a free 3rd min-only, protoss > zerg in eco and army. Zerg pretty much NEED to be aggressive to keep the protoss in check. It seems that a very passive style just doesn't work any more (I can't think of many games at all where the Zerg didn't win by being aggressive in the early-mid game). | ||
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ZERG_RUSSIAN
10417 Posts
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MrHoon
10183 Posts
After hearing what the OGN said about ZvP imbalance these days is that they (IE NOT ME, DONT CALL ME A FAGIT) mention not map, but the real reason why ZvP seems imbalance is because of mineral patches. To quote Kim "Carry" a loved OGN commentator Alot of zerg players and watchers believe that "Zerg can only win if they get more expos than the protoss player" however this is false in every way. Just because a Zerg has more expos than the protoss is not the real solution to do this. The only solution is a) deny the protoss from getting their 3rd expansion or b) lower the number of mineral patches in starting bases like old maps. Long ago when people claimed Zerg was superior in ZvP there were many matches where protoss won just barely because they were mining an extra mineral patch | ||
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AttackZerg
United States7454 Posts
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MrHoon
10183 Posts
On December 12 2008 19:26 AttackZerg wrote: I think lower value mineral patches have been a huge balance problem in starcraft for a long time,1500? .. why .... because blizzard picked it .... hmm When it came to maps they weren't (for the most part) all that great. A main with mineral patches that are 1000 with 3 bases could very well balance everything PvT ... instead of P gets to take every base , he HAS too and ZvP zerg would have to expo more also because they couldn't count on having 4 or even 5 mining bases at once , if the game gets to lategame. Although this might mean Z rapes T mercilessly. no no not the mineral count the amount of patches IE instead of 8, give 6 | ||
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AttackZerg
United States7454 Posts
Not that I can't say it isn't possible, he is correct, I just have always thought about mineral patch values and then after your post felt compeled to post it  . | ||
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Guybrush
Spain4744 Posts
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born-to-porn
Denmark400 Posts
The key word when using hydra/lurker must have to be pressure. Constantly force the protoss to fight in the open and make sure that you never have to retreat back to your own choke, which will buy toss time to setup an expansion. | ||
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AttackZerg
United States7454 Posts
Which is a result of protoss playing a very ground heavy style. Problems? They loss tech/economy/grades benefits? ... they not might die in 11 minutes. Modern protoss is forcing zerg to make hydras, which ... well there is a reason zergs weren't going pure 5 hat hydra against the 'bisu build' in the first place. Zerg on the pro level very shortly will resort back to what jaedong WAS doing and effort IS doing, scourge opening/lurker opening dual into hydra/ling/lurker defensive/harrassment army, into 4th-5th bases. Its just a more ackward harder to time style of play, but it has become nessasary, except on maps where mass hydra/lurker are obviously strong like destination and to some degree bluestorm. That or even more hopefully maybe a similar style that jaedong used on othello against bisus dt first ground heavy army 4 hat lair ->hydraspeed-lingspeed-oviespeed then dual lurker/muta tech save up WAY much and make 4 lurkers and then rapidly produce 8-9 muta and used your hydra/ling/lurker/muta army to push toss all the way into his natural while you get a 4th(6th hat), which even if it becomes popular again will see a resurgance of dt/sair play and round and round we go. | ||
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MadNeSs
Denmark1507 Posts
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JohnBall
Brazil1272 Posts
Im new around here, so I'm just going to ask one thing: why are you calling July "Tushin"? does it mean "July" in corean? Also, is there an english VOD for those matches? I would be very interested in learning how to rape protoss with zerg in at least one map  | ||
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StRyKeR
United States1739 Posts
the Chinese characters work out to "tu" = war, "shin" = God | ||
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Durak
Canada3684 Posts
On December 12 2008 19:20 MrHoon wrote: (wow I posted this in a different thread, reposting it here) After hearing what the OGN said about ZvP imbalance these days is that they (IE NOT ME, DONT CALL ME A FAGIT) mention not map, but the real reason why ZvP seems imbalance is because of mineral patches. To quote Kim "Carry" a loved OGN commentator That's a pretty good theory. I'm sure that has some effect on the matchup. Thanks for posting that. | ||
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JohnBall
Brazil1272 Posts
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monstar123
United States516 Posts
His every MU become awful. But July never went into a slump,his zvp has always been on of the best zvp ,but his zvz and zvt are equal to 2005-2006 years | ||
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monstar123
United States516 Posts
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