Protoss imbalance has gone TOO FAR. - Page 17

On August 24 2008 02:24 Chill wrote:

god

why is it always the kids with <200 posts?

On August 23 2008 04:01 SiegeTanksandBlueGoo wrote:


lol, beat one without using a mouse or a touchpad and I'll give you a dollar. ^^

On August 23 2008 02:28 Gaetele wrote:
Now I'm tired of losing to stupid D- Protosses on iCCup. I'm a level C Zerg, dammit.
This is getting friggin' ridiculous. People say that the races are balanced, but there's no way it
is even looked at properly by Blizzard. Once Corsairs get into groups above 8 or so, even
a hundred Scourge won't manage to take out one. That's just retarded. I mean, look at the
story. Zerg are the race that just totally take out all groups in terms of numbers, but
all of the Protoss units have retarded AoE splash that just tears through my units one by one.
About 8000 Zerglings or Scourge have died in my game to Archons, Templars and Corsairs.
How is this even remotely balanced!?

On August 23 2008 02:30 Chill wrote:
My thoughts are pretty back and forth on this issue; I mean, although I usually have been joking all my
life, Protoss is no easier than the other races. I really do believe that with the final changes Brood War
got in 1.08, all races have the same potential and it comes down to player error. Remember how PvZ
flipped its imbalance after FE and Bisu build became standard? I think many strategies have really
turned the game around multiple times, as well as player execution. I think a really big
upside to this thread is that it's going to make people finally put their blame of maps and imbalance
down and focus on their own mistakes.

On August 23 2008 02:39 Gaetele wrote:

Now I don't think you're in a position to talk. What's your rank on iCCup?
I'd venture to guess no higher than D level. How would I get to C without facing P?
Like everyone on iCCup is P. You can't rise in the ranks without facing one. Don't jump
to conclusions like that. It doesn't have to do with my own skill - it just happens to
take no skill to properly play Protoss. I mean, not even an huge Ultraling army can take
a similarly sized Protoss army head on. We also have to manage larva, and it takes Protoss a
minute to completely remacro their army from their 50 Gateways (hi fOrU!)


Just nerf Protoss and all their overpowered tech because all their players have to do is
sit at the keyboard and roll their face over the hotkeys to win. This just isn't
right. I've even seen a game where a Protoss managed to outexpand a Zerg!
There isn't even a logical explanation for that. What mobility?

On August 23 2008 02:59 Chill wrote:
I'll answer that, even though I don't play Protoss. There are certain ZvP timings you have to get used to;
tell yourself when you're going to be moving out or staying defensive. I think the problem might be that
you haven't gotten used to playing defensively at certain points and aggressively at others. I do think
how you do this basically shapes your success at ZvP. You can't mindlessly a-move units out (though
I often advocate that) because you'll get cut up by storms and cannons. During TSL this is how I
became a fairly decent ZvT player, and I think it's some advice that anyone can apply to the game. Yep
the main thing to remember here is to play defensively with Lurkers, treat your Scourge like they're a
Prince of Dubai, they are that important! Use the LurkerLing combination to defend; Scourge take care
of his Observers. The key is not to leave any part of your army isolated... I honestly do think that when
a Zerg army can flank it's the strongest army in the game, but I mean if you screw up and go noob
town on it and things come in piecemeal (spelling?) then that's obviously not going to work. It's just
called basic micro and tactics. -_- I think this should let you move to the late game, where Ultras can
bel enough to finish him with simple UltraLing. But remember you really cannot be a simple, mindless
air head with UltraLing in modern ZvP; use Defilers!

On August 23 2008 03:22 Gaetele wrote:

In ZvP, Corsairs just fly around and snipe your Overlords, destroying any sort of sight you have. Even
West and East scrubs still manage to beat me occasionally in PvZ (Koreans...) It's like going to
Philadelphia and then getting shot while at the Liberty Bell - it's that painful. Poor Zerglings, just being
born to get cut down in the prime of their life without even touching anything.


And who are you to criticize my fundamentals without having any proof? I worked hard and finally
raised my level of play, gaming in TSL and Spirit. It's just that Protoss can win the game by turning SC
on. I admit I'm not the best player out there, but I'm not 4pooling my way to B+. There are people on
the ladder that shouldn't be that high.


Playground mentality, imo. Just because something is hard to believe doesn't mean that it's not true. It
is not that hard to believe that some people are just bad at something - look at Casy. Remember back
where he won an OSL? He's horrible at TvP. Oh wait. It must be because Protoss is imba, even vs. T!

I am not the only one who thinks so, I'm sure. I keep on practicing, practicing but still. I must have
spent thousands of hours on this game but I still can't figure out this problem. It can't be my fault. And
most of my friends play Protoss, with their 80 APM, but they beat me. Two of them combined is half
of my APM. My multitask and macro are far above theirs but it still just isn't enough! The storm kills
my entire army, and then the HTs just become Archons. My Overlords run but still see the end of their
days to the ever-present Corsairs.

On August 23 2008 03:43 Chill wrote:


Chillin' is what you should do, kid, because you're about to get banned for trolling. As for Gatele, you're
out of your mind man. You haven't cited anything from outside of the game. You should spend time
maxin' your APM and strategy, instead of wasting your time crying. I do think it's actually kind of
relaxin' to see all the people finally standing up and saying that PvZ is balanced. It is truly funny to see
all the newbies come out of the woodwork to start complaining; I mean. although I actually find it really
cool that there are so many differing opinions, only the "balanced" ones bring logical facts.



And facts like this are what makes this argument impossible. We're talking about the D foreigner level,
all the facts about the fucking ZvP Bonjwa are useless. I'm starting to consider that some people are
shootin' for a flame war, I don't know, but why are you brining these facts in? Can we go back and talk
some about the fundamentals of the game? We can compare this to examining the highest level of
b-ball; you wouldn't start copying Shaq because you can't play at his level. Well, looking at people
outside of Korea you quickly we can't play at Savior, Jaedong or JulyZerg's levels. I mean, some people
of considerable talent can do some moves like them. I think foreigners still really cannot come close to
the complete package. Now, I think a good idea is to go back to basic: Seriously, can we follow my
school of thought and start examining the game, not the players?

On August 23 2008 03:59 Gaetele wrote:

When will people stop patronizing me? Calling me newbie and everything. It's just ridiculous. I can't be
a C level if I were totally newb. I think I've made my point pretty clearly in this thread. Just go play a
couple of games and you would understand where I'm coming from. If people would stop citing the level
of skill of progamers then we could get to the real problem - balance.

Guys that you pull off the street could probably sit down to a computer and play Protoss in SC. Boxer,
who is great at Terran, started Protoss because it was the easiest. This won't reach a conclusion if it
were up to Blizzard's developers. I'm not hired as a game designer, but I think that if it were completely
up to me, I would just remove High Templars and Corsairs from the game. Unfortunately, it looks like,
to the Blizzard developers, they don't listen to the community.

No company should just blatantly disregard the problems in front of them. Not to say that Blizzard isn't
good, but look at how much whining there is on the WoW forums. Every single thread created there is
started fine, but I never see a blue post about anything meaningful.

Making a good, balanced game requires input from the community, and I don't think it should be a
trouble for Blizzard to do so. All they really have to do at the end of the day is to tweak some numbers
in the code and then remove some and it'll be fine.

My main problem is with threads like this - people always feel the need to argue back and forth. In the
neighborhood of TeamLiquid, all the houses would be throwing flaming napalm at each other. Flame on!

On August 23 2008 04:34 IntoTheWow wrote:
I truly think people are bashing the maps a lot and forget about the people playing the game. You've
got to change your way of playing? Well, Do so and stop blaming the maps for your mistakes. I think
in retrospect the maps being accepted nowadays aren't really bad. Considering old maps, I can think of
one map of the current ones being imba maybe. The rest may only need some minor modifications, a
little tweaking on rushing distances, some cliffs that can be abused. Just make the map so players
fight more and camp less. I don't think people really enjoy players turtling in their bases for 40 minutes
and stalling the game to abuse imbalance like on Blue Storm. Remember the observers' point of view.

My main concern right now are how the games play out. You get rushed a lot PvZ? Go cry at your
mom protoss bastard. Every race has concerns on maps. Terran have early game weaknesses, Zergs
got cliffs and loads more stuff to worry about than Protoss. So stop always playing like you are
scared of coming out. Play like a man and maybe then you will in a game. Maybe.

On August 23 2008 04:45 Chill wrote:

She said you should move to an industrialized country and learn logic. Anyways, it seems what I've
said time and time again keeps getting ignored, so I'll repeat it one more time:

"You're not going to get any good out of progamer level analysis." Seriously. You should stop. Keep
movin' forward with this discussion by dropping the highest-level discussion and simply continue on
with the discussion of the game fundamentals.

Your (the pro-imbalance side of this discussion) arguments have really fallen flat, time and time again.
Auntie Helvetica is bringing up Boxer? What the fuck dude, what does Boxer have to do with Protoss
and Zerg imbalance? Nothing, that's what. There comes a time when people should just stop, say
uncle and move forward.

In closing, as I don't think I'll be in this thread anymore, let's mention the distribution in Europe (Ger Ita
Bel Fra etc.). Look at the best players in these countries. Look here, anyone who's head isn't "full of
air" should be able to see there's always been equally strong Protoss and Zergs.

On August 23 2008 04:54 Gaetele wrote:
I think we should stop talking about BoxeR. He's a has-been, it's over for him. It's about time we
whistled his swan song. Just another victim to the Protoss imbalance that faces Terran. If it were not
for that race, perhaps we'd have more dominant Zergs besides July. Too long have we been tormented;
a plague of down-syndrome newbies who pick the best looking race. With their stupid crystal Pylons,
cab yellow Nexuses and Stargateways or whatever.

And when the day of Starcraft 2 comes, it doesn't look like there will be any change. Stalkers will blink
when Zealots charge, and the Zerg army's mobility will be crushed even further. Now comes the time -
it will be stagnant, and there will be naught but mirrors online, the Protoss wave crushing those who
came new to the game. People will try the other races, sure, and they will fail. This horrid epoch draws
near, if it hasn't arrived already.

The Protoss armies, with their new shiny contraptions, will clash. Terran drivers will hang up their
license and resort to a life of drinking heavily. The Zerg's sharp claws, corrosive acid and chitinous
plate will become old and unused, unable to cut through Protoss armor.

Said time is upon us already and we are powerless to stop it. The game will become boring. No more
fresh faces or strategies on the board. It will be 1a2a3a forever. The horrendous villains of SC, the Zerg,
and the survivors amongst all odds will find themselves at the wayside.

It will never be the same game. The Jaedong and Flash will be gone, replaced by the Stork and Jangbi.
Had Blizzard only listened to the roar of the crowd! But it is too late, all other players said "Nope. No
dice." and left the game forever, never to look back. A few lone players try playing the other races, all
in a separate channel on B.Net quarantined for them. They're soon dealt with.

The game sells its copies, for sure, but all the players return to Starcraft 1, imba as it is. Tired of the
mirror, Terran and Zerg will play SC1 freely, away from the tyranny of the Protoss who moved to SC2.

On August 23 2008 05:10 Chill wrote:
If something could draw me back into this thread, it's a fucking retarded poster like Gaetele. Seriously.
Anything this kid says it's retarded. He's already solved SC2 when he hasn't even played it... Why is it
I get the feeling, over and over, like I am the only person trying to have a serious discussion; I'm sure I
can say without a doubt these kids are just looking for an excuse to troll. Why is it you think you can
say Boxer isn't dominant because Protoss is easy? Look at the winners of the leagues; because really
this I am certain of - There have been fewer Protoss winners than any other race. Why don't you take a
cab to the library and read some book on evidence, because you're just making up whatever seems it
is convenient to support your argument. Look, having a Protoss major league winner is actually super
rare, so why do you talk about it like it's commonplace?

But I want to turn my attention back to the original point.

I want to talk about it fundamentally. Is Protoss a simpler race than Zerg? I think mechanically (or I
thought before this thread was started) are simpler than Zerg, but the lack of scouting makes up for it.
Now, is the deficiencies in scouting enough to make up for the simplcity in mechanics? Also, we can't
forget the difference in tactics, Zerg has more mobility and map control while the Protoss has to forfeit
it and keep their army all together.

Yo can't really look at these races as the sum of parts. It's not like "well fuck dude, he has archons but
holmes over there has ultras and ultras > archons so z > p." It doesn't work like that. True balance has
to consider every aspect of the matchup.

Bel that as it may, we're not going to solve it here. These people would rather float in the god damned
air all day than get a true discussion going.

On August 23 2008 05:17 Gaetele wrote:
I think you guys have lost the point of this thread - the balance. The point of conversation has been
pulled far too thin among all the flame wars, especially to me. I don't know what you posters are getting
up to, but I will stand firm on my stance. Protoss imba, nerf plz.

To many others, it may seem like I'm trolling, but I assure you, I'm dead serious. This stupid race is
the one thing that has gotten me truly angry about this game. I have played your pubs. I have played in
house games as well, clan wars etc. I'm not horrible, but you guys think I am without warrant.

About 80% of you think I'm totally retarded, and all I have to say is **** you. Go run around with your
seven million HP Zealots or whatever because you're all stupid Protoss scum. You're probably gaming
or masturbating while posting because your race is just that damn easy. "Durf hurr, build the Pylon at
8, make Gateway, win hurf durr." Good job. You hit one of the 5 buttons on the keyboard that aren't 'a'
and you must feel so accomplished about yourself.

I don't see how some of you people are so blind. Maybe you're just fine with not having any skill. You're
yelled at by your parents and friends and you don't care because you like how easy you have it. Have
to have it the easy way, don't you? I can hit 1a2a3a too but I decide not to because I want a challenge.

The upbringing you must have had is great too. Probably rich and spoiled just like the Protoss are.
Cabbie to drive you home and back from school or whatever, nose turned up in the air. People scream
"Yo! You dropped your watch!" but it's ok, you can just buy a new one.

Home's probably a great place too. You don't have any chores or anything - your maid's got that. If the
smell in your house isn't perfect then you can just find a new one, right?

You Protoss players and blind non-Protoss players are retarded and disgust me. When SC2 comes
later and you all lose like I do, you'll come whining to me and I'll just flip you off.

On August 23 2008 05:33 Chill wrote:
I think this is it. Now it's full out trolling. When this discussion originally began, to me at least, it sorta
looked like a potential to finally get the PvZ stigmas out in the open. Here we're now standing together,
at the apex of this glorious thread. And some of you are left wondering "How could Teamliquid close
my thread but this garbage is still open?." Well, the truth is Protoss is an easy race. For example,
Kingdom, is a garbage Protoss who got to the top with simple things a monkey could do.

I have let fly with the painful arrows of truth. If you can hit 1a2a3a4a5a6a you can play Protoss, but that
was inevitably going to come out. But it feels good, to be done with this thread, and we reach the end;
finally, you will be turned onto what thine eyes hath missed. Open this thread in Mozilla Firefox, and
there before you, at the first of every new line, shall appear a glorious mesasge.

On August 23 2008 05:33 Chill wrote:
To sit on my throne as the Prince of Bel Air.

On August 23 2008 04:05 SonuvBob wrote:
Terrans just don't understand.

On August 24 2008 08:29 Sp1ralArch1tect wrote:
I have teh same problem. Everytime I play against Protoss they have the same damn units as me! WHAT THE FUCK! Protoss is IMBA cuz they copy my BO everytime i play them and Tassadar is by far the coolest hero which makes them even more imba.

Seriously this has been beaten to death, before Bisu Z was imba now everyone just cries there little eyes out about how hard it is to beat Protoss.

Seriously does nobody understand yet? This game is as close to balanced as any has ever come, your just a noob.

QQ more plz