Now I'm tired of losing to stupid D- Protosses on iCCup. I'm a level C Zerg, dammit. This is getting friggin' ridiculous. People say that the races are balanced, but there's no way it is even looked at properly by Blizzard. Once Corsairs get into groups above 8 or so, even a hundred Scourge won't manage to take out one. That's just retarded. I mean, look at the story. Zerg are the race that just totally take out all groups in terms of numbers, but all of the Protoss units have retarded AoE splash that just tears through my units one by one. About 8000 Zerglings or Scourge have died in my game to Archons, Templars and Corsairs. How is this even remotely balanced!?
My thoughts are pretty back and forth on this issue; I mean, although I usually have been joking all my life, Protoss is no easier than the other races. I really do believe that with the final changes Brood War got in 1.08, all races have the same potential and it comes down to player error. Remember how PvZ flipped its imbalance after FE and Bisu build became standard? I think many strategies have really turned the game around multiple times, as well as player execution. I think a really big upside to this thread is that it's going to make people finally put their blame of maps and imbalance down and focus on their own mistakes.
On August 23 2008 02:31 Phoned wrote: how are you C if you lose to D- protoss? Only play TvZ and ZvZ? I wouldn't say you are a full-fledged C if that's the case.
Now I don't think you're in a position to talk. What's your rank on iCCup? I'd venture to guess no higher than D level. How would I get to C without facing P? Like everyone on iCCup is P. You can't rise in the ranks without facing one. Don't jump to conclusions like that. It doesn't have to do with my own skill - it just happens to take no skill to properly play Protoss. I mean, not even an huge Ultraling army can take a similarly sized Protoss army head on. We also have to manage larva, and it takes Protoss a minute to completely remacro their army from their 50 Gateways (hi fOrU!)
On August 23 2008 02:31 raiame wrote: If he uses his tech you should use your tech. Use mobility to your advantage. Harass him.
Just nerf Protoss and all their overpowered tech because all their players have to do is sit at the keyboard and roll their face over the hotkeys to win. This just isn't right. I've even seen a game where a Protoss managed to outexpand a Zerg! There isn't even a logical explanation for that. What mobility?
lol it's always been ZvP imbalance except for Bisu and Free, i bet they chill with each other singing it's just the two of us, we can pvz if we try, just the two of us building corsairs in the sky
edit: will ignorant lower level SCplayers mock imbalance till hell?
On August 23 2008 02:28 Gaetele wrote: About 8000 Zerglings or Scourge have died in my game to Archons, Templars and Corsairs. How is this even remotely balanced!?
It's not. That's why zerg has huge strategical and economical advantages over protoss.
On August 23 2008 02:28 Gaetele wrote: About 8000 Zerglings or Scourge have died in my game to Archons, Templars and Corsairs. How is this even remotely balanced!?
It's not. That's why zerg has huge strategical and economical advantages over protoss.
I'll answer that, even though I don't play Protoss. There are certain ZvP timings you have to get used to; tell yourself when you're going to be moving out or staying defensive. I think the problem might be that you haven't gotten used to playing defensively at certain points and aggressively at others. I do think how you do this basically shapes your success at ZvP. You can't mindlessly a-move units out (though I often advocate that) because you'll get cut up by storms and cannons. During TSL this is how I became a fairly decent ZvT player, and I think it's some advice that anyone can apply to the game. Yep the main thing to remember here is to play defensively with Lurkers, treat your Scourge like they're a Prince of Dubai, they are that important! Use the LurkerLing combination to defend; Scourge take care of his Observers. The key is not to leave any part of your army isolated... I honestly do think that when a Zerg army can flank it's the strongest army in the game, but I mean if you screw up and go noob town on it and things come in piecemeal (spelling?) then that's obviously not going to work. It's just called basic micro and tactics. -_- I think this should let you move to the late game, where Ultras can bel enough to finish him with simple UltraLing. But remember you really cannot be a simple, mindless air head with UltraLing in modern ZvP; use Defilers!
On August 23 2008 02:28 Gaetele wrote: Now I'm tired of losing to stupid D- Protosses on iCCup. I'm a level C Zerg, dammit. This is getting friggin' ridiculous. People say that the races are balanced, but there's no way it is even looked at properly by Blizzard. Once Corsairs get into groups above 8 or so, even a hundred Scourge won't manage to take out one. That's just retarded. I mean, look at the story. Zerg are the race that just totally take out all groups in terms of numbers, but all of the Protoss units have retarded AoE splash that just tears through my units one by one. About 8000 Zerglings or Scourge have died in my game to Archons, Templars and Corsairs. How is this even remotely balanced!?
it's rather balanced at pro level, so obviously you just suck at ZvP
I don't play zerg or protoss, but unless I misunderstand the matchup, if they're getting 8 corsairs then shouldn't you invest in maybe mutas with armor upgrade, or devourers? The balance remains in the fact that you can lose 50 scourge to 8 corsairs, and 15 seconds later have another 50 scourge ready again. Don't you think its a little imbalanced that 1 overlord full of cracklings can kill an entire protoss base in about 30 seconds? Just because 1 unit that is designed to do only air to air does good at air to air doesn't mean the matchup has any balance issues, you just have to counter his high corsair count with a better strategy.
On August 23 2008 02:28 Gaetele wrote: Now I'm tired of losing to stupid D- Protosses on iCCup. I'm a level C Zerg, dammit. This is getting friggin' ridiculous. People say that the races are balanced, but there's no way it is even looked at properly by Blizzard. Once Corsairs get into groups above 8 or so, even a hundred Scourge won't manage to take out one. That's just retarded. I mean, look at the story. Zerg are the race that just totally take out all groups in terms of numbers, but all of the Protoss units have retarded AoE splash that just tears through my units one by one. About 8000 Zerglings or Scourge have died in my game to Archons, Templars and Corsairs. How is this even remotely balanced!?
it's rather balanced at pro level, so obviously you just suck at ZvP
It isn't balanced at all. Bisu was never good, he was just lucky to discover an imba build.
On August 23 2008 02:28 Gaetele wrote: Now I'm tired of losing to stupid D- Protosses on iCCup. I'm a level C Zerg, dammit. This is getting friggin' ridiculous. People say that the races are balanced, but there's no way it is even looked at properly by Blizzard. Once Corsairs get into groups above 8 or so, even a hundred Scourge won't manage to take out one. That's just retarded. I mean, look at the story. Zerg are the race that just totally take out all groups in terms of numbers, but all of the Protoss units have retarded AoE splash that just tears through my units one by one. About 8000 Zerglings or Scourge have died in my game to Archons, Templars and Corsairs. How is this even remotely balanced!?
it's rather balanced at pro level, so obviously you just suck at ZvP
It isn't balanced at all. Bisu was never good, he was just lucky to discover an imba build.
As a Terran player I find that I need a much high APM to beat similar leveled Protoss opponents... Their macro is much easier, the cheeses are very easy to pull off, and even arbiters/carriers aren't that hard to use compared to the multi-tasking Terran (or Zerg) has to do.
However, I don't acknowledge that the game is imbalanced. Balance is determined when the best players in the world push the game to its limits and explore all the possibilities. And as far as that goes, the game is balanced fine.
But anyways, I remember a while back I couldn't beat any Protoss players. So what I did was I went over a bunch of replays (mine, as well as from other high level players) and I aimed to re-invent how I played TvP. I learned new build orders, timings, and I even started using different hotkeys to optimize my macro. I think you should try something similar.
I'm not a ZvP expert, but if there's a build I think Zerg players should be doing right now it's the one that Julyzerg used against Best in game 3. Mass scourges + air armour upgrades. Also, if they're D level and you're C, you have the multi-tasking to add burrowed Hydras to your game most likely (Jaedong style). Anyways what I'm saying is that rethinking how you play a certain match-up, from scratch, could really help out. I know when I did it I dropped a few bad habits and picked up some good ones (timing, upgrades, etc).
Good luck OP, hope you find it in you to overcome those Protoss!
On August 23 2008 03:05 EtherealDeath wrote: Clearly the OP is exaggerating, cause I'm one of those no-skill Protii who play Zerg against Protoss and doesn't lose to D- Nubtii.
yeah, seriously, if you're losing to D- level protosses, then you are not a C level zerg. Period. I'm a C- level protoss and PvZ guessing his tech is hard as shit expecially when he copies the koreans and gest both spire and hydra den. Double Den Hydra break or Mutalisks. For protoss, if you guess wrong (or if you're a good player, you didn't scout it out completely) you are completely fucked. Gamer-ender style. If you're zerg, you know wha the's making. There's no need to guess anything other than maybe dt/sair or reaver sair, neither of which is a game ender. There's no need to bitch about ZvP.
On another note. Fuck, TvP is dumb. All these protosses that I would stomp in pvp just own me so hard in tvp. ^^;; I guess I just suck at terran.
On August 23 2008 03:07 SiegeTanksandBlueGoo wrote: yeah, seriously, if you're losing to D- level protosses, then you are not a C level zerg. Period. I'm a C- level protoss and PvZ guessing his tech is hard as shit expecially when he copies the koreans and gest both spire and hydra den. Double Den Hydra break or Mutalisks. For protoss, if you guess wrong (or if you're a good player, you didn't scout it out completely) you are completely fucked. Gamer-ender style. If you're zerg, you know wha the's making. There's no need to guess anything other than maybe dt/sair or reaver sair, neither of which is a game ender. There's no need to bitch about ZvP.
On another note. Fuck, TvP is dumb. All these protosses that I would stomp in pvp just own me so hard in tvp. ^^;; I guess I just suck at terran.
Who cares?
Either way go sair reaver, and if your A key is attached you should win every time.
On August 23 2008 02:46 Haemonculus wrote: As a terran player, I rather routinely get out-macro'd by dumb easy-mode protoss. T_T;;
I have a problem with C level protosses, they are just good enough to have solid macro and micro then the unit IMBA comes in. Maybe i should just go tornado Terran every time. But I know what the OP means, sometimes it just seems imbalanced but its your fault.
On August 23 2008 03:07 SiegeTanksandBlueGoo wrote: yeah, seriously, if you're losing to D- level protosses, then you are not a C level zerg. Period. I'm a C- level protoss and PvZ guessing his tech is hard as shit expecially when he copies the koreans and gest both spire and hydra den. Double Den Hydra break or Mutalisks. For protoss, if you guess wrong (or if you're a good player, you didn't scout it out completely) you are completely fucked. Gamer-ender style. If you're zerg, you know wha the's making. There's no need to guess anything other than maybe dt/sair or reaver sair, neither of which is a game ender. There's no need to bitch about ZvP.
On another note. Fuck, TvP is dumb. All these protosses that I would stomp in pvp just own me so hard in tvp. ^^;; I guess I just suck at terran.
Who cares?
Either way go sair reaver, and if your A key is attached you should win every time.
You are a very angry young man.
Leveling accuasations at every person who dares to disagree with you. You are clearly not interested in having a discussion, you are just interested in bitching. I think that this particular bitching session would be more appropriate as a blog.
I don't suppose that you could take a step back from your hubris to aknowledge that as a C level zerg you might not know everything about the game, and that there might be a flaw in your game. No I suppose that is too much to hope for.
ZvP may be imbalance, lord if I know, but I do know that you are uninterested in any real discussion on the matter.
I can't tell if this is a serious rant or not. I don't think there is an imbalance in terms of: protoss can get something and there is nothing Zerg can do about it. But the game is imbalanced in that difference races require different levels of skill to be competent or good, depending on the matchup.
Some random things I've been thinking about:
I do think it's interesting that anything below the Pro level, Protoss dominates and that there has been a plethora of very strong players who are actually stronger in PvZ than PvT, such as Nony, Dreiven and JF. I remember that in a Nony FPVOD on Python (2 gate tech build), Nony said that his particular build just demonstrates an advantage that Protoss has over Zerg in that he could both build up and tech at the same time while zerg is forced to decide whether to tech or build up. This doesn't mean that there is an imbalance per se, because if the zerg makes the right decisions, then he very well may come out on top but making those right decisions would take more skill than playing Protoss where you can just do both at the same time and the only issue is just executing it. I also think it's noteworthy that players like JF and Dreiven have consistently been beating Zergs, including Mondragon, but have struggled against good terran players. However, it is noteworthy that alot of the matches have been played on maps like Wuthering heights and Blue storm, which some may consider to be a good ZvP map but watching relatively recent pro games on that map, I'm inclined to think otherwise. I actually think the foreign Terran scene is finally starting to catch up and the "balance" that you see in the Korean scene in TvP/PvT is starting to show. But the PvZ ratio may indicate that as foreigners "top out" in skill and game sense, the advantage actually goes to Protoss and that it is up to the Zerg to do something ingenious to win the game.
On August 23 2008 03:07 SiegeTanksandBlueGoo wrote: yeah, seriously, if you're losing to D- level protosses, then you are not a C level zerg. Period. I'm a C- level protoss and PvZ guessing his tech is hard as shit expecially when he copies the koreans and gest both spire and hydra den. Double Den Hydra break or Mutalisks. For protoss, if you guess wrong (or if you're a good player, you didn't scout it out completely) you are completely fucked. Gamer-ender style. If you're zerg, you know wha the's making. There's no need to guess anything other than maybe dt/sair or reaver sair, neither of which is a game ender. There's no need to bitch about ZvP.
On another note. Fuck, TvP is dumb. All these protosses that I would stomp in pvp just own me so hard in tvp. ^^;; I guess I just suck at terran.
Who cares?
Either way go sair reaver, and if your A key is attached you should win every time.
You are a very angry young man.
Leveling accuasations at every person who dares to disagree with you. You are clearly not interested in having a discussion, you are just interested in bitching. I think that this particular bitching session would be more appropriate as a blog.
I don't suppose that you could take a step back from your hubris to aknowledge that as a C level zerg you might not know everything about the game, and that there might be a flaw in your game. No I suppose that is too much to hope for.
ZvP may be imbalance, lord if I know, but I do know that you are uninterested in any real discussion on the matter.
Enjoy flaming me.
I agree. I remember there was a thread somewhere talking about how even Bisu had trouble macroing while doing reaver/sair. I think he's a much more reputable source of PvZ information than Doctor Helvetica, who for god's sakes, we don't even know he's a C level zerg or not.
On August 23 2008 03:07 SiegeTanksandBlueGoo wrote: yeah, seriously, if you're losing to D- level protosses, then you are not a C level zerg. Period. I'm a C- level protoss and PvZ guessing his tech is hard as shit expecially when he copies the koreans and gest both spire and hydra den. Double Den Hydra break or Mutalisks. For protoss, if you guess wrong (or if you're a good player, you didn't scout it out completely) you are completely fucked. Gamer-ender style. If you're zerg, you know wha the's making. There's no need to guess anything other than maybe dt/sair or reaver sair, neither of which is a game ender. There's no need to bitch about ZvP.
On another note. Fuck, TvP is dumb. All these protosses that I would stomp in pvp just own me so hard in tvp. ^^;; I guess I just suck at terran.
Who cares?
Either way go sair reaver, and if your A key is attached you should win every time.
You are a very angry young man.
Leveling accuasations at every person who dares to disagree with you. You are clearly not interested in having a discussion, you are just interested in bitching. I think that this particular bitching session would be more appropriate as a blog.
I don't suppose that you could take a step back from your hubris to aknowledge that as a C level zerg you might not know everything about the game, and that there might be a flaw in your game. No I suppose that is too much to hope for.
ZvP may be imbalance, lord if I know, but I do know that you are uninterested in any real discussion on the matter.
Enjoy flaming me.
Angry? I haven't attacked anyone, I've just been smarmy.
You shouldn't be so quick to analyze the emotional make-up of everyone you meet. That's really obnoxious.
On August 23 2008 02:28 Gaetele wrote: About 8000 Zerglings or Scourge have died in my game to Archons, Templars and Corsairs. How is this even remotely balanced!?
It's not. That's why zerg has huge strategical and economical advantages over protoss.
In ZvP, Corsairs just fly around and snipe your Overlords, destroying any sort of sight you have. Even West and East scrubs still manage to beat me occasionally in PvZ (Koreans...) It's like going to Philadelphia and then getting shot while at the Liberty Bell - it's that painful. Poor Zerglings, just being born to get cut down in the prime of their life without even touching anything.
On August 23 2008 02:47 Shauni wrote: LOL. I think someone has problems with fundamentals...
And who are you to criticize my fundamentals without having any proof? I worked hard and finally raised my level of play, gaming in TSL and Spirit. It's just that Protoss can win the game by turning SC on. I admit I'm not the best player out there, but I'm not 4pooling my way to B+. There are people on the ladder that shouldn't be that high.
On August 23 2008 02:43 Little-Chimp wrote: I'm a D level at best and I will rarely lose to a D- protoss... I think someone's exaggerating their skill level a little bit.
Playground mentality, imo. Just because something is hard to believe doesn't mean that it's not true. It is not that hard to believe that some people are just bad at something - look at Casy. Remember back where he won an OSL? He's horrible at TvP. Oh wait. It must be because Protoss is imba, even vs. T!
I am not the only one who thinks so, I'm sure. I keep on practicing, practicing but still. I must have spent thousands of hours on this game but I still can't figure out this problem. It can't be my fault. And most of my friends play Protoss, with their 80 APM, but they beat me. Two of them combined is half of my APM. My multitask and macro are far above theirs but it still just isn't enough! The storm kills my entire army, and then the HTs just become Archons. My Overlords run but still see the end of their days to the ever-present Corsairs.
Each in there prime embarrasses the best(lol Best) protoss routinely, even would be contenders. Julyzerg makes every toss look stupid nearly every game .... Jaedong makes mid-game ZvP look like Toss never has a chance.(two of his championships were agains P) Savior has the highest Elo peak of all time in ZvP.
The cool thing about BW, is that below the top levels, protoss is fucking awesome and balanced. And on a very very low level even dominate. Why not find 2 or 3 of your most terrible ZvP defeats.... take a notepad, watch the rep, take notes on things you could improve, Post the replays + notes in the strategy forum and begin something productive ....Whinning rarely helps win ZvP ..... I've tried.
On August 23 2008 02:28 Gaetele wrote: About 8000 Zerglings or Scourge have died in my game to Archons, Templars and Corsairs. How is this even remotely balanced!?
It's not. That's why zerg has huge strategical and economical advantages over protoss.
In ZvP, Corsairs just fly around and snipe your Overlords, destroying any sort of sight you have. Even West and East scrubs still manage to beat me occasionally in PvZ (Koreans...) It's like going to Philadelphia and then getting shot while at the Liberty Bell - it's that painful. Poor Zerglings, just being born to get cut down in the prime of their life without even touching anything.
On August 23 2008 02:47 Shauni wrote: LOL. I think someone has problems with fundamentals...
And who are you to criticize my fundamentals without having any proof? I worked hard and finally raised my level of play, gaming in TSL and Spirit. It's just that Protoss can win the game by turning SC on. I admit I'm not the best player out there, but I'm not 4pooling my way to B+. There are people on the ladder that shouldn't be that high.
On August 23 2008 02:43 Little-Chimp wrote: I'm a D level at best and I will rarely lose to a D- protoss... I think someone's exaggerating their skill level a little bit.
Playground mentality, imo. Just because something is hard to believe doesn't mean that it's not true. It is not that hard to believe that some people are just bad at something - look at Casy. Remember back where he won an OSL? He's horrible at TvP. Oh wait. It must be because Protoss is imba, even vs. T!
I am not the only one who thinks so, I'm sure. I keep on practicing, practicing but still. I must have spent thousands of hours on this game but I still can't figure out this problem. It can't be my fault. And most of my friends play Protoss, with their 80 APM, but they beat me. Two of them combined is half of my APM. My multitask and macro are far above theirs but it still just isn't enough! The storm kills my entire army, and then the HTs just become Archons. My Overlords run but still see the end of their days to the ever-present Corsairs.
lol, you'd think with 160 apm, you would be able to do some dancing and flanking.
Yes, the game is completely imbalanced P>Z. All those games you see where Zerg beats Protoss didn't actually happen. And all those games where Bisu loses to Zerg didn't happen either, he wins all of them, ever.
On August 23 2008 03:28 Ancestral wrote: Yes, the game is completely imbalanced P>Z. All those games you see where Zerg beats Protoss didn't actually happen. And all those games where Bisu loses to Zerg didn't happen either, he wins all of them, ever.
I find it hard to believe that with 160 APM, you can't beat an 80 APM Protoss. All you need to do against an 80 APM Protoss is stop his initial push and you've won. APM may not mean everything, after all there are some decent foreigners with less than 130 APM playing P, but 80 is really pushing it. Maybe you're just not making enough hatcheries fast enough.
On August 23 2008 03:07 SiegeTanksandBlueGoo wrote: yeah, seriously, if you're losing to D- level protosses, then you are not a C level zerg. Period. I'm a C- level protoss and PvZ guessing his tech is hard as shit expecially when he copies the koreans and gest both spire and hydra den. Double Den Hydra break or Mutalisks. For protoss, if you guess wrong (or if you're a good player, you didn't scout it out completely) you are completely fucked. Gamer-ender style. If you're zerg, you know wha the's making. There's no need to guess anything other than maybe dt/sair or reaver sair, neither of which is a game ender. There's no need to bitch about ZvP.
On another note. Fuck, TvP is dumb. All these protosses that I would stomp in pvp just own me so hard in tvp. ^^;; I guess I just suck at terran.
Who cares?
Either way go sair reaver, and if your A key is attached you should win every time.
I agree with this. Only noobs lose Shuttles to Scourges or Hydralisks. Only noobs have their cannons brokens. Only noobs have bug scarabs.
When I start a PvZ game, I just hold down the A key and voila, perfect macro, perfect micro. Before my eyes I get a Fleet Beacon and an army of Sairs that fire perfect disruption web and everything. I don't even use the mouse, I don't own one, they're too fancy for me.
On August 23 2008 03:28 Ancestral wrote: Yes, the game is completely imbalanced P>Z. All those games you see where Zerg beats Protoss didn't actually happen. And all those games where Bisu loses to Zerg didn't happen either, he wins all of them, ever.
On August 23 2008 02:28 Gaetele wrote: Now I'm tired of losing to stupid D- Protosses on iCCup. I'm a level C Zerg, dammit. This is getting friggin' ridiculous. People say that the races are balanced, but there's no way it is even looked at properly by Blizzard. Once Corsairs get into groups above 8 or so, even a hundred Scourge won't manage to take out one. That's just retarded. I mean, look at the story. Zerg are the race that just totally take out all groups in terms of numbers, but all of the Protoss units have retarded AoE splash that just tears through my units one by one. About 8000 Zerglings or Scourge have died in my game to Archons, Templars and Corsairs. How is this even remotely balanced!?
it's rather balanced at pro level, so obviously you just suck at ZvP
It isn't balanced at all. Bisu was never good, he was just lucky to discover an imba build.
You're very confused child. I guess what you're saying is he discovered an imbalanced build that has tended to lose lately. So I guess it's imbalanced Z>P, only logical conclusion.
If you're losing to D- Protoss and you're a C zerg, I'm wondering how. I understand people have different weak matchups, but if you can do ZvT and ZvZ pretty competently, I think you can learn larva management and the timings to rip every D- Protoss apart with ease.
Maybe you should play some Protoss vs Zerg to get an idea of how the other side of the fence feels. I know with me I was initially a lot better at ZvP, and that helped me get decent a PvZ, which in turn helped my ZvP...
On August 23 2008 03:28 Ancestral wrote: Yes, the game is completely imbalanced P>Z. All those games you see where Zerg beats Protoss didn't actually happen. And all those games where Bisu loses to Zerg didn't happen either, he wins all of them, ever.
On August 23 2008 02:28 Gaetele wrote: Now I'm tired of losing to stupid D- Protosses on iCCup. I'm a level C Zerg, dammit. This is getting friggin' ridiculous. People say that the races are balanced, but there's no way it is even looked at properly by Blizzard. Once Corsairs get into groups above 8 or so, even a hundred Scourge won't manage to take out one. That's just retarded. I mean, look at the story. Zerg are the race that just totally take out all groups in terms of numbers, but all of the Protoss units have retarded AoE splash that just tears through my units one by one. About 8000 Zerglings or Scourge have died in my game to Archons, Templars and Corsairs. How is this even remotely balanced!?
it's rather balanced at pro level, so obviously you just suck at ZvP
It isn't balanced at all. Bisu was never good, he was just lucky to discover an imba build.
You're very confused child. I guess what you're saying is he discovered an imbalanced build that has tended to lose lately. So I guess it's imbalanced Z>P, only logical conclusion.
Didn't Flash do the same thing? He found a lucky build, and won in tournaments dominated by Protoss, and cheesed the zergs out of the way. Now that Toss know how to counter it, he get's buttraped 24/7.
On August 23 2008 03:28 Ancestral wrote: Yes, the game is completely imbalanced P>Z. All those games you see where Zerg beats Protoss didn't actually happen. And all those games where Bisu loses to Zerg didn't happen either, he wins all of them, ever.
Bisu doesn't count, considering he sucks.
On August 23 2008 03:01 DoctorHelvetica wrote:
On August 23 2008 02:59 blabber wrote:
On August 23 2008 02:28 Gaetele wrote: Now I'm tired of losing to stupid D- Protosses on iCCup. I'm a level C Zerg, dammit. This is getting friggin' ridiculous. People say that the races are balanced, but there's no way it is even looked at properly by Blizzard. Once Corsairs get into groups above 8 or so, even a hundred Scourge won't manage to take out one. That's just retarded. I mean, look at the story. Zerg are the race that just totally take out all groups in terms of numbers, but all of the Protoss units have retarded AoE splash that just tears through my units one by one. About 8000 Zerglings or Scourge have died in my game to Archons, Templars and Corsairs. How is this even remotely balanced!?
it's rather balanced at pro level, so obviously you just suck at ZvP
It isn't balanced at all. Bisu was never good, he was just lucky to discover an imba build.
You're very confused child. I guess what you're saying is he discovered an imbalanced build that has tended to lose lately. So I guess it's imbalanced Z>P, only logical conclusion.
Didn't Flash do the same thing? He found a lucky build, and won in tournaments dominated by Protoss, and cheesed the zergs out of the way. Now that Toss know how to counter it, he get's buttraped 24/7.
It's the same thing, really.
Maybe you would find more "lucky builds" and "counters to lucky builds" if you played 12 hours a day. I don't know if you're seriously contending these points or are just ignorant.
On August 23 2008 03:28 Ancestral wrote: Yes, the game is completely imbalanced P>Z. All those games you see where Zerg beats Protoss didn't actually happen. And all those games where Bisu loses to Zerg didn't happen either, he wins all of them, ever.
Bisu doesn't count, considering he sucks.
On August 23 2008 03:01 DoctorHelvetica wrote:
On August 23 2008 02:59 blabber wrote:
On August 23 2008 02:28 Gaetele wrote: Now I'm tired of losing to stupid D- Protosses on iCCup. I'm a level C Zerg, dammit. This is getting friggin' ridiculous. People say that the races are balanced, but there's no way it is even looked at properly by Blizzard. Once Corsairs get into groups above 8 or so, even a hundred Scourge won't manage to take out one. That's just retarded. I mean, look at the story. Zerg are the race that just totally take out all groups in terms of numbers, but all of the Protoss units have retarded AoE splash that just tears through my units one by one. About 8000 Zerglings or Scourge have died in my game to Archons, Templars and Corsairs. How is this even remotely balanced!?
it's rather balanced at pro level, so obviously you just suck at ZvP
It isn't balanced at all. Bisu was never good, he was just lucky to discover an imba build.
You're very confused child. I guess what you're saying is he discovered an imbalanced build that has tended to lose lately. So I guess it's imbalanced Z>P, only logical conclusion.
Didn't Flash do the same thing? He found a lucky build, and won in tournaments dominated by Protoss, and cheesed the zergs out of the way. Now that Toss know how to counter it, he get's buttraped 24/7.
It's the same thing, really.
Maybe you would find more "lucky builds" and "counters to lucky builds" if you played 12 hours a day. I don't know if you're seriously contending these points or are just ignorant.
A player who is winning off of a clever build every game, and it's the same build, then later can't adapt is a player who I don't see as skilled.
I'm A D level zerg, and I find it muuuuch easier to beat protoss than to beat terran. I think my winrate against protoss is like, twice what I have against Terran.
On August 23 2008 03:07 SiegeTanksandBlueGoo wrote: yeah, seriously, if you're losing to D- level protosses, then you are not a C level zerg. Period. I'm a C- level protoss and PvZ guessing his tech is hard as shit expecially when he copies the koreans and gest both spire and hydra den. Double Den Hydra break or Mutalisks. For protoss, if you guess wrong (or if you're a good player, you didn't scout it out completely) you are completely fucked. Gamer-ender style. If you're zerg, you know wha the's making. There's no need to guess anything other than maybe dt/sair or reaver sair, neither of which is a game ender. There's no need to bitch about ZvP.
On another note. Fuck, TvP is dumb. All these protosses that I would stomp in pvp just own me so hard in tvp. ^^;; I guess I just suck at terran.
Who cares?
Either way go sair reaver, and if your A key is attached you should win every time.
You are a very angry young man.
Leveling accuasations at every person who dares to disagree with you. You are clearly not interested in having a discussion, you are just interested in bitching. I think that this particular bitching session would be more appropriate as a blog.
I don't suppose that you could take a step back from your hubris to aknowledge that as a C level zerg you might not know everything about the game, and that there might be a flaw in your game. No I suppose that is too much to hope for.
ZvP may be imbalance, lord if I know, but I do know that you are uninterested in any real discussion on the matter.
Enjoy flaming me.
Angry? I haven't attacked anyone, I've just been smarmy.
You shouldn't be so quick to analyze the emotional make-up of everyone you meet. That's really obnoxious.
Chillin' is what you should do, kid, because you're about to get banned for trolling. As for Gatele, you're out of your mind man. You haven't cited anything from outside of the game. You should spend time maxin' your APM and strategy, instead of wasting your time crying. I do think it's actually kind of relaxin' to see all the people finally standing up and saying that PvZ is balanced. It is truly funny to see all the newbies come out of the woodwork to start complaining; I mean. although I actually find it really cool that there are so many differing opinions, only the "balanced" ones bring logical facts.
On August 23 2008 03:25 AttackZerg wrote: Zerg has been pretty then protoss FOREVER.
Julyzerg Jaedong Savior
Each in there prime embarrasses the best(lol Best) protoss routinely, even would be contenders. Julyzerg makes every toss look stupid nearly every game .... Jaedong makes mid-game ZvP look like Toss never has a chance.(two of his championships were agains P) Savior has the highest Elo peak of all time in ZvP.
The cool thing about BW, is that below the top levels, protoss is fucking awesome and balanced. And on a very very low level even dominate. Why not find 2 or 3 of your most terrible ZvP defeats.... take a notepad, watch the rep, take notes on things you could improve, Post the replays + notes in the strategy forum and begin something productive ....Whinning rarely helps win ZvP ..... I've tried.
And facts like this are what makes this argument impossible. We're talking about the D foreigner level, all the facts about the fucking ZvP Bonjwa are useless. I'm starting to consider that some people are shootin' for a flame war, I don't know, but why are you brining these facts in? Can we go back and talk some about the fundamentals of the game? We can compare this to examining the highest level of b-ball; you wouldn't start copying Shaq because you can't play at his level. Well, looking at people outside of Korea you quickly we can't play at Savior, Jaedong or JulyZerg's levels. I mean, some people of considerable talent can do some moves like them. I think foreigners still really cannot come close to the complete package. Now, I think a good idea is to go back to basic: Seriously, can we follow my school of thought and start examining the game, not the players?
On August 23 2008 03:28 Ancestral wrote: Yes, the game is completely imbalanced P>Z. All those games you see where Zerg beats Protoss didn't actually happen. And all those games where Bisu loses to Zerg didn't happen either, he wins all of them, ever.
Bisu doesn't count, considering he sucks.
On August 23 2008 03:01 DoctorHelvetica wrote:
On August 23 2008 02:59 blabber wrote:
On August 23 2008 02:28 Gaetele wrote: Now I'm tired of losing to stupid D- Protosses on iCCup. I'm a level C Zerg, dammit. This is getting friggin' ridiculous. People say that the races are balanced, but there's no way it is even looked at properly by Blizzard. Once Corsairs get into groups above 8 or so, even a hundred Scourge won't manage to take out one. That's just retarded. I mean, look at the story. Zerg are the race that just totally take out all groups in terms of numbers, but all of the Protoss units have retarded AoE splash that just tears through my units one by one. About 8000 Zerglings or Scourge have died in my game to Archons, Templars and Corsairs. How is this even remotely balanced!?
it's rather balanced at pro level, so obviously you just suck at ZvP
It isn't balanced at all. Bisu was never good, he was just lucky to discover an imba build.
You're very confused child. I guess what you're saying is he discovered an imbalanced build that has tended to lose lately. So I guess it's imbalanced Z>P, only logical conclusion.
Didn't Flash do the same thing? He found a lucky build, and won in tournaments dominated by Protoss, and cheesed the zergs out of the way. Now that Toss know how to counter it, he get's buttraped 24/7.
It's the same thing, really.
Maybe you would find more "lucky builds" and "counters to lucky builds" if you played 12 hours a day. I don't know if you're seriously contending these points or are just ignorant.
A player who is winning off of a clever build every game, and it's the same build, then later can't adapt is a player who I don't see as skilled.
There is more to winning than having a "clever build," seeing as how Flash and Bisu have both won games lately. And I'm sure you think Savior is incredibly skilled, but he lost a lot with the same build. Now he's won a few again.
There's confidence, builds, mind games, opponents confidence, and probably other things. If what you're claiming is "Bisu and Flash are not skilled players," than I think anybody who seriously thought about it would disagree with you.
Bisu doesn't always do FE -> Sair/DT, so it's not always the same build. Just because he fast expands doesn't mean it's the same build every time.
And Flash doesn't always 14cc, but unfortunately for him he has been lately. His 3-0 Stork didn't involve his fast double armories, and he still won. I think the players realize they can't be 1 trick ponies.
I know the least about Zerg openings but to me it seems Jaedong does a lot of similar builds and wins all the time, and he has been for a while now. He doesn't come up with new amazing ridiculous builds for every game.
Chill: I agree talking about D-level foreigner play and Progamers doesn't really prove anything, but, I have certainly lost to C level Zergs before and am a D level Protoss, so I think the premise of Gaetele's argument is flawed, or he is exaggerating. Why would he even be playing D- Protoss when he's C?
If I sound angry, it's because everyone's arguments in this thread are retarded.
On August 23 2008 03:07 SiegeTanksandBlueGoo wrote: yeah, seriously, if you're losing to D- level protosses, then you are not a C level zerg. Period. I'm a C- level protoss and PvZ guessing his tech is hard as shit expecially when he copies the koreans and gest both spire and hydra den. Double Den Hydra break or Mutalisks. For protoss, if you guess wrong (or if you're a good player, you didn't scout it out completely) you are completely fucked. Gamer-ender style. If you're zerg, you know wha the's making. There's no need to guess anything other than maybe dt/sair or reaver sair, neither of which is a game ender. There's no need to bitch about ZvP.
On another note. Fuck, TvP is dumb. All these protosses that I would stomp in pvp just own me so hard in tvp. ^^;; I guess I just suck at terran.
Who cares?
Either way go sair reaver, and if your A key is attached you should win every time.
You are a very angry young man.
Leveling accuasations at every person who dares to disagree with you. You are clearly not interested in having a discussion, you are just interested in bitching. I think that this particular bitching session would be more appropriate as a blog.
I don't suppose that you could take a step back from your hubris to aknowledge that as a C level zerg you might not know everything about the game, and that there might be a flaw in your game. No I suppose that is too much to hope for.
ZvP may be imbalance, lord if I know, but I do know that you are uninterested in any real discussion on the matter.
Enjoy flaming me.
Angry? I haven't attacked anyone, I've just been smarmy.
You shouldn't be so quick to analyze the emotional make-up of everyone you meet. That's really obnoxious.
Chillin' is what you should do, kid, because you're about to get banned for trolling. As for Gatele, you're out of your mind man. You haven't cited anything from outside of the game. You should spend time maxin' your APM and strategy, instead of wasting your time crying. I do think it's actually kind of relaxin' to see all the people finally standing up and saying that PvZ is balanced. It is truly funny to see all the newbies come out of the woodwork to start complaining; I mean. although I actually find it really cool that there are so many differing opinions, only the "balanced" ones bring logical facts.
On August 23 2008 03:25 AttackZerg wrote: Zerg has been pretty then protoss FOREVER.
Julyzerg Jaedong Savior
Each in there prime embarrasses the best(lol Best) protoss routinely, even would be contenders. Julyzerg makes every toss look stupid nearly every game .... Jaedong makes mid-game ZvP look like Toss never has a chance.(two of his championships were agains P) Savior has the highest Elo peak of all time in ZvP.
The cool thing about BW, is that below the top levels, protoss is fucking awesome and balanced. And on a very very low level even dominate. Why not find 2 or 3 of your most terrible ZvP defeats.... take a notepad, watch the rep, take notes on things you could improve, Post the replays + notes in the strategy forum and begin something productive ....Whinning rarely helps win ZvP ..... I've tried.
And facts like this are what makes this argument impossible. We're talking about the D foreigner level, all the facts about the fucking ZvP Bonjwa are useless. I'm starting to consider that some people are shootin' for a flame war, I don't know, but why are you brining these facts in? Can we go back and talk some about the fundamentals of the game? We can compare this to examining the highest level of b-ball; you wouldn't start copying Shaq because you can't play at his level. Well, looking at people outside of Korea you quickly we can't play at Savior, Jaedong or JulyZerg's levels. I mean, some people of considerable talent can do some moves like them. I think foreigners still really cannot come close to the complete package. Now, I think a good idea is to go back to basic: Seriously, can we follow my school of thought and start examining the game, not the players?
I'm chill. Everyone else is attacking me. Good observation powers, o holy admin.
But on a lighter note, I agree that people need to stop comparing everyone to Korean pros. None of us will ever be this good, so it's irrelevant.
How are you losing to D- protosses? I'm a no skill C level protoss that easy-modes his way to C rank by a moving PvT every season, and even my ZvP can beat D- protosses easily.
On August 23 2008 03:07 SiegeTanksandBlueGoo wrote: yeah, seriously, if you're losing to D- level protosses, then you are not a C level zerg. Period. I'm a C- level protoss and PvZ guessing his tech is hard as shit expecially when he copies the koreans and gest both spire and hydra den. Double Den Hydra break or Mutalisks. For protoss, if you guess wrong (or if you're a good player, you didn't scout it out completely) you are completely fucked. Gamer-ender style. If you're zerg, you know wha the's making. There's no need to guess anything other than maybe dt/sair or reaver sair, neither of which is a game ender. There's no need to bitch about ZvP.
On another note. Fuck, TvP is dumb. All these protosses that I would stomp in pvp just own me so hard in tvp. ^^;; I guess I just suck at terran.
Who cares?
Either way go sair reaver, and if your A key is attached you should win every time.
I agree with this. Only noobs lose Shuttles to Scourges or Hydralisks. Only noobs have their cannons brokens. Only noobs have bug scarabs.
When I start a PvZ game, I just hold down the A key and voila, perfect macro, perfect micro. Before my eyes I get a Fleet Beacon and an army of Sairs that fire perfect disruption web and everything. I don't even use the mouse, I don't own one, they're too fancy for me.
On August 23 2008 03:07 SiegeTanksandBlueGoo wrote: yeah, seriously, if you're losing to D- level protosses, then you are not a C level zerg. Period. I'm a C- level protoss and PvZ guessing his tech is hard as shit expecially when he copies the koreans and gest both spire and hydra den. Double Den Hydra break or Mutalisks. For protoss, if you guess wrong (or if you're a good player, you didn't scout it out completely) you are completely fucked. Gamer-ender style. If you're zerg, you know wha the's making. There's no need to guess anything other than maybe dt/sair or reaver sair, neither of which is a game ender. There's no need to bitch about ZvP.
On another note. Fuck, TvP is dumb. All these protosses that I would stomp in pvp just own me so hard in tvp. ^^;; I guess I just suck at terran.
Who cares?
Either way go sair reaver, and if your A key is attached you should win every time.
I agree with this. Only noobs lose Shuttles to Scourges or Hydralisks. Only noobs have their cannons brokens. Only noobs have bug scarabs.
When I start a PvZ game, I just hold down the A key and voila, perfect macro, perfect micro. Before my eyes I get a Fleet Beacon and an army of Sairs that fire perfect disruption web and everything. I don't even use the mouse, I don't own one, they're too fancy for me.
Sair Reaver is not easy, or even a good build unless you're already an incredible player
I beat a D- Toss without using the keyboard, and i havent played this game for years.
Well thats easy. D- Protoss can be anywhere from some major fundamental problems to no understanding of the game at all. If I were to let someone play for the first time they would be considered D- if nothing else.
On August 23 2008 03:07 SiegeTanksandBlueGoo wrote: yeah, seriously, if you're losing to D- level protosses, then you are not a C level zerg. Period. I'm a C- level protoss and PvZ guessing his tech is hard as shit expecially when he copies the koreans and gest both spire and hydra den. Double Den Hydra break or Mutalisks. For protoss, if you guess wrong (or if you're a good player, you didn't scout it out completely) you are completely fucked. Gamer-ender style. If you're zerg, you know wha the's making. There's no need to guess anything other than maybe dt/sair or reaver sair, neither of which is a game ender. There's no need to bitch about ZvP.
On another note. Fuck, TvP is dumb. All these protosses that I would stomp in pvp just own me so hard in tvp. ^^;; I guess I just suck at terran.
Who cares?
Either way go sair reaver, and if your A key is attached you should win every time.
You are a very angry young man.
Leveling accuasations at every person who dares to disagree with you. You are clearly not interested in having a discussion, you are just interested in bitching. I think that this particular bitching session would be more appropriate as a blog.
I don't suppose that you could take a step back from your hubris to aknowledge that as a C level zerg you might not know everything about the game, and that there might be a flaw in your game. No I suppose that is too much to hope for.
ZvP may be imbalance, lord if I know, but I do know that you are uninterested in any real discussion on the matter.
Enjoy flaming me.
Angry? I haven't attacked anyone, I've just been smarmy.
You shouldn't be so quick to analyze the emotional make-up of everyone you meet. That's really obnoxious.
Chillin' is what you should do, kid, because you're about to get banned for trolling. As for Gatele, you're out of your mind man. You haven't cited anything from outside of the game. You should spend time maxin' your APM and strategy, instead of wasting your time crying. I do think it's actually kind of relaxin' to see all the people finally standing up and saying that PvZ is balanced. It is truly funny to see all the newbies come out of the woodwork to start complaining; I mean. although I actually find it really cool that there are so many differing opinions, only the "balanced" ones bring logical facts.
On August 23 2008 03:25 AttackZerg wrote: Zerg has been pretty then protoss FOREVER.
Julyzerg Jaedong Savior
Each in there prime embarrasses the best(lol Best) protoss routinely, even would be contenders. Julyzerg makes every toss look stupid nearly every game .... Jaedong makes mid-game ZvP look like Toss never has a chance.(two of his championships were agains P) Savior has the highest Elo peak of all time in ZvP.
The cool thing about BW, is that below the top levels, protoss is fucking awesome and balanced. And on a very very low level even dominate. Why not find 2 or 3 of your most terrible ZvP defeats.... take a notepad, watch the rep, take notes on things you could improve, Post the replays + notes in the strategy forum and begin something productive ....Whinning rarely helps win ZvP ..... I've tried.
And facts like this are what makes this argument impossible. We're talking about the D foreigner level, all the facts about the fucking ZvP Bonjwa are useless. I'm starting to consider that some people are shootin' for a flame war, I don't know, but why are you brining these facts in? Can we go back and talk some about the fundamentals of the game? We can compare this to examining the highest level of b-ball; you wouldn't start copying Shaq because you can't play at his level. Well, looking at people outside of Korea you quickly we can't play at Savior, Jaedong or JulyZerg's levels. I mean, some people of considerable talent can do some moves like them. I think foreigners still really cannot come close to the complete package. Now, I think a good idea is to go back to basic: Seriously, can we follow my school of thought and start examining the game, not the players?
When will people stop patronizing me? Calling me newbie and everything. It's just ridiculous. I can't be a C level if I were totally newb. I think I've made my point pretty clearly in this thread. Just go play a couple of games and you would understand where I'm coming from. If people would stop citing the level of skill of progamers then we could get to the real problem - balance.
Guys that you pull off the street could probably sit down to a computer and play Protoss in SC. Boxer, who is great at Terran, started Protoss because it was the easiest. This won't reach a conclusion if it were up to Blizzard's developers. I'm not hired as a game designer, but I think that if it were completely up to me, I would just remove High Templars and Corsairs from the game. Unfortunately, it looks like, to the Blizzard developers, they don't listen to the community.
No company should just blatantly disregard the problems in front of them. Not to say that Blizzard isn't good, but look at how much whining there is on the WoW forums. Every single thread created there is started fine, but I never see a blue post about anything meaningful.
Making a good, balanced game requires input from the community, and I don't think it should be a trouble for Blizzard to do so. All they really have to do at the end of the day is to tweak some numbers in the code and then remove some and it'll be fine.
My main problem is with threads like this - people always feel the need to argue back and forth. In the neighborhood of TeamLiquid, all the houses would be throwing flaming napalm at each other. Flame on!
On August 23 2008 03:07 SiegeTanksandBlueGoo wrote: yeah, seriously, if you're losing to D- level protosses, then you are not a C level zerg. Period. I'm a C- level protoss and PvZ guessing his tech is hard as shit expecially when he copies the koreans and gest both spire and hydra den. Double Den Hydra break or Mutalisks. For protoss, if you guess wrong (or if you're a good player, you didn't scout it out completely) you are completely fucked. Gamer-ender style. If you're zerg, you know wha the's making. There's no need to guess anything other than maybe dt/sair or reaver sair, neither of which is a game ender. There's no need to bitch about ZvP.
On another note. Fuck, TvP is dumb. All these protosses that I would stomp in pvp just own me so hard in tvp. ^^;; I guess I just suck at terran.
Who cares?
Either way go sair reaver, and if your A key is attached you should win every time.
I agree with this. Only noobs lose Shuttles to Scourges or Hydralisks. Only noobs have their cannons brokens. Only noobs have bug scarabs.
When I start a PvZ game, I just hold down the A key and voila, perfect macro, perfect micro. Before my eyes I get a Fleet Beacon and an army of Sairs that fire perfect disruption web and everything. I don't even use the mouse, I don't own one, they're too fancy for me.
On August 23 2008 03:07 SiegeTanksandBlueGoo wrote: yeah, seriously, if you're losing to D- level protosses, then you are not a C level zerg. Period. I'm a C- level protoss and PvZ guessing his tech is hard as shit expecially when he copies the koreans and gest both spire and hydra den. Double Den Hydra break or Mutalisks. For protoss, if you guess wrong (or if you're a good player, you didn't scout it out completely) you are completely fucked. Gamer-ender style. If you're zerg, you know wha the's making. There's no need to guess anything other than maybe dt/sair or reaver sair, neither of which is a game ender. There's no need to bitch about ZvP.
On another note. Fuck, TvP is dumb. All these protosses that I would stomp in pvp just own me so hard in tvp. ^^;; I guess I just suck at terran.
Who cares?
Either way go sair reaver, and if your A key is attached you should win every time.
You are a very angry young man.
Leveling accuasations at every person who dares to disagree with you. You are clearly not interested in having a discussion, you are just interested in bitching. I think that this particular bitching session would be more appropriate as a blog.
I don't suppose that you could take a step back from your hubris to aknowledge that as a C level zerg you might not know everything about the game, and that there might be a flaw in your game. No I suppose that is too much to hope for.
ZvP may be imbalance, lord if I know, but I do know that you are uninterested in any real discussion on the matter.
Enjoy flaming me.
Angry? I haven't attacked anyone, I've just been smarmy.
You shouldn't be so quick to analyze the emotional make-up of everyone you meet. That's really obnoxious.
Chillin' is what you should do, kid, because you're about to get banned for trolling. As for Gatele, you're out of your mind man. You haven't cited anything from outside of the game. You should spend time maxin' your APM and strategy, instead of wasting your time crying. I do think it's actually kind of relaxin' to see all the people finally standing up and saying that PvZ is balanced. It is truly funny to see all the newbies come out of the woodwork to start complaining; I mean. although I actually find it really cool that there are so many differing opinions, only the "balanced" ones bring logical facts.
On August 23 2008 03:25 AttackZerg wrote: Zerg has been pretty then protoss FOREVER.
Julyzerg Jaedong Savior
Each in there prime embarrasses the best(lol Best) protoss routinely, even would be contenders. Julyzerg makes every toss look stupid nearly every game .... Jaedong makes mid-game ZvP look like Toss never has a chance.(two of his championships were agains P) Savior has the highest Elo peak of all time in ZvP.
The cool thing about BW, is that below the top levels, protoss is fucking awesome and balanced. And on a very very low level even dominate. Why not find 2 or 3 of your most terrible ZvP defeats.... take a notepad, watch the rep, take notes on things you could improve, Post the replays + notes in the strategy forum and begin something productive ....Whinning rarely helps win ZvP ..... I've tried.
And facts like this are what makes this argument impossible. We're talking about the D foreigner level, all the facts about the fucking ZvP Bonjwa are useless. I'm starting to consider that some people are shootin' for a flame war, I don't know, but why are you brining these facts in? Can we go back and talk some about the fundamentals of the game? We can compare this to examining the highest level of b-ball; you wouldn't start copying Shaq because you can't play at his level. Well, looking at people outside of Korea you quickly we can't play at Savior, Jaedong or JulyZerg's levels. I mean, some people of considerable talent can do some moves like them. I think foreigners still really cannot come close to the complete package. Now, I think a good idea is to go back to basic: Seriously, can we follow my school of thought and start examining the game, not the players?
When will people stop patronizing me? Calling me newbie and everything. It's just ridiculous. I can't be a C level if I were totally newb. I think I've made my point pretty clearly in this thread. Just go play a couple of games and you would understand where I'm coming from. If people would stop citing the level of skill of progamers then we could get to the real problem - balance.
Guys that you pull off the street could probably sit down to a computer and play Protoss in SC. Boxer, who is great at Terran, started Protoss because it was the easiest. This won't reach a conclusion if it were up to Blizzard's developers. I'm not hired as a game designer, but I think that if it were completely up to me, I would just remove High Templars and Corsairs from the game. Unfortunately, it looks like, to the Blizzard developers, they don't listen to the community.
No company should just blatantly disregard the problems in front of them. Not to say that Blizzard isn't good, but look at how much whining there is on the WoW forums. Every single thread created there is started fine, but I never see a blue post about anything meaningful.
Making a good, balanced game requires input from the community, and I don't think it should be a trouble for Blizzard to do so. All they really have to do at the end of the day is to tweak some numbers in the code and then remove some and it'll be fine.
My main problem is with threads like this - people always feel the need to argue back and forth. In the neighborhood of TeamLiquid, all the houses would be throwing flaming napalm at each other. Flame on!
and what do protosses do against mass mutalisks without sairs or high templar? Throw sticks?
your premises are so flawed it's not even funny. If you were really a C level zerg, you would not lose to D- level protosses. Period. They won't have the macro/micro/multitasking/pretty much anything, that a C level has.
Go practice, 5 pool every game. Maybe people will complain about zvp imba then. ^^;;
As a C- protoss myself there is no way I can believe the crap your spewing. Your friends beat you because they are better than you, not because they are protoss. APM is no measure of skill.
Remember that OSL game between July and Best? Maybe you've seen it, because in that game July made it look straight up imba the way he denied Best's corsair/reaver, and then straight up dominated him when he made the switch back into a ground army.
I stopped taking this seriously when you said you get beat by D- protoss's.. I mean seriously, those are the nubs that barely know their build order timings and have no idea what hot keys are. And complaining that 8 corsairs is imbalanced just means you have no idea what the fuck to do about it.
I believe there is a strategy forum, if you look to the left of the main page and scroll down a bit, you'll see it, and I'm sure there are alot of other "C" Zergs with your same problem.
On August 23 2008 03:07 SiegeTanksandBlueGoo wrote: yeah, seriously, if you're losing to D- level protosses, then you are not a C level zerg. Period. I'm a C- level protoss and PvZ guessing his tech is hard as shit expecially when he copies the koreans and gest both spire and hydra den. Double Den Hydra break or Mutalisks. For protoss, if you guess wrong (or if you're a good player, you didn't scout it out completely) you are completely fucked. Gamer-ender style. If you're zerg, you know wha the's making. There's no need to guess anything other than maybe dt/sair or reaver sair, neither of which is a game ender. There's no need to bitch about ZvP.
On another note. Fuck, TvP is dumb. All these protosses that I would stomp in pvp just own me so hard in tvp. ^^;; I guess I just suck at terran.
Who cares?
Either way go sair reaver, and if your A key is attached you should win every time.
You are a very angry young man.
Leveling accuasations at every person who dares to disagree with you. You are clearly not interested in having a discussion, you are just interested in bitching. I think that this particular bitching session would be more appropriate as a blog.
I don't suppose that you could take a step back from your hubris to aknowledge that as a C level zerg you might not know everything about the game, and that there might be a flaw in your game. No I suppose that is too much to hope for.
ZvP may be imbalance, lord if I know, but I do know that you are uninterested in any real discussion on the matter.
Enjoy flaming me.
Angry? I haven't attacked anyone, I've just been smarmy.
You shouldn't be so quick to analyze the emotional make-up of everyone you meet. That's really obnoxious.
Chillin' is what you should do, kid, because you're about to get banned for trolling. As for Gatele, you're out of your mind man. You haven't cited anything from outside of the game. You should spend time maxin' your APM and strategy, instead of wasting your time crying. I do think it's actually kind of relaxin' to see all the people finally standing up and saying that PvZ is balanced. It is truly funny to see all the newbies come out of the woodwork to start complaining; I mean. although I actually find it really cool that there are so many differing opinions, only the "balanced" ones bring logical facts.
On August 23 2008 03:25 AttackZerg wrote: Zerg has been pretty then protoss FOREVER.
Julyzerg Jaedong Savior
Each in there prime embarrasses the best(lol Best) protoss routinely, even would be contenders. Julyzerg makes every toss look stupid nearly every game .... Jaedong makes mid-game ZvP look like Toss never has a chance.(two of his championships were agains P) Savior has the highest Elo peak of all time in ZvP.
The cool thing about BW, is that below the top levels, protoss is fucking awesome and balanced. And on a very very low level even dominate. Why not find 2 or 3 of your most terrible ZvP defeats.... take a notepad, watch the rep, take notes on things you could improve, Post the replays + notes in the strategy forum and begin something productive ....Whinning rarely helps win ZvP ..... I've tried.
And facts like this are what makes this argument impossible. We're talking about the D foreigner level, all the facts about the fucking ZvP Bonjwa are useless. I'm starting to consider that some people are shootin' for a flame war, I don't know, but why are you brining these facts in? Can we go back and talk some about the fundamentals of the game? We can compare this to examining the highest level of b-ball; you wouldn't start copying Shaq because you can't play at his level. Well, looking at people outside of Korea you quickly we can't play at Savior, Jaedong or JulyZerg's levels. I mean, some people of considerable talent can do some moves like them. I think foreigners still really cannot come close to the complete package. Now, I think a good idea is to go back to basic: Seriously, can we follow my school of thought and start examining the game, not the players?
When will people stop patronizing me? Calling me newbie and everything. It's just ridiculous. I can't be a C level if I were totally newb. I think I've made my point pretty clearly in this thread. Just go play a couple of games and you would understand where I'm coming from. If people would stop citing the level of skill of progamers then we could get to the real problem - balance.
Guys that you pull off the street could probably sit down to a computer and play Protoss in SC. Boxer, who is great at Terran, started Protoss because it was the easiest. This won't reach a conclusion if it were up to Blizzard's developers. I'm not hired as a game designer, but I think that if it were completely up to me, I would just remove High Templars and Corsairs from the game. Unfortunately, it looks like, to the Blizzard developers, they don't listen to the community.
No company should just blatantly disregard the problems in front of them. Not to say that Blizzard isn't good, but look at how much whining there is on the WoW forums. Every single thread created there is started fine, but I never see a blue post about anything meaningful.
Making a good, balanced game requires input from the community, and I don't think it should be a trouble for Blizzard to do so. All they really have to do at the end of the day is to tweak some numbers in the code and then remove some and it'll be fine.
My main problem is with threads like this - people always feel the need to argue back and forth. In the neighborhood of TeamLiquid, all the houses would be throwing flaming napalm at each other. Flame on!
and what do protosses do against mass mutalisks without sairs or high templar? Throw sticks?
your premises are so flawed it's not even funny. If you were really a C level zerg, you would not lose to D- level protosses. Period. They won't have the macro/micro/multitasking/pretty much anything, that a C level has.
Go practice, 5 pool every game. Maybe people will complain about zvp imba then. ^^;;
On August 23 2008 03:07 SiegeTanksandBlueGoo wrote: yeah, seriously, if you're losing to D- level protosses, then you are not a C level zerg. Period. I'm a C- level protoss and PvZ guessing his tech is hard as shit expecially when he copies the koreans and gest both spire and hydra den. Double Den Hydra break or Mutalisks. For protoss, if you guess wrong (or if you're a good player, you didn't scout it out completely) you are completely fucked. Gamer-ender style. If you're zerg, you know wha the's making. There's no need to guess anything other than maybe dt/sair or reaver sair, neither of which is a game ender. There's no need to bitch about ZvP.
On another note. Fuck, TvP is dumb. All these protosses that I would stomp in pvp just own me so hard in tvp. ^^;; I guess I just suck at terran.
Who cares?
Either way go sair reaver, and if your A key is attached you should win every time.
You are a very angry young man.
Leveling accuasations at every person who dares to disagree with you. You are clearly not interested in having a discussion, you are just interested in bitching. I think that this particular bitching session would be more appropriate as a blog.
I don't suppose that you could take a step back from your hubris to aknowledge that as a C level zerg you might not know everything about the game, and that there might be a flaw in your game. No I suppose that is too much to hope for.
ZvP may be imbalance, lord if I know, but I do know that you are uninterested in any real discussion on the matter.
Enjoy flaming me.
Angry? I haven't attacked anyone, I've just been smarmy.
You shouldn't be so quick to analyze the emotional make-up of everyone you meet. That's really obnoxious.
Chillin' is what you should do, kid, because you're about to get banned for trolling. As for Gatele, you're out of your mind man. You haven't cited anything from outside of the game. You should spend time maxin' your APM and strategy, instead of wasting your time crying. I do think it's actually kind of relaxin' to see all the people finally standing up and saying that PvZ is balanced. It is truly funny to see all the newbies come out of the woodwork to start complaining; I mean. although I actually find it really cool that there are so many differing opinions, only the "balanced" ones bring logical facts.
On August 23 2008 03:25 AttackZerg wrote: Zerg has been pretty then protoss FOREVER.
Julyzerg Jaedong Savior
Each in there prime embarrasses the best(lol Best) protoss routinely, even would be contenders. Julyzerg makes every toss look stupid nearly every game .... Jaedong makes mid-game ZvP look like Toss never has a chance.(two of his championships were agains P) Savior has the highest Elo peak of all time in ZvP.
The cool thing about BW, is that below the top levels, protoss is fucking awesome and balanced. And on a very very low level even dominate. Why not find 2 or 3 of your most terrible ZvP defeats.... take a notepad, watch the rep, take notes on things you could improve, Post the replays + notes in the strategy forum and begin something productive ....Whinning rarely helps win ZvP ..... I've tried.
And facts like this are what makes this argument impossible. We're talking about the D foreigner level, all the facts about the fucking ZvP Bonjwa are useless. I'm starting to consider that some people are shootin' for a flame war, I don't know, but why are you brining these facts in? Can we go back and talk some about the fundamentals of the game? We can compare this to examining the highest level of b-ball; you wouldn't start copying Shaq because you can't play at his level. Well, looking at people outside of Korea you quickly we can't play at Savior, Jaedong or JulyZerg's levels. I mean, some people of considerable talent can do some moves like them. I think foreigners still really cannot come close to the complete package. Now, I think a good idea is to go back to basic: Seriously, can we follow my school of thought and start examining the game, not the players?
When will people stop patronizing me? Calling me newbie and everything. It's just ridiculous. I can't be a C level if I were totally newb. I think I've made my point pretty clearly in this thread. Just go play a couple of games and you would understand where I'm coming from. If people would stop citing the level of skill of progamers then we could get to the real problem - balance.
Guys that you pull off the street could probably sit down to a computer and play Protoss in SC. Boxer, who is great at Terran, started Protoss because it was the easiest. This won't reach a conclusion if it were up to Blizzard's developers. I'm not hired as a game designer, but I think that if it were completely up to me, I would just remove High Templars and Corsairs from the game. Unfortunately, it looks like, to the Blizzard developers, they don't listen to the community.
No company should just blatantly disregard the problems in front of them. Not to say that Blizzard isn't good, but look at how much whining there is on the WoW forums. Every single thread created there is started fine, but I never see a blue post about anything meaningful.
Making a good, balanced game requires input from the community, and I don't think it should be a trouble for Blizzard to do so. All they really have to do at the end of the day is to tweak some numbers in the code and then remove some and it'll be fine.
My main problem is with threads like this - people always feel the need to argue back and forth. In the neighborhood of TeamLiquid, all the houses would be throwing flaming napalm at each other. Flame on!
Haha nubcakes. Boxer switched to Terran because they nerfed Reavers so they weren't as good anymore. Saying he played them because they were easiest is an insult to Boxer. I guess you hate Boxer, because he just said he played them because he liked Reavers.
I guess you're terrible at PvZ if you think Sairs and Temps need to be removed to make it balanced.
I'm a D level zerg and I beat 8 D- level protoss players at the same time no problem with my monitor off and 1 hand tied behind my back. You can't even have 9 people playing starcraft at the same time.
On August 23 2008 03:07 SiegeTanksandBlueGoo wrote: yeah, seriously, if you're losing to D- level protosses, then you are not a C level zerg. Period. I'm a C- level protoss and PvZ guessing his tech is hard as shit expecially when he copies the koreans and gest both spire and hydra den. Double Den Hydra break or Mutalisks. For protoss, if you guess wrong (or if you're a good player, you didn't scout it out completely) you are completely fucked. Gamer-ender style. If you're zerg, you know wha the's making. There's no need to guess anything other than maybe dt/sair or reaver sair, neither of which is a game ender. There's no need to bitch about ZvP.
On another note. Fuck, TvP is dumb. All these protosses that I would stomp in pvp just own me so hard in tvp. ^^;; I guess I just suck at terran.
Who cares?
Either way go sair reaver, and if your A key is attached you should win every time.
You are a very angry young man.
Leveling accuasations at every person who dares to disagree with you. You are clearly not interested in having a discussion, you are just interested in bitching. I think that this particular bitching session would be more appropriate as a blog.
I don't suppose that you could take a step back from your hubris to aknowledge that as a C level zerg you might not know everything about the game, and that there might be a flaw in your game. No I suppose that is too much to hope for.
ZvP may be imbalance, lord if I know, but I do know that you are uninterested in any real discussion on the matter.
Enjoy flaming me.
Angry? I haven't attacked anyone, I've just been smarmy.
You shouldn't be so quick to analyze the emotional make-up of everyone you meet. That's really obnoxious.
Chillin' is what you should do, kid, because you're about to get banned for trolling. As for Gatele, you're out of your mind man. You haven't cited anything from outside of the game. You should spend time maxin' your APM and strategy, instead of wasting your time crying. I do think it's actually kind of relaxin' to see all the people finally standing up and saying that PvZ is balanced. It is truly funny to see all the newbies come out of the woodwork to start complaining; I mean. although I actually find it really cool that there are so many differing opinions, only the "balanced" ones bring logical facts.
On August 23 2008 03:25 AttackZerg wrote: Zerg has been pretty then protoss FOREVER.
Julyzerg Jaedong Savior
Each in there prime embarrasses the best(lol Best) protoss routinely, even would be contenders. Julyzerg makes every toss look stupid nearly every game .... Jaedong makes mid-game ZvP look like Toss never has a chance.(two of his championships were agains P) Savior has the highest Elo peak of all time in ZvP.
The cool thing about BW, is that below the top levels, protoss is fucking awesome and balanced. And on a very very low level even dominate. Why not find 2 or 3 of your most terrible ZvP defeats.... take a notepad, watch the rep, take notes on things you could improve, Post the replays + notes in the strategy forum and begin something productive ....Whinning rarely helps win ZvP ..... I've tried.
And facts like this are what makes this argument impossible. We're talking about the D foreigner level, all the facts about the fucking ZvP Bonjwa are useless. I'm starting to consider that some people are shootin' for a flame war, I don't know, but why are you brining these facts in? Can we go back and talk some about the fundamentals of the game? We can compare this to examining the highest level of b-ball; you wouldn't start copying Shaq because you can't play at his level. Well, looking at people outside of Korea you quickly we can't play at Savior, Jaedong or JulyZerg's levels. I mean, some people of considerable talent can do some moves like them. I think foreigners still really cannot come close to the complete package. Now, I think a good idea is to go back to basic: Seriously, can we follow my school of thought and start examining the game, not the players?
When will people stop patronizing me? Calling me newbie and everything. It's just ridiculous. I can't be a C level if I were totally newb. I think I've made my point pretty clearly in this thread. Just go play a couple of games and you would understand where I'm coming from. If people would stop citing the level of skill of progamers then we could get to the real problem - balance.
Guys that you pull off the street could probably sit down to a computer and play Protoss in SC. Boxer, who is great at Terran, started Protoss because it was the easiest. This won't reach a conclusion if it were up to Blizzard's developers. I'm not hired as a game designer, but I think that if it were completely up to me, I would just remove High Templars and Corsairs from the game. Unfortunately, it looks like, to the Blizzard developers, they don't listen to the community.
No company should just blatantly disregard the problems in front of them. Not to say that Blizzard isn't good, but look at how much whining there is on the WoW forums. Every single thread created there is started fine, but I never see a blue post about anything meaningful.
Making a good, balanced game requires input from the community, and I don't think it should be a trouble for Blizzard to do so. All they really have to do at the end of the day is to tweak some numbers in the code and then remove some and it'll be fine.
My main problem is with threads like this - people always feel the need to argue back and forth. In the neighborhood of TeamLiquid, all the houses would be throwing flaming napalm at each other. Flame on!
Great suggestions. I'd also remove zealots, reavers, dts and goons. Those units are just imba.
On August 23 2008 03:07 SiegeTanksandBlueGoo wrote: yeah, seriously, if you're losing to D- level protosses, then you are not a C level zerg. Period. I'm a C- level protoss and PvZ guessing his tech is hard as shit expecially when he copies the koreans and gest both spire and hydra den. Double Den Hydra break or Mutalisks. For protoss, if you guess wrong (or if you're a good player, you didn't scout it out completely) you are completely fucked. Gamer-ender style. If you're zerg, you know wha the's making. There's no need to guess anything other than maybe dt/sair or reaver sair, neither of which is a game ender. There's no need to bitch about ZvP.
On another note. Fuck, TvP is dumb. All these protosses that I would stomp in pvp just own me so hard in tvp. ^^;; I guess I just suck at terran.
Who cares?
Either way go sair reaver, and if your A key is attached you should win every time.
You are a very angry young man.
Leveling accuasations at every person who dares to disagree with you. You are clearly not interested in having a discussion, you are just interested in bitching. I think that this particular bitching session would be more appropriate as a blog.
I don't suppose that you could take a step back from your hubris to aknowledge that as a C level zerg you might not know everything about the game, and that there might be a flaw in your game. No I suppose that is too much to hope for.
ZvP may be imbalance, lord if I know, but I do know that you are uninterested in any real discussion on the matter.
Enjoy flaming me.
Angry? I haven't attacked anyone, I've just been smarmy.
You shouldn't be so quick to analyze the emotional make-up of everyone you meet. That's really obnoxious.
Chillin' is what you should do, kid, because you're about to get banned for trolling. As for Gatele, you're out of your mind man. You haven't cited anything from outside of the game. You should spend time maxin' your APM and strategy, instead of wasting your time crying. I do think it's actually kind of relaxin' to see all the people finally standing up and saying that PvZ is balanced. It is truly funny to see all the newbies come out of the woodwork to start complaining; I mean. although I actually find it really cool that there are so many differing opinions, only the "balanced" ones bring logical facts.
On August 23 2008 03:25 AttackZerg wrote: Zerg has been pretty then protoss FOREVER.
Julyzerg Jaedong Savior
Each in there prime embarrasses the best(lol Best) protoss routinely, even would be contenders. Julyzerg makes every toss look stupid nearly every game .... Jaedong makes mid-game ZvP look like Toss never has a chance.(two of his championships were agains P) Savior has the highest Elo peak of all time in ZvP.
The cool thing about BW, is that below the top levels, protoss is fucking awesome and balanced. And on a very very low level even dominate. Why not find 2 or 3 of your most terrible ZvP defeats.... take a notepad, watch the rep, take notes on things you could improve, Post the replays + notes in the strategy forum and begin something productive ....Whinning rarely helps win ZvP ..... I've tried.
And facts like this are what makes this argument impossible. We're talking about the D foreigner level, all the facts about the fucking ZvP Bonjwa are useless. I'm starting to consider that some people are shootin' for a flame war, I don't know, but why are you brining these facts in? Can we go back and talk some about the fundamentals of the game? We can compare this to examining the highest level of b-ball; you wouldn't start copying Shaq because you can't play at his level. Well, looking at people outside of Korea you quickly we can't play at Savior, Jaedong or JulyZerg's levels. I mean, some people of considerable talent can do some moves like them. I think foreigners still really cannot come close to the complete package. Now, I think a good idea is to go back to basic: Seriously, can we follow my school of thought and start examining the game, not the players?
When will people stop patronizing me? Calling me newbie and everything. It's just ridiculous. I can't be a C level if I were totally newb. I think I've made my point pretty clearly in this thread. Just go play a couple of games and you would understand where I'm coming from. If people would stop citing the level of skill of progamers then we could get to the real problem - balance.
Guys that you pull off the street could probably sit down to a computer and play Protoss in SC. Boxer, who is great at Terran, started Protoss because it was the easiest. This won't reach a conclusion if it were up to Blizzard's developers. I'm not hired as a game designer, but I think that if it were completely up to me, I would just remove High Templars and Corsairs from the game. Unfortunately, it looks like, to the Blizzard developers, they don't listen to the community.
No company should just blatantly disregard the problems in front of them. Not to say that Blizzard isn't good, but look at how much whining there is on the WoW forums. Every single thread created there is started fine, but I never see a blue post about anything meaningful.
Making a good, balanced game requires input from the community, and I don't think it should be a trouble for Blizzard to do so. All they really have to do at the end of the day is to tweak some numbers in the code and then remove some and it'll be fine.
My main problem is with threads like this - people always feel the need to argue back and forth. In the neighborhood of TeamLiquid, all the houses would be throwing flaming napalm at each other. Flame on!
Haha nubcakes. Boxer switched to Terran because they nerfed Reavers so they weren't as good anymore. Saying he played them because they were easiest is an insult to Boxer. I guess you hate Boxer, because he just said he played them because he liked Reavers.
I guess you're terrible at PvZ if you think Sairs and Temps need to be removed to make it balanced.
BoxeR switched to Terran because he isn't smart enough to realize how fucking imba Protoss is.
BoxeR fanboys are stupid. He was creative, but never that good. I agree with Plexas topic. He should quit, he's just embarassing himself.
On August 23 2008 03:07 SiegeTanksandBlueGoo wrote: yeah, seriously, if you're losing to D- level protosses, then you are not a C level zerg. Period. I'm a C- level protoss and PvZ guessing his tech is hard as shit expecially when he copies the koreans and gest both spire and hydra den. Double Den Hydra break or Mutalisks. For protoss, if you guess wrong (or if you're a good player, you didn't scout it out completely) you are completely fucked. Gamer-ender style. If you're zerg, you know wha the's making. There's no need to guess anything other than maybe dt/sair or reaver sair, neither of which is a game ender. There's no need to bitch about ZvP.
On another note. Fuck, TvP is dumb. All these protosses that I would stomp in pvp just own me so hard in tvp. ^^;; I guess I just suck at terran.
Who cares?
Either way go sair reaver, and if your A key is attached you should win every time.
You are a very angry young man.
Leveling accuasations at every person who dares to disagree with you. You are clearly not interested in having a discussion, you are just interested in bitching. I think that this particular bitching session would be more appropriate as a blog.
I don't suppose that you could take a step back from your hubris to aknowledge that as a C level zerg you might not know everything about the game, and that there might be a flaw in your game. No I suppose that is too much to hope for.
ZvP may be imbalance, lord if I know, but I do know that you are uninterested in any real discussion on the matter.
Enjoy flaming me.
Angry? I haven't attacked anyone, I've just been smarmy.
You shouldn't be so quick to analyze the emotional make-up of everyone you meet. That's really obnoxious.
Chillin' is what you should do, kid, because you're about to get banned for trolling. As for Gatele, you're out of your mind man. You haven't cited anything from outside of the game. You should spend time maxin' your APM and strategy, instead of wasting your time crying. I do think it's actually kind of relaxin' to see all the people finally standing up and saying that PvZ is balanced. It is truly funny to see all the newbies come out of the woodwork to start complaining; I mean. although I actually find it really cool that there are so many differing opinions, only the "balanced" ones bring logical facts.
On August 23 2008 03:25 AttackZerg wrote: Zerg has been pretty then protoss FOREVER.
Julyzerg Jaedong Savior
Each in there prime embarrasses the best(lol Best) protoss routinely, even would be contenders. Julyzerg makes every toss look stupid nearly every game .... Jaedong makes mid-game ZvP look like Toss never has a chance.(two of his championships were agains P) Savior has the highest Elo peak of all time in ZvP.
The cool thing about BW, is that below the top levels, protoss is fucking awesome and balanced. And on a very very low level even dominate. Why not find 2 or 3 of your most terrible ZvP defeats.... take a notepad, watch the rep, take notes on things you could improve, Post the replays + notes in the strategy forum and begin something productive ....Whinning rarely helps win ZvP ..... I've tried.
And facts like this are what makes this argument impossible. We're talking about the D foreigner level, all the facts about the fucking ZvP Bonjwa are useless. I'm starting to consider that some people are shootin' for a flame war, I don't know, but why are you brining these facts in? Can we go back and talk some about the fundamentals of the game? We can compare this to examining the highest level of b-ball; you wouldn't start copying Shaq because you can't play at his level. Well, looking at people outside of Korea you quickly we can't play at Savior, Jaedong or JulyZerg's levels. I mean, some people of considerable talent can do some moves like them. I think foreigners still really cannot come close to the complete package. Now, I think a good idea is to go back to basic: Seriously, can we follow my school of thought and start examining the game, not the players?
When will people stop patronizing me? Calling me newbie and everything. It's just ridiculous. I can't be a C level if I were totally newb. I think I've made my point pretty clearly in this thread. Just go play a couple of games and you would understand where I'm coming from. If people would stop citing the level of skill of progamers then we could get to the real problem - balance.
Guys that you pull off the street could probably sit down to a computer and play Protoss in SC. Boxer, who is great at Terran, started Protoss because it was the easiest. This won't reach a conclusion if it were up to Blizzard's developers. I'm not hired as a game designer, but I think that if it were completely up to me, I would just remove High Templars and Corsairs from the game. Unfortunately, it looks like, to the Blizzard developers, they don't listen to the community.
No company should just blatantly disregard the problems in front of them. Not to say that Blizzard isn't good, but look at how much whining there is on the WoW forums. Every single thread created there is started fine, but I never see a blue post about anything meaningful.
Making a good, balanced game requires input from the community, and I don't think it should be a trouble for Blizzard to do so. All they really have to do at the end of the day is to tweak some numbers in the code and then remove some and it'll be fine.
My main problem is with threads like this - people always feel the need to argue back and forth. In the neighborhood of TeamLiquid, all the houses would be throwing flaming napalm at each other. Flame on!
Haha nubcakes. Boxer switched to Terran because they nerfed Reavers so they weren't as good anymore. Saying he played them because they were easiest is an insult to Boxer. I guess you hate Boxer, because he just said he played them because he liked Reavers.
I guess you're terrible at PvZ if you think Sairs and Temps need to be removed to make it balanced.
BoxeR switched to Terran because he isn't smart enough to realize how fucking imba Protoss is.
BoxeR fanboys are stupid. He was creative, but never that good. I agree with Plexas topic. He should quit, he's just embarassing himself.
BoxeR can have sex with any girl living in Korea he wants, is a millionaire, and still makes money even though he loses games. He loves the game, so he still plays it. I'm pretty sure he can rape any foreigner, and still wins a fair portion of his games. So when you start making hundreds of thousands a year by winning 30% of the games you play, and having a fan club with 500,000 people, you can start criticizing him. Until then STFU
On August 23 2008 02:28 Gaetele wrote: Once Corsairs get into groups above 8 or so, even a hundred Scourge won't manage to take out one. That's just retarded.
If your doing that it's obvious why you would lose to a D- protoss....you cant take air superiority with 100 scourges, if you are really intent on taking down that group of corsairs clone your scourges and send them in while the sairs are attacking a couple mutas, or even when they are hitting your ovies if you think you can handle it. And if you were saying that 'just as an example' its a pretty stupid example then.
And no, stupid guy above me, YOO STOOPID. July demonstrated how to use just scourge. Zergs recently have been making a lot more scourge if you noticed.
Savior even opened with like spire => 6 scourge recently, etc.
Scourge hydra ling lurker is fuckn IMBAAAAAAaaaaaaaa
On August 23 2008 03:07 SiegeTanksandBlueGoo wrote: yeah, seriously, if you're losing to D- level protosses, then you are not a C level zerg. Period. I'm a C- level protoss and PvZ guessing his tech is hard as shit expecially when he copies the koreans and gest both spire and hydra den. Double Den Hydra break or Mutalisks. For protoss, if you guess wrong (or if you're a good player, you didn't scout it out completely) you are completely fucked. Gamer-ender style. If you're zerg, you know wha the's making. There's no need to guess anything other than maybe dt/sair or reaver sair, neither of which is a game ender. There's no need to bitch about ZvP.
On another note. Fuck, TvP is dumb. All these protosses that I would stomp in pvp just own me so hard in tvp. ^^;; I guess I just suck at terran.
Who cares?
Either way go sair reaver, and if your A key is attached you should win every time.
You are a very angry young man.
Leveling accuasations at every person who dares to disagree with you. You are clearly not interested in having a discussion, you are just interested in bitching. I think that this particular bitching session would be more appropriate as a blog.
I don't suppose that you could take a step back from your hubris to aknowledge that as a C level zerg you might not know everything about the game, and that there might be a flaw in your game. No I suppose that is too much to hope for.
ZvP may be imbalance, lord if I know, but I do know that you are uninterested in any real discussion on the matter.
Enjoy flaming me.
Angry? I haven't attacked anyone, I've just been smarmy.
You shouldn't be so quick to analyze the emotional make-up of everyone you meet. That's really obnoxious.
Chillin' is what you should do, kid, because you're about to get banned for trolling. As for Gatele, you're out of your mind man. You haven't cited anything from outside of the game. You should spend time maxin' your APM and strategy, instead of wasting your time crying. I do think it's actually kind of relaxin' to see all the people finally standing up and saying that PvZ is balanced. It is truly funny to see all the newbies come out of the woodwork to start complaining; I mean. although I actually find it really cool that there are so many differing opinions, only the "balanced" ones bring logical facts.
On August 23 2008 03:25 AttackZerg wrote: Zerg has been pretty then protoss FOREVER.
Julyzerg Jaedong Savior
Each in there prime embarrasses the best(lol Best) protoss routinely, even would be contenders. Julyzerg makes every toss look stupid nearly every game .... Jaedong makes mid-game ZvP look like Toss never has a chance.(two of his championships were agains P) Savior has the highest Elo peak of all time in ZvP.
The cool thing about BW, is that below the top levels, protoss is fucking awesome and balanced. And on a very very low level even dominate. Why not find 2 or 3 of your most terrible ZvP defeats.... take a notepad, watch the rep, take notes on things you could improve, Post the replays + notes in the strategy forum and begin something productive ....Whinning rarely helps win ZvP ..... I've tried.
And facts like this are what makes this argument impossible. We're talking about the D foreigner level, all the facts about the fucking ZvP Bonjwa are useless. I'm starting to consider that some people are shootin' for a flame war, I don't know, but why are you brining these facts in? Can we go back and talk some about the fundamentals of the game? We can compare this to examining the highest level of b-ball; you wouldn't start copying Shaq because you can't play at his level. Well, looking at people outside of Korea you quickly we can't play at Savior, Jaedong or JulyZerg's levels. I mean, some people of considerable talent can do some moves like them. I think foreigners still really cannot come close to the complete package. Now, I think a good idea is to go back to basic: Seriously, can we follow my school of thought and start examining the game, not the players?
When will people stop patronizing me? Calling me newbie and everything. It's just ridiculous. I can't be a C level if I were totally newb. I think I've made my point pretty clearly in this thread. Just go play a couple of games and you would understand where I'm coming from. If people would stop citing the level of skill of progamers then we could get to the real problem - balance.
Guys that you pull off the street could probably sit down to a computer and play Protoss in SC. Boxer, who is great at Terran, started Protoss because it was the easiest. This won't reach a conclusion if it were up to Blizzard's developers. I'm not hired as a game designer, but I think that if it were completely up to me, I would just remove High Templars and Corsairs from the game. Unfortunately, it looks like, to the Blizzard developers, they don't listen to the community.
No company should just blatantly disregard the problems in front of them. Not to say that Blizzard isn't good, but look at how much whining there is on the WoW forums. Every single thread created there is started fine, but I never see a blue post about anything meaningful.
Making a good, balanced game requires input from the community, and I don't think it should be a trouble for Blizzard to do so. All they really have to do at the end of the day is to tweak some numbers in the code and then remove some and it'll be fine.
My main problem is with threads like this - people always feel the need to argue back and forth. In the neighborhood of TeamLiquid, all the houses would be throwing flaming napalm at each other. Flame on!
Haha nubcakes. Boxer switched to Terran because they nerfed Reavers so they weren't as good anymore. Saying he played them because they were easiest is an insult to Boxer. I guess you hate Boxer, because he just said he played them because he liked Reavers.
I guess you're terrible at PvZ if you think Sairs and Temps need to be removed to make it balanced.
BoxeR switched to Terran because he isn't smart enough to realize how fucking imba Protoss is.
BoxeR fanboys are stupid. He was creative, but never that good. I agree with Plexas topic. He should quit, he's just embarassing himself.
BoxeR can have sex with any girl living in Korea he wants, is a millionaire, and still makes money even though he loses games. He loves the game, so he still plays it. I'm pretty sure he can rape any foreigner, and still wins a fair portion of his games. So when you start making hundreds of thousands a year by winning 30% of the games you play, and having a fan club with 500,000 people, you can start criticizing him. Until then STFU
Now where's Rekrul when you need him...
So I need to be as popular as Boxer to criticize him? He's not some god among men, he's just a fucking progamer.
He could probably have sex with any of you fanboy faggots if he wanted too. Jesus.
On August 23 2008 03:07 SiegeTanksandBlueGoo wrote: yeah, seriously, if you're losing to D- level protosses, then you are not a C level zerg. Period. I'm a C- level protoss and PvZ guessing his tech is hard as shit expecially when he copies the koreans and gest both spire and hydra den. Double Den Hydra break or Mutalisks. For protoss, if you guess wrong (or if you're a good player, you didn't scout it out completely) you are completely fucked. Gamer-ender style. If you're zerg, you know wha the's making. There's no need to guess anything other than maybe dt/sair or reaver sair, neither of which is a game ender. There's no need to bitch about ZvP.
On another note. Fuck, TvP is dumb. All these protosses that I would stomp in pvp just own me so hard in tvp. ^^;; I guess I just suck at terran.
Who cares?
Either way go sair reaver, and if your A key is attached you should win every time.
You are a very angry young man.
Leveling accuasations at every person who dares to disagree with you. You are clearly not interested in having a discussion, you are just interested in bitching. I think that this particular bitching session would be more appropriate as a blog.
I don't suppose that you could take a step back from your hubris to aknowledge that as a C level zerg you might not know everything about the game, and that there might be a flaw in your game. No I suppose that is too much to hope for.
ZvP may be imbalance, lord if I know, but I do know that you are uninterested in any real discussion on the matter.
Enjoy flaming me.
Angry? I haven't attacked anyone, I've just been smarmy.
You shouldn't be so quick to analyze the emotional make-up of everyone you meet. That's really obnoxious.
Chillin' is what you should do, kid, because you're about to get banned for trolling. As for Gatele, you're out of your mind man. You haven't cited anything from outside of the game. You should spend time maxin' your APM and strategy, instead of wasting your time crying. I do think it's actually kind of relaxin' to see all the people finally standing up and saying that PvZ is balanced. It is truly funny to see all the newbies come out of the woodwork to start complaining; I mean. although I actually find it really cool that there are so many differing opinions, only the "balanced" ones bring logical facts.
On August 23 2008 03:25 AttackZerg wrote: Zerg has been pretty then protoss FOREVER.
Julyzerg Jaedong Savior
Each in there prime embarrasses the best(lol Best) protoss routinely, even would be contenders. Julyzerg makes every toss look stupid nearly every game .... Jaedong makes mid-game ZvP look like Toss never has a chance.(two of his championships were agains P) Savior has the highest Elo peak of all time in ZvP.
The cool thing about BW, is that below the top levels, protoss is fucking awesome and balanced. And on a very very low level even dominate. Why not find 2 or 3 of your most terrible ZvP defeats.... take a notepad, watch the rep, take notes on things you could improve, Post the replays + notes in the strategy forum and begin something productive ....Whinning rarely helps win ZvP ..... I've tried.
And facts like this are what makes this argument impossible. We're talking about the D foreigner level, all the facts about the fucking ZvP Bonjwa are useless. I'm starting to consider that some people are shootin' for a flame war, I don't know, but why are you brining these facts in? Can we go back and talk some about the fundamentals of the game? We can compare this to examining the highest level of b-ball; you wouldn't start copying Shaq because you can't play at his level. Well, looking at people outside of Korea you quickly we can't play at Savior, Jaedong or JulyZerg's levels. I mean, some people of considerable talent can do some moves like them. I think foreigners still really cannot come close to the complete package. Now, I think a good idea is to go back to basic: Seriously, can we follow my school of thought and start examining the game, not the players?
When will people stop patronizing me? Calling me newbie and everything. It's just ridiculous. I can't be a C level if I were totally newb. I think I've made my point pretty clearly in this thread. Just go play a couple of games and you would understand where I'm coming from. If people would stop citing the level of skill of progamers then we could get to the real problem - balance.
Guys that you pull off the street could probably sit down to a computer and play Protoss in SC. Boxer, who is great at Terran, started Protoss because it was the easiest. This won't reach a conclusion if it were up to Blizzard's developers. I'm not hired as a game designer, but I think that if it were completely up to me, I would just remove High Templars and Corsairs from the game. Unfortunately, it looks like, to the Blizzard developers, they don't listen to the community.
No company should just blatantly disregard the problems in front of them. Not to say that Blizzard isn't good, but look at how much whining there is on the WoW forums. Every single thread created there is started fine, but I never see a blue post about anything meaningful.
Making a good, balanced game requires input from the community, and I don't think it should be a trouble for Blizzard to do so. All they really have to do at the end of the day is to tweak some numbers in the code and then remove some and it'll be fine.
My main problem is with threads like this - people always feel the need to argue back and forth. In the neighborhood of TeamLiquid, all the houses would be throwing flaming napalm at each other. Flame on!
Haha nubcakes. Boxer switched to Terran because they nerfed Reavers so they weren't as good anymore. Saying he played them because they were easiest is an insult to Boxer. I guess you hate Boxer, because he just said he played them because he liked Reavers.
I guess you're terrible at PvZ if you think Sairs and Temps need to be removed to make it balanced.
BoxeR switched to Terran because he isn't smart enough to realize how fucking imba Protoss is.
BoxeR fanboys are stupid. He was creative, but never that good. I agree with Plexas topic. He should quit, he's just embarassing himself.
BoxeR can have sex with any girl living in Korea he wants, is a millionaire, and still makes money even though he loses games. He loves the game, so he still plays it. I'm pretty sure he can rape any foreigner, and still wins a fair portion of his games. So when you start making hundreds of thousands a year by winning 30% of the games you play, and having a fan club with 500,000 people, you can start criticizing him. Until then STFU
Now where's Rekrul when you need him...
So I need to be as popular as Boxer to criticize him? He's not some god among men, he's just a fucking progamer.
He could probably have sex with any of you fanboy faggots if he wanted too. Jesus.
Jealous much? I just think you should be at least 1% as talented at anything as Boxer is at life and StarCraft.
I think you should just work on improving your ZvP.. ahzz posted a great zerg guide in the strategy forum.. check it out if you haven't already. http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=73314 personally, zvp is by far my best matchup so i'm always happy that there's so many p's on iccup.
On August 23 2008 03:09 DoctorHelvetica wrote: [quote]
Who cares?
Either way go sair reaver, and if your A key is attached you should win every time.
You are a very angry young man.
Leveling accuasations at every person who dares to disagree with you. You are clearly not interested in having a discussion, you are just interested in bitching. I think that this particular bitching session would be more appropriate as a blog.
I don't suppose that you could take a step back from your hubris to aknowledge that as a C level zerg you might not know everything about the game, and that there might be a flaw in your game. No I suppose that is too much to hope for.
ZvP may be imbalance, lord if I know, but I do know that you are uninterested in any real discussion on the matter.
Enjoy flaming me.
Angry? I haven't attacked anyone, I've just been smarmy.
You shouldn't be so quick to analyze the emotional make-up of everyone you meet. That's really obnoxious.
Chillin' is what you should do, kid, because you're about to get banned for trolling. As for Gatele, you're out of your mind man. You haven't cited anything from outside of the game. You should spend time maxin' your APM and strategy, instead of wasting your time crying. I do think it's actually kind of relaxin' to see all the people finally standing up and saying that PvZ is balanced. It is truly funny to see all the newbies come out of the woodwork to start complaining; I mean. although I actually find it really cool that there are so many differing opinions, only the "balanced" ones bring logical facts.
On August 23 2008 03:25 AttackZerg wrote: Zerg has been pretty then protoss FOREVER.
Julyzerg Jaedong Savior
Each in there prime embarrasses the best(lol Best) protoss routinely, even would be contenders. Julyzerg makes every toss look stupid nearly every game .... Jaedong makes mid-game ZvP look like Toss never has a chance.(two of his championships were agains P) Savior has the highest Elo peak of all time in ZvP.
The cool thing about BW, is that below the top levels, protoss is fucking awesome and balanced. And on a very very low level even dominate. Why not find 2 or 3 of your most terrible ZvP defeats.... take a notepad, watch the rep, take notes on things you could improve, Post the replays + notes in the strategy forum and begin something productive ....Whinning rarely helps win ZvP ..... I've tried.
And facts like this are what makes this argument impossible. We're talking about the D foreigner level, all the facts about the fucking ZvP Bonjwa are useless. I'm starting to consider that some people are shootin' for a flame war, I don't know, but why are you brining these facts in? Can we go back and talk some about the fundamentals of the game? We can compare this to examining the highest level of b-ball; you wouldn't start copying Shaq because you can't play at his level. Well, looking at people outside of Korea you quickly we can't play at Savior, Jaedong or JulyZerg's levels. I mean, some people of considerable talent can do some moves like them. I think foreigners still really cannot come close to the complete package. Now, I think a good idea is to go back to basic: Seriously, can we follow my school of thought and start examining the game, not the players?
When will people stop patronizing me? Calling me newbie and everything. It's just ridiculous. I can't be a C level if I were totally newb. I think I've made my point pretty clearly in this thread. Just go play a couple of games and you would understand where I'm coming from. If people would stop citing the level of skill of progamers then we could get to the real problem - balance.
Guys that you pull off the street could probably sit down to a computer and play Protoss in SC. Boxer, who is great at Terran, started Protoss because it was the easiest. This won't reach a conclusion if it were up to Blizzard's developers. I'm not hired as a game designer, but I think that if it were completely up to me, I would just remove High Templars and Corsairs from the game. Unfortunately, it looks like, to the Blizzard developers, they don't listen to the community.
No company should just blatantly disregard the problems in front of them. Not to say that Blizzard isn't good, but look at how much whining there is on the WoW forums. Every single thread created there is started fine, but I never see a blue post about anything meaningful.
Making a good, balanced game requires input from the community, and I don't think it should be a trouble for Blizzard to do so. All they really have to do at the end of the day is to tweak some numbers in the code and then remove some and it'll be fine.
My main problem is with threads like this - people always feel the need to argue back and forth. In the neighborhood of TeamLiquid, all the houses would be throwing flaming napalm at each other. Flame on!
Haha nubcakes. Boxer switched to Terran because they nerfed Reavers so they weren't as good anymore. Saying he played them because they were easiest is an insult to Boxer. I guess you hate Boxer, because he just said he played them because he liked Reavers.
I guess you're terrible at PvZ if you think Sairs and Temps need to be removed to make it balanced.
BoxeR switched to Terran because he isn't smart enough to realize how fucking imba Protoss is.
BoxeR fanboys are stupid. He was creative, but never that good. I agree with Plexas topic. He should quit, he's just embarassing himself.
BoxeR can have sex with any girl living in Korea he wants, is a millionaire, and still makes money even though he loses games. He loves the game, so he still plays it. I'm pretty sure he can rape any foreigner, and still wins a fair portion of his games. So when you start making hundreds of thousands a year by winning 30% of the games you play, and having a fan club with 500,000 people, you can start criticizing him. Until then STFU
Now where's Rekrul when you need him...
So I need to be as popular as Boxer to criticize him? He's not some god among men, he's just a fucking progamer.
He could probably have sex with any of you fanboy faggots if he wanted too. Jesus.
Jealous much? I just think you should be at least 1% as talented at anything as Boxer is at life and StarCraft.
YEAH IM SO JEALOUS. THIS IS THE ONLY REASON WHY I COULD EVER THINK BOXER IS ANYTHING LESS THAN PERFECT OMG
My ZvP on ICCUP is consistently horrible. I figure the mu is reasonably balanced, but there're fundamental differences between how zvp works and how zvt and zvz work, and I lack the fundamentals necessary to win. It's hard to pin down the differences, because I have fundamental flaws in my ZvT and ZvZ play as well, but if I were to guess at the fundamental differences, I'd say that in ZvT and ZvZ, units die fast on both sides of the MU, in ZvP protoss units live for a long time, and a few well placed storms/scarabs destroy entire zerg armies if the zerg isn't paying enough attention. This dynamic is true in harass as well as straight up battles. Now, I'd love to blame my zvp record on imba, but just looking at the records of other ICCUP D zergs, I have to conclude that the problem is me, not the mu or even the maps. If I could find a step-by-step process to filling the holes in my game, I'd follow it in a heartbeat... but as far as I know, nothing like that exists, so I'll just continue to struggle to figure it out.
Saying that groups of 8+ Corsairs are unfair is just ridiculous, sry. Either, you just don't let their numbers grow to that point by scourging them continuously or you have 25+ Scourges ready by the time they reach that number and then clone your Scourges properly. You said you were around 300+ APM, this shouldn't be hard to pull off for you then. And it's the same principle with High Templars and Storm as well. If you are as fast as you claim to be, you'd be very well able to dodge his Storms and save some of your Hydras.
It all just doesn't add up, the way I see it. Either your game is flawed to some degree, in which case you need to improve. If you claim it isn't, you shouldn't be having problems, since Koreans don't have them as well..
On August 23 2008 03:17 pooper-scooper wrote: [quote]
You are a very angry young man.
Leveling accuasations at every person who dares to disagree with you. You are clearly not interested in having a discussion, you are just interested in bitching. I think that this particular bitching session would be more appropriate as a blog.
I don't suppose that you could take a step back from your hubris to aknowledge that as a C level zerg you might not know everything about the game, and that there might be a flaw in your game. No I suppose that is too much to hope for.
ZvP may be imbalance, lord if I know, but I do know that you are uninterested in any real discussion on the matter.
Enjoy flaming me.
Angry? I haven't attacked anyone, I've just been smarmy.
You shouldn't be so quick to analyze the emotional make-up of everyone you meet. That's really obnoxious.
Chillin' is what you should do, kid, because you're about to get banned for trolling. As for Gatele, you're out of your mind man. You haven't cited anything from outside of the game. You should spend time maxin' your APM and strategy, instead of wasting your time crying. I do think it's actually kind of relaxin' to see all the people finally standing up and saying that PvZ is balanced. It is truly funny to see all the newbies come out of the woodwork to start complaining; I mean. although I actually find it really cool that there are so many differing opinions, only the "balanced" ones bring logical facts.
On August 23 2008 03:25 AttackZerg wrote: Zerg has been pretty then protoss FOREVER.
Julyzerg Jaedong Savior
Each in there prime embarrasses the best(lol Best) protoss routinely, even would be contenders. Julyzerg makes every toss look stupid nearly every game .... Jaedong makes mid-game ZvP look like Toss never has a chance.(two of his championships were agains P) Savior has the highest Elo peak of all time in ZvP.
The cool thing about BW, is that below the top levels, protoss is fucking awesome and balanced. And on a very very low level even dominate. Why not find 2 or 3 of your most terrible ZvP defeats.... take a notepad, watch the rep, take notes on things you could improve, Post the replays + notes in the strategy forum and begin something productive ....Whinning rarely helps win ZvP ..... I've tried.
And facts like this are what makes this argument impossible. We're talking about the D foreigner level, all the facts about the fucking ZvP Bonjwa are useless. I'm starting to consider that some people are shootin' for a flame war, I don't know, but why are you brining these facts in? Can we go back and talk some about the fundamentals of the game? We can compare this to examining the highest level of b-ball; you wouldn't start copying Shaq because you can't play at his level. Well, looking at people outside of Korea you quickly we can't play at Savior, Jaedong or JulyZerg's levels. I mean, some people of considerable talent can do some moves like them. I think foreigners still really cannot come close to the complete package. Now, I think a good idea is to go back to basic: Seriously, can we follow my school of thought and start examining the game, not the players?
When will people stop patronizing me? Calling me newbie and everything. It's just ridiculous. I can't be a C level if I were totally newb. I think I've made my point pretty clearly in this thread. Just go play a couple of games and you would understand where I'm coming from. If people would stop citing the level of skill of progamers then we could get to the real problem - balance.
Guys that you pull off the street could probably sit down to a computer and play Protoss in SC. Boxer, who is great at Terran, started Protoss because it was the easiest. This won't reach a conclusion if it were up to Blizzard's developers. I'm not hired as a game designer, but I think that if it were completely up to me, I would just remove High Templars and Corsairs from the game. Unfortunately, it looks like, to the Blizzard developers, they don't listen to the community.
No company should just blatantly disregard the problems in front of them. Not to say that Blizzard isn't good, but look at how much whining there is on the WoW forums. Every single thread created there is started fine, but I never see a blue post about anything meaningful.
Making a good, balanced game requires input from the community, and I don't think it should be a trouble for Blizzard to do so. All they really have to do at the end of the day is to tweak some numbers in the code and then remove some and it'll be fine.
My main problem is with threads like this - people always feel the need to argue back and forth. In the neighborhood of TeamLiquid, all the houses would be throwing flaming napalm at each other. Flame on!
Haha nubcakes. Boxer switched to Terran because they nerfed Reavers so they weren't as good anymore. Saying he played them because they were easiest is an insult to Boxer. I guess you hate Boxer, because he just said he played them because he liked Reavers.
I guess you're terrible at PvZ if you think Sairs and Temps need to be removed to make it balanced.
BoxeR switched to Terran because he isn't smart enough to realize how fucking imba Protoss is.
BoxeR fanboys are stupid. He was creative, but never that good. I agree with Plexas topic. He should quit, he's just embarassing himself.
BoxeR can have sex with any girl living in Korea he wants, is a millionaire, and still makes money even though he loses games. He loves the game, so he still plays it. I'm pretty sure he can rape any foreigner, and still wins a fair portion of his games. So when you start making hundreds of thousands a year by winning 30% of the games you play, and having a fan club with 500,000 people, you can start criticizing him. Until then STFU
Now where's Rekrul when you need him...
So I need to be as popular as Boxer to criticize him? He's not some god among men, he's just a fucking progamer.
He could probably have sex with any of you fanboy faggots if he wanted too. Jesus.
Jealous much? I just think you should be at least 1% as talented at anything as Boxer is at life and StarCraft.
YEAH IM SO JEALOUS. THIS IS THE ONLY REASON WHY I COULD EVER THINK BOXER IS ANYTHING LESS THAN PERFECT OMG
Good logic. Go back to Middle School.
I didn't say Boxer was perfect, I said he was successful at pretty much everything. Maybe if you graduated middle school you wouldn't use such asinine rhetorical techniques to hide the fact that your argument doesn't even exist.
On August 23 2008 03:07 SiegeTanksandBlueGoo wrote: yeah, seriously, if you're losing to D- level protosses, then you are not a C level zerg. Period. I'm a C- level protoss and PvZ guessing his tech is hard as shit expecially when he copies the koreans and gest both spire and hydra den. Double Den Hydra break or Mutalisks. For protoss, if you guess wrong (or if you're a good player, you didn't scout it out completely) you are completely fucked. Gamer-ender style. If you're zerg, you know wha the's making. There's no need to guess anything other than maybe dt/sair or reaver sair, neither of which is a game ender. There's no need to bitch about ZvP.
On another note. Fuck, TvP is dumb. All these protosses that I would stomp in pvp just own me so hard in tvp. ^^;; I guess I just suck at terran.
Who cares?
Either way go sair reaver, and if your A key is attached you should win every time.
You are a very angry young man.
Leveling accuasations at every person who dares to disagree with you. You are clearly not interested in having a discussion, you are just interested in bitching. I think that this particular bitching session would be more appropriate as a blog.
I don't suppose that you could take a step back from your hubris to aknowledge that as a C level zerg you might not know everything about the game, and that there might be a flaw in your game. No I suppose that is too much to hope for.
ZvP may be imbalance, lord if I know, but I do know that you are uninterested in any real discussion on the matter.
Enjoy flaming me.
Angry? I haven't attacked anyone, I've just been smarmy.
You shouldn't be so quick to analyze the emotional make-up of everyone you meet. That's really obnoxious.
Chillin' is what you should do, kid, because you're about to get banned for trolling. As for Gatele, you're out of your mind man. You haven't cited anything from outside of the game. You should spend time maxin' your APM and strategy, instead of wasting your time crying. I do think it's actually kind of relaxin' to see all the people finally standing up and saying that PvZ is balanced. It is truly funny to see all the newbies come out of the woodwork to start complaining; I mean. although I actually find it really cool that there are so many differing opinions, only the "balanced" ones bring logical facts.
On August 23 2008 03:25 AttackZerg wrote: Zerg has been pretty then protoss FOREVER.
Julyzerg Jaedong Savior
Each in there prime embarrasses the best(lol Best) protoss routinely, even would be contenders. Julyzerg makes every toss look stupid nearly every game .... Jaedong makes mid-game ZvP look like Toss never has a chance.(two of his championships were agains P) Savior has the highest Elo peak of all time in ZvP.
The cool thing about BW, is that below the top levels, protoss is fucking awesome and balanced. And on a very very low level even dominate. Why not find 2 or 3 of your most terrible ZvP defeats.... take a notepad, watch the rep, take notes on things you could improve, Post the replays + notes in the strategy forum and begin something productive ....Whinning rarely helps win ZvP ..... I've tried.
And facts like this are what makes this argument impossible. We're talking about the D foreigner level, all the facts about the fucking ZvP Bonjwa are useless. I'm starting to consider that some people are shootin' for a flame war, I don't know, but why are you brining these facts in? Can we go back and talk some about the fundamentals of the game? We can compare this to examining the highest level of b-ball; you wouldn't start copying Shaq because you can't play at his level. Well, looking at people outside of Korea you quickly we can't play at Savior, Jaedong or JulyZerg's levels. I mean, some people of considerable talent can do some moves like them. I think foreigners still really cannot come close to the complete package. Now, I think a good idea is to go back to basic: Seriously, can we follow my school of thought and start examining the game, not the players?
When will people stop patronizing me? Calling me newbie and everything. It's just ridiculous. I can't be a C level if I were totally newb. I think I've made my point pretty clearly in this thread. Just go play a couple of games and you would understand where I'm coming from. If people would stop citing the level of skill of progamers then we could get to the real problem - balance.
Guys that you pull off the street could probably sit down to a computer and play Protoss in SC. Boxer, who is great at Terran, started Protoss because it was the easiest. This won't reach a conclusion if it were up to Blizzard's developers. I'm not hired as a game designer, but I think that if it were completely up to me, I would just remove High Templars and Corsairs from the game. Unfortunately, it looks like, to the Blizzard developers, they don't listen to the community.
No company should just blatantly disregard the problems in front of them. Not to say that Blizzard isn't good, but look at how much whining there is on the WoW forums. Every single thread created there is started fine, but I never see a blue post about anything meaningful.
Making a good, balanced game requires input from the community, and I don't think it should be a trouble for Blizzard to do so. All they really have to do at the end of the day is to tweak some numbers in the code and then remove some and it'll be fine.
My main problem is with threads like this - people always feel the need to argue back and forth. In the neighborhood of TeamLiquid, all the houses would be throwing flaming napalm at each other. Flame on!
Great suggestions. I'd also remove zealots, reavers, dts and goons. Those units are just imba.
No, he wants it to be more balanced. Remove probes from the game. Those damn probe rushes are so imba. ^^
On August 23 2008 03:20 DoctorHelvetica wrote: [quote]
Angry? I haven't attacked anyone, I've just been smarmy.
You shouldn't be so quick to analyze the emotional make-up of everyone you meet. That's really obnoxious.
Chillin' is what you should do, kid, because you're about to get banned for trolling. As for Gatele, you're out of your mind man. You haven't cited anything from outside of the game. You should spend time maxin' your APM and strategy, instead of wasting your time crying. I do think it's actually kind of relaxin' to see all the people finally standing up and saying that PvZ is balanced. It is truly funny to see all the newbies come out of the woodwork to start complaining; I mean. although I actually find it really cool that there are so many differing opinions, only the "balanced" ones bring logical facts.
On August 23 2008 03:25 AttackZerg wrote: Zerg has been pretty then protoss FOREVER.
Julyzerg Jaedong Savior
Each in there prime embarrasses the best(lol Best) protoss routinely, even would be contenders. Julyzerg makes every toss look stupid nearly every game .... Jaedong makes mid-game ZvP look like Toss never has a chance.(two of his championships were agains P) Savior has the highest Elo peak of all time in ZvP.
The cool thing about BW, is that below the top levels, protoss is fucking awesome and balanced. And on a very very low level even dominate. Why not find 2 or 3 of your most terrible ZvP defeats.... take a notepad, watch the rep, take notes on things you could improve, Post the replays + notes in the strategy forum and begin something productive ....Whinning rarely helps win ZvP ..... I've tried.
And facts like this are what makes this argument impossible. We're talking about the D foreigner level, all the facts about the fucking ZvP Bonjwa are useless. I'm starting to consider that some people are shootin' for a flame war, I don't know, but why are you brining these facts in? Can we go back and talk some about the fundamentals of the game? We can compare this to examining the highest level of b-ball; you wouldn't start copying Shaq because you can't play at his level. Well, looking at people outside of Korea you quickly we can't play at Savior, Jaedong or JulyZerg's levels. I mean, some people of considerable talent can do some moves like them. I think foreigners still really cannot come close to the complete package. Now, I think a good idea is to go back to basic: Seriously, can we follow my school of thought and start examining the game, not the players?
When will people stop patronizing me? Calling me newbie and everything. It's just ridiculous. I can't be a C level if I were totally newb. I think I've made my point pretty clearly in this thread. Just go play a couple of games and you would understand where I'm coming from. If people would stop citing the level of skill of progamers then we could get to the real problem - balance.
Guys that you pull off the street could probably sit down to a computer and play Protoss in SC. Boxer, who is great at Terran, started Protoss because it was the easiest. This won't reach a conclusion if it were up to Blizzard's developers. I'm not hired as a game designer, but I think that if it were completely up to me, I would just remove High Templars and Corsairs from the game. Unfortunately, it looks like, to the Blizzard developers, they don't listen to the community.
No company should just blatantly disregard the problems in front of them. Not to say that Blizzard isn't good, but look at how much whining there is on the WoW forums. Every single thread created there is started fine, but I never see a blue post about anything meaningful.
Making a good, balanced game requires input from the community, and I don't think it should be a trouble for Blizzard to do so. All they really have to do at the end of the day is to tweak some numbers in the code and then remove some and it'll be fine.
My main problem is with threads like this - people always feel the need to argue back and forth. In the neighborhood of TeamLiquid, all the houses would be throwing flaming napalm at each other. Flame on!
Haha nubcakes. Boxer switched to Terran because they nerfed Reavers so they weren't as good anymore. Saying he played them because they were easiest is an insult to Boxer. I guess you hate Boxer, because he just said he played them because he liked Reavers.
I guess you're terrible at PvZ if you think Sairs and Temps need to be removed to make it balanced.
BoxeR switched to Terran because he isn't smart enough to realize how fucking imba Protoss is.
BoxeR fanboys are stupid. He was creative, but never that good. I agree with Plexas topic. He should quit, he's just embarassing himself.
BoxeR can have sex with any girl living in Korea he wants, is a millionaire, and still makes money even though he loses games. He loves the game, so he still plays it. I'm pretty sure he can rape any foreigner, and still wins a fair portion of his games. So when you start making hundreds of thousands a year by winning 30% of the games you play, and having a fan club with 500,000 people, you can start criticizing him. Until then STFU
Now where's Rekrul when you need him...
So I need to be as popular as Boxer to criticize him? He's not some god among men, he's just a fucking progamer.
He could probably have sex with any of you fanboy faggots if he wanted too. Jesus.
Jealous much? I just think you should be at least 1% as talented at anything as Boxer is at life and StarCraft.
YEAH IM SO JEALOUS. THIS IS THE ONLY REASON WHY I COULD EVER THINK BOXER IS ANYTHING LESS THAN PERFECT OMG
Good logic. Go back to Middle School.
I didn't say Boxer was perfect, I said he was successful at pretty much everything. Maybe if you graduated middle school you wouldn't use such asinine rhetorical techniques to hide the fact that your argument doesn't even exist.
Your argument doesn't exist. BoxeR is successful so I'm a loser and how dare I criticize him?
Maybe you should major in cocksucking, it seems like it's the only thing you're good at.
Chillin' is what you should do, kid, because you're about to get banned for trolling. As for Gatele, you're out of your mind man. You haven't cited anything from outside of the game. You should spend time maxin' your APM and strategy, instead of wasting your time crying. I do think it's actually kind of relaxin' to see all the people finally standing up and saying that PvZ is balanced. It is truly funny to see all the newbies come out of the woodwork to start complaining; I mean. although I actually find it really cool that there are so many differing opinions, only the "balanced" ones bring logical facts.
[quote] And facts like this are what makes this argument impossible. We're talking about the D foreigner level, all the facts about the fucking ZvP Bonjwa are useless. I'm starting to consider that some people are shootin' for a flame war, I don't know, but why are you brining these facts in? Can we go back and talk some about the fundamentals of the game? We can compare this to examining the highest level of b-ball; you wouldn't start copying Shaq because you can't play at his level. Well, looking at people outside of Korea you quickly we can't play at Savior, Jaedong or JulyZerg's levels. I mean, some people of considerable talent can do some moves like them. I think foreigners still really cannot come close to the complete package. Now, I think a good idea is to go back to basic: Seriously, can we follow my school of thought and start examining the game, not the players?
When will people stop patronizing me? Calling me newbie and everything. It's just ridiculous. I can't be a C level if I were totally newb. I think I've made my point pretty clearly in this thread. Just go play a couple of games and you would understand where I'm coming from. If people would stop citing the level of skill of progamers then we could get to the real problem - balance.
Guys that you pull off the street could probably sit down to a computer and play Protoss in SC. Boxer, who is great at Terran, started Protoss because it was the easiest. This won't reach a conclusion if it were up to Blizzard's developers. I'm not hired as a game designer, but I think that if it were completely up to me, I would just remove High Templars and Corsairs from the game. Unfortunately, it looks like, to the Blizzard developers, they don't listen to the community.
No company should just blatantly disregard the problems in front of them. Not to say that Blizzard isn't good, but look at how much whining there is on the WoW forums. Every single thread created there is started fine, but I never see a blue post about anything meaningful.
Making a good, balanced game requires input from the community, and I don't think it should be a trouble for Blizzard to do so. All they really have to do at the end of the day is to tweak some numbers in the code and then remove some and it'll be fine.
My main problem is with threads like this - people always feel the need to argue back and forth. In the neighborhood of TeamLiquid, all the houses would be throwing flaming napalm at each other. Flame on!
Haha nubcakes. Boxer switched to Terran because they nerfed Reavers so they weren't as good anymore. Saying he played them because they were easiest is an insult to Boxer. I guess you hate Boxer, because he just said he played them because he liked Reavers.
I guess you're terrible at PvZ if you think Sairs and Temps need to be removed to make it balanced.
BoxeR switched to Terran because he isn't smart enough to realize how fucking imba Protoss is.
BoxeR fanboys are stupid. He was creative, but never that good. I agree with Plexas topic. He should quit, he's just embarassing himself.
BoxeR can have sex with any girl living in Korea he wants, is a millionaire, and still makes money even though he loses games. He loves the game, so he still plays it. I'm pretty sure he can rape any foreigner, and still wins a fair portion of his games. So when you start making hundreds of thousands a year by winning 30% of the games you play, and having a fan club with 500,000 people, you can start criticizing him. Until then STFU
Now where's Rekrul when you need him...
So I need to be as popular as Boxer to criticize him? He's not some god among men, he's just a fucking progamer.
He could probably have sex with any of you fanboy faggots if he wanted too. Jesus.
Jealous much? I just think you should be at least 1% as talented at anything as Boxer is at life and StarCraft.
YEAH IM SO JEALOUS. THIS IS THE ONLY REASON WHY I COULD EVER THINK BOXER IS ANYTHING LESS THAN PERFECT OMG
Good logic. Go back to Middle School.
I didn't say Boxer was perfect, I said he was successful at pretty much everything. Maybe if you graduated middle school you wouldn't use such asinine rhetorical techniques to hide the fact that your argument doesn't even exist.
Your argument doesn't exist. BoxeR is successful so I'm a loser and how dare I criticize him?
Maybe you should major in cocksucking, it seems like it's the only thing you're good at.
You guys seriously need to stop the Boxer thing, it goes nowhere. Just because Boxer is a very successful progamer and has become rich, it does not make him superior in any other area than being very good at SC. You simply cannot assume that just because a person excels in one area, she's superior in all the other matters as well. That said, why don't we return to the game-area and discuss this out, because insulting each other won't lead us any further..
I truly think people are bashing the maps a lot and forget about the people playing the game. You've got to change your way of playing? Well, Do so and stop blaming the maps for your mistakes. I think in retrospect the maps being accepted nowadays aren't really bad. Considering old maps, I can think of one map of the current ones being imba maybe. The rest may only need some minor modifications, a little tweaking on rushing distances, some cliffs that can be abused. Just make the map so players fight more and camp less. I don't think people really enjoy players turtling in their bases for 40 minutes and stalling the game to abuse imbalance like on Blue Storm. Remember the observers' point of view.
My main concern right now are how the games play out. You get rushed a lot PvZ? Go cry at your mom protoss bastard. Every race has concerns on maps. Terran have early game weaknesses, Zergs got cliffs and loads more stuff to worry about than Protoss. So stop always playing like you are scared of coming out. Play like a man and maybe then you will in a game. Maybe.
Chillin' is what you should do, kid, because you're about to get banned for trolling. As for Gatele, you're out of your mind man. You haven't cited anything from outside of the game. You should spend time maxin' your APM and strategy, instead of wasting your time crying. I do think it's actually kind of relaxin' to see all the people finally standing up and saying that PvZ is balanced. It is truly funny to see all the newbies come out of the woodwork to start complaining; I mean. although I actually find it really cool that there are so many differing opinions, only the "balanced" ones bring logical facts.
[quote] And facts like this are what makes this argument impossible. We're talking about the D foreigner level, all the facts about the fucking ZvP Bonjwa are useless. I'm starting to consider that some people are shootin' for a flame war, I don't know, but why are you brining these facts in? Can we go back and talk some about the fundamentals of the game? We can compare this to examining the highest level of b-ball; you wouldn't start copying Shaq because you can't play at his level. Well, looking at people outside of Korea you quickly we can't play at Savior, Jaedong or JulyZerg's levels. I mean, some people of considerable talent can do some moves like them. I think foreigners still really cannot come close to the complete package. Now, I think a good idea is to go back to basic: Seriously, can we follow my school of thought and start examining the game, not the players?
When will people stop patronizing me? Calling me newbie and everything. It's just ridiculous. I can't be a C level if I were totally newb. I think I've made my point pretty clearly in this thread. Just go play a couple of games and you would understand where I'm coming from. If people would stop citing the level of skill of progamers then we could get to the real problem - balance.
Guys that you pull off the street could probably sit down to a computer and play Protoss in SC. Boxer, who is great at Terran, started Protoss because it was the easiest. This won't reach a conclusion if it were up to Blizzard's developers. I'm not hired as a game designer, but I think that if it were completely up to me, I would just remove High Templars and Corsairs from the game. Unfortunately, it looks like, to the Blizzard developers, they don't listen to the community.
No company should just blatantly disregard the problems in front of them. Not to say that Blizzard isn't good, but look at how much whining there is on the WoW forums. Every single thread created there is started fine, but I never see a blue post about anything meaningful.
Making a good, balanced game requires input from the community, and I don't think it should be a trouble for Blizzard to do so. All they really have to do at the end of the day is to tweak some numbers in the code and then remove some and it'll be fine.
My main problem is with threads like this - people always feel the need to argue back and forth. In the neighborhood of TeamLiquid, all the houses would be throwing flaming napalm at each other. Flame on!
Haha nubcakes. Boxer switched to Terran because they nerfed Reavers so they weren't as good anymore. Saying he played them because they were easiest is an insult to Boxer. I guess you hate Boxer, because he just said he played them because he liked Reavers.
I guess you're terrible at PvZ if you think Sairs and Temps need to be removed to make it balanced.
BoxeR switched to Terran because he isn't smart enough to realize how fucking imba Protoss is.
BoxeR fanboys are stupid. He was creative, but never that good. I agree with Plexas topic. He should quit, he's just embarassing himself.
BoxeR can have sex with any girl living in Korea he wants, is a millionaire, and still makes money even though he loses games. He loves the game, so he still plays it. I'm pretty sure he can rape any foreigner, and still wins a fair portion of his games. So when you start making hundreds of thousands a year by winning 30% of the games you play, and having a fan club with 500,000 people, you can start criticizing him. Until then STFU
Now where's Rekrul when you need him...
So I need to be as popular as Boxer to criticize him? He's not some god among men, he's just a fucking progamer.
He could probably have sex with any of you fanboy faggots if he wanted too. Jesus.
Jealous much? I just think you should be at least 1% as talented at anything as Boxer is at life and StarCraft.
YEAH IM SO JEALOUS. THIS IS THE ONLY REASON WHY I COULD EVER THINK BOXER IS ANYTHING LESS THAN PERFECT OMG
Good logic. Go back to Middle School.
I didn't say Boxer was perfect, I said he was successful at pretty much everything. Maybe if you graduated middle school you wouldn't use such asinine rhetorical techniques to hide the fact that your argument doesn't even exist.
Your argument doesn't exist. BoxeR is successful so I'm a loser and how dare I criticize him?
Maybe you should major in cocksucking, it seems like it's the only thing you're good at.
Criticizing him is different from saying "he's embarrassing himself and should quit." Why would you quit a job where you make a lot of money, are successful, and are happy? Because a 12 year old somewhere on the internet thinks you should?
Well, the OP has issued some advantages of the protoss army he thinks are imbalanced. Assuming ZvP is balanced, what part of the zerg army balances those protoss advantages?
wtf is wrong with making spores to protect your overlords?
wtf is wrong with getting to hive and get devs?
Air Armor upgrade?
I find it funny that zerg players complain that they have to click a 200/150 hive button like its so hard to do yet protoss has to get a 200/200 robo, 150/200 templar archives AND a 150/150 stargate.
seriously how are some zergs to stupid to stay at Lair tech while high end protoss tech is kicking their ass?
On August 23 2008 04:36 Tadzio00 wrote: Well, the OP has issued some advantages of the protoss army he thinks are imbalanced. Assuming ZvP is balanced, what part of the zerg army balances those protoss advantages?
I heard Hydralisks are pretty good at killing Corsairs that fly right over them, and the Corsair-over-Hydralisk is a popular strategy at the D- level of Protoss, which is apparently what the op is talking about.
In progames, I assume it comes down to who is microing their scourge/mutalisks/hydralisks/devourers or Corsairs more intensely at the moment. If you're good enough at splitting and cloning scourges, the splash from Corsairs isn't even so good.
On August 23 2008 02:28 Gaetele wrote: Once Corsairs get into groups above 8 or so, even a hundred ScourgE won't manage to take out one. That's just retarded. I mean, look at the story.Zerg are the race that just totally take out all groups in terms of numbers, but all of the Protoss units have retarded AoE splash that just tears through my units one by one. About 8000 Zerglings or Scourge have died in my game to Archons, Templars and Corsairs. How is this even remotely balanced!?
i think its called devourers
i might be noob, but i think its archons > zergling??
lol so im guessing u got to C w/o playing any protoss?
On August 23 2008 04:36 Tadzio00 wrote: Well, the OP has issued some advantages of the protoss army he thinks are imbalanced. Assuming ZvP is balanced, what part of the zerg army balances those protoss advantages?
I heard Hydralisks are pretty good at killing Corsairs that fly right over them, and the Corsair-over-Hydralisk is a popular strategy at the D- level of Protoss, which is apparently what the op is talking about..
So while zerg is waiting for the protoss to fly his corsair over some hydralisks, how should he scout P's tech? Or is scouting less necessary because zerg can tech switch faster than P?
This has to be a troll topic. I'm convinced after all the boxer bashing, saying Blizzard doesn't listen to the community because they don't remove corsairs... lol
On August 23 2008 04:34 IntoTheWow wrote: Go cry at your mom protoss bastard.
She said you should move to an industrialized country and learn logic. Anyways, it seems what I've said time and time again keeps getting ignored, so I'll repeat it one more time:
"You're not going to get any good out of progamer level analysis." Seriously. You should stop. Keep movin' forward with this discussion by dropping the highest-level discussion and simply continue on with the discussion of the game fundamentals.
Your (the pro-imbalance side of this discussion) arguments have really fallen flat, time and time again. Auntie Helvetica is bringing up Boxer? What the fuck dude, what does Boxer have to do with Protoss and Zerg imbalance? Nothing, that's what. There comes a time when people should just stop, say uncle and move forward.
In closing, as I don't think I'll be in this thread anymore, let's mention the distribution in Europe (Ger Ita Bel Fra etc.). Look at the best players in these countries. Look here, anyone who's head isn't "full of air" should be able to see there's always been equally strong Protoss and Zergs.
Oh, the doctorhel is certainly trolling, but I sincerely wanna know what parts of the zerg army counters protoss so I can start using it properly and stop losing lol. :D
Only professional gamers may discuss balance and actually be honest about it because the rest don't know. If you pulling off a superior strategy with perfect timing and the strategy is flawless and yet you still have to fight an incredible uphill battle against a flawed player, (see Zerg vs Terran on Reverse Lost Temple.. or zerg vs terran in general...) then there is imbalance.
Otherwise, do not talk about balance until you can reach olympic rank.
Sure you may want to discuss it too, you might sound smart or you might feel like you know, but you aren't really in the know, because you don't know these factors: 1. How much more can I do if I were doing everything correctly. 2. How much more could he do if he were doing everything correctly. 3. Are we even doing the optimal strategies & reacting appropriately... and a lot more options etc...
So really, balance discussions should be like a Q&A discussed with top korean players. They won't give full answers, they might just say, "it's very hard for zerg" but they have a reason for what they say.
On August 23 2008 04:36 Tadzio00 wrote: Well, the OP has issued some advantages of the protoss army he thinks are imbalanced. Assuming ZvP is balanced, what part of the zerg army balances those protoss advantages?
I heard Hydralisks are pretty good at killing Corsairs that fly right over them, and the Corsair-over-Hydralisk is a popular strategy at the D- level of Protoss, which is apparently what the op is talking about..
So while zerg is waiting for the protoss to fly his corsair over some hydralisks, how should he scout P's tech? Or is scouting less necessary because zerg can tech switch faster than P?
Well what I've done and heard done that helps is send a ling to try to get into his base. Even If you don't get a look at the tech structures you should see his army composition. Another thing to determine whether or not he'll go reaver after the sair is to keep an eye on the sair count. I think it's something like 2+ sairs he'll most likely go reaver.
Edit: Ohh and feel free to send a ling to each expo near him to see if he expands.
I think we should stop talking about BoxeR. He's a has-been, it's over for him. It's about time we whistled his swan song. Just another victim to the Protoss imbalance that faces Terran. If it were not for that race, perhaps we'd have more dominant Zergs besides July. Too long have we been tormented; a plague of down-syndrome newbies who pick the best looking race. With their stupid crystal Pylons, cab yellow Nexuses and Stargateways or whatever.
And when the day of Starcraft 2 comes, it doesn't look like there will be any change. Stalkers will blink when Zealots charge, and the Zerg army's mobility will be crushed even further. Now comes the time - it will be stagnant, and there will be naught but mirrors online, the Protoss wave crushing those who came new to the game. People will try the other races, sure, and they will fail. This horrid epoch draws near, if it hasn't arrived already.
The Protoss armies, with their new shiny contraptions, will clash. Terran drivers will hang up their license and resort to a life of drinking heavily. The Zerg's sharp claws, corrosive acid and chitinous plate will become old and unused, unable to cut through Protoss armor.
Said time is upon us already and we are powerless to stop it. The game will become boring. No more fresh faces or strategies on the board. It will be 1a2a3a forever. The horrendous villains of SC, the Zerg, and the survivors amongst all odds will find themselves at the wayside.
It will never be the same game. The Jaedong and Flash will be gone, replaced by the Stork and Jangbi. Had Blizzard only listened to the roar of the crowd! But it is too late, all other players said "Nope. No dice." and left the game forever, never to look back. A few lone players try playing the other races, all in a separate channel on B.Net quarantined for them. They're soon dealt with.
The game sells its copies, for sure, but all the players return to Starcraft 1, imba as it is. Tired of the mirror, Terran and Zerg will play SC1 freely, away from the tyranny of the Protoss who moved to SC2.
Wow, the OP gets mad when people say he should work on his multi-tasking because they don't know "his game." Hey, why don't you give us a replay so we can critique "your game" and then you can become better. Bitching and whining about how Protoss is so "overpowered" won't get you anywhere, especially with your idiotic argument above. Seriously, you haven't even played SC2, just stfu or post a replay in the strategy forum. Damn, it's not that fucking hard (and a lot fucking harder than playing reaver/sair, mind you).
Protoss are mechanically easier than the other races, so I suppose it's easier to get good with them. But are they better in any way other than this? Of course not. Its just harder to lift yourself out of D with Terran and Zerg, once you get to B it's just as hard for everyone.
If something could draw me back into this thread, it's a fucking retarded poster like Gaetele. Seriously. Anything this kid says it's retarded. He's already solved SC2 when he hasn't even played it... Why is it I get the feeling, over and over, like I am the only person trying to have a serious discussion; I'm sure I can say without a doubt these kids are just looking for an excuse to troll. Why is it you think you can say Boxer isn't dominant because Protoss is easy? Look at the winners of the leagues; because really this I am certain of - There have been fewer Protoss winners than any other race. Why don't you take a cab to the library and read some book on evidence, because you're just making up whatever seems it is convenient to support your argument. Look, having a Protoss major league winner is actually super rare, so why do you talk about it like it's commonplace?
But I want to turn my attention back to the original point.
I want to talk about it fundamentally. Is Protoss a simpler race than Zerg? I think mechanically (or I thought before this thread was started) are simpler than Zerg, but the lack of scouting makes up for it. Now, is the deficiencies in scouting enough to make up for the simplcity in mechanics? Also, we can't forget the difference in tactics, Zerg has more mobility and map control while the Protoss has to forfeit it and keep their army all together.
Yo can't really look at these races as the sum of parts. It's not like "well fuck dude, he has archons but holmes over there has ultras and ultras > archons so z > p." It doesn't work like that. True balance has to consider every aspect of the matchup.
Bel that as it may, we're not going to solve it here. These people would rather float in the god damned air all day than get a true discussion going.
Gaetele, it looks like no one agrees with you. No one else, including Zerg players, thinks ZvP is as hard as you do. I'm a D Protoss and can beat D- Protoss ZvP easy. Looks like you suck.
I think you guys have lost the point of this thread - the balance. The point of conversation has been pulled far too thin among all the flame wars, especially to me. I don't know what you posters are getting up to, but I will stand firm on my stance. Protoss imba, nerf plz.
To many others, it may seem like I'm trolling, but I assure you, I'm dead serious. This stupid race is the one thing that has gotten me truly angry about this game. I have played your pubs. I have played in house games as well, clan wars etc. I'm not horrible, but you guys think I am without warrant.
About 80% of you think I'm totally retarded, and all I have to say is **** you. Go run around with your seven million HP Zealots or whatever because you're all stupid Protoss scum. You're probably gaming or masturbating while posting because your race is just that damn easy. "Durf hurr, build the Pylon at 8, make Gateway, win hurf durr." Good job. You hit one of the 5 buttons on the keyboard that aren't 'a' and you must feel so accomplished about yourself.
I don't see how some of you people are so blind. Maybe you're just fine with not having any skill. You're yelled at by your parents and friends and you don't care because you like how easy you have it. Have to have it the easy way, don't you? I can hit 1a2a3a too but I decide not to because I want a challenge.
The upbringing you must have had is great too. Probably rich and spoiled just like the Protoss are. Cabbie to drive you home and back from school or whatever, nose turned up in the air. People scream "Yo! You dropped your watch!" but it's ok, you can just buy a new one.
Home's probably a great place too. You don't have any chores or anything - your maid's got that. If the smell in your house isn't perfect then you can just find a new one, right?
You Protoss players and blind non-Protoss players are retarded and disgust me. When SC2 comes later and you all lose like I do, you'll come whining to me and I'll just flip you off.
LOL, what the fuck are you talking about? None of your thoughts bears any sort of logical string in it. You just seem to vent from one point to the other, spewing out insults while telling others to behave and discuss properly. I don't know why people are so bent on convincing you that P is not imba, because it is absolutely obvious that YOU are the issue, not the game. Thus, it's YOUR problem, not ours. We might try to help you if you asked kindly, but as it is now, you can't expect anything else but scorn and laughter..
On August 23 2008 05:11 Ancestral wrote:No one else, including Zerg players, thinks ZvP is as hard as you do.
I know this isn't about me, but I'm 9-27 in ZvP on ICCUP this season (with more than 1 loss to D- protoss with sub-80 apm) and I'm approaching D+ despite such horrible ZvP performance, so I'm at least one zerg thinks the MU is pretty much impossible. 'Course, I suck. So that explains that.
I think this is it. Now it's full out trolling. When this discussion originally began, to me at least, it sorta looked like a potential to finally get the PvZ stigmas out in the open. Here we're now standing together, at the apex of this glorious thread. And some of you are left wondering "How could Teamliquid close my thread but this garbage is still open?." Well, the truth is Protoss is an easy race. For example, Kingdom, is a garbage Protoss who got to the top with simple things a monkey could do.
I have let fly with the painful arrows of truth. If you can hit 1a2a3a4a5a6a you can play Protoss, but that was inevitably going to come out. But it feels good, to be done with this thread, and we reach the end; finally, you will be turned onto what thine eyes hath missed. Open this thread in Mozilla Firefox, and there before you, at the first of every new line, shall appear a glorious mesasge.
D-C Zergs on iccup are really butt crazy awful. I went 7-1 TvZ, and 6-1 ZvZ. I don't know what it is. I'm about even stats ZvP and ZvT, it's like nobody else at that level knows how to play Zerg.
What it comes down to, if you feel like you're getting overwhelmed as a Zerg, your macro isn't up to par. Lots of Zergs get too comfortable knowing they can hatch 3 larvae at a time with no repercussions, but the fact is there are repercussions, because the longer you take to make those drones, the longer they aren't mining. Zergs also don't have the benefit of pretending the can just follow a staple army they see in progames... You have to constantly be building the right units for the right counters, and be flanking properly or else your numbers advantage becomes meaningless.
EDIT: Oh, I guess this thread was declared dead while I was making my post..
On August 23 2008 05:17 Gaetele wrote: I think you guys have lost the point of this thread - the balance. The point of conversation has been pulled far too thin among all the flame wars, especially to me. I don't know what you posters are getting up to, but I will stand firm on my stance. Protoss imba, nerf plz.
To many others, it may seem like I'm trolling, but I assure you, I'm dead serious. This stupid race is the one thing that has gotten me truly angry about this game. I have played your pubs. I have played in house games as well, clan wars etc. I'm not horrible, but you guys think I am without warrant.
About 80% of you think I'm totally retarded, and all I have to say is **** you. Go run around with your seven million HP Zealots or whatever because you're all stupid Protoss scum. You're probably gaming or masturbating while posting because your race is just that damn easy. "Durf hurr, build the Pylon at 8, make Gateway, win hurf durr." Good job. You hit one of the 5 buttons on the keyboard that aren't 'a' and you must feel so accomplished about yourself.
I don't see how some of you people are so blind. Maybe you're just fine with not having any skill. You're yelled at by your parents and friends and you don't care because you like how easy you have it. Have to have it the easy way, don't you? I can hit 1a2a3a too but I decide not to because I want a challenge.
The upbringing you must have had is great too. Probably rich and spoiled just like the Protoss are. Cabbie to drive you home and back from school or whatever, nose turned up in the air. People scream "Yo! You dropped your watch!" but it's ok, you can just buy a new one.
Home's probably a great place too. You don't have any chores or anything - your maid's got that. If the smell in your house isn't perfect then you can just find a new one, right?
You Protoss players and blind non-Protoss players are retarded and disgust me. When SC2 comes later and you all lose like I do, you'll come whining to me and I'll just flip you off.
What does that post have to do anything about balance? You are without a doubt one of the biggest trolls I've ever seen. I probably shouldn't even post this reply, you'll just use it to troll me. However, I'm done with this thread after this post, even though I assume this thread is nearing its end.
Anyways, you deny us a replay at your play, but apparently you are good enough to not need help, since you a godly clanwar player. Realistically, you can still improve yourself. No need to change balance of the game when you can learn your shortcomings, and (more than likely) the improvements can help your game in the other two matchups! Wow, we are improving three-fold by improving our worst matchup. If you are truly serious about "balancing" PvZ, than try to actually see how you lose games. If it's truly that your 20000 scourge die to 8 corsairs, than spread your scourge out. You say that you don't want to just 1a2a3a, but it appears that's what you are doing to allow the Protoss to use their "uber-leet AoE attacks" to decimate your armies. You do realize that flanking is a key property for Zergs to use in PvZ?
Who knows, maybe you are trying to stop their tech the wrong way. Just post a replay in the strategy forum and maybe somebody will help you. Then you will be a better player instead of a bitchy player. Trust me, the first may be harder to achieve, but everyone despises bitchy players and you will actually have a personal sense of worth for achieving a winning record against Protoss players.
Of course, all of this is probably lost on you and your wants to start a flame war so you can troll. I hope that you are being genuine in your want to actually hold an edge on Protoss players; however, I believe you are flawed in your way of trying to accomplish this edge. You want units removed; the general consensus is that you should attempt to improve through strategy and asking for help.
Have you ever considered that maybe... JUST MAYBE, that your ZvP is very weak? Everyone has their weaknesses. We have tons and tons of people - D players, D off racers, C off racers - alike say that they don't lose ZvP to D- players, yet you insist that just because you lose to them its imbalance.
Hey I'm 70% at PvZ and 40% at PvT, PvT must be impossibly imbalance towards T's favour because my record says so
Hahaha @ OP Your funny But I have never understood this talk about toss beeing so easy, I mean I am a C zerg and my zvp style is like... spend 100 apm macroing, spend the rest (30) attack moving. Once you start attack moving ultraling armies = win. Ez? On a more serious note, I think most people have good and bad matchups, has nothing to do with imbalance. I am way better zvp than zvt, you are way better zvt than zvp, everybody is different ~~
On August 23 2008 05:42 KlaCkoN wrote: Hahaha @ OP Your funny But I have never understood this talk about toss beeing so easy, I mean I am a C zerg and my zvp style is like... spend 100 apm macroing, spend the rest (30) attack moving. Once you start attack moving ultraling armies = win. Ez? On a more serious note, I think most people have good and bad matchups, has nothing to do with imbalance. I am way better zvp than zvt, you are way better zvt than zvp, everybody is different ~~
On August 23 2008 05:10 Chill wrote: I want to talk about it fundamentally. Is Protoss a simpler race than Zerg? I think mechanically (or I thought before this thread was started) are simpler than Zerg, but the lack of scouting makes up for it. Now, is the deficiencies in scouting enough to make up for the simplcity in mechanics? Also, we can't forget the difference in tactics, Zerg has more mobility and map control while the Protoss has to forfeit it and keep their army all together.
Yo can't really look at these races as the sum of parts. It's not like "well fuck dude, he has archons but holmes over there has ultras and ultras > archons so z > p." It doesn't work like that. True balance has to consider every aspect of the matchup.
Bel that as it may, we're not going to solve it here. These people would rather float in the god damned air all day than get a true discussion going.
I don't think any race can be said to be mechanically simpler than another. They have their differences and are all pretty equally difficult. For instance, the amount of control you need to effectively use sair/reaver is ridiculously high and is by no means 1a2a3a. I mean sometimes even telling your reavers to just attack move on a sunken doesn't mean they won't walk in and get themselves killed. At the same time a zerg army can't 1a2a3a either, what with dodging storms, reavers, etc. In terms of the mechanics of micro, I think it just boils down to: zerg has to take care of his units otherwise they die to storms/scarabs and protoss has to take care of his units so they don't just get sniped without doing any damage. For the mechanics of macro, I think both races' methods of building units vary enough to warrant them incomparable.
And for zerg mobility and map control, I'm not sure you can always say that zerg has more. Protoss definitely have an advantage with air map control with enough corsairs. I don't know if you can say protoss has to keep their army together, since they can have their ground army and then a fleet of corsairs that go where they please.
When I left BW a year ago (by the time Bisu had won the Starleague), everything was in normal. Luna with LT were still the most played maps by huge margin and Protosses were ranting about the balance of the matchup, as they were for eight years before that. And look what is here now...
Its not Luna, LT or even Tau cross that is played. Now its Python, followed by Blue storm and the newer proleague maps that everyone deems the best. Whatever happened to the old classics, where balance of the universe (and Z a lil'> P imbalance) was in normal?
What I see now is FE, a build I have always ommited as boring and hard to learn on maps I mentioned, and ZERGS BITCHING ABOUT PROTOSSES and p players, the everbitching bastards of the past, have to defend the balance of Starcraft in forums like these.
I would never think that one year can change so much. Whats going to be next? unupgraded marines raping ultras when I come from next holiday?
Question... If protoss is so imbalanced acording to the OP why is it that there is a D- protoss player?
Moreover, the fact that an average protoss player can pick-up pro player strats easier is true. WHY? Becouse they don't require as much speed and timing. On the other hand zerg requires a lot of speed especially macro when it comes to countering bisu build, but I don't see the better players whine, they do pick up strats and they have enough skill to counter. My only conclusion is that only noobs who never see the problem in their gameplay find another race imbalanced, since I have never encountered a decent player whine about how imbalanced the other race is.
My question is, Gaetele.. what do u want from you opening this thread, to share your opinion?? When will you stop QQ? when will you learn blizzard wont get rid of 1 of the 3 races of a fabulous game? will you be happy when all games are z v t or z v z or t v t... is that what you want? i dont understand what your getting at... of course every races units have counters like Lings > Goons Hydras> over Lots and Goons imo. Lurkers> dominate Lots and so with 2 out of the 2 main units of a protoss army beat out what are we supposed to do without a little bit of harassment from sairs or some storm to lower zergs un-numberable amount of army?
On August 23 2008 05:10 Chill wrote: I want to talk about it fundamentally. Is Protoss a simpler race than Zerg? I think mechanically (or I thought before this thread was started) are simpler than Zerg, but the lack of scouting makes up for it. Now, is the deficiencies in scouting enough to make up for the simplcity in mechanics? Also, we can't forget the difference in tactics, Zerg has more mobility and map control while the Protoss has to forfeit it and keep their army all together.
Yo can't really look at these races as the sum of parts. It's not like "well fuck dude, he has archons but holmes over there has ultras and ultras > archons so z > p." It doesn't work like that. True balance has to consider every aspect of the matchup.
Bel that as it may, we're not going to solve it here. These people would rather float in the god damned air all day than get a true discussion going.
I don't think any race can be said to be mechanically simpler than another. They have their differences and are all pretty equally difficult. For instance, the amount of control you need to effectively use sair/reaver is ridiculously high and is by no means 1a2a3a. I mean sometimes even telling your reavers to just attack move on a sunken doesn't mean they won't walk in and get themselves killed. At the same time a zerg army can't 1a2a3a either, what with dodging storms, reavers, etc. In terms of the mechanics of micro, I think it just boils down to: zerg has to take care of his units otherwise they die to storms/scarabs and protoss has to take care of his units so they don't just get sniped without doing any damage. For the mechanics of macro, I think both races methods of buildings units vary enough to warrant them incomparable.
And for zerg mobility and map control, I'm not sure you can always say that zerg has more. Protoss definitely have an advantage with air map control with enough corsairs. I don't know if you can say protoss has to keep their army together, since they can have their ground army and then a fleet of corsairs that go where they please.
Chocolate. I spit out so much of my hot chocolate when I read this. Protoss armies just rain all over you. A-move, ez. I mean I understand your point.
Some protoss' don't just a-move, but we are talking low level games here. You can't stay b level off of A-move, but you can definitely dominate D ranks. The protoss strategy is pretty dry, 1a2a3a. you don't need gosu reaver sair control to beat a C- player at all. and some people just turtle until carriers, and win any matchup they're in. others might use the right build order for a match-up, but a D level toss doesn't need to. feel what I'm saying? The problem is people are comparing foreigners to pros. The skill gap is too huge to do this. It is like comparing combatex to NaDa... don't you see the pain in that statement?
On August 23 2008 05:54 azndsh wrote: and DoctorHelvetica, you're doing it wrong... you're not allowed to cheat with line breaks
Seriously. The hardest part is formatting it properly while making it read like a sentence. I had to add in so many "I think", "I really think" "I truly do think" depending on the situation. Hahah was good times.
On August 23 2008 05:54 azndsh wrote: and DoctorHelvetica, you're doing it wrong... you're not allowed to cheat with line breaks
Seriously. The hardest part is formatting it properly while making it read like a sentence. I had to add in so many "I think", "I really think" "I truly do think" depending on the situation. Hahah was good times.
On August 23 2008 02:28 Gaetele wrote: Now I'm tired of losing to stupid D- Protosses on iCCup. I'm a level C Zerg, dammit. This is getting friggin' ridiculous. People say that the races are balanced, but there's no way it is even looked at properly by Blizzard. Once Corsairs get into groups above 8 or so, even a hundred Scourge won't manage to take out one. That's just retarded. I mean, look at the story. Zerg are the race that just totally take out all groups in terms of numbers, but all of the Protoss units have retarded AoE splash that just tears through my units one by one. About 8000 Zerglings or Scourge have died in my game to Archons, Templars and Corsairs. How is this even remotely balanced!?
On August 23 2008 02:30 Chill wrote: My thoughts are pretty back and forth on this issue; I mean, although I usually have been joking all my life, Protoss is no easier than the other races. I really do believe that with the final changes Brood War got in 1.08, all races have the same potential and it comes down to player error. Remember how PvZ flipped its imbalance after FE and Bisu build became standard? I think many strategies have really turned the game around multiple times, as well as player execution. I think a really big upside to this thread is that it's going to make people finally put their blame of maps and imbalance down and focus on their own mistakes.
On August 23 2008 02:31 Phoned wrote: how are you C if you lose to D- protoss? Only play TvZ and ZvZ? I wouldn't say you are a full-fledged C if that's the case.
Now I don't think you're in a position to talk. What's your rank on iCCup? I'd venture to guess no higher than D level. How would I get to C without facing P? Like everyone on iCCup is P. You can't rise in the ranks without facing one. Don't jump to conclusions like that. It doesn't have to do with my own skill - it just happens to take no skill to properly play Protoss. I mean, not even an huge Ultraling army can take a similarly sized Protoss army head on. We also have to manage larva, and it takes Protoss a minute to completely remacro their army from their 50 Gateways (hi fOrU!)
On August 23 2008 02:31 raiame wrote: If he uses his tech you should use your tech. Use mobility to your advantage. Harass him.
Just nerf Protoss and all their overpowered tech because all their players have to do is sit at the keyboard and roll their face over the hotkeys to win. This just isn't right. I've even seen a game where a Protoss managed to outexpand a Zerg! There isn't even a logical explanation for that. What mobility?
On August 23 2008 02:59 Chill wrote: I'll answer that, even though I don't play Protoss. There are certain ZvP timings you have to get used to; tell yourself when you're going to be moving out or staying defensive. I think the problem might be that you haven't gotten used to playing defensively at certain points and aggressively at others. I do think how you do this basically shapes your success at ZvP. You can't mindlessly a-move units out (though I often advocate that) because you'll get cut up by storms and cannons. During TSL this is how I became a fairly decent ZvT player, and I think it's some advice that anyone can apply to the game. Yep the main thing to remember here is to play defensively with Lurkers, treat your Scourge like they're a Prince of Dubai, they are that important! Use the LurkerLing combination to defend; Scourge take care of his Observers. The key is not to leave any part of your army isolated... I honestly do think that when a Zerg army can flank it's the strongest army in the game, but I mean if you screw up and go noob town on it and things come in piecemeal (spelling?) then that's obviously not going to work. It's just called basic micro and tactics. -_- I think this should let you move to the late game, where Ultras can bel enough to finish him with simple UltraLing. But remember you really cannot be a simple, mindless air head with UltraLing in modern ZvP; use Defilers!
On August 23 2008 02:28 Gaetele wrote: Now I'm tired of losing to stupid D- Protosses on iCCup. I'm a level C Zerg, dammit. This is getting friggin' ridiculous. People say that the races are balanced, but there's no way it is even looked at properly by Blizzard. Once Corsairs get into groups above 8 or so, even a hundred Scourge won't manage to take out one. That's just retarded. I mean, look at the story. Zerg are the race that just totally take out all groups in terms of numbers, but all of the Protoss units have retarded AoE splash that just tears through my units one by one. About 8000 Zerglings or Scourge have died in my game to Archons, Templars and Corsairs. How is this even remotely balanced!?
On August 23 2008 02:30 Chill wrote: My thoughts are pretty back and forth on this issue; I mean, although I usually have been joking all my life, Protoss is no easier than the other races. I really do believe that with the final changes Brood War got in 1.08, all races have the same potential and it comes down to player error. Remember how PvZ flipped its imbalance after FE and Bisu build became standard? I think many strategies have really turned the game around multiple times, as well as player execution. I think a really big upside to this thread is that it's going to make people finally put their blame of maps and imbalance down and focus on their own mistakes.
On August 23 2008 02:31 Phoned wrote: how are you C if you lose to D- protoss? Only play TvZ and ZvZ? I wouldn't say you are a full-fledged C if that's the case.
Now I don't think you're in a position to talk. What's your rank on iCCup? I'd venture to guess no higher than D level. How would I get to C without facing P? Like everyone on iCCup is P. You can't rise in the ranks without facing one. Don't jump to conclusions like that. It doesn't have to do with my own skill - it just happens to take no skill to properly play Protoss. I mean, not even an huge Ultraling army can take a similarly sized Protoss army head on. We also have to manage larva, and it takes Protoss a minute to completely remacro their army from their 50 Gateways (hi fOrU!)
On August 23 2008 02:31 raiame wrote: If he uses his tech you should use your tech. Use mobility to your advantage. Harass him.
Just nerf Protoss and all their overpowered tech because all their players have to do is sit at the keyboard and roll their face over the hotkeys to win. This just isn't right. I've even seen a game where a Protoss managed to outexpand a Zerg! There isn't even a logical explanation for that. What mobility?
On August 23 2008 02:59 Chill wrote: I'll answer that, even though I don't play Protoss. There are certain ZvP timings you have to get used to; tell yourself when you're going to be moving out or staying defensive. I think the problem might be that you haven't gotten used to playing defensively at certain points and aggressively at others. I do think how you do this basically shapes your success at ZvP. You can't mindlessly a-move units out (though I often advocate that) because you'll get cut up by storms and cannons. During TSL this is how I became a fairly decent ZvT player, and I think it's some advice that anyone can apply to the game. Yep the main thing to remember here is to play defensively with Lurkers, treat your Scourge like they're a Prince of Dubai, they are that important! Use the LurkerLing combination to defend; Scourge take care of his Observers. The key is not to leave any part of your army isolated... I honestly do think that when a Zerg army can flank it's the strongest army in the game, but I mean if you screw up and go noob town on it and things come in piecemeal (spelling?) then that's obviously not going to work. It's just called basic micro and tactics. -_- I think this should let you move to the late game, where Ultras can bel enough to finish him with simple UltraLing. But remember you really cannot be a simple, mindless air head with UltraLing in modern ZvP; use Defilers!
LOL! I sat here reading everything thinking this is an amusing thread and it turned out to be more amusing. Great job guys haha. I was wondering why it wasn't closing XD
This thread became so ridiculous that I can barely take it. I'm no exceptional protoss player and from my experience, a-move doesn't even work on low skilled zergs (I tried it many times against my friend, who hasn't won single game on bnet until he trained for a month and bumped into me) - zealots fall because of lurkers, dragoons are always massacred by zerglings and even whole squad of corsairs requires sick micro to pull of and not waste resources while being screwed by bunch of hydralisks or spore colonies. Not mentioning microing at the same time with shuttles and reavers - that's just sick and I don't even know how zerg can lose to a-moving protoss players while choosing ultraling - it's just unbelievable. Yes I suck, yes I don't have as much experience as assuming 3/4 of you here but hell, I tried a-moving and it just doesn't work.
I'm so glad I joined this forums. Could this quite possibly be the most epic thread in all of the internet hahahaha? All of the people taking it seriously! Looooooooooool
On August 23 2008 06:32 Deimos0 wrote: This thread became so ridiculous that I can barely take it. I'm no exceptional protoss player and from my experience, a-move doesn't even work on low skilled zergs (I tried it many times against my friend, who hasn't won single game on bnet until he trained for a month and bumped into me) - zealots fall because of lurkers, dragoons are always massacred by zerglings and even whole squad of corsairs requires sick micro to pull of and not waste resources while being screwed by bunch of hydralisks or spore colonies. Not mentioning microing at the same time with shuttles and reavers - that's just sick and I don't even know how zerg can lose to a-moving protoss players while choosing ultraling - it's just unbelievable. Yes I suck, yes I don't have as much experience as assuming 3/4 of you here but hell, I tried a-moving and it just doesn't work.
lolololol.
All the >100 posters are still nerd raging over the "topic".
It started on IRC but we kept it secret after the initial "Should we do this?" and did private IRC messages.
You can also notice some other staff were in on it:
On August 23 2008 02:42 Hot_Bid wrote: lol it's always been ZvP imbalance except for Bisu and Free, i bet they chill with each other singing it's just the two of us, we can pvz if we try, just the two of us building corsairs in the sky
edit: will ignorant lower level SCplayers mock imbalance till hell?
answer: always
On August 23 2008 05:00 SonuvBob wrote: With all the fighting in this thread, it's like the wild wild west. Must be the summertime heat.
On August 23 2008 02:42 Hot_Bid wrote: lol it's always been ZvP imbalance except for Bisu and Free, i bet they chill with each other singing it's just the two of us, we can pvz if we try, just the two of us building corsairs in the sky
edit: will ignorant lower level SCplayers mock imbalance till hell?
This thread is pretty bad...... I mean come on guys. Stop complaining about your race....just learn the matchup. If you aren't winning then you are obviously doing something wrong. Starcraft, no matter what race your playing isn't just "so easy." Practice more or stop complaining. Actually, just don't complain lol.
Your reasoning to why protoss is imba is completely inaccurate. You're basically saying something like, even if i have 200 zerglings i can't get up a ramp verses 2 firebats with medics behind them OMG Terran is IMBA. OMGWTFBBQ 2 UNITS?!?!? SO EASY!
Stop making jokes or people are gonna figure this is ridiculous and are gonna stop posting seriously.
So.. yea, 1 reaver killed 7 of my lings once. I mean 1 vs 7 wtf.. This is serious stuff really imba... keep arguing guys, gogo this is very productive.
the hell are you talking about, its the other way around ;o pvz is sooo hard for toss its ridic -_- its balanced at higher levels of play when players can multitask well but on the lower lvls zerg has a big advantage when not dealing with guerilla play. and even on the pro level these days theyre saying its swining back in favor of zergs again.
On August 23 2008 07:21 Shauni wrote: ultras can bel enough? I didn't even realize something was strange till Helvetica started supertrolling the thread.
It was supposed to be a fake "be" typo. I don't know how to do bel. I did the shortform of Belgium once. Doctor did deci- bel even though that isn't a word. It's a tough one to do.
Bel Air is said three times in the song and I got that line all three times. Gah.
On August 23 2008 07:21 Shauni wrote: ultras can bel enough? I didn't even realize something was strange till Helvetica started supertrolling the thread.
It was supposed to be a fake "be" typo. I don't know how to do bel. I did the shortform of Belgium once. Doctor did deci- bel even though that isn't a word. It's a tough one to do.
Bel Air is said three times in the song and I got that line all three times. Gah.
Perhaps bell would have been a good typo for bel? Like, "If corsairs are killing your overlords then a bel should be ringing in your head telling you to get spores."
Edit: what the heck with all my posts being on the next page.
Threads like this are always an shocking reminder of how few people read the whole thread. Watch, my bet is that even after this post, there will be 8 more posts about imbalance. Anyone else want to make a prediction?
PS: This thread is NOT better than the facebook thread.
Thats very annoying scoop, isn't it. Threads with outrageous title are not even worth contributing, nobody seems to read your posts unless you quote someone who already contributed and/or insult them
SC is balanced, but ONLY on higher levels. I'd even say it must be as high as pro level to be called balanced. This is because there are almost no really successful foreigner Terrans; the best have always been Zerg and (especially since recent times) Protoss. Seeing that T is the hardest race when it comes to multitasking, it's not surprising why. As for the PvZ matchup, P has much less units to deal with, and his units build slower. On lower levels, the longer the game takes, the more it is in favor of P (assuming that no one has achieved a major advantage yet). Simply because he has an easier time multitasking. The Z must be faster. On higher levels, this still matters but not that much anymore. P has to take greater care of perfect timings and unit composition or else he'll run into trouble. Didn't read the whole thread btw, just my 2 cents on the topic. SC is not generally always balanced, it depends on the skill level; the higher it is the more balanced it becomes.
DOCTOR AND GATAELE GTFO YOU OBVIOUSLY SUCK ASS AT THE GAME!!!!!!! THIS GAME IS WELL BALANCED AND MAYBE I SHOULD SCREAM ABOUT HOW I CANT BEAT CARRIERS WITH TANKS AND VULTURES THIS THREAD IS A JOKE AND YOU GUYS ARE FUCKING JOKES PLEASE LEAVE TEAMLIQUID AND WORK ON YOUR ZVP
On August 23 2008 07:21 Shauni wrote: ultras can bel enough? I didn't even realize something was strange till Helvetica started supertrolling the thread.
It was supposed to be a fake "be" typo. I don't know how to do bel. I did the shortform of Belgium once. Doctor did deci- bel even though that isn't a word. It's a tough one to do.
Bel Air is said three times in the song and I got that line all three times. Gah.
On August 23 2008 08:34 freedom yay wrote: DOCTOR AND GATAELE GTFO YOU OBVIOUSLY SUCK ASS AT THE GAME!!!!!!! THIS GAME IS WELL BALANCED AND MAYBE I SHOULD SCREAM ABOUT HOW I CANT BEAT CARRIERS WITH TANKS AND VULTURES THIS THREAD IS A JOKE AND YOU GUYS ARE FUCKING JOKES PLEASE LEAVE TEAMLIQUID AND WORK ON YOUR ZVP
On August 23 2008 08:53 coulthard[pR] wrote: some newb did a loss streak and got mad,now we have 11 pages of other angry noobs about a perfectly balanced game,and all this in less than 2 days :/
On August 22 2008 20:09 minus_human wrote: Don't hate the Carriers. Carriers are very cool conceptual units, with very good graphic for SC standards and wicked voice, interesting and powerful mechanics, for a fair price. Similar to the Battlecruisers, maybe even more effective. So, don't hate the Carrier.
Instead, hate that fucking little cunt of a Protoss player who, given his insecurities and lack of any real type of talent in real life chooses the easiest race (at lower levels it IS THE EASIEST) and does the most gay and cheap tactic available, CARRIERS, displaying his fear to face the opponent in a standard game because he can't handle defeat or the fact that he may be inferior. This is the jerk who is not willing nor capable of learning and improving too much. Therefor he goes proxi tech DTs every game because of his own mental flaws, followed by Carriers, cuz ITS SO FUCKING EASY.
This thread is fucking terrible. I honestly can't believe you fools thought that a stupid idiotic dumbass thread like this was a good idea. What it really makes me want to do is beatdown you down or throw rocks! at your head
Well, I guess I far underestimated the idiocy. Thus far my count is 6, and I bet on only 8 more... come on kids, if you read even 10 posts pasts the 6th page you'll figure it out.
Guys that you pull off the street could probably sit down to a computer and play Protoss in SC. Boxer, who is great at Terran, started Protoss because it was the easiest. This won't reach a conclusion if it were up to Blizzard's developers. I'm not hired as a game designer, but I think that if it were completely up to me, I would just remove High Templars and Corsairs from the game.
Sorry i havent read the whole thread but this is an incredibly stupid thing to say. Have you been around - say - 2 years before? PvZ back then was considered imbalanced in favor of Z. There were countless threads here at tl.net, Protoss players complaining that no Protoss will ever have the chance to win a big tournament in Korea because of this imbalance. Several suggestions were made - increasing dark archons energy, increasing (!) the power of psi storm so that a storm is just enough to kill lurkers. And now you want to remove High Templars and Corsairs from the game, sorry this is just so stupid, rofl ^^. Have you ever played Protoss by yourself? Without PSI, P is basically dead.
On August 23 2008 09:42 GeneralStan wrote: This thread is fucking terrible. I honestly can't believe you fools thought that a stupid idiotic dumbass thread like this was a good idea. What it really makes me want to do is beatdown you down or throw rocks! at your head
I was reading through this going wtf why wasn't this shit closed. Glad I read it all the way or I'd have embarassed myself when I posted a rebuttal saying Protoss actually does take some skill.
On August 23 2008 09:42 GeneralStan wrote: This thread is fucking terrible. I honestly can't believe you fools thought that a stupid idiotic dumbass thread like this was a good idea. What it really makes me want to do is beatdown you down or throw rocks! at your head
On August 23 2008 10:35 Kwark wrote: I was reading through this going wtf why wasn't this shit closed. Glad I read it all the way or I'd have embarassed myself when I posted a rebuttal saying Protoss actually does take some skill.
On August 23 2008 02:31 Phoned wrote: how are you C if you lose to D- protoss? Only play TvZ and ZvZ? I wouldn't say you are a full-fledged C if that's the case.
Now I don't think you're in a position to talk. What's your rank on iCCup? I'd venture to guess no higher than D level. How would I get to C without facing P? Like everyone on iCCup is P. You can't rise in the ranks without facing one. Don't jump to conclusions like that. It doesn't have to do with my own skill - it just happens to take no skill to properly play Protoss. I mean, not even an huge Ultraling army can take a similarly sized Protoss army head on. We also have to manage larva, and it takes Protoss a minute to completely remacro their army from their 50 Gateways (hi fOrU!)
On August 23 2008 02:31 raiame wrote: If he uses his tech you should use your tech. Use mobility to your advantage. Harass him.
Just nerf Protoss and all their overpowered tech because all their players have to do is sit at the keyboard and roll their face over the hotkeys to win. This just isn't right. I've even seen a game where a Protoss managed to outexpand a Zerg! There isn't even a logical explanation for that. What mobility?
if you think playing protoss is so easy i invite you to pvt or pvz me. im a protoss player myself and i bet you my z or my t will easily rape your protoss
On August 23 2008 09:42 GeneralStan wrote: This thread is fucking terrible. I honestly can't believe you fools thought that a stupid idiotic dumbass thread like this was a good idea. What it really makes me want to do is beatdown you down or throw rocks! at your head
This thread is the best thing I've read on a forum in a long, long time.
On August 23 2008 04:54 Gaetele wrote: I think we should stop talking about BoxeR. He's a has-been, it's over for him. It's about time we whistled his swan song. Just another victim to the Protoss imbalance that faces Terran. If it were not for that race, perhaps we'd have more dominant Zergs besides July. Too long have we been tormented; a plague of down-syndrome newbies who pick the best looking race. With their stupid crystal Pylons, cab yellow Nexuses and Stargateways or whatever.
And when the day of Starcraft 2 comes, it doesn't look like there will be any change. Stalkers will blink when Zealots charge, and the Zerg army's mobility will be crushed even further. Now comes the time - it will be stagnant, and there will be naught but mirrors online, the Protoss wave crushing those who came new to the game. People will try the other races, sure, and they will fail. This horrid epoch draws near, if it hasn't arrived already.
The Protoss armies, with their new shiny contraptions, will clash. Terran drivers will hang up their license and resort to a life of drinking heavily. The Zerg's sharp claws, corrosive acid and chitinous plate will become old and unused, unable to cut through Protoss armor.
Said time is upon us already and we are powerless to stop it. The game will become boring. No more fresh faces or strategies on the board. It will be 1a2a3a forever. The horrendous villains of SC, the Zerg, and the survivors amongst all odds will find themselves at the wayside.
It will never be the same game. The Jaedong and Flash will be gone, replaced by the Stork and Jangbi. Had Blizzard only listened to the roar of the crowd! But it is too late, all other players said "Nope. No dice." and left the game forever, never to look back. A few lone players try playing the other races, all in a separate channel on B.Net quarantined for them. They're soon dealt with.
The game sells its copies, for sure, but all the players return to Starcraft 1, imba as it is. Tired of the mirror, Terran and Zerg will play SC1 freely, away from the tyranny of the Protoss who moved to SC2.
When you read this fucking post and don't realized that it was a joke, go kill yourself. ROFL
On second thought, I kinda hate this thread. I won't ever browse forums the same way I used to. Every single post on this thread, I read downward instead of left to right
On August 23 2008 09:42 GeneralStan wrote: This thread is fucking terrible. I honestly can't believe you fools thought that a stupid idiotic dumbass thread like this was a good idea. What it really makes me want to do is beatdown you down or throw rocks! at your head
This thread is the best thing I've read on a forum in a long, long time.
I agree with you, especially in the matchup where you are playing against P using Z. Maelstorm, Psi Storm, corsairs, DTs...just so many units that can exploit the weakness of zerg. But the thing is, altho shitloads of corsairs = gg for zerg, the point of the whole matchup is to prevent your opponent from getting there.
I read page 1 and page 12 and was like "Wtf? How could Chill leave something like this open? There has to be more to it" and just read through it all. Lulz were had.
On August 23 2008 13:42 letsbefree wrote: I agree with you, especially in the matchup where you are playing against P using Z. Maelstorm, Psi Storm, corsairs, DTs...just so many units that can exploit the weakness of zerg. But the thing is, altho shitloads of corsairs = gg for zerg, the point of the whole matchup is to prevent your opponent from getting there.
lol are they doing a remake of that show? why are you guys bringing this up now that show was ancient hahaha but it was pretty funny shit, didn't know it was still so popular. this has got to be one of the more elaborate pranks i've seen. was funny especially since the word Bel was used over and over.
On August 23 2008 13:50 Delirium wrote: This thread is pretty lulzy.
At the OP: Lol Now that that is out of the way. Chill seems to be one of the few people in this thread with a brain.
Starcraft is balanced. kthx. Blame the map or your own weaknesses if it gets exploited.
At those saying TvP is hard, well I agree. But in sheer fire power Terran will always beat Protoss. I also don't see how Terran macro is any easier than Protoss. You expand, you go to your cluster of units and click away.
People blame protoss for being cheesey etc. We have to be. Because straight up is too hard because our 20 damage goons don't hold well against the 70 splash damage of tanks. We HAVE to get an advantage somehow. Storm drops, arbiters, dt's. These are all things we have to exploit if we have a chance to win.
On August 23 2008 13:50 Delirium wrote: This thread is pretty lulzy.
At the OP: Lol Now that that is out of the way. Chill seems to be one of the few people in this thread with a brain.
Starcraft is balanced. kthx. Blame the map or your own weaknesses if it gets exploited.
At those saying TvP is hard, well I agree. But in sheer fire power Terran will always beat Protoss. I also don't see how Terran macro is any easier than Protoss. You expand, you go to your cluster of units and click away.
People blame protoss for being cheesey etc. We have to be. Because straight up is too hard because our 20 damage goons don't hold well against the 70 splash damage of tanks. We HAVE to get an advantage somehow. Storm drops, arbiters, dt's. These are all things we have to exploit if we have a chance to win.
EDIT: lets pick apart this OP
Now I'm tired of losing to stupid D- Protosses on iCCup. I'm a level C Zerg, dammit.
Uhhh... self explanatory.
This is getting friggin' ridiculous. People say that the races are balanced, but there's no way it
Rofl
is even looked at properly by Blizzard. Once Corsairs get into groups above 8 or so, even a hundred Scourge won't manage to take out one. That's just retarded.
Maybe you shouldn't use scourge?
I mean, look at the story. Zerg are the race that just totally take out all groups in terms of numbers, but all of the Protoss units have retarded AoE splash that just tears through my units one by one. Storms, learn to dodge them. We can't win via pure storms. Sure they're great and the only way we can survive mid-game, but they're not total game winners.
Reavers, <3. I love reavers, but we have to back them up. Remember they're 200/100 which is quite expensive considering you have to also get a shuttle, and speed, to get them effective as an offensive unit.
Archons, once we get to 3 attack either just stop ling production or get surrounds. They attack pretty slowly. 8 cracklings could probably take out an archon with a good surround.
About 8000 Zerglings or Scourge have died in my game to Archons, Templars and Corsairs.
Why are you using 8000 Zerglings to Archons and Templar? Maybe you should learn to not piss-line them in, or here's just a suggestion: don't use zerglings or scourge. (OMG I'm A GENIOUS)
How is this even remotely balanced!?
Again: rofl. Complain about maps and your own weaknesses (and on the same token opponents strengths.) I lose to people much worse than me all the time. If they're a terran that can abuse drops, I have the hardest time dealing with that, other protosses don't.
On August 23 2008 13:42 letsbefree wrote: I agree with you, especially in the matchup where you are playing against P using Z. Maelstorm, Psi Storm, corsairs, DTs...just so many units that can exploit the weakness of zerg. But the thing is, altho shitloads of corsairs = gg for zerg, the point of the whole matchup is to prevent your opponent from getting there.
FAIL.
Yea i looked back at my post and its pretty retarded lol. Well what i'm trying to say is that it all depends on the skill of the player. Different races require different momentum, timing, build order, etc..but when it comes to certain points of the game, especially late game, unit imba can be seen. For example, fucking late game TvZ ultras are fucking imba, fucking fatasses raping all the shitz outta everything they see, or even fucking vessels irritating everything in sight. Of course some units are imba, but the point is to be good enough to stop your opponent from getting to that level where they abuse certain characteristics of different units. Like using scourages to constantly maintain a low population of vessels, or to use drops to mnimize the number of zerg expansions.
That's the point i was trying to make. I'm not saying that the game is imbalanced, cuz imo its one of the best games ever made, but it takes good players to play a completely balanced game, and it takes more skill to exploit your opponent's weaknesses by abusing certain units.
This argument could go on for quite some time, I hope you all realize. There are a lot of people in this thread who feel that the limitations of the player far outweigh the limitations of the map, and while this is certainly true at lower levels, when you reach the upper echelon of competitive, you'll run into many epic clashes between the Protoss and Zerg where it really is balanced. Regardless of who gets the win, it's always a close fight.
On August 23 2008 14:41 EvilTeletubby wrote: This argument could go on for quite some time, I hope you all realize. There are a lot of people in this thread who feel that the limitations of the player far outweigh the limitations of the map, and while this is certainly true at lower levels, when you reach the upper echelon of competitive, you'll run into many epic clashes between the Protoss and Zerg where it really is balanced. Regardless of who gets the win, it's always a close fight.
i only read the first page.. and just wanted to comment on that;
i quit playing/watching SC a longgggggggg time ago and i always either won really quickly or lost horribly in PvZ because i just sucked PvZ, so imba back then to me;
and now everyone is saying that some "FE" and Bisu build is making ZvP imba? wow.. some things really change
i guess i gotta watch this to see what you guys are talking about
On August 23 2008 14:47 jjun212 wrote: i only read the first page.. and just wanted to comment on that;
i quit playing/watching SC a longgggggggg time ago and i always either won really quickly or lost horribly in PvZ because i just sucked PvZ, so imba back then to me;
and now everyone is saying that some "FE" and Bisu build is making ZvP imba? wow.. some things really change
i guess i gotta watch this to see what you guys are talking about
On August 23 2008 14:47 jjun212 wrote: i only read the first page.. and just wanted to comment on that;
i quit playing/watching SC a longgggggggg time ago and i always either won really quickly or lost horribly in PvZ because i just sucked PvZ, so imba back then to me;
and now everyone is saying that some "FE" and Bisu build is making ZvP imba? wow.. some things really change
i guess i gotta watch this to see what you guys are talking about
On August 23 2008 15:25 KingFool wrote: IntoTheWow jumping in made my cheer out loud. Did he know before or did he actually sherlock holmes this thread?
On August 23 2008 14:47 jjun212 wrote: i only read the first page.. and just wanted to comment on that;
i quit playing/watching SC a longgggggggg time ago and i always either won really quickly or lost horribly in PvZ because i just sucked PvZ, so imba back then to me;
and now everyone is saying that some "FE" and Bisu build is making ZvP imba? wow.. some things really change
i guess i gotta watch this to see what you guys are talking about
lol QFT. When I left long ago, I was one of those Protoss players bitching about the imbalance of PvZ.
All of a sudden with the new maps and FE strats, things seems to have reversed. Weird how things work out.
Some pages back, people were commenting on the mechanics of the race, i.e. which is easier.
I'd have to say protoss is the easiest race to play, to micomanage, to micro/macro. It's the reason why I chose protoss and why so many of my friends chose toss.
With a comparatively low unit count and higher HP and straightforward unit actions, I didn't know this was even up for dispute. Seems like common sense.
Haha, notice how ITW took two pages before he posted? Me and Gaetele were giving him so much shit "HURRY UP" and he was choking under the pressure
DoctorHelvetica also posted a line, but unfortunately didn't tell any of us so we had to delete it. It was also terrible and just used line breaks to make everything line up.
More stuff: Someone from Ireland solved what we were doing on page 3 but I had to delete it. (sorry I forget your ID!) XCetron also solved it but I edited his post to cover it up. I forget what page that was on.
If your doing that it's obvious why you would lose to a D- protoss....you cant take air superiority with 100 scourges, if you are really intent on taking down that group of corsairs clone your scourges and send them in while the sairs are attacking a couple mutas, or even when they are hitting your ovies if you think you can handle it. And if you were saying that 'just as an example' its a pretty stupid example then.
On August 23 2008 04:16 SuperJongMan wrote: Man, fuck Ultralisks.
And GOGO ANYTIME.
And no, stupid guy above me, YOO STOOPID. July demonstrated how to use just scourge. Zergs recently have been making a lot more scourge if you noticed.
Savior even opened with like spire => 6 scourge recently, etc.
Scourge hydra ling lurker is fuckn IMBAAAAAAaaaaaaaa
Dude, did you read my fucking post properly? I never said just scourge doesn't work, I said getting 100 scourges isn't the way to take air superiority, I never said just scourge isn't viable. If you can show me a JulyZerg game where he gets ONE HUNDRED motherfucking scourges to kill 8 corsairs, I will bow down to you and tell you that you are right. I said clone your scourges, preferably when the sairs are busy attacking something, if you handle it. He's not fucking JulyZerg, so I'm not expecting him to pull some gosu scourge shit out his ass like JulyZerg. I was simply referring to his crappy example. edit: side note on the lulz, i haded to defend myself the lulz were had though, although I needed the spoiler O_o
On August 23 2008 15:36 Chill wrote: Haha, notice how ITW took two pages before he posted? Me and Gaetele were giving him so much shit "HURRY UP" and he was choking under the pressure
DoctorHelvetica also posted a line, but unfortunately didn't tell any of us so we had to delete it. It was also terrible and just used line breaks to make everything line up.
Gaetele quit being such a whiner. post your iccup id so everyone can see which D- protoss destroyed you. Im a D+ terran, and honestly, i can beat D- protoss using zerg as my offrace. you are probably D+ / C- level, son. give it a few weeks, those imba D- protoss will drop your rank so fast.
On August 23 2008 15:41 Skittled wrote: Gaetele quit being such a whiner. post your iccup id so everyone can see which D- protoss destroyed you. Im a D+ terran, and honestly, i can beat D- protoss using zerg as my offrace. you are probably D+ / C- level, son. give it a few weeks, those imba D- protoss will drop your rank so fast.
I'm really laughing out loud, really.
On August 23 2008 15:36 Chill wrote: More stuff: Someone from Ireland solved what we were doing on page 3 but I had to delete it. (sorry I forget your ID!) XCetron also solved it but I edited his post to cover it up. I forget what page that was on.
On August 23 2008 15:41 Skittled wrote: Gaetele quit being such a whiner. post your iccup id so everyone can see which D- protoss destroyed you. Im a D+ terran, and honestly, i can beat D- protoss using zerg as my offrace. you are probably D+ / C- level, son. give it a few weeks, those imba D- protoss will drop your rank so fast.
This thread nearly made me cry, it was so beautiful. I knew something was amuck when not only was the thread not closed, but Chill responded without being rude and mean, entirely uncharacteristic.
Guys, you are crazy... yes, protoss is a little bit imba at all gaming levels, that is not discutable (Shinhan Proleague statistics say everything, then PvP final on WCG, etc.)... but talking about P>>>Z? are you idiot? zerg can only mass hydralisks and protoss has a problem especially on D/C ranks...
On August 23 2008 18:51 D9 wrote: Guys, you are crazy... yes, protoss is a little bit imba at all gaming levels, that is not discutable (Shinhan Proleague statistics say everything, then PvP final on WCG, etc.)... but talking about P>>>Z? are you idiot? zerg can only mass hydralisks and protoss has a problem especially on D/C ranks...
On August 23 2008 15:36 Chill wrote: Haha, notice how ITW took two pages before he posted? Me and Gaetele were giving him so much shit "HURRY UP" and he was choking under the pressure
DoctorHelvetica also posted a line, but unfortunately didn't tell any of us so we had to delete it. It was also terrible and just used line breaks to make everything line up.
On August 23 2008 15:36 Chill wrote: Haha, notice how ITW took two pages before he posted? Me and Gaetele were giving him so much shit "HURRY UP" and he was choking under the pressure
DoctorHelvetica also posted a line, but unfortunately didn't tell any of us so we had to delete it. It was also terrible and just used line breaks to make everything line up.
More stuff: Someone from Ireland solved what we were doing on page 3 but I had to delete it. (sorry I forget your ID!) XCetron also solved it but I edited his post to cover it up. I forget what page that was on.
Yo!
I read some other threads after that post and then I went "OH @!^% knowing TL this will be an epic thread I better edit it to make it more subtle" and then I realized you deleted it. I would have probably made it too obvious anyway.
On August 23 2008 05:17 Gaetele wrote: I think you guys have lost the point of this thread - the balance. The point of conversation has been pulled far too thin among all the flame wars, especially to me. I don't know what you posters are getting up to, but I will stand firm on my stance. Protoss imba, nerf plz.
To many others, it may seem like I'm trolling, but I assure you, I'm dead serious. This stupid race is the one thing that has gotten me truly angry about this game. I have played your pubs. I have played in house games as well, clan wars etc. I'm not horrible, but you guys think I am without warrant.
About 80% of you think I'm totally retarded, and all I have to say is **** you. Go run around with your seven million HP Zealots or whatever because you're all stupid Protoss scum. You're probably gaming or masturbating while posting because your race is just that damn easy. "Durf hurr, build the Pylon at 8, make Gateway, win hurf durr." Good job. You hit one of the 5 buttons on the keyboard that aren't 'a' and you must feel so accomplished about yourself.
I don't see how some of you people are so blind. Maybe you're just fine with not having any skill. You're yelled at by your parents and friends and you don't care because you like how easy you have it. Have to have it the easy way, don't you? I can hit 1a2a3a too but I decide not to because I want a challenge.
The upbringing you must have had is great too. Probably rich and spoiled just like the Protoss are. Cabbie to drive you home and back from school or whatever, nose turned up in the air. People scream "Yo! You dropped your watch!" but it's ok, you can just buy a new one.
Home's probably a great place too. You don't have any chores or anything - your maid's got that. If the smell in your house isn't perfect then you can just find a new one, right?
You Protoss players and blind non-Protoss players are retarded and disgust me. When SC2 comes later and you all lose like I do, you'll come whining to me and I'll just flip you off.
people have been banned for less than this stupidity.
you cry that these low apm protosses own your ass. i point you to kwark, legionaiire and others with lower apm (prolly cuz they dont spam like you all game on useless clicks).
you cry about how their corsairs own your scourge, archons own your zerglings. seriously, who would have thunk that clumped corsairs really are good against low hp scourges???? i never would have imagined. or mass archons owning 35 hp lings?????
comon, get real and post your iccup id and a replay so you can actually prove to us how you played at a C level losing to a D- protoss. instead of spouting bullshit for 14 pages on this thread, back up your words with some actions.
hell im a protoss player but i would more than willing play z v p against u (me zerg) just to prove a point that it is about the skill level of the player rather than crying imba
but like others said, this topic must be a joke and the goal of it is to troll and increase your post counts through flame wars.
On August 23 2008 02:28 Gaetele wrote: Now I'm tired of losing to stupid D- Protosses on iCCup. I'm a level C Zerg, dammit.
I don't play zerg, but maybe your ZvT or ZvT is C, but your ZvP could be F?
You can post a replay of yourself in the strategy forums and ask for help.
EDIT: LOL. This thread didn't feel like a real thread anyways. I was suprise earlier that it wasn't closed by Chill. Btw, no one is gonna get the Fresh Prince of Bel Air reference if it wasn't highlighted in bold.
whats the point of posting in a thread without reading it? you cant only refer to the op all the time._.
things like this happen all the time especially in the strategy forum where people only read OPs post and than start their posts with like "i'm just a D noob but..."
I find it funny how my zerg friend can kill C+ toss without even practicing for 2 years he just goes allin with 4-5 hatch lings or mass hydra and the funny thing is it works over 75% of the time.
On August 23 2008 02:39 Gaetele wrote:. I mean, not even an huge Ultraling army can take a similarly sized Protoss army head on. We also have to manage larva, and it takes Protoss a minute to completely remacro their army from their 50 Gateways
I've even seen a game where a Protoss managed to outexpand a Zerg! There isn't even a logical explanation for that. What mobility?
I came to the conclusion that you just suck, you are just complaining becouse you do things wrong, or don't know anything.
its stupid continue arguing about race imbalance... all races are difficult to master it, the problem its not in the races are in the hands and brains of the players. I hate this kind of post, really lower the level of the forum.
On August 24 2008 00:50 No_eL wrote: its stupid continue arguing about race imbalance... all races are difficult to master it, the problem its not in the races are in the hands and brains of the players. I hate this kind of post, really lower the level of the forum.
and also, did you really not consider using something like hydralisks against his archons instead of 8000 lings? terran is imba too, im sure 50 firebats and medics could take a shit load of lings. korean defense anyone?
On August 24 2008 01:36 Skittled wrote: and also, did you really not consider using something like hydralisks against his archons instead of 8000 lings? terran is imba too, im sure 50 firebats and medics could take a shit load of lings. korean defense anyone?
On August 24 2008 01:36 Skittled wrote: and also, did you really not consider using something like hydralisks against his archons instead of 8000 lings? terran is imba too, im sure 50 firebats and medics could take a shit load of lings. korean defense anyone?
On August 23 2008 03:07 SiegeTanksandBlueGoo wrote: yeah, seriously, if you're losing to D- level protosses, then you are not a C level zerg. Period. I'm a C- level protoss and PvZ guessing his tech is hard as shit expecially when he copies the koreans and gest both spire and hydra den. Double Den Hydra break or Mutalisks. For protoss, if you guess wrong (or if you're a good player, you didn't scout it out completely) you are completely fucked. Gamer-ender style. If you're zerg, you know wha the's making. There's no need to guess anything other than maybe dt/sair or reaver sair, neither of which is a game ender. There's no need to bitch about ZvP.
On another note. Fuck, TvP is dumb. All these protosses that I would stomp in pvp just own me so hard in tvp. ^^;; I guess I just suck at terran.
Who cares?
Either way go sair reaver, and if your A key is attached you should win every time.
I agree with this. Only noobs lose Shuttles to Scourges or Hydralisks. Only noobs have their cannons brokens. Only noobs have bug scarabs.
When I start a PvZ game, I just hold down the A key and voila, perfect macro, perfect micro. Before my eyes I get a Fleet Beacon and an army of Sairs that fire perfect disruption web and everything. I don't even use the mouse, I don't own one, they're too fancy for me.
On August 23 2008 02:28 Gaetele wrote: Now I'm tired of losing to stupid D- Protosses on iCCup. I'm a level C Zerg, dammit. This is getting friggin' ridiculous. People say that the races are balanced, but there's no way it is even looked at properly by Blizzard. Once Corsairs get into groups above 8 or so, even a hundred Scourge won't manage to take out one. That's just retarded. I mean, look at the story. Zerg are the race that just totally take out all groups in terms of numbers, but all of the Protoss units have retarded AoE splash that just tears through my units one by one. About 8000 Zerglings or Scourge have died in my game to Archons, Templars and Corsairs. How is this even remotely balanced!?
On August 23 2008 02:30 Chill wrote: My thoughts are pretty back and forth on this issue; I mean, although I usually have been joking all my life, Protoss is no easier than the other races. I really do believe that with the final changes Brood War got in 1.08, all races have the same potential and it comes down to player error. Remember how PvZ flipped its imbalance after FE and Bisu build became standard? I think many strategies have really turned the game around multiple times, as well as player execution. I think a really big upside to this thread is that it's going to make people finally put their blame of maps and imbalance down and focus on their own mistakes.
On August 23 2008 02:31 Phoned wrote: how are you C if you lose to D- protoss? Only play TvZ and ZvZ? I wouldn't say you are a full-fledged C if that's the case.
Now I don't think you're in a position to talk. What's your rank on iCCup? I'd venture to guess no higher than D level. How would I get to C without facing P? Like everyone on iCCup is P. You can't rise in the ranks without facing one. Don't jump to conclusions like that. It doesn't have to do with my own skill - it just happens to take no skill to properly play Protoss. I mean, not even an huge Ultraling army can take a similarly sized Protoss army head on. We also have to manage larva, and it takes Protoss a minute to completely remacro their army from their 50 Gateways (hi fOrU!)
On August 23 2008 02:31 raiame wrote: If he uses his tech you should use your tech. Use mobility to your advantage. Harass him.
Just nerf Protoss and all their overpowered tech because all their players have to do is sit at the keyboard and roll their face over the hotkeys to win. This just isn't right. I've even seen a game where a Protoss managed to outexpand a Zerg! There isn't even a logical explanation for that. What mobility?
On August 23 2008 02:59 Chill wrote: I'll answer that, even though I don't play Protoss. There are certain ZvP timings you have to get used to; tell yourself when you're going to be moving out or staying defensive. I think the problem might be that you haven't gotten used to playing defensively at certain points and aggressively at others. I do think how you do this basically shapes your success at ZvP. You can't mindlessly a-move units out (though I often advocate that) because you'll get cut up by storms and cannons. During TSL this is how I became a fairly decent ZvT player, and I think it's some advice that anyone can apply to the game. Yep the main thing to remember here is to play defensively with Lurkers, treat your Scourge like they're a Prince of Dubai, they are that important! Use the LurkerLing combination to defend; Scourge take care of his Observers. The key is not to leave any part of your army isolated... I honestly do think that when a Zerg army can flank it's the strongest army in the game, but I mean if you screw up and go noob town on it and things come in piecemeal (spelling?) then that's obviously not going to work. It's just called basic micro and tactics. -_- I think this should let you move to the late game, where Ultras can bel enough to finish him with simple UltraLing. But remember you really cannot be a simple, mindless air head with UltraLing in modern ZvP; use Defilers!
On August 23 2008 02:28 Gaetele wrote: About 8000 Zerglings or Scourge have died in my game to Archons, Templars and Corsairs. How is this even remotely balanced!?
It's not. That's why zerg has huge strategical and economical advantages over protoss.
In ZvP, Corsairs just fly around and snipe your Overlords, destroying any sort of sight you have. Even West and East scrubs still manage to beat me occasionally in PvZ (Koreans...) It's like going to Philadelphia and then getting shot while at the Liberty Bell - it's that painful. Poor Zerglings, just being born to get cut down in the prime of their life without even touching anything.
On August 23 2008 02:47 Shauni wrote: LOL. I think someone has problems with fundamentals...
And who are you to criticize my fundamentals without having any proof? I worked hard and finally raised my level of play, gaming in TSL and Spirit. It's just that Protoss can win the game by turning SC on. I admit I'm not the best player out there, but I'm not 4pooling my way to B+. There are people on the ladder that shouldn't be that high.
On August 23 2008 02:43 Little-Chimp wrote: I'm a D level at best and I will rarely lose to a D- protoss... I think someone's exaggerating their skill level a little bit.
Playground mentality, imo. Just because something is hard to believe doesn't mean that it's not true. It is not that hard to believe that some people are just bad at something - look at Casy. Remember back where he won an OSL? He's horrible at TvP. Oh wait. It must be because Protoss is imba, even vs. T!
I am not the only one who thinks so, I'm sure. I keep on practicing, practicing but still. I must have spent thousands of hours on this game but I still can't figure out this problem. It can't be my fault. And most of my friends play Protoss, with their 80 APM, but they beat me. Two of them combined is half of my APM. My multitask and macro are far above theirs but it still just isn't enough! The storm kills my entire army, and then the HTs just become Archons. My Overlords run but still see the end of their days to the ever-present Corsairs.
On August 23 2008 03:07 SiegeTanksandBlueGoo wrote: yeah, seriously, if you're losing to D- level protosses, then you are not a C level zerg. Period. I'm a C- level protoss and PvZ guessing his tech is hard as shit expecially when he copies the koreans and gest both spire and hydra den. Double Den Hydra break or Mutalisks. For protoss, if you guess wrong (or if you're a good player, you didn't scout it out completely) you are completely fucked. Gamer-ender style. If you're zerg, you know wha the's making. There's no need to guess anything other than maybe dt/sair or reaver sair, neither of which is a game ender. There's no need to bitch about ZvP.
On another note. Fuck, TvP is dumb. All these protosses that I would stomp in pvp just own me so hard in tvp. ^^;; I guess I just suck at terran.
Who cares?
Either way go sair reaver, and if your A key is attached you should win every time.
You are a very angry young man.
Leveling accuasations at every person who dares to disagree with you. You are clearly not interested in having a discussion, you are just interested in bitching. I think that this particular bitching session would be more appropriate as a blog.
I don't suppose that you could take a step back from your hubris to aknowledge that as a C level zerg you might not know everything about the game, and that there might be a flaw in your game. No I suppose that is too much to hope for.
ZvP may be imbalance, lord if I know, but I do know that you are uninterested in any real discussion on the matter.
Enjoy flaming me.
Angry? I haven't attacked anyone, I've just been smarmy.
You shouldn't be so quick to analyze the emotional make-up of everyone you meet. That's really obnoxious.
Chillin' is what you should do, kid, because you're about to get banned for trolling. As for Gatele, you're out of your mind man. You haven't cited anything from outside of the game. You should spend time maxin' your APM and strategy, instead of wasting your time crying. I do think it's actually kind of relaxin' to see all the people finally standing up and saying that PvZ is balanced. It is truly funny to see all the newbies come out of the woodwork to start complaining; I mean. although I actually find it really cool that there are so many differing opinions, only the "balanced" ones bring logical facts.
On August 23 2008 03:25 AttackZerg wrote: Zerg has been pretty then protoss FOREVER.
Julyzerg Jaedong Savior
Each in there prime embarrasses the best(lol Best) protoss routinely, even would be contenders. Julyzerg makes every toss look stupid nearly every game .... Jaedong makes mid-game ZvP look like Toss never has a chance.(two of his championships were agains P) Savior has the highest Elo peak of all time in ZvP.
The cool thing about BW, is that below the top levels, protoss is fucking awesome and balanced. And on a very very low level even dominate. Why not find 2 or 3 of your most terrible ZvP defeats.... take a notepad, watch the rep, take notes on things you could improve, Post the replays + notes in the strategy forum and begin something productive ....Whinning rarely helps win ZvP ..... I've tried.
And facts like this are what makes this argument impossible. We're talking about the D foreigner level, all the facts about the fucking ZvP Bonjwa are useless. I'm starting to consider that some people are shootin' for a flame war, I don't know, but why are you brining these facts in? Can we go back and talk some about the fundamentals of the game? We can compare this to examining the highest level of b-ball; you wouldn't start copying Shaq because you can't play at his level. Well, looking at people outside of Korea you quickly we can't play at Savior, Jaedong or JulyZerg's levels. I mean, some people of considerable talent can do some moves like them. I think foreigners still really cannot come close to the complete package. Now, I think a good idea is to go back to basic: Seriously, can we follow my school of thought and start examining the game, not the players?
On August 23 2008 03:07 SiegeTanksandBlueGoo wrote: yeah, seriously, if you're losing to D- level protosses, then you are not a C level zerg. Period. I'm a C- level protoss and PvZ guessing his tech is hard as shit expecially when he copies the koreans and gest both spire and hydra den. Double Den Hydra break or Mutalisks. For protoss, if you guess wrong (or if you're a good player, you didn't scout it out completely) you are completely fucked. Gamer-ender style. If you're zerg, you know wha the's making. There's no need to guess anything other than maybe dt/sair or reaver sair, neither of which is a game ender. There's no need to bitch about ZvP.
On another note. Fuck, TvP is dumb. All these protosses that I would stomp in pvp just own me so hard in tvp. ^^;; I guess I just suck at terran.
Who cares?
Either way go sair reaver, and if your A key is attached you should win every time.
You are a very angry young man.
Leveling accuasations at every person who dares to disagree with you. You are clearly not interested in having a discussion, you are just interested in bitching. I think that this particular bitching session would be more appropriate as a blog.
I don't suppose that you could take a step back from your hubris to aknowledge that as a C level zerg you might not know everything about the game, and that there might be a flaw in your game. No I suppose that is too much to hope for.
ZvP may be imbalance, lord if I know, but I do know that you are uninterested in any real discussion on the matter.
Enjoy flaming me.
Angry? I haven't attacked anyone, I've just been smarmy.
You shouldn't be so quick to analyze the emotional make-up of everyone you meet. That's really obnoxious.
Chillin' is what you should do, kid, because you're about to get banned for trolling. As for Gatele, you're out of your mind man. You haven't cited anything from outside of the game. You should spend time maxin' your APM and strategy, instead of wasting your time crying. I do think it's actually kind of relaxin' to see all the people finally standing up and saying that PvZ is balanced. It is truly funny to see all the newbies come out of the woodwork to start complaining; I mean. although I actually find it really cool that there are so many differing opinions, only the "balanced" ones bring logical facts.
On August 23 2008 03:25 AttackZerg wrote: Zerg has been pretty then protoss FOREVER.
Julyzerg Jaedong Savior
Each in there prime embarrasses the best(lol Best) protoss routinely, even would be contenders. Julyzerg makes every toss look stupid nearly every game .... Jaedong makes mid-game ZvP look like Toss never has a chance.(two of his championships were agains P) Savior has the highest Elo peak of all time in ZvP.
The cool thing about BW, is that below the top levels, protoss is fucking awesome and balanced. And on a very very low level even dominate. Why not find 2 or 3 of your most terrible ZvP defeats.... take a notepad, watch the rep, take notes on things you could improve, Post the replays + notes in the strategy forum and begin something productive ....Whinning rarely helps win ZvP ..... I've tried.
And facts like this are what makes this argument impossible. We're talking about the D foreigner level, all the facts about the fucking ZvP Bonjwa are useless. I'm starting to consider that some people are shootin' for a flame war, I don't know, but why are you brining these facts in? Can we go back and talk some about the fundamentals of the game? We can compare this to examining the highest level of b-ball; you wouldn't start copying Shaq because you can't play at his level. Well, looking at people outside of Korea you quickly we can't play at Savior, Jaedong or JulyZerg's levels. I mean, some people of considerable talent can do some moves like them. I think foreigners still really cannot come close to the complete package. Now, I think a good idea is to go back to basic: Seriously, can we follow my school of thought and start examining the game, not the players?
When will people stop patronizing me? Calling me newbie and everything. It's just ridiculous. I can't be a C level if I were totally newb. I think I've made my point pretty clearly in this thread. Just go play a couple of games and you would understand where I'm coming from. If people would stop citing the level of skill of progamers then we could get to the real problem - balance.
Guys that you pull off the street could probably sit down to a computer and play Protoss in SC. Boxer, who is great at Terran, started Protoss because it was the easiest. This won't reach a conclusion if it were up to Blizzard's developers. I'm not hired as a game designer, but I think that if it were completely up to me, I would just remove High Templars and Corsairs from the game. Unfortunately, it looks like, to the Blizzard developers, they don't listen to the community.
No company should just blatantly disregard the problems in front of them. Not to say that Blizzard isn't good, but look at how much whining there is on the WoW forums. Every single thread created there is started fine, but I never see a blue post about anything meaningful.
Making a good, balanced game requires input from the community, and I don't think it should be a trouble for Blizzard to do so. All they really have to do at the end of the day is to tweak some numbers in the code and then remove some and it'll be fine.
My main problem is with threads like this - people always feel the need to argue back and forth. In the neighborhood of TeamLiquid, all the houses would be throwing flaming napalm at each other. Flame on!
On August 23 2008 04:34 IntoTheWow wrote: I truly think people are bashing the maps a lot and forget about the people playing the game. You've got to change your way of playing? Well, Do so and stop blaming the maps for your mistakes. I think in retrospect the maps being accepted nowadays aren't really bad. Considering old maps, I can think of one map of the current ones being imba maybe. The rest may only need some minor modifications, a little tweaking on rushing distances, some cliffs that can be abused. Just make the map so players fight more and camp less. I don't think people really enjoy players turtling in their bases for 40 minutes and stalling the game to abuse imbalance like on Blue Storm. Remember the observers' point of view.
My main concern right now are how the games play out. You get rushed a lot PvZ? Go cry at your mom protoss bastard. Every race has concerns on maps. Terran have early game weaknesses, Zergs got cliffs and loads more stuff to worry about than Protoss. So stop always playing like you are scared of coming out. Play like a man and maybe then you will in a game. Maybe.
On August 23 2008 04:34 IntoTheWow wrote: Go cry at your mom protoss bastard.
She said you should move to an industrialized country and learn logic. Anyways, it seems what I've said time and time again keeps getting ignored, so I'll repeat it one more time:
"You're not going to get any good out of progamer level analysis." Seriously. You should stop. Keep movin' forward with this discussion by dropping the highest-level discussion and simply continue on with the discussion of the game fundamentals.
Your (the pro-imbalance side of this discussion) arguments have really fallen flat, time and time again. Auntie Helvetica is bringing up Boxer? What the fuck dude, what does Boxer have to do with Protoss and Zerg imbalance? Nothing, that's what. There comes a time when people should just stop, say uncle and move forward.
In closing, as I don't think I'll be in this thread anymore, let's mention the distribution in Europe (Ger Ita Bel Fra etc.). Look at the best players in these countries. Look here, anyone who's head isn't "full of air" should be able to see there's always been equally strong Protoss and Zergs.
On August 23 2008 04:54 Gaetele wrote: I think we should stop talking about BoxeR. He's a has-been, it's over for him. It's about time we whistled his swan song. Just another victim to the Protoss imbalance that faces Terran. If it were not for that race, perhaps we'd have more dominant Zergs besides July. Too long have we been tormented; a plague of down-syndrome newbies who pick the best looking race. With their stupid crystal Pylons, cab yellow Nexuses and Stargateways or whatever.
And when the day of Starcraft 2 comes, it doesn't look like there will be any change. Stalkers will blink when Zealots charge, and the Zerg army's mobility will be crushed even further. Now comes the time - it will be stagnant, and there will be naught but mirrors online, the Protoss wave crushing those who came new to the game. People will try the other races, sure, and they will fail. This horrid epoch draws near, if it hasn't arrived already.
The Protoss armies, with their new shiny contraptions, will clash. Terran drivers will hang up their license and resort to a life of drinking heavily. The Zerg's sharp claws, corrosive acid and chitinous plate will become old and unused, unable to cut through Protoss armor.
Said time is upon us already and we are powerless to stop it. The game will become boring. No more fresh faces or strategies on the board. It will be 1a2a3a forever. The horrendous villains of SC, the Zerg, and the survivors amongst all odds will find themselves at the wayside.
It will never be the same game. The Jaedong and Flash will be gone, replaced by the Stork and Jangbi. Had Blizzard only listened to the roar of the crowd! But it is too late, all other players said "Nope. No dice." and left the game forever, never to look back. A few lone players try playing the other races, all in a separate channel on B.Net quarantined for them. They're soon dealt with.
The game sells its copies, for sure, but all the players return to Starcraft 1, imba as it is. Tired of the mirror, Terran and Zerg will play SC1 freely, away from the tyranny of the Protoss who moved to SC2.
On August 23 2008 05:10 Chill wrote: If something could draw me back into this thread, it's a fucking retarded poster like Gaetele. Seriously. Anything this kid says it's retarded. He's already solved SC2 when he hasn't even played it... Why is it I get the feeling, over and over, like I am the only person trying to have a serious discussion; I'm sure I can say without a doubt these kids are just looking for an excuse to troll. Why is it you think you can say Boxer isn't dominant because Protoss is easy? Look at the winners of the leagues; because really this I am certain of - There have been fewer Protoss winners than any other race. Why don't you take a cab to the library and read some book on evidence, because you're just making up whatever seems it is convenient to support your argument. Look, having a Protoss major league winner is actually super rare, so why do you talk about it like it's commonplace?
But I want to turn my attention back to the original point.
I want to talk about it fundamentally. Is Protoss a simpler race than Zerg? I think mechanically (or I thought before this thread was started) are simpler than Zerg, but the lack of scouting makes up for it. Now, is the deficiencies in scouting enough to make up for the simplcity in mechanics? Also, we can't forget the difference in tactics, Zerg has more mobility and map control while the Protoss has to forfeit it and keep their army all together.
Yo can't really look at these races as the sum of parts. It's not like "well fuck dude, he has archons but holmes over there has ultras and ultras > archons so z > p." It doesn't work like that. True balance has to consider every aspect of the matchup.
Bel that as it may, we're not going to solve it here. These people would rather float in the god damned air all day than get a true discussion going.
On August 23 2008 05:17 Gaetele wrote: I think you guys have lost the point of this thread - the balance. The point of conversation has been pulled far too thin among all the flame wars, especially to me. I don't know what you posters are getting up to, but I will stand firm on my stance. Protoss imba, nerf plz.
To many others, it may seem like I'm trolling, but I assure you, I'm dead serious. This stupid race is the one thing that has gotten me truly angry about this game. I have played your pubs. I have played in house games as well, clan wars etc. I'm not horrible, but you guys think I am without warrant.
About 80% of you think I'm totally retarded, and all I have to say is **** you. Go run around with your seven million HP Zealots or whatever because you're all stupid Protoss scum. You're probably gaming or masturbating while posting because your race is just that damn easy. "Durf hurr, build the Pylon at 8, make Gateway, win hurf durr." Good job. You hit one of the 5 buttons on the keyboard that aren't 'a' and you must feel so accomplished about yourself.
I don't see how some of you people are so blind. Maybe you're just fine with not having any skill. You're yelled at by your parents and friends and you don't care because you like how easy you have it. Have to have it the easy way, don't you? I can hit 1a2a3a too but I decide not to because I want a challenge.
The upbringing you must have had is great too. Probably rich and spoiled just like the Protoss are. Cabbie to drive you home and back from school or whatever, nose turned up in the air. People scream "Yo! You dropped your watch!" but it's ok, you can just buy a new one.
Home's probably a great place too. You don't have any chores or anything - your maid's got that. If the smell in your house isn't perfect then you can just find a new one, right?
You Protoss players and blind non-Protoss players are retarded and disgust me. When SC2 comes later and you all lose like I do, you'll come whining to me and I'll just flip you off.
On August 23 2008 05:33 Chill wrote: I think this is it. Now it's full out trolling. When this discussion originally began, to me at least, it sorta looked like a potential to finally get the PvZ stigmas out in the open. Here we're now standing together, at the apex of this glorious thread. And some of you are left wondering "How could Teamliquid close my thread but this garbage is still open?." Well, the truth is Protoss is an easy race. For example, Kingdom, is a garbage Protoss who got to the top with simple things a monkey could do.
I have let fly with the painful arrows of truth. If you can hit 1a2a3a4a5a6a you can play Protoss, but that was inevitably going to come out. But it feels good, to be done with this thread, and we reach the end; finally, you will be turned onto what thine eyes hath missed. Open this thread in Mozilla Firefox, and there before you, at the first of every new line, shall appear a glorious mesasge.
On August 23 2008 05:33 Chill wrote: To sit on my throne as the Prince of Bel Air.
some of chills dont work for me :[ so I had to add linebreaks for this one
On August 23 2008 04:05 SonuvBob wrote: Terrans just don't understand.
When I first started reading the thread, Chill had obviously made some addtion to page one already. Weird things where happening to my computer and I was scared. I closed my FF afraid of some outside attack. Like a little bunny though, I crawled out of my offline-cave and sniffed again, then a little more and finally I fully swallowed the bait. It took me several pages to even remotely figure out that something was up. Niceley done. I guesss bunnies just shouldn't be out that late, especially with that p>z imba in the air ;-)
I have teh same problem. Everytime I play against Protoss they have the same damn units as me! WHAT THE FUCK! Protoss is IMBA cuz they copy my BO everytime i play them and Tassadar is by far the coolest hero which makes them even more imba.
Seriously this has been beaten to death, before Bisu Z was imba now everyone just cries there little eyes out about how hard it is to beat Protoss.
Seriously does nobody understand yet? This game is as close to balanced as any has ever come, your just a noob.
On August 24 2008 08:29 Sp1ralArch1tect wrote: I have teh same problem. Everytime I play against Protoss they have the same damn units as me! WHAT THE FUCK! Protoss is IMBA cuz they copy my BO everytime i play them and Tassadar is by far the coolest hero which makes them even more imba.
Seriously this has been beaten to death, before Bisu Z was imba now everyone just cries there little eyes out about how hard it is to beat Protoss.
Seriously does nobody understand yet? This game is as close to balanced as any has ever come, your just a noob.
QQ more plz
How have you gotten this far in life being illiterate?
I've been a member of this site for a long fucking time (I even read the site for 6-12 months before I ever registered)...For the most part I just lurk when bored.. but I felt compelled to actually log in and say how fucking stupid this thread is. Yes, you trolled them with the 4chan, fresh prince BS..
HA HA .... HA. Or not.
What a dumb waste of internet space. I was going to suggest you all find something better to do with yourselves, but I'm just as fucking stupid for having read it all. The amount of idiots that did post without having read the topic, combined with the idiocy of the premise and the fact that I wasted so much time reading it has elicited about 100 proverbial /facepalms...
Everyone knows ZvP is imba... Z turtles with lurks, techs to ultraling, routinely sends a platoon of cracklings, demolishing nexuses in 2 secs... ultraling beats all. Z IS IMBA
On November 06 2009 18:17 motbob wrote: This thread got 18 pages. The ZvP is imbalanced thread got 42 pages. it's obvious who is right
I think the # of pages has more to do with how popular TL was at the respective times. Its been getting more and more popular as time goes on with SC2 impending.
I think the point is to prove that at one time, durring the reign of the Dragons, it was valid to argue a PvZ imba.
Yeah I don't think anyone is claiming P > Z over time.
What pro's have stated that ZvP is easy again? Savior, Jju I'm sure there's a couple more. A rusty (like really out of it) fucker like Yellow manages to take out Bisu, says something about the matchup too.
On November 06 2009 18:59 Foucault wrote: Yeah I don't think anyone is claiming P > Z over time.
What pro's have stated that ZvP is easy again? Savior, Jju I'm sure there's a couple more. A rusty (like really out of it) fucker like Yellow manages to take out Bisu, says something about the matchup too.
Savior raped anyone at the time, both terran and protosses. Noob. Also, bisu caused savior to slump, that means that protoss is overpowered.!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!11
On November 06 2009 18:59 Foucault wrote: Yeah I don't think anyone is claiming P > Z over time.
What pro's have stated that ZvP is easy again? Savior, Jju I'm sure there's a couple more. A rusty (like really out of it) fucker like Yellow manages to take out Bisu, says something about the matchup too.
On November 06 2009 18:59 Foucault wrote: Yeah I don't think anyone is claiming P > Z over time.
What pro's have stated that ZvP is easy again? Savior, Jju I'm sure there's a couple more. A rusty (like really out of it) fucker like Yellow manages to take out Bisu, says something about the matchup too.
Savior raped anyone at the time, both terran and protosses. Noob. Also, bisu caused savior to slump, that means that protoss is overpowered.!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!11
~Chill has attractive voice!
Yeah and he didn't say ZvT was easy because it isn't lol
On November 06 2009 18:59 Foucault wrote: Yeah I don't think anyone is claiming P > Z over time.
What pro's have stated that ZvP is easy again? Savior, Jju I'm sure there's a couple more. A rusty (like really out of it) fucker like Yellow manages to take out Bisu, says something about the matchup too.
On November 06 2009 18:59 Foucault wrote: Yeah I don't think anyone is claiming P > Z over time.
What pro's have stated that ZvP is easy again? Savior, Jju I'm sure there's a couple more. A rusty (like really out of it) fucker like Yellow manages to take out Bisu, says something about the matchup too.
Savior raped anyone at the time, both terran and protosses. Noob. Also, bisu caused savior to slump, that means that protoss is overpowered.!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!11
~Chill has attractive voice!
Yeah and he didn't say ZvT was easy because it isn't lol
On November 06 2009 18:59 Foucault wrote: Yeah I don't think anyone is claiming P > Z over time.
What pro's have stated that ZvP is easy again? Savior, Jju I'm sure there's a couple more. A rusty (like really out of it) fucker like Yellow manages to take out Bisu, says something about the matchup too.
On November 06 2009 18:59 Foucault wrote: Yeah I don't think anyone is claiming P > Z over time.
What pro's have stated that ZvP is easy again? Savior, Jju I'm sure there's a couple more. A rusty (like really out of it) fucker like Yellow manages to take out Bisu, says something about the matchup too.
At low levels the races are at the same level of balance as they are in the pros BUT it doesn't matter since player mistakes are much more important below A-rank iccup.
Protoss is more forgiving! If you lose your shizzle as terran or zerg in earlygame, then it's gg, but not as protoss.
~Chill has attractive voice!
On November 06 2009 19:20 motbob wrote: At low levels the races are at the same level of balance as they are in the pros BUT it doesn't matter since player mistakes are much more important below A-rank iccup.
What about mutalisks picking off high templars like they arent no shit, and you can hold off an entire protoss army for ages if you scourge the observers properly.
Not to mention cracklings that can take down a nexus in 4 seconds if you place one dark swarm over it.
At low level protoss can be a pain sometimes, but it is not the game, it is the players.
Also seems like you expect to win against a protoss army in one big fight and thats not how ZvP works. You have to take out their army bit by bit. And try to not attack during the mid game, You need hive to fight off that protoss push so you need to delay and harass as much as possible.
Player skill is the main determinant of the result of the game. Not race differences. Sure Cracklings may be a problem, or Stacked Corshair.... but wins/losses are results of player skill.
Too_MuchZerg February 14, 2008 03:51 Thread: ! [G] Modern Zerg Strategy
I did watch a lot of your ZvP replays (iccup replay package thread). I just wonder what is the reason why you upgrade ling attack first rather than hydra attack even if you pump a lot hydras (way more than lings)+ huge use of lurkers? Few games you lost (my opinion) because upgrading that but you didnt even use ling attack (seeing 0-2 hydras attacking protoss when 2-2 updgrades goes waste).
Why not go 3 evo chambers, even 2-1-2 is better than 2-0-2 i think (or 1-1-2). Plz no "preparing for ultralisk" answer
(2-0-2 I understand if army is ling/lurker but its not usually)
One of my first posts asking about +1 hydra attack and why its not used. I got instantly denied but I got my revenge lol.
lol thanks for the bump... this isn't too old either... it gives some perspective on the waning interests of starcraft followers.... total bandwagon bullfrogs
Having played Zerg to D+ and Protoss to C- i must say this thread is incredibly ignorant.
While it's obvious that a critical mass of corsair can't be taken down by scourge, i fail to see the problem as a hydra ground army will overwhelm both them, and the protoss ground army seeing how the protoss invested in all those corsair.
If anything is easier (on iCCup) in that matchup it's zerg.
Zerg have one of the most powerful and easy-win strategies of all races, all-in hydra or mass zerglings early one. Those are some of the easiest strategies to execute and will often on both D and D+ result in a win (I have a noob friend who made C- by all-in ling cheese only!).
And saying that a larger ultraling army won't take a smaller protoss ground force is just pure ignorance, the hardest thing for me currently to deal with is the ultraling fast tech. I've failed many times to overwhelm a zerg, seeing as they play extremely safe with lurkers and sunks on 3 bases, teching directly to ultralisk.
Taking a look at the replay, they have 3000 minerals and 3000 gas by the time they reach their tech, totally incapable of keeping up their macro, but once they reach ultralisk you can see their resources dropping to 100 without adding further hatcheries.
Zerg is well known for being able to replace an entire army in an instant, so how can a supposedly C zerg argue that protoss can replace their entire army (of extremely expensive units) in no time?
On November 06 2009 21:36 MaD.pYrO wrote: Having played Zerg to D+ and Protoss to C- i must say this thread is incredibly ignorant.
While it's obvious that a critical mass of corsair can't be taken down by scourge, i fail to see the problem as a hydra ground army will overwhelm both them, and the protoss ground army seeing how the protoss invested in all those corsair.
If anything is easier (on iCCup) in that matchup it's zerg.
Zerg have one of the most powerful and easy-win strategies of all races, all-in hydra or mass zerglings early one. Those are some of the easiest strategies to execute and will often on both D and D+ result in a win (I have a noob friend who made C- by all-in ling cheese only!).
And saying that a larger ultraling army won't take a smaller protoss ground force is just pure ignorance, the hardest thing for me currently to deal with is the ultraling fast tech. I've failed many times to overwhelm a zerg, seeing as they play extremely safe with lurkers and sunks on 3 bases, teching directly to ultralisk.
Taking a look at the replay, they have 3000 minerals and 3000 gas by the time they reach their tech, totally incapable of keeping up their macro, but once they reach ultralisk you can see their resources dropping to 100 without adding further hatcheries.
Zerg is well known for being able to replace an entire army in an instant, so how can a supposedly C zerg argue that protoss can replace their entire army (of extremely expensive units) in no time?
On November 06 2009 21:36 MaD.pYrO wrote: Having played Zerg to D+ and Protoss to C- i must say this thread is incredibly ignorant.
While it's obvious that a critical mass of corsair can't be taken down by scourge, i fail to see the problem as a hydra ground army will overwhelm both them, and the protoss ground army seeing how the protoss invested in all those corsair.
If anything is easier (on iCCup) in that matchup it's zerg.
Zerg have one of the most powerful and easy-win strategies of all races, all-in hydra or mass zerglings early one. Those are some of the easiest strategies to execute and will often on both D and D+ result in a win (I have a noob friend who made C- by all-in ling cheese only!).
And saying that a larger ultraling army won't take a smaller protoss ground force is just pure ignorance, the hardest thing for me currently to deal with is the ultraling fast tech. I've failed many times to overwhelm a zerg, seeing as they play extremely safe with lurkers and sunks on 3 bases, teching directly to ultralisk.
Taking a look at the replay, they have 3000 minerals and 3000 gas by the time they reach their tech, totally incapable of keeping up their macro, but once they reach ultralisk you can see their resources dropping to 100 without adding further hatcheries.
Zerg is well known for being able to replace an entire army in an instant, so how can a supposedly C zerg argue that protoss can replace their entire army (of extremely expensive units) in no time?
On November 06 2009 22:02 Osmoses wrote: Here's a counter argument for you: read the thread before replying. And no, I'm not saying there is something about zvp worth reading...
The response was directed at the OP, cba to read through 20 pages of this nonsense ._.
On November 06 2009 22:02 Osmoses wrote: Here's a counter argument for you: read the thread before replying. And no, I'm not saying there is something about zvp worth reading...
The response was directed at the OP, cba to read through 20 pages of this nonsense ._.
On November 06 2009 21:36 MaD.pYrO wrote: Having played Zerg to D+ and Protoss to C- i must say this thread is incredibly ignorant.
While it's obvious that a critical mass of corsair can't be taken down by scourge, i fail to see the problem as a hydra ground army will overwhelm both them, and the protoss ground army seeing how the protoss invested in all those corsair.
If anything is easier (on iCCup) in that matchup it's zerg.
Zerg have one of the most powerful and easy-win strategies of all races, all-in hydra or mass zerglings early one. Those are some of the easiest strategies to execute and will often on both D and D+ result in a win (I have a noob friend who made C- by all-in ling cheese only!).
And saying that a larger ultraling army won't take a smaller protoss ground force is just pure ignorance, the hardest thing for me currently to deal with is the ultraling fast tech. I've failed many times to overwhelm a zerg, seeing as they play extremely safe with lurkers and sunks on 3 bases, teching directly to ultralisk.
Taking a look at the replay, they have 3000 minerals and 3000 gas by the time they reach their tech, totally incapable of keeping up their macro, but once they reach ultralisk you can see their resources dropping to 100 without adding further hatcheries.
Zerg is well known for being able to replace an entire army in an instant, so how can a supposedly C zerg argue that protoss can replace their entire army (of extremely expensive units) in no time?
I call bullshit!
I instantly knew your icon after reading your post LOL
Your argument lacks logic. Zerg = easy because you can get C- by just doing cheese? Zerg = easy because you can mass ultralisks and your resources will go down? lmao
Zerg is well known for being able to replace an entire army in an instant, so how can a supposedly C zerg argue that protoss can replace their entire army (of extremely expensive units) in no time
On November 06 2009 18:59 Foucault wrote: Yeah I don't think anyone is claiming P > Z over time.
What pro's have stated that ZvP is easy again? Savior, Jju I'm sure there's a couple more. A rusty (like really out of it) fucker like Yellow manages to take out Bisu, says something about the matchup too.
Savior raped anyone at the time, both terran and protosses. Noob. Also, bisu caused savior to slump, that means that protoss is overpowered.!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!11
~Chill has attractive voice!
Yeah and he didn't say ZvT was easy because it isn't lol
On November 06 2009 19:12 Mortician wrote:
On November 06 2009 18:59 Foucault wrote: Yeah I don't think anyone is claiming P > Z over time.
What pro's have stated that ZvP is easy again? Savior, Jju I'm sure there's a couple more. A rusty (like really out of it) fucker like Yellow manages to take out Bisu, says something about the matchup too.
Yellow cheesed Bisu = doesnt count
Fine
lol this made me laugh, saviors smurf used to be metrosexual
On November 06 2009 21:36 MaD.pYrO wrote: Having played Zerg to D+ and Protoss to C- i must say this thread is incredibly ignorant.
While it's obvious that a critical mass of corsair can't be taken down by scourge, i fail to see the problem as a hydra ground army will overwhelm both them, and the protoss ground army seeing how the protoss invested in all those corsair.
If anything is easier (on iCCup) in that matchup it's zerg.
Zerg have one of the most powerful and easy-win strategies of all races, all-in hydra or mass zerglings early one. Those are some of the easiest strategies to execute and will often on both D and D+ result in a win (I have a noob friend who made C- by all-in ling cheese only!).
And saying that a larger ultraling army won't take a smaller protoss ground force is just pure ignorance, the hardest thing for me currently to deal with is the ultraling fast tech. I've failed many times to overwhelm a zerg, seeing as they play extremely safe with lurkers and sunks on 3 bases, teching directly to ultralisk.
Taking a look at the replay, they have 3000 minerals and 3000 gas by the time they reach their tech, totally incapable of keeping up their macro, but once they reach ultralisk you can see their resources dropping to 100 without adding further hatcheries.
Zerg is well known for being able to replace an entire army in an instant, so how can a supposedly C zerg argue that protoss can replace their entire army (of extremely expensive units) in no time?
On November 06 2009 18:59 Foucault wrote: Yeah I don't think anyone is claiming P > Z over time.
What pro's have stated that ZvP is easy again? Savior, Jju I'm sure there's a couple more. A rusty (like really out of it) fucker like Yellow manages to take out Bisu, says something about the matchup too.
Savior raped anyone at the time, both terran and protosses. Noob. Also, bisu caused savior to slump, that means that protoss is overpowered.!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!11
~Chill has attractive voice!
Yeah and he didn't say ZvT was easy because it isn't lol
On November 06 2009 19:12 Mortician wrote:
On November 06 2009 18:59 Foucault wrote: Yeah I don't think anyone is claiming P > Z over time.
What pro's have stated that ZvP is easy again? Savior, Jju I'm sure there's a couple more. A rusty (like really out of it) fucker like Yellow manages to take out Bisu, says something about the matchup too.
Yellow cheesed Bisu = doesnt count
Fine
You have to be ironic. I don't think anyone is of the opinion that P > Z. That's just stupid
On November 06 2009 22:32 JohannesH wrote: Who are the idiots who think another race is imba stronger but stay with their shitty race?
We're called Terran.
Ahahahaha, this is so great!
I just switched to zerg after playing terran a few years so I can (and do) finally have bloody, cruel revenge on those protosses and their annoying dts/reavers/carriers/arbiters etc.
This thread sucks man. Is every mod crazy or something, I can not think of a reason why this isn't closed yet. It is just one annoying thing after another that wastes space. Any Thread should have a function and purpose beyond Trolling n00bs. People have the right against flames, is it so wrong to have better things to spend time on?
On November 07 2009 01:44 SWPIGWANG wrote: This thread sucks man. Is every mod crazy or something, I can not think of a reason why this isn't closed yet. It is just one annoying thing after another that wastes space. Any Thread should have a function and purpose beyond Trolling n00bs. People have the right against flames, is it so wrong to have better things to spend time on?
Lame, thats all I can say about this.
This thread takes another victim.... I'm going to be watching this thread with great enthusiasm from now on lol!
omg, i didn't see this thread, i'm so happy it got bumped ! I didn't get it at all, even though Chill was acting weird letting this thread go on...
anyway, great piece of work !
On November 07 2009 01:25 JWD wrote: The best part about these classic threads is that when they're bumped, it's always by fools who haven't figured out the joke
On November 07 2009 01:44 SWPIGWANG wrote: This thread sucks man. Is every mod crazy or something, I can not think of a reason why this isn't closed yet. It is just one annoying thing after another that wastes space. Any Thread should have a function and purpose beyond Trolling n00bs. People have the right against flames, is it so wrong to have better things to spend time on?
Lame, thats all I can say about this.
This thread takes another victim.... I'm going to be watching this thread with great enthusiasm from now on lol!
sorry but i think you fell for it, just read the first word each line. Even though it's not so funny imo.
Never have I seen a thread misinterpreted so much. True, the title is designed to troll, and you're gonna expect everyone to have some knee-jerk reaction; but you'd expect people would eventually give it some thought, or at least read through the whole thread. When even the mods here are telling you that you are being trolled and that the kneejerk post is foolish, there're still people who don't shut up.
On November 07 2009 02:10 StylishVODs wrote: The best joke in this thread is obviously the title:D can't stop laughing
too bad it wasn't for real, i'd really like to imagine an angry nerd raging over protoss for so many times that he finally cannot hold it back.
Sylish sez it all. But I must wonder how did you get to know this fact? You played PvT vs me and saw my nerdrage when I lost it coz you just 1a2a3a4a me or what?
P.S. just kiddin' on nerdrage I don't do it (anymore that is)
There was an ad up last night on the top banner, after this got bumped... it said something like "Protoss are really super IMBA". Should have screen captured it, shit was hillarious.
On November 07 2009 01:44 SWPIGWANG wrote: This thread sucks man. Is every mod crazy or something, I can not think of a reason why this isn't closed yet. It is just one annoying thing after another that wastes space. Any Thread should have a function and purpose beyond Trolling n00bs. People have the right against flames, is it so wrong to have better things to spend time on?
Lame, thats all I can say about this.
This thread takes another victim.... I'm going to be watching this thread with great enthusiasm from now on lol!
I see the use of line breaks do not trigger automatically.
But anyway, to go though all this work just to ....i don't know, show off how much spare time the admin has?
Lately, we've all discussed how imbalanced ZvP is... the other way around. It's the Zergs that win way to often, so this post sort of surprised me, although don't ask me for advice, I suck at playing Zerg. But you shoud check out a thread about why Z > P to see what you should do. Also...
On August 23 2008 03:01 Goosey wrote: How do threads like this not get closed instantly.
On November 07 2009 03:44 HaXXspetten wrote: Lately, we've all discussed how imbalanced ZvP is... the other way around. It's the Zergs that win way to often, so this post sort of surprised me, although don't ask me for advice, I suck at playing Zerg. But you shoud check out a thread about why Z > P to see what you should do. Also...
On November 07 2009 01:25 JWD wrote: The best part about these classic threads is that when they're bumped, it's always by fools who haven't figured out the joke
The carrier captain is a badass, he doesn't pull his punches man. For years I thought the goon said "Make you serve me" rather than "Make use of me". I thought it was weird lol.
Regarding the imbalance, I think Protoss is easier at lower skill levels because it has less micro (less units) and very strong units, but is harder at higher skill levels, because the other races have more units (mostly applies to zerg), meaning more stuff to micro, meaning if you're good enough to master all of that, the skill ceiling is higher.
Dunno, Protoss just seems to have a tough time at the highest skill levels. And I don't mean just right now, I mean across all of BW progaming.
Never have I seen a single person on these forums who thought sc was truly balanced gonna go out on a limb here and say everyone reading has felt sc is imbalanced at some point give it some thought though, you never hear that much bitching about it at pro level do you? you think its imbalanced because its harder to learn to play VS protoss then to learn to play protoss. up till now in the pro scene zvp balance has fluctuated pretty hard because of shifts in metagame never at any point was it clearly Z=P, because both races found new ways to dick each other gonna be P>Z again at some point, after Protoss figures out a good way to counter 5 hatch hydra let it lie for now though, as it is its not TOO imbalanced...just kinda tipped to one side you have to consider, as a protoss, that some of your templar are gonna die by getting shot down to mutas no matter WHAT, so you need extra ones, which is the core of the imbalance.
lol TheAntZ that must have taken forever to craft... This is why I love TL - when someone bumps an old thread you always forget about the previous stuff. SC is just a game where the best player wins everyone.
On November 07 2009 06:50 TheAntZ wrote: Never have I seen a single person on these forums who thought sc was truly balanced gonna go out on a limb here and say everyone reading has felt sc is imbalanced at some point give it some thought though, you never hear that much bitching about it at pro level do you? you think its imbalanced because its harder to learn to play VS protoss then to learn to play protoss. up till now in the pro scene zvp balance has fluctuated pretty hard because of shifts in metagame never at any point was it clearly Z=P, because both races found new ways to dick each other gonna be P>Z again at some point, after Protoss figures out a good way to counter 5 hatch hydra let it lie for now though, as it is its not TOO imbalanced...just kinda tipped to one side you have to consider, as a protoss, that some of your templar are gonna die by getting shot down to mutas no matter WHAT, so you need extra ones, which is the core of the imbalance.
On November 07 2009 06:50 TheAntZ wrote: Never have I seen a single person on these forums who thought sc was truly balanced gonna go out on a limb here and say everyone reading has felt sc is imbalanced at some point give it some thought though, you never hear that much bitching about it at pro level do you? you think its imbalanced because its harder to learn to play VS protoss then to learn to play protoss. up till now in the pro scene zvp balance has fluctuated pretty hard because of shifts in metagame never at any point was it clearly Z=P, because both races found new ways to dick each other gonna be P>Z again at some point, after Protoss figures out a good way to counter 5 hatch hydra let it lie for now though, as it is its not TOO imbalanced...just kinda tipped to one side you have to consider, as a protoss, that some of your templar are gonna die by getting shot down to mutas no matter WHAT, so you need extra ones, which is the core of the imbalance.
Haha, I remember this thread. For some reason, reading it again, Chills posts are off, while Gaetele nails it. I am pretty sure that Chill got it right too, but for some reason he doesn't.
Oh, just saw the edit date on Chills first post, that's why he is talking nonsense.
On November 07 2009 06:50 TheAntZ wrote: Never have I seen a single person on these forums who thought sc was truly balanced gonna go out on a limb here and say everyone reading has felt sc is imbalanced at some point give it some thought though, you never hear that much bitching about it at pro level do you? you think its imbalanced because its harder to learn to play VS protoss then to learn to play protoss. up till now in the pro scene zvp balance has fluctuated pretty hard because of shifts in metagame never at any point was it clearly Z=P, because both races found new ways to dick each other gonna be P>Z again at some point, after Protoss figures out a good way to counter 5 hatch hydra let it lie for now though, as it is its not TOO imbalanced...just kinda tipped to one side you have to consider, as a protoss, that some of your templar are gonna die by getting shot down to mutas no matter WHAT, so you need extra ones, which is the core of the imbalance.
... On a serious note, ANYONE in this game can DT rush and be succesful. I generally play T, and when I start to feel my rank on iccup is getting too low (<500) I'll take on of the D+ players who enter my games, I'll select toss instead of Terran, and I'll DT rush him. It's nearly impossible to stop, especially if you can block the scouting. Instant ~200 points for me. Do it twice, and I'm ready to go lose more games as terran.
On November 07 2009 12:04 Funnytoss wrote: Whatever the reason, it's amusing to watch how clueless/lazy people can be...
I don't know why this is ever the case. I feel that people come to the Broodwar forum to actually learn things about Broodwar, not to waste their time reading through posts designed specifically to anger and annoy them out of the sheer stupidity of their argument, however intentional it might be. I feel that "trolling," particularly by the likes of administrators and moderators, is not a great thing for this community and I do wish it would stop.
On November 07 2009 06:50 TheAntZ wrote: Never have I seen a single person on these forums who thought sc was truly balanced gonna go out on a limb here and say everyone reading has felt sc is imbalanced at some point give it some thought though, you never hear that much bitching about it at pro level do you? you think its imbalanced because its harder to learn to play VS protoss then to learn to play protoss. up till now in the pro scene zvp balance has fluctuated pretty hard because of shifts in metagame never at any point was it clearly Z=P, because both races found new ways to dick each other gonna be P>Z again at some point, after Protoss figures out a good way to counter 5 hatch hydra let it lie for now though, as it is its not TOO imbalanced...just kinda tipped to one side you have to consider, as a protoss, that some of your templar are gonna die by getting shot down to mutas no matter WHAT, so you need extra ones, which is the core of the imbalance.
On November 07 2009 06:50 TheAntZ wrote: Never have I seen a single person on these forums who thought sc was truly balanced gonna go out on a limb here and say everyone reading has felt sc is imbalanced at some point give it some thought though, you never hear that much bitching about it at pro level do you? you think its imbalanced because its harder to learn to play VS protoss then to learn to play protoss. up till now in the pro scene zvp balance has fluctuated pretty hard because of shifts in metagame never at any point was it clearly Z=P, because both races found new ways to dick each other gonna be P>Z again at some point, after Protoss figures out a good way to counter 5 hatch hydra let it lie for now though, as it is its not TOO imbalanced...just kinda tipped to one side you have to consider, as a protoss, that some of your templar are gonna die by getting shot down to mutas no matter WHAT, so you need extra ones, which is the core of the imbalance.
On November 07 2009 06:50 TheAntZ wrote: Never have I seen a single person on these forums who thought sc was truly balanced gonna go out on a limb here and say everyone reading has felt sc is imbalanced at some point give it some thought though, you never hear that much bitching about it at pro level do you? you think its imbalanced because its harder to learn to play VS protoss then to learn to play protoss. up till now in the pro scene zvp balance has fluctuated pretty hard because of shifts in metagame never at any point was it clearly Z=P, because both races found new ways to dick each other gonna be P>Z again at some point, after Protoss figures out a good way to counter 5 hatch hydra let it lie for now though, as it is its not TOO imbalanced...just kinda tipped to one side you have to consider, as a protoss, that some of your templar are gonna die by getting shot down to mutas no matter WHAT, so you need extra ones, which is the core of the imbalance.
On November 07 2009 12:04 Funnytoss wrote: Whatever the reason, it's amusing to watch how clueless/lazy people can be...
I don't know why this is ever the case. I feel that people come to the Broodwar forum to actually learn things about Broodwar, not to waste their time reading through posts designed specifically to anger and annoy them out of the sheer stupidity of their argument, however intentional it might be. I feel that "trolling," particularly by the likes of administrators and moderators, is not a great thing for this community and I do wish it would stop.
Clearly, you've missed the point of this particular thread.
On November 07 2009 10:16 phyre112 wrote: ... On a serious note, ANYONE in this game can DT rush and be succesful. I generally play T, and when I start to feel my rank on iccup is getting too low (<500) I'll take on of the D+ players who enter my games, I'll select toss instead of Terran, and I'll DT rush him. It's nearly impossible to stop, especially if you can block the scouting. Instant ~200 points for me. Do it twice, and I'm ready to go lose more games as terran.
On November 07 2009 06:50 TheAntZ wrote: Never have I seen a single person on these forums who thought sc was truly balanced gonna go out on a limb here and say everyone reading has felt sc is imbalanced at some point give it some thought though, you never hear that much bitching about it at pro level do you? you think its imbalanced because its harder to learn to play VS protoss then to learn to play protoss. up till now in the pro scene zvp balance has fluctuated pretty hard because of shifts in metagame never at any point was it clearly Z=P, because both races found new ways to dick each other gonna be P>Z again at some point, after Protoss figures out a good way to counter 5 hatch hydra let it lie for now though, as it is its not TOO imbalanced...just kinda tipped to one side you have to consider, as a protoss, that some of your templar are gonna die by getting shot down to mutas no matter WHAT, so you need extra ones, which is the core of the imbalance.
oh thats beautiful
oh, I give up.
i searched the entire thread and didnt see posts by you what are you talking about D:
this thread got out of hand really fast... I didn't bother reading the whole thing but i find it funny that BW is in a similar state right now, except now protoss is unfavored. mutalisks constantly sniping ht's is madness! I guess the logical thing for protosses to do at this point is ask themselves, is this really madness? or is there a light at the end of the tunnel for protoss? new strategies might be able to fix this situation: bisu did it once, but we need another hero is innovate a new zerg killing strategy.
Is the DA the answer to the PvZ situation? I say no. We would be better off taking a lesson from Sparta. We NEED discipline, we NEED to train and devote our entire existence to beating zerg... with a little (scrap that, a lot) of patience, hard work, and ingenuity we can do this... I'm just trying to prove a point here: we shouldn't blame the game. No, obviously we will need to augment our perspective: like a storm we can take PvZ back! Let's do this!
On August 23 2008 02:31 Phoned wrote: how are you C if you lose to D- protoss? Only play TvZ and ZvZ? I wouldn't say you are a full-fledged C if that's the case.
Now I don't think you're in a position to talk. What's your rank on iCCup? I'd venture to guess no higher than D level. How would I get to C without facing P? Like everyone on iCCup is P. You can't rise in the ranks without facing one. Don't jump to conclusions like that. It doesn't have to do with my own skill - it just happens to take no skill to properly play Protoss. I mean, not even an huge Ultraling army can take a similarly sized Protoss army head on. We also have to manage larva, and it takes Protoss a minute to completely remacro their army from their 50 Gateways (hi fOrU!)
On August 23 2008 02:31 raiame wrote: If he uses his tech you should use your tech. Use mobility to your advantage. Harass him.
Just nerf Protoss and all their overpowered tech because all their players have to do is sit at the keyboard and roll their face over the hotkeys to win. This just isn't right. I've even seen a game where a Protoss managed to outexpand a Zerg! There isn't even a logical explanation for that. What mobility?
Wow, I can't really tell if this guy is serious or what... How are you gonna sit here and call someone out on their rank when D- players (who don't know timing, counters, builds and cant macro/micro) constantly rail you? If you are C at any level I don't care what MU's you should have high enough fundamentals to beat lower level players. Your stupidity and ignorance amaze me.
On August 23 2008 02:31 Phoned wrote: how are you C if you lose to D- protoss? Only play TvZ and ZvZ? I wouldn't say you are a full-fledged C if that's the case.
Now I don't think you're in a position to talk. What's your rank on iCCup? I'd venture to guess no higher than D level. How would I get to C without facing P? Like everyone on iCCup is P. You can't rise in the ranks without facing one. Don't jump to conclusions like that. It doesn't have to do with my own skill - it just happens to take no skill to properly play Protoss. I mean, not even an huge Ultraling army can take a similarly sized Protoss army head on. We also have to manage larva, and it takes Protoss a minute to completely remacro their army from their 50 Gateways (hi fOrU!)
On August 23 2008 02:31 raiame wrote: If he uses his tech you should use your tech. Use mobility to your advantage. Harass him.
Just nerf Protoss and all their overpowered tech because all their players have to do is sit at the keyboard and roll their face over the hotkeys to win. This just isn't right. I've even seen a game where a Protoss managed to outexpand a Zerg! There isn't even a logical explanation for that. What mobility?
Wow, I can't really tell if this guy is serious or what... How are you gonna sit here and call someone out on their rank when D- players (who don't know timing, counters, builds and cant macro/micro) constantly rail you? If you are C at any level I don't care what MU's you should have high enough fundamentals to beat lower level players. Your stupidity and ignorance amaze me.
Teletubby you are a PRO by bumping this shit up....
Look how 90% of the people dont even read at least the latest posts to get a grip of what they are talking about and you can see them talking SHIT...
Lets try again:
PEOPLE, THIS THREAD IS NOT REAL IT IS A VERY CLEVER WAY TO TEST IF YOU DONT READ ANYTHING BEFORE POSTING (and a cool trolling by the admins, but that is not important)...
THE POINT OF THE FREAKING THREAD IS THIS:
On August 23 2008 06:16 SonuvBob wrote: For the lazy:
On August 23 2008 02:28 Gaetele wrote: Now I'm tired of losing to stupid D- Protosses on iCCup. I'm a level C Zerg, dammit. This is getting friggin' ridiculous. People say that the races are balanced, but there's no way it is even looked at properly by Blizzard. Once Corsairs get into groups above 8 or so, even a hundred Scourge won't manage to take out one. That's just retarded. I mean, look at the story. Zerg are the race that just totally take out all groups in terms of numbers, but all of the Protoss units have retarded AoE splash that just tears through my units one by one. About 8000 Zerglings or Scourge have died in my game to Archons, Templars and Corsairs. How is this even remotely balanced!?
On August 23 2008 02:30 Chill wrote: My thoughts are pretty back and forth on this issue; I mean, although I usually have been joking all my life, Protoss is no easier than the other races. I really do believe that with the final changes Brood War got in 1.08, all races have the same potential and it comes down to player error. Remember how PvZ flipped its imbalance after FE and Bisu build became standard? I think many strategies have really turned the game around multiple times, as well as player execution. I think a really big upside to this thread is that it's going to make people finally put their blame of maps and imbalance down and focus on their own mistakes.
On August 23 2008 02:39 Gaetele wrote: Now I don't think you're in a position to talk. What's your rank on iCCup? I'd venture to guess no higher than D level. How would I get to C without facing P? Like everyone on iCCup is P. You can't rise in the ranks without facing one. Don't jump to conclusions like that. It doesn't have to do with my own skill - it just happens to take no skill to properly play Protoss. I mean, not even an huge Ultraling army can take a similarly sized Protoss army head on. We also have to manage larva, and it takes Protoss a minute to completely remacro their army from their 50 Gateways (hi fOrU!) Just nerf Protoss and all their overpowered tech because all their players have to do is sit at the keyboard and roll their face over the hotkeys to win. This just isn't right. I've even seen a game where a Protoss managed to outexpand a Zerg! There isn't even a logical explanation for that. What mobility?
On August 23 2008 02:59 Chill wrote: I'll answer that, even though I don't play Protoss. There are certain ZvP timings you have to get used to; tell yourself when you're going to be moving out or staying defensive. I think the problem might be that you haven't gotten used to playing defensively at certain points and aggressively at others. I do think how you do this basically shapes your success at ZvP. You can't mindlessly a-move units out (though I often advocate that) because you'll get cut up by storms and cannons. During TSL this is how I became a fairly decent ZvT player, and I think it's some advice that anyone can apply to the game. Yep the main thing to remember here is to play defensively with Lurkers, treat your Scourge like they're a Prince of Dubai, they are that important! Use the LurkerLing combination to defend; Scourge take care of his Observers. The key is not to leave any part of your army isolated... I honestly do think that when a Zerg army can flank it's the strongest army in the game, but I mean if you screw up and go noob town on it and things come in piecemeal (spelling?) then that's obviously not going to work. It's just called basic micro and tactics. -_- I think this should let you move to the late game, where Ultras can bel enough to finish him with simple UltraLing. But remember you really cannot be a simple, mindless air head with UltraLing in modern ZvP; use Defilers!
Do you fucking get it now??
note: I guess they will ignore my post too. AND THAT IS FUNNY AS HELL. xDDD
I'm glad I decided to read the thread before replying, making me one of the cool kids in this case, but lets be honest, is there anyone who reads all threads every time before replying? I gotta say at least 50% of the time I just read the op and the five last posts before replying.
On the other hand, if you read the last few posts, usually there's someone who points out the joke. The stupid people are the ones who only read the OP then reply, with no regard to whether there's some else up or, for more general purpose, if what they're saying has already been said.
exactly... there is a LOT of people that simply reply by saying "I didnt read the thread but i think..." and they think that excuses them... you should AT least read the 1st page and the last page... I mean AT LEAST to know how the conversation is going but nope, they wont... I assure you some other kids are going to fall for this again... :D
On November 07 2009 06:50 TheAntZ wrote: Never have I seen a single person on these forums who thought sc was truly balanced gonna go out on a limb here and say everyone reading has felt sc is imbalanced at some point give it some thought though, you never hear that much bitching about it at pro level do you? you think its imbalanced because its harder to learn to play VS protoss then to learn to play protoss. up till now in the pro scene zvp balance has fluctuated pretty hard because of shifts in metagame never at any point was it clearly Z=P, because both races found new ways to dick each other gonna be P>Z again at some point, after Protoss figures out a good way to counter 5 hatch hydra let it lie for now though, as it is its not TOO imbalanced...just kinda tipped to one side you have to consider, as a protoss, that some of your templar are gonna die by getting shot down to mutas no matter WHAT, so you need extra ones, which is the core of the imbalance.
oh thats beautiful
oh, I give up.
i searched the entire thread and didnt see posts by you what are you talking about D:
On August 23 2008 02:42 Hot_Bid wrote: lol it's always been ZvP imbalance except for Bisu and Free, i bet they chill with each other singing it's just the two of us, we can pvz if we try, just the two of us building corsairs in the sky
edit: will ignorant lower level SCplayers mock imbalance till hell?
answer: always
Bisu complains about how hard PvZ is a lot. He finds it comfortable, not easy. Ask Stork about how much he complains.
I believe match-up imbalances exist very slightly but the imbalances favor a different race at different skill levels. The maps play a bigger role for sure but there are many more factors at play. If I had time, I could take an average of all the map statistics on ICCUP (forgetting about EXTREMELY imbalnced maps like Battle Royale), from thousands and thousands of games, and I can safely assume that the percentages are going to show a favor to one race in a MU. And I am pretty sure it is not gonna be 51-49% difference. Not much bigger than that, but bigger nonetheless.
If it was possible, we could split that number between different skill levels and we'd see some interesting trends. Anyone who believes Starcraft is perfectly balanced is a disillusioned fool. It is balanced enough for all 3 races to be able to compete with each other on a strong, near equal, footing. I do believe that. But Starcraft is not PERFECTLY balanced.
Also, OP is a troll. Just wanted to share my opinion.
Are you in tears ? protoss is so easy! you should play them and make 8 corsairs or so and then kill the scourges. dunno if you will win but its easy race so i guess you will!
The funny thing about this thread is people bumping this thread saying shit like "Who revived this thread!" and "lol at the people who post in this thread", etc. The hypocrisy is too much.
Awesome, another fool for an OP. Seriously guy claims to be C yet can't beat a D-, then makes a thread expecting sympathy or something when in truth he clearly isnt good and just full of himself. Gotta love that people like Chill try to come in and have a rational discussion, yet the idiot posters love to just ignore what's being said and repeat there own moronic arguments. Its even worse with all the new people now coming in, or, even better the people that try to fix SC2 yet dont even have the darn game. Anyway I digress. Going back to the OP, due really needs to accept hes bad and people, regardless of whether they are Protoss or not, are going to destroy him. I sincerely hope that he was just raging from a bad ICCUP day and that he doesn't really believe what he wrote. Still, its a pretty moronic post, especially for something that isn't a blog.I mean, this is a guy who think that Templars and Corsairs should be removed from StarCraft. I mean thats just plain stupid Its not like removing templar would totally alter PvP and change the balance of PvT or anything. A person really needs to give more thought to his posts before he puts up bullshit like this that no serious broodwar player would even fathom. Removing Templar! Thats just fucking dumb Why not post some more shit Gaetele; I'd love to tear more of your worthless rants apart.
Lol, did noone notice the 300 reference by AcrossFiveJulys?
this thread got out of hand really fast... I didn't bother reading the whole thing but i find it funny that BW is in a similar state right now, except now protoss is unfavored. mutalisks constantly sniping ht's is madness! I guess the logical thing for protosses to do at this point is ask themselves, is this really madness? or is there a light at the end of the tunnel for protoss? new strategies might be able to fix this situation: bisu did it once, but we need another hero is innovate a new zerg killing strategy.
Is the DA the answer to the PvZ situation? I say no. We would be better off taking a lesson from Sparta. We NEED discipline, we NEED to train and devote our entire existence to beating zerg... with a little (scrap that, a lot) of patience, hard work, and ingenuity we can do this... I'm just trying to prove a point here: we shouldn't blame the game. No, obviously we will need to augment our perspective: like a storm we can take PvZ back! Let's do this!
Match up wise, I agree with others, Z>P. If they get mass sair, you have to get spore colonies (even check proleague) and manage your hydra/overlords well to not lose too many. However, if they are doing MASS sair you will realize that their ground army is significantly weak or they have relatively no probes. Your strategy should always be to counter what they are doing, so pure hydra counters @ his natural or prevent his third, while with a few @ your expos and sufficient spore/sunken colonies (defending reaver+sair if they go with this combo).
Realistically if you are C you should be at least C- in all matchups, or you need to play more of the other matchups to bring all your matchups to the same level... Getting to C or C- without playing any protoss means that its possible that a D- protoss ( i have no clue how he beat you) could win.
Game is not imbalanced in anyway, but some build orders counter other build orders directly (not imba, just translates to your decision making and what you have scouted)
On April 13 2010 11:58 dRaW wrote: Match up wise, I agree with others, Z>P. If they get mass sair, you have to get spore colonies (even check proleague) and manage your hydra/overlords well to not lose too many. However, if they are doing MASS sair you will realize that their ground army is significantly weak or they have relatively no probes. Your strategy should always be to counter what they are doing, so pure hydra counters @ his natural or prevent his third, while with a few @ your expos and sufficient spore/sunken colonies (defending reaver+sair if they go with this combo).
Realistically if you are C you should be at least C- in all matchups, or you need to play more of the other matchups to bring all your matchups to the same level... Getting to C or C- without playing any protoss means that its possible that a D- protoss ( i have no clue how he beat you) could win.
Game is not imbalanced in anyway, but some build orders counter other build orders directly (not imba, just translates to your decision making and what you have scouted)
I'm looking for a hidden message in this post and i just can't find one :\
EPT
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I'd even say it must be as high as pro level to be called balanced. This is because there are almost no really successful foreigner Terrans; the best have always been Zerg and (especially since recent times) Protoss. Seeing that T is the hardest race when it comes to multitasking, it's not surprising why.
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