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Liquipedia Strategic Q&A - Episode II
November 3rd, 2009 09:02 GMT
Banner by SilverskYHopin' for a Revolution
The Making of Modern PvZ
Liquipedia Strategic Q&A
Monday, 9th of November, 3.00 KST
Sunday, 8th of November, 19.00 CET
Sunday, 8th of November, 10.00 PST
Outline
It's almost getting stale: Complaints about this matchup have been numerous in the weeks passed, and no solid judgement has yet been reached. Protoss are sparse in the OSL Ro16, but even fewer Terrans have made it through.
We won't talk about Imbalance, much. But we will analyse the implications of the 3 Base Spire into 5 hatch Hydra Build Order that is causing Protoss so much mischief and be looking into possible causes and solutions.
PreparationAs customary, we will have a set of games to watch beforehand and which we'll analyse live on stage. These are: July vs. BeSt, Game 3 on AndromedaNot the first usage ever, but the moment when the build mentioned inevitably surfaced in all its strength.+ Show Spoiler [The VOD] +Bisu vs. Shine, Game 3 on Heartbreak RidgeParadigmatic display of Protoss not doing many mistakes, but succumbing to the Templar sniping.+ Show Spoiler [The VOD] +BackHo vs. Calm, Game 1 on Eye of the StormWho would have thought some hope would come from Backho ? But he takes a game off Calm with great DT usage.+ Show Spoiler [The VOD] +
More Show
But we have more: A showmatch will be played afterwards, to settle the score between Aiur and the Zerg. The protagonists will be:
We will try to provide 3rd person commentary and two seperate FPview streams from the players involved.
Got Questions?
To cover your needs, we need your questions. Ask them in the strategy forum thread.
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PM a Liquipedia Staff Member: Aesop, Pholon, Imperator, mikeymoo, GHOSTCLAW, cgrinker
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Awesome pick and topic, especially the people discussing it, although I disagree with the games being picked to discuss the topic, Backhos build is terrible and would die to any other build or even cutting some drones to get some hydra, its a timing attack that will only work once vs anyone, + the July/Best game is extremely outdated when discussing 3 hat spire to 5hat hydra, a lot more recent games would do better in presenting the topic/build.
FakeSteve Edit: DustBowl's dick is hard
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United States44450 Posts
Yeah. BackHo vs Calm was just classic BackHo fail. Calm held off the first dt break the way every competent zerg will and was then like "ok, now he'll transition into ht because he's not an idiot so I'll transition with him". Which of course completely missed the point that BackHo never, ever, changes his build based upon what's actually going on in the game. He rolled his build order dice and it said dt.
It didn't work because the build was good. The build was trying to break the first few hydra and get a dt into the main and it completely failed at that. Overlord speed plus a decent wall rapes it. It worked because Calm was doing 4th level thinking whereas BackHo is incapable of anything beyond 1st.
The mass dt into breaking a part of the zerg defence and then creating more fronts with dts than he can handle is a build I am familiar with. The first attack needs to succeed for the build to work because then the dt that gets into his main can start distracting him and then his hydra start moving around and holes appear in his defence and the dts start ninjaing in through the gaps, both in his actual defences and also his attention. Once the first attack fails to break into his main the build has failed, pure and simple. Calm knew this and knew BackHo 'had' to transition into standard play. BackHo may have known this, it's unclear because being BackHo it wouldn't matter if he knew it or not, he still wouldn't change.
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51712 Posts
Holy crap, not only DUAL FPVODS but THE RETURN OF NONY?
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On November 03 2009 18:51 KwarK wrote:
Yeah. BackHo vs Calm was just classic BackHo fail. Calm held off the first dt break the way every competent zerg will and was then like "ok, now he'll transition into ht because he's not an idiot so I'll transition with him". Which of course completely missed the point that BackHo never, ever, changes his build based upon what's actually going on in the game. He rolled his build order dice and it said dt.
It didn't work because the build was good. The build was trying to break the first few hydra and get a dt into the main and it completely failed at that. Overlord speed plus a decent wall rapes it. It worked because Calm was doing 4th level thinking whereas BackHo is incapable of anything beyond 1st.
The mass dt into breaking a part of the zerg defence and then creating more fronts with dts than he can handle is a build I am familiar with. The first attack needs to succeed for the build to work because then the dt that gets into his main can start distracting him and then his hydra start moving around and holes appear in his defence and the dts start ninjaing in through the gaps, both in his actual defences and also his attention. Once the first attack fails to break into his main the build has failed, pure and simple. Calm knew this and knew BackHo 'had' to transition into standard play. BackHo may have known this, it's unclear because being BackHo it wouldn't matter if he knew it or not, he still wouldn't change.
Another fact that indicated that it was an all in was the wall. Calm saw the wall which only let zealots out so he expected standard reaver/sair(well I thought he was going reaver/sair I dont know about calm) or a speedlot build, but then Backho used that really messed up timing push at a weird timing to counter Calm's drone whoring and then continued rallying stuff all over till he won with the mass drone kills.
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Hungary11305 Posts
We might be switching the example games according to your suggestions. Stay tuned.
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lol.
love "the return of the nony" :D
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Awesome experts and showmatch, looking forward to it!
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This is great, can't wait. Good job! 
And of course, I hope there will be FPVOD's, VOD's and mp3's of this chit-chat-playing session.
Thanks!
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Stork's sair/reaver could be tekd into consideration?
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United States17042 Posts
On November 03 2009 23:16 Inzek wrote:
Stork's sair/reaver could be tekd into consideration?
many of stork's sair reaver games happened before 3 hat spire into 5 hat hydra was common. Even worse, most zergs didn't know about the build. However, there are example games of stork where he goes sair reaver against 3 hat spire into 5 hat hydra, although I don't remember any particularly memorable games where stork won against that zerg bo without the zerg making some sort of mistake earlier.
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Wow, this looks like it's going to be awesome. Great choice of topic too.
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I think the Best vs. July game should certainly be kept as an example. It provides an overview of the beginnings of the mentality of the 3 hatch muta into 5 hatch hydra and complies what would happen if the build continued on into "ULTRA"- (see what I did there?) late game. This provides some history as to why the MU is where it is now and how we've shifted from an era of such Protoss dominance to the modern meta-game. Conversely, I believe July's style is SO personalized that trying to analyze the vast majority of his builds is a waste when considered from a meta-game analytical standpoint. I mean, the man hidden proxy hatched in a zvz, he's not exactly "sane".
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This is awesome! I look forward to this.
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holy crap this will be good. sounds record the stream and sound :O
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8751 Posts
On November 04 2009 01:15 motbob wrote:You really need to have  GosI[Flying] vs  great as one of the example games. I watched that game and thought, "Oh, that's how you play pro-level PvZ." I don't think Backho vs Calm is a good game to use as an example of the state of the matchup today or in the future, but flying vs great seems to me to be an indicator of things to come.
I will check out this game.
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Best lineup that can be expected, so looks good.
Although I don't expect anything particularly revealing. There will be talk about maps and general strategy. But each game in itself is an individual entity and just come down to every little decision aggregated. If a zerg like effort has their build down tight you must have your build down equally optimized to have a chance. And I suspect that is the main problem -- whether DA or sairs or whatever, toss don't have their builds down as tight, at least partly because their builds are more complex than zergs. Zergs build plan is very straight forward as to what you need to do exactly (pverpool => 3hat gas => lair, spire, speed, +lings if needed => add 2hat, scourge, den, evo, +sunk if needed => muta or hydra) while toss try many different things.
Also watching vods is like watching half a game.
Effort vs jaystar from ief is a recent replay. Great display of the build and a one sided zerg win.
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We will try to provide 3rd person commentary and two seperate FPview streams from the players involved.
this is especially awesome, imo
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Wow, im totally hyped about this, and I dont play PvZ. Please let there be mp3 downloads available so I can tune in.
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