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Renamed To ASL20 General Discussion. WARNING: Contains Spoilers | ||
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mtcn77
Turkey407 Posts
On September 03 2025 02:23 Ideas wrote: I feel like since Ro16 has Bo3s there's a far lower chance for true to succeed than in Ro24. But who knows. Oh, you are right. One wrong step and he is back in the preliminaries. What ever, I hope he isn't short on build orders. I seriously cannot see him lasting more than 5 minutes with Best. Best plays like prime Stork these days. | ||
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oxKnu
1183 Posts
Absolute shame Mini and Snow have to fight it out in that group. I think these maps are really good for them and they are the strongest P's in this tournament due to the distribution of the Top16(a lot of Z, then T, then very few P). | ||
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RJBTVYOUTUBE
Netherlands935 Posts
On September 03 2025 02:41 polgas wrote: I think these are all well-balanced groups with lots of ASL winners and finalists (11/16). Nothing like last season's stacked group of Snow, Rush, Mini and hero. Jaedong has a good chance to get through to Ro8. He can out-micro Snow and Mini and should be ok with Sharp. Speed can probably upset someone in his group. SnOw's Micro is better than Jaedong's. Jaedong's going to have to rely on map advantages and decisiveness. ![[image loading]](https://i.imgur.com/pOSA8fr.png) | ||
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polgas
Canada1755 Posts
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BLinD-RawR
ALLEYCAT BLUES50245 Posts
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RJBTVYOUTUBE
Netherlands935 Posts
On September 03 2025 12:10 BLinD-RawR wrote: Jaedong's biggest advantage is that he's in a group where he has the mental edge, everyone else has choked mega hard over the years. idk if calling SnOw losing ONLY to Soulkey for the past 3 seasons, in quarter or Semi, counts as choking mega hard. Specifically considering the mental aspect was exactly Jaedong's weakness in the past ten seasons. If anything Jaedong might not have the mental edge. It is too early to call. | ||
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Postaljester_
30 Posts
On September 03 2025 06:03 oxKnu wrote: That's a phenomenal group for Bisu. hsi PvP is actually the only matchup where he's not lost an extra step and is secretly Best's worst matchup by a mile these days. The maps are ok against Z's for P this season. I have Queen and Bisu coming through in that group. Absolute shame Mini and Snow have to fight it out in that group. I think these maps are really good for them and they are the strongest P's in this tournament due to the distribution of the Top16(a lot of Z, then T, then very few P). I am wondering why you think this map pool is good for pvz? I hear artosis say this but not why. When I look at the numbers for high level matches ( asl pl KCM) p has no winning maps atm. | ||
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ScoutWBF
Germany608 Posts
Wouldn't be surprised to see Top 4 all Zergs. | ||
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mtcn77
Turkey407 Posts
On September 03 2025 22:03 Postaljester_ wrote: I am wondering why you think this map pool is good for pvz? I hear artosis say this but not why. When I look at the numbers for high level matches ( asl pl KCM) p has no winning maps atm. It only takes 15 minutes from gamestart for him to backtrack on his words. | ||
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Shinokuki
United States876 Posts
On September 03 2025 22:03 Postaljester_ wrote: I am wondering why you think this map pool is good for pvz? I hear artosis say this but not why. When I look at the numbers for high level matches ( asl pl KCM) p has no winning maps atm. The maps aint that good for zergs.. espeially knockout and the island map. Nowadays zergs usually win via hydra bust or ling runbys. If they can't pull that out well they have to go standard and P usually wins if it goes standard. Zerg always "has" to do something to pull ahead or beat with all semi all-in strats. This is what soma has been complaining years. Y'll just don't see it. Now compare it to non-pro zvps where doing these semi all in strats are extremely hard to pull in maps that basically guarantee perfect simcity for Ps and they give you 1v1 spots for zlot vs lings. | ||
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RJBTVYOUTUBE
Netherlands935 Posts
On September 04 2025 05:19 Shinokuki wrote: The maps aint that good for zergs.. espeially knockout and the island map. Nowadays zergs usually win via hydra bust or ling runbys. If they can't pull that out well they have to go standard and P usually wins if it goes standard. Zerg always "has" to do something to pull ahead or beat with all semi all-in strats. This is what soma has been complaining years. Y'll just don't see it. Now compare it to non-pro zvps where doing these semi all in strats are extremely hard to pull in maps that basically guarantee perfect simcity for Ps and they give you 1v1 spots for zlot vs lings. Knockout is good for zerg though. Very good terrain for lurkers and chokepointing. | ||
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goody153
44171 Posts
On September 03 2025 23:22 ScoutWBF wrote: Terran and Protoss are both getting absolutely destroyed by Zerg in KCM race wars right now. Wouldn't be surprised to see Top 4 all Zergs. Oh yeah but i'm still hoping we get a more balanced final 8 and final 4 with consideration of tournament form. Sometimes players can get smashed in online matches and ladder but show up in the tournament proper and vice versa Not only for this broodwar but even other esports too it is not an uncommon occurance | ||
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oxKnu
1183 Posts
On September 03 2025 22:03 Postaljester_ wrote: I am wondering why you think this map pool is good for pvz? I hear artosis say this but not why. When I look at the numbers for high level matches ( asl pl KCM) p has no winning maps atm. Generally, maps that allow for safe thirds or allow for air-play favor Protoss a bit over Zerg. So the remark mainly means that these type of seasons are good chances for Protoss to advance far in the tournament. The map-pool is overall diverse enough, so I don't think it's a big deal but I remember the seasons with FS/CB clones where P was clearly the most disadvantaged race in the field. Artosis says a lot of bullshit when he talks about Protoss. | ||
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Shinokuki
United States876 Posts
On September 04 2025 19:12 RJBTVYOUTUBE wrote: Knockout is good for zerg though. Very good terrain for lurkers and chokepointing. Again, soma negated that by saying it's hard to even get to that kinda spot in the first place. The negation of 973 hydra and 1v1 zlot vs ling gaps in many expos make the match up so much harder for zvp. To further support this. As of right now 9/4/2025, it's sitting at 49.4% win rate for zvp and that's with top tier zergs such as soulkey, soma, queen, jd, and larva all overperforming. Can you imagine zvp being less than 50% in this day and age where every maps are like easily 53%+. There is a reason why soma hates to play on this map. He also said Litmus is a map where you force the z to go all in because if it goes mid/late game it's usually a loss. This was a good map for zerg but mapmakers made it hard for zergs to do a ling run by at the back-end. Let's not even mention the island map. Another 48% win rate for zvp. The only good map for zvp is polestar, sitting in at 52.3% but zvt is at 40%. Once again, maps are not that good for zergs this season. I can't even imagine what non-pro zergs have to do when all pro zergs are relying on hydra busts/ling-allins to pull their wins. Source is from eloboard.com map stats btw. | ||
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Graphex
United States122 Posts
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RJBTVYOUTUBE
Netherlands935 Posts
On September 05 2025 08:49 Shinokuki wrote: Again, soma negated that by saying it's hard to even get to that kinda spot in the first place. The negation of 973 hydra and 1v1 zlot vs ling gaps in many expos make the match up so much harder for zvp. To further support this. As of right now 9/4/2025, it's sitting at 49.4% win rate for zvp and that's with top tier zergs such as soulkey, soma, queen, jd, and larva all overperforming. Can you imagine zvp being less than 50% in this day and age where every maps are like easily 53%+. There is a reason why soma hates to play on this map. He also said Litmus is a map where you force the z to go all in because if it goes mid/late game it's usually a loss. This was a good map for zerg but mapmakers made it hard for zergs to do a ling run by at the back-end. Let's not even mention the island map. Another 48% win rate for zvp. The only good map for zvp is polestar, sitting in at 52.3% but zvt is at 40%. Once again, maps are not that good for zergs this season. I can't even imagine what non-pro zergs have to do when all pro zergs are relying on hydra busts/ling-allins to pull their wins. Source is from eloboard.com map stats btw. Soma on knockout: 6-6 vs p 15-6 vs t Action: 2-0 vs P 2-4 vs T Queen: 10-6 vs P 10-19 vs T Effort: 6-2 vs P 4-4 vs T Larva: (feels like some data is missing for larva....) 2-3 vs P 0-2 vs T Jaedong: 6-4 vs P 7-3 vs T Hero: 3-5 vs P 5-6 vs T Soulkey: 5-9 vs P 7-3 vs T Total: 38-35 vs P 50-47 vs T Marginally Zerg favored amongst top zergs. | ||
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Shinokuki
United States876 Posts
On September 05 2025 10:27 RJBTVYOUTUBE wrote: Soma on knockout: 6-6 vs p 15-6 vs t Action: 2-0 vs P 2-4 vs T Queen: 10-6 vs P 10-19 vs T Effort: 6-2 vs P 4-4 vs T Larva: (feels like some data is missing for larva....) 2-3 vs P 0-2 vs T Jaedong: 6-4 vs P 7-3 vs T Hero: 3-5 vs P 5-6 vs T Soulkey: 5-9 vs P 7-3 vs T Total: 38-35 vs P 50-47 vs T Marginally Zerg favored amongst top zergs. Wow that’s crazy underperforming given that these are supposed to be killers.. I also love how you brought up effort to make this stats in favor of your argument. Effort is borderline god tier participating in K league lmao. He plays against people worse than shuttle like tulbo. I can't even take this seriously and I'm not sure what you're arguing when all z pros are kinda dissatisfied with state of the maps for zvp. | ||
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Bonyth
Poland569 Posts
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Shinokuki
United States876 Posts
On September 05 2025 14:57 Bonyth wrote: imagine having a 49,4% zvp win rate and complaining about balance, because SOMA says so. If he says so, he must be right. If Stork will say that this map is heavily P favored, I will believe that. When a zerg user complains about his own race, it doesn't have much weight. I trust soma, queen, soulkey more than anyone for zerg takes because they have played these maps the most and looked for ways to abuse and win vs protoss. I ain't trusting anyone like stork, shuttle, or even you (non-pro). Not sure why you're bringing up stork. He's washed. I don't see any same complaints from other protoss because it's pretty easy for them to beat zerg in a straight up standard game but lose because of their own mistakes (i.e early game ling busts or underestimating hydra busts). The same cannot be said for zergs when it literally feels like the maps are against them (bad simcity wall, 1v1 tight gap allowing for zlot to fight 1v1 vs lings, high ground advantage for p simcity on knockout to prevent 973?? LOL and wide chokepoints. The biggest one that's been in trend is the wide chokepoints which force zergs to go for heavy hydra lurk army and maneuvering around the map with 400+ apm to prevent goon/zlot/temp army going straight to z base at 12 min mark). It used to work when z was forced to adopt this style but as p got used to it, zergs focus so much on mineral optimization and look for ways to damage p early so that they can avoid straight up standard game. Take a look at all the zvps played by soma or queen in a bo9/bo13 vs snow/best/bisu. It's hard to beat P in a standard game... all the enhancements that map makers gave to protoss allow for protoss to get away with some greedy strats which snowball into p having faster tech and eco.. Even the bo9 that soma played vs snow.. soma won 4 games with either ling busts or hydra busts. Any games that went cleanly into standard.. soma lost. Also If ZvT was also at 50% zergs would be fine with that 49.4% zvp but zvt is at like sub 40%, putting zerg stats at around below 45%.. not sure what you're aruging here? Like zergs will accept 49% zvp if it means even 49% zvt.. Who am I to believe for map balance? Random foreigners like you or top tier pros who make living off on finding the best ways to win? | ||
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Vasoline73
United States7802 Posts
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