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On October 13 2007 06:04 Ace wrote:Show nested quote +On October 13 2007 05:58 TheTyranid wrote:
I have this suspition that Jaedong is getting overhyped.
He is. I like his ZvT but: 1.)His ZvT is not the same as Savior's level when Savior began dominating. Savior had a much much more dismantling style. Jaedong also has 2.) He has yet to play Hwasin in a series, and hasn't played Iris at all. Those are the top TvZ monsters besides Sea who does not play like either. When/if Jaedong beats these 2 then he'll truly be THE ZvT king. Right now Savior may not be his old self but he was a bigger threat because he massacred the top Terrans from the get go.
Yes everyone likes savior, I like savior. When he was at his prime no one could touch him. News flash, he isn't there right now. Jaedong deserves every bit of hype he is getting. His zvt IS the best right now. So you are right he hasn't played hwasin or iris, he is crushing everyone else. Savior didn't beat hwasin or iris the last time he played them.
Regardless, even if he doesn't royal road, even if he loses to hwasin or iris, Jaedong is still amazing. He wins games, he demolishes terrans and zergs, and he does it with style. Stop trying to steal his thunder just because he isn't what savior was when savior was dominating. No one is at that point, not even savior.
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Correct, its still hard to be a dominating figure unless you win ALL your mus consistently, otherwise you're a "one trick pony"
Dominating players in the past
Savior
Nada
Oov
Boxer
There were all good all rounders the only exception is boxer but that was his downfall in the end anyway.
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Russian Federation4333 Posts
I was just thinking of how Bisu could end up on the other side of the bracket from Jaedong. Bisu would have to loose to Shudder or Up. If he looses against lets say Up, Up will be 2-0. But then again there is the ZvT monster GGPlay who will be 2-1 when he beats both terrans. Then we have a 3 way 2-1 (chances that both GGPlay and Bisu will loose a game agains those Terrans are very low). Then they will pay a tie braker where Bisu will come out on top (most likely). The only sure way for Bisu to end up as A2 and on the other side of the bracket is if Up goes 3-0 (again the chances of that are minimal). GGplay is already 0-1.
It is pretty much inevitable for Jaedong to dodge Bisu or Stork.
I would conclude that he has no chance of winning this OSL.
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Do not underrestimate Up. Clearly, TvP is not his best matchup, but he has beaten Nal_rA and other good Protosses several times and was quite close to win his last clash against Bisu. Depending on the map he clearly has a chance. I'm not quite as sure about Shudder.
And I wouldn't bet on GGPlay winning against both Shudder and Up. He hasn't been looking quite the OSL winner lately.
But Jaedong isn't going to have a 'royal road' in the ro16/8. His chances of beating Stork or Bisu are very slim.
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I'm not confident his ZvT is the best right now, and want to see how well he does on hard maps for zerg vs top terrans who are practicing vs zerg for a week or more straight.
This is one of those times where the statistics are a bit too early despite being really good for him.
Obviously if he wins this league i'll definitely change my stance. I am just doubtful he could be far in the lead of ZvT when there's so many good zergs, and that Savior is probably still top but has had to play on some rougher maps.
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On October 13 2007 05:27 IdrA wrote:
bisu is the only person id take as a solid favorite over him, maybe stork. its just a matter of whether or not he has to face bisu.
nope, Stork can beat him, his ZvP is... i dunno, he just has no idea what hes doing for a pro.
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On October 13 2007 06:14 TheTyranid wrote:
Now given Iris's TvZ history he will be the underdog against Jaedong ( imo Iris's TvZ is very sloppy and he might choak as he did against GGPlay and Savior).
What!? Iris choked against GGplay and Savior? What games were you watching? Both of those series were INSANE. Iris put up a scary performance against both, it's not like he got utterly trashed except for one game which was the Silver ZvT build. Every other game was good.
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Jaedong's zvt is savior's level in his prime from all the games I've seen. But it's more aggressive, and his mutalisks attack just in the right places at the right time every game, his strong lair play is what helps him win.
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But yeah I think Jaedong will get raped by Stork or bisu DAMN
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On October 13 2007 06:24 bErAtEd- wrote:Show nested quote +On October 13 2007 06:04 Ace wrote:On October 13 2007 05:58 TheTyranid wrote:
I have this suspition that Jaedong is getting overhyped.
He is. I like his ZvT but: 1.)His ZvT is not the same as Savior's level when Savior began dominating. Savior had a much much more dismantling style. Jaedong also has 2.) He has yet to play Hwasin in a series, and hasn't played Iris at all. Those are the top TvZ monsters besides Sea who does not play like either. When/if Jaedong beats these 2 then he'll truly be THE ZvT king. Right now Savior may not be his old self but he was a bigger threat because he massacred the top Terrans from the get go. Yes everyone likes savior, I like savior. When he was at his prime no one could touch him. News flash, he isn't there right now. Jaedong deserves every bit of hype he is getting. His zvt IS the best right now. So you are right he hasn't played hwasin or iris, he is crushing everyone else. Savior didn't beat hwasin or iris the last time he played them. Regardless, even if he doesn't royal road, even if he loses to hwasin or iris, Jaedong is still amazing. He wins games, he demolishes terrans and zergs, and he does it with style. Stop trying to steal his thunder just because he isn't what savior was when savior was dominating. No one is at that point, not even savior.
no one is stealing his thunder. In fact I agreed that Jaedong is great at Zvt but he isn't at the level savior was. Get the cock out your mouth. thx.
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Russian Federation4333 Posts
On October 13 2007 07:40 Ace wrote:Show nested quote +On October 13 2007 06:14 TheTyranid wrote:
Now given Iris's TvZ history he will be the underdog against Jaedong ( imo Iris's TvZ is very sloppy and he might choak as he did against GGPlay and Savior).
What!? Iris choked against GGplay and Savior? What games were you watching? Both of those series were INSANE. Iris put up a scary performance against both, it's not like he got utterly trashed except for one game which was the Silver ZvT build. Every other game was good.
No he choaked. In game 3 against GGplay, Iris with a 2-0 was right at GGplays nat doorstep with MnM and Tanks thrashing his sunks.(I swear when he was seiging those sunks I knew GGPlay was going to loose. Iris had enought trops to just run into the nat and demolish it. But he chose to just sit there and wait for mutalisks to pop. That game kind of reminds me of game 5 GF vs July in Ever 2. When you are up 2-0 looking good to win game 3 and then get 2-3'ed, you choaked.
In the game against Savior Iris had like 3 control groups of mnm running into Saviors main with little defences. He then dropped each of Savior's nats 3 times or more. Savior's defence and overall play in that game was divine but Iris was still very sloppy with his drops. He was nervous (read: choaking)
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On October 13 2007 07:47 Ace wrote:Show nested quote +On October 13 2007 06:24 bErAtEd- wrote:On October 13 2007 06:04 Ace wrote:On October 13 2007 05:58 TheTyranid wrote:
I have this suspition that Jaedong is getting overhyped.
He is. I like his ZvT but: 1.)His ZvT is not the same as Savior's level when Savior began dominating. Savior had a much much more dismantling style. Jaedong also has 2.) He has yet to play Hwasin in a series, and hasn't played Iris at all. Those are the top TvZ monsters besides Sea who does not play like either. When/if Jaedong beats these 2 then he'll truly be THE ZvT king. Right now Savior may not be his old self but he was a bigger threat because he massacred the top Terrans from the get go. Yes everyone likes savior, I like savior. When he was at his prime no one could touch him. News flash, he isn't there right now. Jaedong deserves every bit of hype he is getting. His zvt IS the best right now. So you are right he hasn't played hwasin or iris, he is crushing everyone else. Savior didn't beat hwasin or iris the last time he played them. Regardless, even if he doesn't royal road, even if he loses to hwasin or iris, Jaedong is still amazing. He wins games, he demolishes terrans and zergs, and he does it with style. Stop trying to steal his thunder just because he isn't what savior was when savior was dominating. No one is at that point, not even savior. no one is stealing his thunder. In fact I agreed that Jaedong is great at Zvt but he isn't at the level savior was. Get the cock out your mouth. thx.
By saying he is overrated isn't taking away from what he has accomplished? I don't quite see that. Unless of course I've forgotten what overrated meant. I guess that could be the problem here. You can't base jaedong's success on the fact that he isn't as dominant as savior was. If savior was still completely trashing every player that he played at the moment then yes, I would say that you have a valid argument. Its not the case though. Saviors style of play isn't working right now. In the past 4 months he's 9-13 v T. I realize that savior often has to play the stiffest competition, but thats far from where he was.
Moreover, we are talking about one starleague. When savior was in his prime, he won four starleagues. You don't have to be that dominant to win, just ask casy.
On the topic of your last statement, I would appreciate it if you wouldn't be a total fuckin dick for no reason. I didn't trash you, I didn't say you were a fuckin idiot. I just simply stated that by saying that he is overrated you are overshadowing what he has accomplished. Grow up.
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Hong Kong20321 Posts
fuck in no way do i think iris choked in either iris vs ggplay@hitchiker or iris vs savior@neo arkanoid it was just ggplay and savior playing way better than iris iris already microed his troops to the max and was constantly trying to put more pressure on savior macroing a huge army moving out and trying to push in at every possible chance..
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United States7488 Posts
I have to agree with alffla here, GGPlay and Savior just stepped up when they needed to. Iris wasn't failing and would have easily stomped on any other zerg in those situations (except maybe Jaedong, but we'll have to wait and see about that one).
Iris came so close to defeating Savior, closer than any other terran had in a Bo5, and only barely managed not to take him down. As far as GGPlay and the OSL finals are concerned, I think Iris should have won, but GGPlay just got a sudden surge of strength and then the momentum kept his way once he got that surge.
Iris this year has shown that he can go toe-to-toe with the top ZvTers out there.
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I've never idolized a zerg player but I still think he's the man. I won't mind watching him tear up the competation
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Russian Federation4333 Posts
So you are saying that GGPlay was more clutch than Iris.
Ok i will rephrase that I said:
Iris would be the underdog against Jaedong because he is not very clutch in key matches (series vs. Savior and GGPlay)
This is actually a pointless argument. A Jaedong/Iris finals won't happen.
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On October 13 2007 08:32 Wasabi wrote:
Gah, I hate how the OSL winner seems so predictable recently. OSL is where one-trick ponies can shine and steal a starleague.
Lol? What evidence are you basing this on... GGPlay and Casy?
Or do you like the MSL more, where one player dominates for ~3 seasons straight?
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EPT
