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Russian Federation4333 Posts
On October 13 2007 08:01 bErAtEd- wrote:Show nested quote +On October 13 2007 07:47 Ace wrote:On October 13 2007 06:24 bErAtEd- wrote:On October 13 2007 06:04 Ace wrote:On October 13 2007 05:58 TheTyranid wrote:
I have this suspition that Jaedong is getting overhyped.
He is. I like his ZvT but: 1.)His ZvT is not the same as Savior's level when Savior began dominating. Savior had a much much more dismantling style. Jaedong also has 2.) He has yet to play Hwasin in a series, and hasn't played Iris at all. Those are the top TvZ monsters besides Sea who does not play like either. When/if Jaedong beats these 2 then he'll truly be THE ZvT king. Right now Savior may not be his old self but he was a bigger threat because he massacred the top Terrans from the get go. Yes everyone likes savior, I like savior. When he was at his prime no one could touch him. News flash, he isn't there right now. Jaedong deserves every bit of hype he is getting. His zvt IS the best right now. So you are right he hasn't played hwasin or iris, he is crushing everyone else. Savior didn't beat hwasin or iris the last time he played them. Regardless, even if he doesn't royal road, even if he loses to hwasin or iris, Jaedong is still amazing. He wins games, he demolishes terrans and zergs, and he does it with style. Stop trying to steal his thunder just because he isn't what savior was when savior was dominating. No one is at that point, not even savior. no one is stealing his thunder. In fact I agreed that Jaedong is great at Zvt but he isn't at the level savior was. Get the cock out your mouth. thx. By saying he is overrated isn't taking away from what he has accomplished? I don't quite see that. Unless of course I've forgotten what overrated meant. I guess that could be the problem here. You can't base jaedong's success on the fact that he isn't as dominant as savior was. If savior was still completely trashing every player that he played at the moment then yes, I would say that you have a valid argument. Its not the case though. Saviors style of play isn't working right now. In the past 4 months he's 9-13 v T. I realize that savior often has to play the stiffest competition, but thats far from where he was. Moreover, we are talking about one starleague. When savior was in his prime, he won four starleagues. You don't have to be that dominant to win, just ask casy. On the topic of your last statement, I would appreciate it if you wouldn't be a total fuckin dick for no reason. I didn't trash you, I didn't say you were a fuckin idiot. I just simply stated that by saying that he is overrated you are overshadowing what he has accomplished. Grow up.
To be honest Jaedong hasn't accomplished much. He has great success in Proleague and helped Lecaf become a powerhouse but in SL he hasn't done anything except getting ONE qualification.
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On October 13 2007 08:45 TheTyranid wrote:Show nested quote +On October 13 2007 08:01 bErAtEd- wrote:On October 13 2007 07:47 Ace wrote:On October 13 2007 06:24 bErAtEd- wrote:On October 13 2007 06:04 Ace wrote:On October 13 2007 05:58 TheTyranid wrote:
I have this suspition that Jaedong is getting overhyped.
He is. I like his ZvT but: 1.)His ZvT is not the same as Savior's level when Savior began dominating. Savior had a much much more dismantling style. Jaedong also has 2.) He has yet to play Hwasin in a series, and hasn't played Iris at all. Those are the top TvZ monsters besides Sea who does not play like either. When/if Jaedong beats these 2 then he'll truly be THE ZvT king. Right now Savior may not be his old self but he was a bigger threat because he massacred the top Terrans from the get go. Yes everyone likes savior, I like savior. When he was at his prime no one could touch him. News flash, he isn't there right now. Jaedong deserves every bit of hype he is getting. His zvt IS the best right now. So you are right he hasn't played hwasin or iris, he is crushing everyone else. Savior didn't beat hwasin or iris the last time he played them. Regardless, even if he doesn't royal road, even if he loses to hwasin or iris, Jaedong is still amazing. He wins games, he demolishes terrans and zergs, and he does it with style. Stop trying to steal his thunder just because he isn't what savior was when savior was dominating. No one is at that point, not even savior. no one is stealing his thunder. In fact I agreed that Jaedong is great at Zvt but he isn't at the level savior was. Get the cock out your mouth. thx. By saying he is overrated isn't taking away from what he has accomplished? I don't quite see that. Unless of course I've forgotten what overrated meant. I guess that could be the problem here. You can't base jaedong's success on the fact that he isn't as dominant as savior was. If savior was still completely trashing every player that he played at the moment then yes, I would say that you have a valid argument. Its not the case though. Saviors style of play isn't working right now. In the past 4 months he's 9-13 v T. I realize that savior often has to play the stiffest competition, but thats far from where he was. Moreover, we are talking about one starleague. When savior was in his prime, he won four starleagues. You don't have to be that dominant to win, just ask casy. On the topic of your last statement, I would appreciate it if you wouldn't be a total fuckin dick for no reason. I didn't trash you, I didn't say you were a fuckin idiot. I just simply stated that by saying that he is overrated you are overshadowing what he has accomplished. Grow up. To be honest Jaedong hasn't accomplished much. He has great success in Proleague and helped Lecaf become a powerhouse but in SL he hasn't done anything except getting ONE qualification.
Well he really hasn't been playing for that long as a pro, he started around the 3rd/4th month of last year and has always been used in the proleague and the lecaf coaches seemed to have been trying to improve him, while his odt/survivor performances may be mediocre, he is a better player than when he started and has more chance to qualify for SL's now, if he can improve his Vs P, he will be a formidable opponent regardless of matchup.
Edit: What he needs is the experience of playing bo3/5 more vs better players.
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On October 13 2007 08:39 Wasabi wrote:Show nested quote +On October 13 2007 08:36 Jyvblamo wrote:On October 13 2007 08:32 Wasabi wrote:
Gah, I hate how the OSL winner seems so predictable recently. OSL is where one-trick ponies can shine and steal a starleague. Lol? What evidence are you basing this on... GGPlay and Casy? Or do you like the MSL more, where one player dominates for ~3 seasons straight? Yes, and when was the last time an MSL winner won because he has one good match-up? That's what I'm saying. So what if the same player keeps winning the MSL three times? Every player who has done so is good at all match-ups.
I don't think its fair to make generalizations about the patterns of OSL-winners based on just two examples. In fact, I'd say GGPlay is pretty solid in every match-up, with his ZvP maybe being sub-par only when compared to the likes of Savior or July. I'll concede that Casy is ridiculously bad at TvP, but hardly means the OSL is easy for 'one-trick ponies' to win in.
Also, you pretty much contradicted yourself when you said the OSL winners were predictable, then went to say that people could 'steal a starleague'.
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Braavos36379 Posts
I almost think the OSL creates map imbalance in favor of terran on purpose so that the Z's that qualify are the sick ZvT ones (just look at the lineup this season, savior/ggplay/july/jaedong), and this produces great games because mediocre terrans losing to great ZvT players is very entertaining
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On October 13 2007 09:55 Hot_Bid wrote:
I almost think the OSL creates map imbalance in favor of terran on purpose so that the Z's that qualify are the sick ZvT ones (just look at the lineup this season, savior/ggplay/july/jaedong), and this produces great games because mediocre terrans losing to great ZvT players is very entertaining
I definitly enjoy watching great zvt. Even though I play terran and like to see some nice tvz, brilliant zvt is much more entertaining and rewarding from a purely fan/spectator point of view.
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United States7488 Posts
ZvT is by far my favorite match to watch. Though I would trade a ZvT superstar or two per starleague in order for there to be less Terran players and more of both Protoss and Zerg, and therefore less TvT games. I'd be nice to see mirror match Bo3's and Bo5's more often that don't involve Terran. Kind of like last MSL I guess when all the Terrans died off quickly.
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Let's be fair to Casy, he's a 2 trick pony. His TvT was wicked good. If we're gonna talk about one trick ponies, I'm surprised Anytime wasn't mentioned. He DT'ed his way to an OSL title.
As for Jaedong, I think he's gonna win this OSL, not because he's the best player out there, but because OSL is always epic and has cool storylines. Last OSL with ggplay/Iris was storyline-lacking, which means this season must make up for it!
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Russian Federation4333 Posts
Wasabi you are saying that this OSL is full of Terrans therefore JD has a high chance of winning.
But you and othershave ignored my posts where i explained how JD will run into Bisu and be defeated.
It does not matter how many Terrans there are in the OSL. Jaedong will not dodge Bisu/Stork.
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United States20661 Posts
Last OSL was too much like an MSL. The deserving player won - that's not how it's supposed to be.
The FATED win OSL. There was no fate behind either Iris or GGPlay.
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On October 13 2007 10:57 Last Romantic wrote:
Last OSL was too much like an MSL. The deserving player won - that's not how it's supposed to be.
The FATED win OSL. There was no fate behind either Iris or GGPlay.
Well, you could say that Iris had some fate behind him, taking Savior to Game 5 in the previous season, and then beating him in a BO3 in the next season. Too bad he couldn't close out vs GGplay. :\ (Also cost me 8 liquibet points)
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GGplay deserved his OSL win.
Beating Hwasin, Flash and Iris in a row is not an easy feat. There was maybe a bit of Casy about his win since he didn't have to play a competent process, but you couldn't fault his ZvT.
If Jaedong can avoid Bisu, he'll go very far. I don't think his ZvP is good enough however to beat Bisu or event Stork in a bo3/bo5 series.]
Time will tell though!
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Russian Federation4333 Posts
On October 13 2007 11:19 RowdierBob wrote:
GGplay deserved his OSL win.
Beating Hwasin, Flash and Iris in a row is not an easy feat. There was maybe a bit of Casy about his win since he didn't have to play a competent process, but you couldn't fault his ZvT.
If Jaedong can avoid Bisu, he'll go very far. I don't think his ZvP is good enough however to beat Bisu or event Stork in a bo3/bo5 series.]
Time will tell though!
On October 13 2007 10:46 TheTyranid wrote:
Jaedong will not dodge Bisu/Stork.
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Jaedong is an exciting player, and brings an exciting ZvT too. Kewl dood go Jaedong :D.
A bit off topic, but I didn't know that was what Royal Road actually meant (Winning OSL in first appearance). So what is it called when a player has a chance to win both MSL and OSL in the same season? (Like when Savior failed to do so?)
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Russian Federation4333 Posts
On October 13 2007 12:41 Wasabi wrote:Show nested quote +On October 13 2007 10:46 TheTyranid wrote:
Wasabi you are saying that this OSL is full of Terrans therefore JD has a high chance of winning.
But you and othershave ignored my posts where i explained how JD will run into Bisu and be defeated.
It does not matter how many Terrans there are in the OSL. Jaedong will not dodge Bisu/Stork. Doesn't matter? You are ignoring Jaedong's ZvP, which is weak. Let's say this OSL has a balanced race count instead of it having mostly Terran. If even Rock can beat him in a PvZ (that series was really bad, except for the last game, when Rock turned up a notch, and pummeled Jaedong like a b.net pubbie), I very much doubt his chances of advancing to OSL. Now if he can improve his ZvP as quickly as Iris did with his TvZ, then he could have a chance against the Protoss in this OSL, Bisu in particular. The last time he won against a Protoss is against SoO. If you look at his OSC wins, which was his ticket to this OSL, it was ALL but one match (one ZvZ) against Terrans, and lost to the only Protoss he met. What make you think he can get past the best PvZ player right now?
I don't know why you even mentioned Rock. Look at my post on page 1. Jaedong will probably meet either bisu or Stork. Rock has nothing to do with this. To be honest your post doesnt make a lot of sence.
You sound like you are defending Jaedong but at the same time criticizing his ZvP.
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Russian Federation4333 Posts
On October 13 2007 13:16 Wasabi wrote:
You are saying that Jaedong has to play Stork and Bisu. I'm only talking about how he can't advance to OSL if he meets one of them especially Bisu, and that he has good ZvT. So if we agree on this then there's no point you should have replied to anything I said because that's what I've been saying about Jaedong, and his ZvT joyride to his OSL win.
An OSL full of T and Z but not this OSL because he most likely will play Bisu/Stork.
edit: Oh and please stop talking about Casy and GGPlay "STEALING" OSL's. That type of logic just drives me mad.
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Braavos36379 Posts
First, let's get rid of the assumption that someone getting hot and winning an OSL off one matchup is necessary "stealing" one. If anyone watched GGPlay in Daum, his road was Stork, Casy, UpMagic, Hwasin Bo3, Flash Bo5, Iris Bo5. Yes they were close series but nobody doubts GGPlay's level of play in Daum was deserving of a Starleague. You can't fault him that he didn't get to play more P's than Stork. While his ZvP historically isn't great, we had no clue about GGPlay's ZvP level during that run. GGPlay's ZvT wasn't that great before the Daum season rolled around, he flamed out pretty easily in Shinhan3.
Second, stop talking as if Stork is a guarantee to beat Jaedong if they played. Stork's PvZ problems (5-5 last 10, 32-32 overall) are just as bad as Jaedong's ZvP ones (5-5 last 10, 14-15 overall). Everyone keeps forgetting Stork has just as bad a matchup yet everyone wouldn't say that he "stole" the GomTV2 MSL if he won vs Bisu right? Stork even got eliminated by Savior and reached the finals playing exclusively PvT. He basically only won ONLY PvT, losing his PvZ and PvP series. But I didn't see anyone making comments that Stork "lucked out" to get to the MSL finals.
(Example: Stork has to resort to cheesing Orion to advance in the MSL, and only won because Orion fucked up micro)
So everyone trying to bring down Jaedong because his ZvZ and ZvT are way above his ZvP, please shut up. Rarely does an OSL champ play all three matchups against good players in a single Starleague. Savior played only ZvT in Shinhan3, Nada didn't play TvZ in Shinhan2, Casy TvP in Shinhan1. People have weaknesses. Avoiding a certain matchup can be lucky, yes, but you can't fault a player for that. They only have 3 boX series in each OSL, its hard to have each one be a different race.
The only big favorite over Jaedong in a Bo3/Bo5 right now is Bisu. It's a tossup against Stork and Rock (regardless of what happened in OSC). He's also the only Zerg player right now who I'd give a 50% chance against Hwasin. He's just going to have to hope that a Terran or Stork can take out Bisu before he has to play him.
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EPT
