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United States7488 Posts
I was going to put this in the Jaedong is a monster thread in attempts to actually generate discussion/save the thread, but it was closed as I was typing. And I was I became genuinely interested in the topic and thought I should post it anyway.
Jaedong's ZvT is undoubtedly amazing. He is on a 12 game win streak in the matchup with his last loss being against Sea, in which he won that best-of-three. I don't think any terran is going to be able to stop him in this OSL.
As far as his other matchups go, his ZvZ has in the past been equally amazing (currently 74%), causing other proteams to alter their lineups in order to avoid a potential ZvZ game against Jaedong. July recently beat him in a Bo3 at WCG Korea, but he is in danger of not getting out of his group.
That leaves his unargueably worst match-up: ZvP. In his group he has to face Stork in week five, when he should already be 2-0 and locked for the quarterfinals. Whether he can beat Stork or not might not even matter at this point.
Assuming he advance to the quarterfinals, who is going to have the ability to take him down? In the quarters he won't have to face Stork, which only leaves two other Protoss players (and lets face it, Rock isn't getting out of the group stage). Will Bisu have to take him down, or will Bisu get eliminated before they face each other?
Who do you think is the most likely player to be able to take out Jaedong or is he going the distance?
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bisu eats all zergs alive (except july)
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bisu is the only person id take as a solid favorite over him, maybe stork. its just a matter of whether or not he has to face bisu.
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On October 13 2007 05:24 semioldguy wrote:
I was going to put this in the Jaedong is a monster thread in attempts to actually generate discussion/save the thread, but it was closed as I was typing. And I was I became genuinely interested in the topic and thought I should post it anyway.
Jaedong's ZvT is undoubtedly amazing. He is on a 12 game win streak in the matchup with his last loss being against Sea, in which he won that best-of-three. I don't think any terran is going to be able to stop him in this OSL.
As far as his other matchups go, his ZvZ has in the past been equally amazing (currently 74%), causing other proteams to alter their lineups in order to avoid a potential ZvZ game against Jaedong. July recently beat him in a Bo3 at WCG Korea, but he is in danger of not getting out of his group.
That leaves his unargueably worst match-up: ZvP. In his group he has to face Stork in week five, when he should already be 2-0 and locked for the quarterfinals. Whether he can beat Stork or not might not even matter at this point.
Assuming he advance to the quarterfinals, who is going to have the ability to take him down? In the quarters he won't have to face Stork, which only leaves two other Protoss players (and lets face it, Rock isn't getting out of the group stage). Will Bisu have to take him down, or will Bisu get eliminated before they face each other?
Who do you think is the most likely player to be able to take out Jaedong or is he going the distance?
Thanks for succeding where I failed. I guess I'm not allowed to post thoughts. =[
But in response to your thread, I think his chances of victory against anyone not named Bisu are very good. If Bisu is knocked out, I really like Jae's chances of taking gold.
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I'm thinking pretty much the same as the other three. If Jaedong plays Bisu he will get crushed.
The other two possibilites I am thinking of are Hwasin and Iris. I think Hwasin has about a 50% chance of winning in a bo3 or bo5. Iris maybe a little less.
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I honestly always loved Jeadong ZvT, but what I want is a good ZvPer to pwn all those protoss getting easy maps, or balanced maps, watever.
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Hong Kong20321 Posts
i love jaedong man
his name is cool
he looks cool
his zvt is cool as fuck
GOGO 이제동!!!!!!!!!!!
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what does royal road mean
Jaedong's ZvT is Savior circa 2006 level except more refined. As long as he is not at too much of a disadvantage by the time his mutalisks come out there is no terran that can beat him. I think Flash does have somewhat of a chance though, hope they meet in starleague
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Flash could take him out early but I don't think he could pull off a bo3 win if the games were longer and heads up.
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United States7488 Posts
On October 13 2007 05:53 zulu_nation8 wrote:
what does royal road mean
Walking the Royal Roal would refer to a player who becomes the champion in his first OSL appearance. For example, Savior took the title the first time he managed to qualify for the OSL.
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u gotta skate8152 Posts
On October 13 2007 05:53 zulu_nation8 wrote:
what does royal road mean
Winning OSL upon first entry.
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Russian Federation4333 Posts
I have this suspition that Jaedong is getting overhyped.
Lets try to guess how the Ro8 will be layed out.
Last OSL's advancing format:
A1 v C2
C1 v D2
B1 v A2
D1 v B2
Now bisu, already having beaten GGPlay, will most likely advance as A1. Jaedong, in group C will have to beat Stork to advance as C1 which I doubt. The chances of Jaedong meeting Bisu in Ro8 and therefore getting raped are pretty high.
If Jaedong does manage to beat Stork and advance as C1 he will play either Savior or Flash and has a good chance of advancing (Rock already lost to Flash and will probably loose to Savior thus getting 3'rd place). He will then face the winner of Bisu/Stork (oops!) in the semis. Doesn't look like a bright OSL for Jaedong.
edit: Jaedong needs to take some Protoss dodging lessons from Casy.
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On October 13 2007 05:58 TheTyranid wrote:
I have this suspition that Jaedong is getting overhyped.
He is. I like his ZvT but:
1.)His ZvT is not the same as Savior's level when Savior began dominating. Savior had a much much more dismantling style. Jaedong also has
2.) He has yet to play Hwasin in a series, and hasn't played Iris at all. Those are the top TvZ monsters besides Sea who does not play like either.
When/if Jaedong beats these 2 then he'll truly be THE ZvT king. Right now Savior may not be his old self but he was a bigger threat because he massacred the top Terrans from the get go.
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Even if he has been on a streak against Terrans, if he has to face a good one (Hwasin/Iris) in a best of 3 or 5, chances are that he might get knocked out. Add into the mix that if he faces a Protoss, he's pretty much screwed, and well... I'd put his odds at maybe 10% tops.
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thedeadhaji
39489 Posts
On October 13 2007 05:39 Polar wrote:
Thanks for succeding where I failed. I guess I'm not allowed to post thoughts. =[
There is nothing wrong with posting thoughts.
However, the same is not true for creating shitty threads.
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Jaedong has to either take a game from Stork, or pray to God that Bisu somehow loses a game in his group.
Also, he hasn't really proved himself in a BO5.
But his ZvT and ZvZ are art, so I hope he does royal road it, it would be cool to see 3 different zergs take home all 3 OSLs this year.
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Russian Federation4333 Posts
Ok just look aat the bracket format. Now I am pretty dam sure they will use the same one as last OSL. Jaedong will not face either Hwasin or Iris until the finals if Jaedong somehow miraculously gets past Bisu AND Stork who are on his side of the bracket.
Now given Iris's TvZ history he will be the underdog against Jaedong ( imo Iris's TvZ is very sloppy and he might choak as he did against GGPlay and Savior). Then again those are hive Zergs, which is Iris' weakness. I have no idea how he will handle a lair zerg in a Bo 5, but I would give JD a slight edge. Hwasin's TvZ is much better than Iris' but once again it is hard to tell how things will go.
What is ceratain is that Jaedong has VERY LITTLE chances of getting to that stage. I guarantee he will get face stomped by Bisu or Stork. His chance of meeting one of them in semi is almost certain.
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Live2Win
United States6657 Posts
On October 13 2007 05:39 Polar wrote:
Thanks for succeding where I failed. I guess I'm not allowed to post thoughts. =[
Yours was a shitty thread. His actually has some depth.
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I didn't have time to finish it because I was at work and had my boss talking my ear off about going fishing this weekened... In the future, I'll just wait, instead of being flamed to death.
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On October 13 2007 06:04 Ace wrote:Show nested quote +On October 13 2007 05:58 TheTyranid wrote:
I have this suspition that Jaedong is getting overhyped.
He is. I like his ZvT but: 1.)His ZvT is not the same as Savior's level when Savior began dominating. Savior had a much much more dismantling style. Jaedong also has 2.) He has yet to play Hwasin in a series, and hasn't played Iris at all. Those are the top TvZ monsters besides Sea who does not play like either. When/if Jaedong beats these 2 then he'll truly be THE ZvT king. Right now Savior may not be his old self but he was a bigger threat because he massacred the top Terrans from the get go.
Yes everyone likes savior, I like savior. When he was at his prime no one could touch him. News flash, he isn't there right now. Jaedong deserves every bit of hype he is getting. His zvt IS the best right now. So you are right he hasn't played hwasin or iris, he is crushing everyone else. Savior didn't beat hwasin or iris the last time he played them.
Regardless, even if he doesn't royal road, even if he loses to hwasin or iris, Jaedong is still amazing. He wins games, he demolishes terrans and zergs, and he does it with style. Stop trying to steal his thunder just because he isn't what savior was when savior was dominating. No one is at that point, not even savior.
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Correct, its still hard to be a dominating figure unless you win ALL your mus consistently, otherwise you're a "one trick pony"
Dominating players in the past
Savior
Nada
Oov
Boxer
There were all good all rounders the only exception is boxer but that was his downfall in the end anyway.
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Russian Federation4333 Posts
I was just thinking of how Bisu could end up on the other side of the bracket from Jaedong. Bisu would have to loose to Shudder or Up. If he looses against lets say Up, Up will be 2-0. But then again there is the ZvT monster GGPlay who will be 2-1 when he beats both terrans. Then we have a 3 way 2-1 (chances that both GGPlay and Bisu will loose a game agains those Terrans are very low). Then they will pay a tie braker where Bisu will come out on top (most likely). The only sure way for Bisu to end up as A2 and on the other side of the bracket is if Up goes 3-0 (again the chances of that are minimal). GGplay is already 0-1.
It is pretty much inevitable for Jaedong to dodge Bisu or Stork.
I would conclude that he has no chance of winning this OSL.
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Do not underrestimate Up. Clearly, TvP is not his best matchup, but he has beaten Nal_rA and other good Protosses several times and was quite close to win his last clash against Bisu. Depending on the map he clearly has a chance. I'm not quite as sure about Shudder.
And I wouldn't bet on GGPlay winning against both Shudder and Up. He hasn't been looking quite the OSL winner lately.
But Jaedong isn't going to have a 'royal road' in the ro16/8. His chances of beating Stork or Bisu are very slim.
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I'm not confident his ZvT is the best right now, and want to see how well he does on hard maps for zerg vs top terrans who are practicing vs zerg for a week or more straight.
This is one of those times where the statistics are a bit too early despite being really good for him.
Obviously if he wins this league i'll definitely change my stance. I am just doubtful he could be far in the lead of ZvT when there's so many good zergs, and that Savior is probably still top but has had to play on some rougher maps.
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On October 13 2007 05:27 IdrA wrote:
bisu is the only person id take as a solid favorite over him, maybe stork. its just a matter of whether or not he has to face bisu.
nope, Stork can beat him, his ZvP is... i dunno, he just has no idea what hes doing for a pro.
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On October 13 2007 06:14 TheTyranid wrote:
Now given Iris's TvZ history he will be the underdog against Jaedong ( imo Iris's TvZ is very sloppy and he might choak as he did against GGPlay and Savior).
What!? Iris choked against GGplay and Savior? What games were you watching? Both of those series were INSANE. Iris put up a scary performance against both, it's not like he got utterly trashed except for one game which was the Silver ZvT build. Every other game was good.
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Jaedong's zvt is savior's level in his prime from all the games I've seen. But it's more aggressive, and his mutalisks attack just in the right places at the right time every game, his strong lair play is what helps him win.
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But yeah I think Jaedong will get raped by Stork or bisu DAMN
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On October 13 2007 06:24 bErAtEd- wrote:Show nested quote +On October 13 2007 06:04 Ace wrote:On October 13 2007 05:58 TheTyranid wrote:
I have this suspition that Jaedong is getting overhyped.
He is. I like his ZvT but: 1.)His ZvT is not the same as Savior's level when Savior began dominating. Savior had a much much more dismantling style. Jaedong also has 2.) He has yet to play Hwasin in a series, and hasn't played Iris at all. Those are the top TvZ monsters besides Sea who does not play like either. When/if Jaedong beats these 2 then he'll truly be THE ZvT king. Right now Savior may not be his old self but he was a bigger threat because he massacred the top Terrans from the get go. Yes everyone likes savior, I like savior. When he was at his prime no one could touch him. News flash, he isn't there right now. Jaedong deserves every bit of hype he is getting. His zvt IS the best right now. So you are right he hasn't played hwasin or iris, he is crushing everyone else. Savior didn't beat hwasin or iris the last time he played them. Regardless, even if he doesn't royal road, even if he loses to hwasin or iris, Jaedong is still amazing. He wins games, he demolishes terrans and zergs, and he does it with style. Stop trying to steal his thunder just because he isn't what savior was when savior was dominating. No one is at that point, not even savior.
no one is stealing his thunder. In fact I agreed that Jaedong is great at Zvt but he isn't at the level savior was. Get the cock out your mouth. thx.
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Russian Federation4333 Posts
On October 13 2007 07:40 Ace wrote:Show nested quote +On October 13 2007 06:14 TheTyranid wrote:
Now given Iris's TvZ history he will be the underdog against Jaedong ( imo Iris's TvZ is very sloppy and he might choak as he did against GGPlay and Savior).
What!? Iris choked against GGplay and Savior? What games were you watching? Both of those series were INSANE. Iris put up a scary performance against both, it's not like he got utterly trashed except for one game which was the Silver ZvT build. Every other game was good.
No he choaked. In game 3 against GGplay, Iris with a 2-0 was right at GGplays nat doorstep with MnM and Tanks thrashing his sunks.(I swear when he was seiging those sunks I knew GGPlay was going to loose. Iris had enought trops to just run into the nat and demolish it. But he chose to just sit there and wait for mutalisks to pop. That game kind of reminds me of game 5 GF vs July in Ever 2. When you are up 2-0 looking good to win game 3 and then get 2-3'ed, you choaked.
In the game against Savior Iris had like 3 control groups of mnm running into Saviors main with little defences. He then dropped each of Savior's nats 3 times or more. Savior's defence and overall play in that game was divine but Iris was still very sloppy with his drops. He was nervous (read: choaking)
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On October 13 2007 07:47 Ace wrote:Show nested quote +On October 13 2007 06:24 bErAtEd- wrote:On October 13 2007 06:04 Ace wrote:On October 13 2007 05:58 TheTyranid wrote:
I have this suspition that Jaedong is getting overhyped.
He is. I like his ZvT but: 1.)His ZvT is not the same as Savior's level when Savior began dominating. Savior had a much much more dismantling style. Jaedong also has 2.) He has yet to play Hwasin in a series, and hasn't played Iris at all. Those are the top TvZ monsters besides Sea who does not play like either. When/if Jaedong beats these 2 then he'll truly be THE ZvT king. Right now Savior may not be his old self but he was a bigger threat because he massacred the top Terrans from the get go. Yes everyone likes savior, I like savior. When he was at his prime no one could touch him. News flash, he isn't there right now. Jaedong deserves every bit of hype he is getting. His zvt IS the best right now. So you are right he hasn't played hwasin or iris, he is crushing everyone else. Savior didn't beat hwasin or iris the last time he played them. Regardless, even if he doesn't royal road, even if he loses to hwasin or iris, Jaedong is still amazing. He wins games, he demolishes terrans and zergs, and he does it with style. Stop trying to steal his thunder just because he isn't what savior was when savior was dominating. No one is at that point, not even savior. no one is stealing his thunder. In fact I agreed that Jaedong is great at Zvt but he isn't at the level savior was. Get the cock out your mouth. thx.
By saying he is overrated isn't taking away from what he has accomplished? I don't quite see that. Unless of course I've forgotten what overrated meant. I guess that could be the problem here. You can't base jaedong's success on the fact that he isn't as dominant as savior was. If savior was still completely trashing every player that he played at the moment then yes, I would say that you have a valid argument. Its not the case though. Saviors style of play isn't working right now. In the past 4 months he's 9-13 v T. I realize that savior often has to play the stiffest competition, but thats far from where he was.
Moreover, we are talking about one starleague. When savior was in his prime, he won four starleagues. You don't have to be that dominant to win, just ask casy.
On the topic of your last statement, I would appreciate it if you wouldn't be a total fuckin dick for no reason. I didn't trash you, I didn't say you were a fuckin idiot. I just simply stated that by saying that he is overrated you are overshadowing what he has accomplished. Grow up.
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Hong Kong20321 Posts
fuck in no way do i think iris choked in either iris vs ggplay@hitchiker or iris vs savior@neo arkanoid it was just ggplay and savior playing way better than iris iris already microed his troops to the max and was constantly trying to put more pressure on savior macroing a huge army moving out and trying to push in at every possible chance..
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United States7488 Posts
I have to agree with alffla here, GGPlay and Savior just stepped up when they needed to. Iris wasn't failing and would have easily stomped on any other zerg in those situations (except maybe Jaedong, but we'll have to wait and see about that one).
Iris came so close to defeating Savior, closer than any other terran had in a Bo5, and only barely managed not to take him down. As far as GGPlay and the OSL finals are concerned, I think Iris should have won, but GGPlay just got a sudden surge of strength and then the momentum kept his way once he got that surge.
Iris this year has shown that he can go toe-to-toe with the top ZvTers out there.
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I've never idolized a zerg player but I still think he's the man. I won't mind watching him tear up the competation
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Russian Federation4333 Posts
So you are saying that GGPlay was more clutch than Iris.
Ok i will rephrase that I said:
Iris would be the underdog against Jaedong because he is not very clutch in key matches (series vs. Savior and GGPlay)
This is actually a pointless argument. A Jaedong/Iris finals won't happen.
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On October 13 2007 08:32 Wasabi wrote:
Gah, I hate how the OSL winner seems so predictable recently. OSL is where one-trick ponies can shine and steal a starleague.
Lol? What evidence are you basing this on... GGPlay and Casy?
Or do you like the MSL more, where one player dominates for ~3 seasons straight?
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Russian Federation4333 Posts
On October 13 2007 08:01 bErAtEd- wrote:Show nested quote +On October 13 2007 07:47 Ace wrote:On October 13 2007 06:24 bErAtEd- wrote:On October 13 2007 06:04 Ace wrote:On October 13 2007 05:58 TheTyranid wrote:
I have this suspition that Jaedong is getting overhyped.
He is. I like his ZvT but: 1.)His ZvT is not the same as Savior's level when Savior began dominating. Savior had a much much more dismantling style. Jaedong also has 2.) He has yet to play Hwasin in a series, and hasn't played Iris at all. Those are the top TvZ monsters besides Sea who does not play like either. When/if Jaedong beats these 2 then he'll truly be THE ZvT king. Right now Savior may not be his old self but he was a bigger threat because he massacred the top Terrans from the get go. Yes everyone likes savior, I like savior. When he was at his prime no one could touch him. News flash, he isn't there right now. Jaedong deserves every bit of hype he is getting. His zvt IS the best right now. So you are right he hasn't played hwasin or iris, he is crushing everyone else. Savior didn't beat hwasin or iris the last time he played them. Regardless, even if he doesn't royal road, even if he loses to hwasin or iris, Jaedong is still amazing. He wins games, he demolishes terrans and zergs, and he does it with style. Stop trying to steal his thunder just because he isn't what savior was when savior was dominating. No one is at that point, not even savior. no one is stealing his thunder. In fact I agreed that Jaedong is great at Zvt but he isn't at the level savior was. Get the cock out your mouth. thx. By saying he is overrated isn't taking away from what he has accomplished? I don't quite see that. Unless of course I've forgotten what overrated meant. I guess that could be the problem here. You can't base jaedong's success on the fact that he isn't as dominant as savior was. If savior was still completely trashing every player that he played at the moment then yes, I would say that you have a valid argument. Its not the case though. Saviors style of play isn't working right now. In the past 4 months he's 9-13 v T. I realize that savior often has to play the stiffest competition, but thats far from where he was. Moreover, we are talking about one starleague. When savior was in his prime, he won four starleagues. You don't have to be that dominant to win, just ask casy. On the topic of your last statement, I would appreciate it if you wouldn't be a total fuckin dick for no reason. I didn't trash you, I didn't say you were a fuckin idiot. I just simply stated that by saying that he is overrated you are overshadowing what he has accomplished. Grow up.
To be honest Jaedong hasn't accomplished much. He has great success in Proleague and helped Lecaf become a powerhouse but in SL he hasn't done anything except getting ONE qualification.
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On October 13 2007 08:45 TheTyranid wrote:Show nested quote +On October 13 2007 08:01 bErAtEd- wrote:On October 13 2007 07:47 Ace wrote:On October 13 2007 06:24 bErAtEd- wrote:On October 13 2007 06:04 Ace wrote:On October 13 2007 05:58 TheTyranid wrote:
I have this suspition that Jaedong is getting overhyped.
He is. I like his ZvT but: 1.)His ZvT is not the same as Savior's level when Savior began dominating. Savior had a much much more dismantling style. Jaedong also has 2.) He has yet to play Hwasin in a series, and hasn't played Iris at all. Those are the top TvZ monsters besides Sea who does not play like either. When/if Jaedong beats these 2 then he'll truly be THE ZvT king. Right now Savior may not be his old self but he was a bigger threat because he massacred the top Terrans from the get go. Yes everyone likes savior, I like savior. When he was at his prime no one could touch him. News flash, he isn't there right now. Jaedong deserves every bit of hype he is getting. His zvt IS the best right now. So you are right he hasn't played hwasin or iris, he is crushing everyone else. Savior didn't beat hwasin or iris the last time he played them. Regardless, even if he doesn't royal road, even if he loses to hwasin or iris, Jaedong is still amazing. He wins games, he demolishes terrans and zergs, and he does it with style. Stop trying to steal his thunder just because he isn't what savior was when savior was dominating. No one is at that point, not even savior. no one is stealing his thunder. In fact I agreed that Jaedong is great at Zvt but he isn't at the level savior was. Get the cock out your mouth. thx. By saying he is overrated isn't taking away from what he has accomplished? I don't quite see that. Unless of course I've forgotten what overrated meant. I guess that could be the problem here. You can't base jaedong's success on the fact that he isn't as dominant as savior was. If savior was still completely trashing every player that he played at the moment then yes, I would say that you have a valid argument. Its not the case though. Saviors style of play isn't working right now. In the past 4 months he's 9-13 v T. I realize that savior often has to play the stiffest competition, but thats far from where he was. Moreover, we are talking about one starleague. When savior was in his prime, he won four starleagues. You don't have to be that dominant to win, just ask casy. On the topic of your last statement, I would appreciate it if you wouldn't be a total fuckin dick for no reason. I didn't trash you, I didn't say you were a fuckin idiot. I just simply stated that by saying that he is overrated you are overshadowing what he has accomplished. Grow up. To be honest Jaedong hasn't accomplished much. He has great success in Proleague and helped Lecaf become a powerhouse but in SL he hasn't done anything except getting ONE qualification.
Well he really hasn't been playing for that long as a pro, he started around the 3rd/4th month of last year and has always been used in the proleague and the lecaf coaches seemed to have been trying to improve him, while his odt/survivor performances may be mediocre, he is a better player than when he started and has more chance to qualify for SL's now, if he can improve his Vs P, he will be a formidable opponent regardless of matchup.
Edit: What he needs is the experience of playing bo3/5 more vs better players.
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On October 13 2007 08:39 Wasabi wrote:Show nested quote +On October 13 2007 08:36 Jyvblamo wrote:On October 13 2007 08:32 Wasabi wrote:
Gah, I hate how the OSL winner seems so predictable recently. OSL is where one-trick ponies can shine and steal a starleague. Lol? What evidence are you basing this on... GGPlay and Casy? Or do you like the MSL more, where one player dominates for ~3 seasons straight? Yes, and when was the last time an MSL winner won because he has one good match-up? That's what I'm saying. So what if the same player keeps winning the MSL three times? Every player who has done so is good at all match-ups.
I don't think its fair to make generalizations about the patterns of OSL-winners based on just two examples. In fact, I'd say GGPlay is pretty solid in every match-up, with his ZvP maybe being sub-par only when compared to the likes of Savior or July. I'll concede that Casy is ridiculously bad at TvP, but hardly means the OSL is easy for 'one-trick ponies' to win in.
Also, you pretty much contradicted yourself when you said the OSL winners were predictable, then went to say that people could 'steal a starleague'.
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Braavos36374 Posts
I almost think the OSL creates map imbalance in favor of terran on purpose so that the Z's that qualify are the sick ZvT ones (just look at the lineup this season, savior/ggplay/july/jaedong), and this produces great games because mediocre terrans losing to great ZvT players is very entertaining
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On October 13 2007 09:55 Hot_Bid wrote:
I almost think the OSL creates map imbalance in favor of terran on purpose so that the Z's that qualify are the sick ZvT ones (just look at the lineup this season, savior/ggplay/july/jaedong), and this produces great games because mediocre terrans losing to great ZvT players is very entertaining
I definitly enjoy watching great zvt. Even though I play terran and like to see some nice tvz, brilliant zvt is much more entertaining and rewarding from a purely fan/spectator point of view.
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United States7488 Posts
ZvT is by far my favorite match to watch. Though I would trade a ZvT superstar or two per starleague in order for there to be less Terran players and more of both Protoss and Zerg, and therefore less TvT games. I'd be nice to see mirror match Bo3's and Bo5's more often that don't involve Terran. Kind of like last MSL I guess when all the Terrans died off quickly.
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Let's be fair to Casy, he's a 2 trick pony. His TvT was wicked good. If we're gonna talk about one trick ponies, I'm surprised Anytime wasn't mentioned. He DT'ed his way to an OSL title.
As for Jaedong, I think he's gonna win this OSL, not because he's the best player out there, but because OSL is always epic and has cool storylines. Last OSL with ggplay/Iris was storyline-lacking, which means this season must make up for it!
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Russian Federation4333 Posts
Wasabi you are saying that this OSL is full of Terrans therefore JD has a high chance of winning.
But you and othershave ignored my posts where i explained how JD will run into Bisu and be defeated.
It does not matter how many Terrans there are in the OSL. Jaedong will not dodge Bisu/Stork.
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United States20661 Posts
Last OSL was too much like an MSL. The deserving player won - that's not how it's supposed to be.
The FATED win OSL. There was no fate behind either Iris or GGPlay.
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On October 13 2007 10:57 Last Romantic wrote:
Last OSL was too much like an MSL. The deserving player won - that's not how it's supposed to be.
The FATED win OSL. There was no fate behind either Iris or GGPlay.
Well, you could say that Iris had some fate behind him, taking Savior to Game 5 in the previous season, and then beating him in a BO3 in the next season. Too bad he couldn't close out vs GGplay. :\ (Also cost me 8 liquibet points)
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GGplay deserved his OSL win.
Beating Hwasin, Flash and Iris in a row is not an easy feat. There was maybe a bit of Casy about his win since he didn't have to play a competent process, but you couldn't fault his ZvT.
If Jaedong can avoid Bisu, he'll go very far. I don't think his ZvP is good enough however to beat Bisu or event Stork in a bo3/bo5 series.]
Time will tell though!
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Russian Federation4333 Posts
On October 13 2007 11:19 RowdierBob wrote:
GGplay deserved his OSL win.
Beating Hwasin, Flash and Iris in a row is not an easy feat. There was maybe a bit of Casy about his win since he didn't have to play a competent process, but you couldn't fault his ZvT.
If Jaedong can avoid Bisu, he'll go very far. I don't think his ZvP is good enough however to beat Bisu or event Stork in a bo3/bo5 series.]
Time will tell though!
On October 13 2007 10:46 TheTyranid wrote:
Jaedong will not dodge Bisu/Stork.
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Jaedong is an exciting player, and brings an exciting ZvT too. Kewl dood go Jaedong :D.
A bit off topic, but I didn't know that was what Royal Road actually meant (Winning OSL in first appearance). So what is it called when a player has a chance to win both MSL and OSL in the same season? (Like when Savior failed to do so?)
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Russian Federation4333 Posts
On October 13 2007 12:41 Wasabi wrote:Show nested quote +On October 13 2007 10:46 TheTyranid wrote:
Wasabi you are saying that this OSL is full of Terrans therefore JD has a high chance of winning.
But you and othershave ignored my posts where i explained how JD will run into Bisu and be defeated.
It does not matter how many Terrans there are in the OSL. Jaedong will not dodge Bisu/Stork. Doesn't matter? You are ignoring Jaedong's ZvP, which is weak. Let's say this OSL has a balanced race count instead of it having mostly Terran. If even Rock can beat him in a PvZ (that series was really bad, except for the last game, when Rock turned up a notch, and pummeled Jaedong like a b.net pubbie), I very much doubt his chances of advancing to OSL. Now if he can improve his ZvP as quickly as Iris did with his TvZ, then he could have a chance against the Protoss in this OSL, Bisu in particular. The last time he won against a Protoss is against SoO. If you look at his OSC wins, which was his ticket to this OSL, it was ALL but one match (one ZvZ) against Terrans, and lost to the only Protoss he met. What make you think he can get past the best PvZ player right now?
I don't know why you even mentioned Rock. Look at my post on page 1. Jaedong will probably meet either bisu or Stork. Rock has nothing to do with this. To be honest your post doesnt make a lot of sence.
You sound like you are defending Jaedong but at the same time criticizing his ZvP.
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Russian Federation4333 Posts
On October 13 2007 13:16 Wasabi wrote:
You are saying that Jaedong has to play Stork and Bisu. I'm only talking about how he can't advance to OSL if he meets one of them especially Bisu, and that he has good ZvT. So if we agree on this then there's no point you should have replied to anything I said because that's what I've been saying about Jaedong, and his ZvT joyride to his OSL win.
An OSL full of T and Z but not this OSL because he most likely will play Bisu/Stork.
edit: Oh and please stop talking about Casy and GGPlay "STEALING" OSL's. That type of logic just drives me mad.
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Braavos36374 Posts
First, let's get rid of the assumption that someone getting hot and winning an OSL off one matchup is necessary "stealing" one. If anyone watched GGPlay in Daum, his road was Stork, Casy, UpMagic, Hwasin Bo3, Flash Bo5, Iris Bo5. Yes they were close series but nobody doubts GGPlay's level of play in Daum was deserving of a Starleague. You can't fault him that he didn't get to play more P's than Stork. While his ZvP historically isn't great, we had no clue about GGPlay's ZvP level during that run. GGPlay's ZvT wasn't that great before the Daum season rolled around, he flamed out pretty easily in Shinhan3.
Second, stop talking as if Stork is a guarantee to beat Jaedong if they played. Stork's PvZ problems (5-5 last 10, 32-32 overall) are just as bad as Jaedong's ZvP ones (5-5 last 10, 14-15 overall). Everyone keeps forgetting Stork has just as bad a matchup yet everyone wouldn't say that he "stole" the GomTV2 MSL if he won vs Bisu right? Stork even got eliminated by Savior and reached the finals playing exclusively PvT. He basically only won ONLY PvT, losing his PvZ and PvP series. But I didn't see anyone making comments that Stork "lucked out" to get to the MSL finals.
(Example: Stork has to resort to cheesing Orion to advance in the MSL, and only won because Orion fucked up micro)
So everyone trying to bring down Jaedong because his ZvZ and ZvT are way above his ZvP, please shut up. Rarely does an OSL champ play all three matchups against good players in a single Starleague. Savior played only ZvT in Shinhan3, Nada didn't play TvZ in Shinhan2, Casy TvP in Shinhan1. People have weaknesses. Avoiding a certain matchup can be lucky, yes, but you can't fault a player for that. They only have 3 boX series in each OSL, its hard to have each one be a different race.
The only big favorite over Jaedong in a Bo3/Bo5 right now is Bisu. It's a tossup against Stork and Rock (regardless of what happened in OSC). He's also the only Zerg player right now who I'd give a 50% chance against Hwasin. He's just going to have to hope that a Terran or Stork can take out Bisu before he has to play him.
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On October 13 2007 15:23 Hot_Bid wrote:
First, let's get rid of the assumption that someone getting hot and winning an OSL off one matchup is necessary "stealing" one. If anyone watched GGPlay in Daum, his road was Stork, Casy, UpMagic, Hwasin Bo3, Flash Bo5, Iris Bo5. Yes they were close series but nobody doubts GGPlay's level of play in Daum was deserving of a Starleague. You can't fault him that he didn't get to play more P's than Stork. While his ZvP historically isn't great, we had no clue about GGPlay's ZvP level during that run. GGPlay's ZvT wasn't that great before the Daum season rolled around, he flamed out pretty easily in Shinhan3.
Second, stop talking as if Stork is a guarantee to beat Jaedong if they played. Stork's PvZ problems (5-5 last 10, 32-32 overall) are just as bad as Jaedong's ZvP ones (5-5 last 10, 14-15 overall). Everyone keeps forgetting Stork has just as bad a matchup yet everyone wouldn't say that he "stole" the GomTV2 MSL if he won vs Bisu right? Stork even got eliminated by Savior and reached the finals playing exclusively PvT. He basically only won ONLY PvT, losing his PvZ and PvP series. But I didn't see anyone making comments that Stork "lucked out" to get to the MSL finals.
So everyone trying to bring down Jaedong because his ZvZ and ZvT are way above his ZvP, please shut up. Rarely does an OSL champ play all three matchups against good players in a single Starleague. Savior played only ZvT in Shinhan3, Nada didn't play TvZ in Shinhan2, Casy TvP in Shinhan1. People have weaknesses. Avoiding a certain matchup can be lucky, yes, but you can't fault a player for that. They only have 3 boX series in each OSL, its hard to have each one be a different race.
The only big favorite over Jaedong in a Bo3/Bo5 right now is Bisu. It's a tossup against Stork and Rock (regardless of what happened in OSC). He's also the only Zerg player right now who I'd give a 50% chance against Hwasin. He's just going to have to hope that a Terran or Stork can take out Bisu before he has to play him.
Great post. I really don't feel Stork is an insurmountable object against Jae pvz. That being said, any zvp for Jae is clearly a tougher mu, but if he's confident (which he should be) no one can honestly say he doesn't have at least 50-50 odds against Stork, who has had his own pvz problems.
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Braavos36374 Posts
And I'll have to say that Jaedong's ZvT level right now IS comparable to Savior in Shinhan3. People seem to forget how close Savior was to losing in both leagues:
Savior in Shinhan3:
Group stage - 1-1 had to play light to advance
Ro16: Down 0-1 vs Midas (came back to win 2-1)
Ro4: 2-2 with Iris (barely won game 5)
Savior in GomTV1
Semi1: 1-1 vs Justin (came back to win 2-1)
Semi2: 2-2 vs Hwasin (barely won game 5)
Savior won because he was clutch and had sense for the big moments, not because he was invincible.
I am as big a Savior fan as anyone but I fully understood just how close it is at the top of Progaming. People like to speak of Savior like a ZvT god but in reality he was VERY close to losing many of those ZvT series (remember the 4 pool at 1-1 vs Bifrost??)
Savior going 14-8 in ZvT during his "dominant" period is great, but it is also certainly comparable to Jaedong's ZvT run right now. I'd even go so far as to say Jaedong right now is more impressive than Savior was before. It's certainly not out of the question when you see:
Jaedong in ZvT:
12-0 last 12 games, 17-3 last 20 games
Wins over Hwasin, Light, Sea (2)
Savior NEVER got to these numbers. Yes Savior played better competition, but even versus lower-tier Terrans like Bifrost, Savior would still drop the odd game here or there. What made Savior great was his balance in all matchups.
But if you watch just ZvT games, Jaedong looks just as good if not better than Savior did in Daum/GomTV1 (and way better than Savior does now, obviously).
You can make an argument that Jaedong right now has achieved the highest level of ZvT ever in the history of Progaming (have you ever heard of 17-3 stats? wtf??). It's really quite amazing, and Jaedong deserves all the hype he's getting. I want Bisu and Savior to win this OSL but Jaedong is a fine winner too.
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United States10774 Posts
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I don't know. To me it seemed like Hwasin was doing a risky build, fell behind early, and made a game out of it when it shouldn't have been much of one. Although he used the same build to beat Savior in Proleauge immediately after that... ~_~
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On October 13 2007 05:53 zulu_nation8 wrote:
what does royal road mean
Jaedong's ZvT is Savior circa 2006 level except more refined. As long as he is not at too much of a disadvantage by the time his mutalisks come out there is no terran that can beat him. I think Flash does have somewhat of a chance though, hope they meet in starleague
I honestly don't think there is a terran out there who will beat him Bo5, he's currently better then sAviOr, July, and GGPlay, at ZvT, something i honeslty never thought i would say for any player, but this guy is just amazing, theres not really a single terran that comes to mind who will take him out in a Bo5, maybe a Bo3, IriS is pretty much the only one. Maybe Hwasin? But honestly, i don't think either could, and look at his god damn ZvZ? 74%? Or whatever it is exactly, i'm not sure. Since it's ZvZ someone could get a lucky game, maybe even a lucky series, but i would still pick him over pretty much any zerg player in the world. Protoss is his only weakness, and even that, i doubt theres a protoss besides Free, Stork, or Bisu who could take him down. Or maybe i'm over estimating him slightly in that match up.
On a side note, can anyone spell a kill E's heel for me? I was trying to use the word and forgot how to spell it, iw as thining achaelee's or soemthing, but whatever.
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@Hot_Bid:
Savior had to play on a lot worse maps than the current ones though. Big difference between beating good terrans on python, tau, blue storm vs. RLT (wtf?) and Desert Fox (WTF?!). Jaedong's entire win streak is on balanced or better maps for ZvT.
I do think Jaedong is playing the best ZvT at the moment, but what Savior did in Shinhan3 era was still the better performance. At the highest stakes on the crappiest of maps Savior managed to win.
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@ Monkeyspanker: It's spelled "Achilles' Heel"
@Hotbid: Great posts, I'd have to agree with almost all you said, although I'd put forth that Oov's 27-0 TvZ streak was more impressive than Jaedong's current ZvT win-streak. :3
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sAviOr
July
Jaedong
A comparison of zvt during each players best win streak in 20 games.
sAviOr posted these results in the MSL and proleague. July's games were mostly in the survivor and challenge tournaments. Jaedong's results are like half proleague and half osc/odt.
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I don't think I have much to contribute in the way of analysis, but let me just say Jaedong is simply a badass for using his name as his nick.
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Live2Win
United States6657 Posts
I agree completely with Hot_Bid.
Another point I'd like to add is that Savior's games were generally extremely close. His RLT match vs Midas, his Arkanoid match vs IriS, his 2 base fast defiler tech match vs Hwasin, 5 pool vs Justin, these were all epic games that left us gripping in our seats. They were great games and were the most epic games out there, but that's just it, they were so close.
JaeDong's games just spell dominance. I can't think of a single ZvT game during his 12 game win-streak where JaeDong just barely wins. Most if not all of them (though I don't remember all 12) were him fairly dominating his opponent with his insane muta micro followed by his insane lair play and hive play.
Savior's games were great to watch, but JaeDong's games imo show more dominance.
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Russian Federation4333 Posts
On October 14 2007 04:03 MoNKeYSpanKeR wrote:Show nested quote +On October 13 2007 05:53 zulu_nation8 wrote:
what does royal road mean
Jaedong's ZvT is Savior circa 2006 level except more refined. As long as he is not at too much of a disadvantage by the time his mutalisks come out there is no terran that can beat him. I think Flash does have somewhat of a chance though, hope they meet in starleague I honestly don't think there is a terran out there who will beat him Bo5, he's currently better then sAviOr, July, and GGPlay, at ZvT, something i honeslty never thought i would say for any player, but this guy is just amazing, theres not really a single terran that comes to mind who will take him out in a Bo5, maybe a Bo3, IriS is pretty much the only one. Maybe Hwasin? But honestly, i don't think either could, and look at his god damn ZvZ? 74%? Or whatever it is exactly, i'm not sure. Since it's ZvZ someone could get a lucky game, maybe even a lucky series, but i would still pick him over pretty much any zerg player in the world. Protoss is his only weakness, and even that, i doubt theres a protoss besides Free, Stork, or Bisu who could take him down. Or maybe i'm over estimating him slightly in that match up. On a side note, can anyone spell a kill E's heel for me? I was trying to use the word and forgot how to spell it, iw as thining achaelee's or soemthing, but whatever.
It is hard to say how JD would preform in a clutch situation like a BO5 in SL semis or finals. Keep in mind he is pretty much untested in SL. What if he choaks or he gets very nervous at a higher level of competition? Both Iris and Hwasin have a 50/50 chance against JD in a BO5. They have experience on their side.
In my opinion the Terran with the most chances of beating JD is Casy.
Jaedong is a lair heavy zerg against Casy preforms his best. Casy's TvZ weakness is hive tech.
But then again maybe I am too much of a Casy fan.
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Braavos36374 Posts
Casy is not in shape right now.
And I wouldn't say Jaedong is "lair heavy" because his defiler control is so perfect--he's the best defiler user right now.
I'd say Hwasin on the current set of maps is 50/50 with Jaedong in a bo5. Every other Terran is an underdog.
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On October 13 2007 05:50 alffla wrote:
i love jaedong man
his name is cool
he looks cool
his zvt is cool as fuck
GOGO 이제동!!!!!!!!!!!
His name is his name, btw. Real name: Lee Jae Dong. Kinda makes his nick less cool to me. Although I guess in the early days lots of players went into tournaments under their real names.
Edit: Oops didn't see azndsh had just said that.
Anyways, what seals it for me is that he beat Hwasin. I'd like to see how he does against Iris, which is a possibility in the tournament.
Jae really is pretty weak against toss. He has only met up with Stork and Bisu once each, and lost both, as well as lots of losses to free and Rock and Much, who if he cannot beat there's no way he's beating Bisu.
Stork's PvZ isn't good, but it's not BAD. Jaedong's ZvP is mediocre at best.
It will all come down to how the pieces fall into the Ro8 bracket. If Bisu gets July or Hwasin or Stork early on and gets taken out, who knows... Unfortunately I don't know how the groups -> Ro8 placement works. (if there is a thread that explains that please PM me btw)
Edit again: I just realized that we'll see how Stork and Jaedong fare against each other in their group anyways
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Didn't Jaedong lose to Rock recently in a BO3?
Jaedong does have incredibly strong TvZ though (I don't really remember any epic ZvZ games from him).
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On October 14 2007 12:46 Cambium wrote:
Didn't Jaedong lose to Rock recently in a BO3?
Jaedong does have incredibly strong TvZ though (I don't really remember any epic ZvZ games from him).
Lost 1-3 in a bo5.. sadly
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United States1654 Posts
On October 14 2007 04:14 NovaTheFeared wrote:
@Hot_Bid:
Savior had to play on a lot worse maps than the current ones though. Big difference between beating good terrans on python, tau, blue storm vs. RLT (wtf?) and Desert Fox (WTF?!). Jaedong's entire win streak is on balanced or better maps for ZvT.
I do think Jaedong is playing the best ZvT at the moment, but what Savior did in Shinhan3 era was still the better performance. At the highest stakes on the crappiest of maps Savior managed to win.
This is very true.
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On October 18 2007 06:54 SigrUn wrote:Show nested quote +On October 14 2007 04:14 NovaTheFeared wrote:
@Hot_Bid:
Savior had to play on a lot worse maps than the current ones though. Big difference between beating good terrans on python, tau, blue storm vs. RLT (wtf?) and Desert Fox (WTF?!). Jaedong's entire win streak is on balanced or better maps for ZvT.
I do think Jaedong is playing the best ZvT at the moment, but what Savior did in Shinhan3 era was still the better performance. At the highest stakes on the crappiest of maps Savior managed to win. This is very true.
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i always secretly wondered if the map makers were just trying to make savior lose when they were designing them, because after bisu beat him the map pools started balancing out.
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Calgary25977 Posts
On October 14 2007 04:14 NovaTheFeared wrote:
@Hot_Bid:
Savior had to play on a lot worse maps than the current ones though. Big difference between beating good terrans on python, tau, blue storm vs. RLT (wtf?) and Desert Fox (WTF?!). Jaedong's entire win streak is on balanced or better maps for ZvT.
I do think Jaedong is playing the best ZvT at the moment, but what Savior did in Shinhan3 era was still the better performance. At the highest stakes on the crappiest of maps Savior managed to win.
This is a really good point. Some of those maps are uphill battles the entire game. RLT is hard, Arkanoid is very hard, and Desert Fox is just dumb.
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On October 14 2007 11:26 TheTyranid wrote:Show nested quote +On October 14 2007 04:03 MoNKeYSpanKeR wrote:On October 13 2007 05:53 zulu_nation8 wrote:
what does royal road mean
Jaedong's ZvT is Savior circa 2006 level except more refined. As long as he is not at too much of a disadvantage by the time his mutalisks come out there is no terran that can beat him. I think Flash does have somewhat of a chance though, hope they meet in starleague I honestly don't think there is a terran out there who will beat him Bo5, he's currently better then sAviOr, July, and GGPlay, at ZvT, something i honeslty never thought i would say for any player, but this guy is just amazing, theres not really a single terran that comes to mind who will take him out in a Bo5, maybe a Bo3, IriS is pretty much the only one. Maybe Hwasin? But honestly, i don't think either could, and look at his god damn ZvZ? 74%? Or whatever it is exactly, i'm not sure. Since it's ZvZ someone could get a lucky game, maybe even a lucky series, but i would still pick him over pretty much any zerg player in the world. Protoss is his only weakness, and even that, i doubt theres a protoss besides Free, Stork, or Bisu who could take him down. Or maybe i'm over estimating him slightly in that match up. On a side note, can anyone spell a kill E's heel for me? I was trying to use the word and forgot how to spell it, iw as thining achaelee's or soemthing, but whatever. It is hard to say how JD would preform in a clutch situation like a BO5 in SL semis or finals. Keep in mind he is pretty much untested in SL. What if he choaks or he gets very nervous at a higher level of competition? Both Iris and Hwasin have a 50/50 chance against JD in a BO5. They have experience on their side. In my opinion the Terran with the most chances of beating JD is Casy. Jaedong is a lair heavy zerg against Casy preforms his best. Casy's TvZ weakness is hive tech. But then again maybe I am too much of a Casy fan.
not really, lair/macro heavy z's, especially one who does it as cleanly as jaedong, are very hard to outmicro because there arent really many holes to exploit. theres only so much you can do with 12 rines vs 6 control groups. the hive tech z's are the ones who rely on outsmarting/outpositioning/outmicroing terran, and that is where casy excels.
i cant imagine casy doing exceptionally well vs jaedong, even when he was in his prime.
honestly nada on a hot streak is the only terran id pick as a pretty solid favorite on him, only terran who can keep up with his mechanics in all areas.
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jaedong has no chance walking the royal road.
p looking too strong this season and
jaedong needs to improve his zvp.
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If Stork and Bisu somehow go down early, he has a shot. If he hits Bisu he's screwed. Stork's PvZ might just be weak enough for Jaedong to slip through if he gets lucky.
His odds aren't great, but I'd say he has a chance.
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It's a good thing that there are only 2 really good P's right now, there are others that approach stork and bisu, but none of them have the same spark or solidity in all matchups. Stork still sometimes chooses to play PvZ in an archaic way (see: hardcore zealot) compared to Bisu, and for that reason Jaedong might be able to pull off his agressive play. However when it comes to the multy-tasking monster Bisu I wonder if he can adapt to getting harassed. Though if Bisu doesn't completely rape Hwasin (the opposite would be losing) it might affect his mental state somewhat. Then again Bisu ,and Stork, are playing the players they should have met in the finals or semis.
EDIT: whoops I'm retarded, we're talking about OSL here. Well, in that case I'm giving Jaedong even less of a chance because I don't see Bisu or Stork getting anyone they can't handle.
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On October 13 2007 07:26 MYM.Testie wrote:
I'm not confident his ZvT is the best right now, and want to see how well he does on hard maps for zerg vs top terrans who are practicing vs zerg for a week or more straight.
This is one of those times where the statistics are a bit too early despite being really good for him.
Obviously if he wins this league i'll definitely change my stance. I am just doubtful he could be far in the lead of ZvT when there's so many good zergs, and that Savior is probably still top but has had to play on some rougher maps.
Quite sensible thing to say.
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Jaedong can handle any terran and any Zerg, he will make it, unless he ends up fighting Bisu or Stork, above 70% in ZvT and ZvZ is pretty insane
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Ugh, he lost to Stork... and then proceeded to lose to a terran(Sheis) after? Jaedong! Dont worry ur still me hero :D
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On November 07 2007 07:57 bumatlarge wrote:
Ugh, he lost to Stork... and then proceeded to lose to a terran(Sheis) after? Jaedong! Dont worry ur still me hero :D
Sheis sir is 7-0 against zerg you cannot knock his tvz play
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On November 07 2007 07:57 bumatlarge wrote:
Ugh, he lost to Stork... and then proceeded to lose to a terran(Sheis) after? Jaedong! Dont worry ur still me hero :D
It's alright, he obviously threw those games for *insert reason here* 
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People are referring too much to TLPD for their arguments (HotBid anyone?).
Savior dropped a game to bifrost on desertfox, I remember that stinker as clear as day. Towards Shin3 Savior said his games were becoming increasingly tougher. Well of course, he's been owning since UZOO in 05, he's been THE GUY for whom everyone trained to win against.
Jaedong's zvt is rock solid, his zvz is immaculate, but his zvp is morbid. He's not gonna win a starleague without a ton of luck like what happened to Casy or Gorush, especially now in this era.
God I wouldn't want him to be another Casy, big ZvT/Mirror MUs, with vP so shit the quickest way to eliminate him from a starleague is just to drop a P into his group.
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On November 07 2007 11:02 .dragoon wrote:
People are referring too much to TLPD for their arguments (HotBid anyone?).
Savior dropped a game to bifrost on desertfox, I remember that stinker as clear as day. Towards Shin3 Savior said his games were becoming increasingly tougher. Well of course, he's been owning since UZOO in 05, he's been THE GUY for whom everyone trained to win against.
Jaedong's zvt is rock solid, his zvz is immaculate, but his zvp is morbid. He's not gonna win a starleague without a ton of luck like what happened to Casy or Gorush, especially now in this era.
Keep in mind that if Frozean loses to Rock on Thursday, then Jaedong won't face any Protoss players unless:
A) Stork somehow overcomes Savior.
B) He meets Bisu in the finals.
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Meeting Bisu in the finals is EXACTLY what I'm worried about.
Can you imagine the anti-climax that is Dragon Bisu >>>>>>>3:0>>>>>>> Puppy Jaedong? He won't be able to walk straight or sit down for weeks.
I love the newschool players of Upmagic/Jaedong/Free, I think they're fun to watch and want them to succeed. However you just can't have a weakness as evident as one whole MU and think you'll walk away unscathed by opinion.
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Russian Federation4333 Posts
On November 07 2007 11:17 .dragoon wrote:
Meeting Bisu in the finals is EXACTLY what I'm worried about.
Can you imagine the anti-climax that is Dragon Bisu >>>>>>>3:0>>>>>>> Puppy Jaedong? He won't be able to walk straight or sit down for weeks.
I love the newschool players of Upmagic/Jaedong/Free, I think they're fun to watch and want them to succeed. However you just can't have a weakness as evident as one whole MU and think you'll walk away unscathed by opinion.
No man, it's called protoss dodging although Jaedong has not achieved mastery of this crucial skill.
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On November 07 2007 11:02 .dragoon wrote:
Jaedong's zvt is rock solid, his zvz is immaculate, but his zvp is morbid. He's not gonna win a starleague without a ton of luck like what happened to Casy or Gorush, especially now in this era.
gorush doesnt belong on that list, his zvp is bad now but when he won his msl and got 3rd in osl he was insanely good in all 3 matchups.
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Dodging is for group stage, you can't dodge a starleague final.
And I guess it's just Casy then. But it's a stretch to say that his ZvP was good with your 2 examples since he didn't play a P once in those 2 leagues and ZvP in 2004 was exceedingly easy.
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On November 07 2007 11:37 .dragoon wrote:
Dodging is for group stage, you can't dodge a starleague final.
And I guess it's just Casy then.
Jaedong can totally dodge Bisu in the OSL final:
He can pray that Shudder pulls a successful cheese on Bluestorm
He can hope that someone can luck a few wins vs him in the RO8.
He can slip horse-tranquilizer into Bisu's breakfast of rum and beef jerky prior to the RO4.
Then, if that doesn't work, he pretty much runs out of options and must submit to biting down on a cyanide pill rather than lose 3-0 to Bisu.
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His zvp isn't TOO bad. it's just not as good.
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Jaedong is pretty good but I doubt he can win the OSL yet.
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Valhalla18444 Posts
On November 07 2007 12:03 blagoonga123 wrote:
His zvp isn't TOO bad. it's just not as good.
no dude, its pretty bad
the only zerg playing worse against protoss right now is gorush
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I think the terrans in the OSL are good enough such that Bisu is less likely than Jaedong to make the finals.
If both meet in the finals, though, Jaedong should take the cyanide pill
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I doubt Jaedong can take Hwasin or Iris
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Canada5062 Posts
Jaedong v Bisu wouldn't be much of a fight - But I'd pay to see a bo5 between Jaedong and Hwasin. That would be something.
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On November 07 2007 14:01 i.play.ZERG wrote:
I doubt Jaedong can take Hwasin or Iris
i really think Jaedong would stomp iris, but HwaSin would be a great match. two players just monsters at what they do
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Iris' TvZ is not that horrible but it pales in comparison to his TvT.
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I actually haven't gotten the chance to see too many Jaedong games. The ones I have seen of him were just so-so; I'm surprised his stats are that insanely high.
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Yeah his ZvZ seems to be exceptionally good as he can take on people like Savior on an equal basis.
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The only terran i think currently that has a chance is Hwasin because of his timing 50/50 and momentum. But if hwasin is unlucky he might not qualify for next round.
And Iris might have a slight chance. 40-60ish. He comes with nice builds and has nice macro and hes pretty agressive.
Wait flash might have a chance. His game vs Jaedong on python i remember.
Statisticwise
Only 3 terrans have a winning record vs jaedong currently
Casy who is 3-0 vs Jaedong
Flash who is 1-0
And Sheis who is 2-0 which ended jaedong's 13 zvt win streak Holy shit and hes 7-0 Damn hes like midas's tvp but with tvz
Iris is untested vs jaedong
Out of all of them only flash is in osl
Jaedong has a high chance to win this osl as long as he doesnt meet bisu.
On November 07 2007 11:37 .dragoon wrote:
Dodging is for group stage, you can't dodge a starleague final.
And I guess it's just Casy then. But it's a stretch to say that his ZvP was good with your 2 examples since he didn't play a P once in those 2 leagues and ZvP in 2004 was exceedingly easy.
In gorush yrtgk 2005 prime the only toss he lost too was ra. He went like 13 televised wins. His zvp was like 15-2 than. He was considred the best zvp and zvz at that time. And his zvt was really good too going 4-2 vs a in shape nada in bo7. Im pretty sure even if he met tosses he would have won.
Luck is someone like silver with his zvp hydra rush. Or chojja with his zvz.
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On November 07 2007 18:21 Ilikestarcraft wrote:
Luck is someone like silver with his zvp hydra rush. Or chojja with his zvz.
Why do you think that chojja has luck with his zvz?
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Because he would have lost that msl if it wasnt for his zvz. If savior lost to oov i am 99% sure chojja would have lost to oov. But i wouldn't consider it as lucky as silver or casy. Cause chojja's other mus arent that bad. Compared to silver's zvt and casy's tvp.
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Oh I see, I agree with you. He had luck with his matchups,no doubt about it. I thought you were speaking about his gameplay. I`ve always thought that chojja has the best zvz  .
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HonestTea
5007 Posts
On November 07 2007 14:11 mensrea wrote:
Jaedong v Bisu wouldn't be much of a fight - But I'd pay to see a bo5 between Jaedong and Hwasin. That would be something.
Seconded for truth.
Too bad Jaedong's ZvP is so mediocre
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maybe jaedong will be the zerg who shows how to kill Bisu like Bisu did it to savior.... we will see
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On November 08 2007 00:33 Schiller wrote:maybe jaedong will be the zerg who shows how to kill Bisu like Bisu did it to savior.... we will see
he cant even beat stork... no way hed have a chance against bisu
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reading this post in light of the recent outcome of the EVER OSL finals is incredibly interesting. i'm amazed at the quality of analysis from TL.net forum posters. after searching this forum, i think the complete list of "Royal Roaders" follows:
+ Show Spoiler +GARIMTO - 2000 Freechal Open
BoxeR - 2001 Hanbitsoft
NaDa - 2003 Panasonic
July - 2004 Gillete
Anytime - 2005 So1
sAviOr - 2007 3rd ShinHan
Jaedong - 2007 EVER
is there a title for players who win the MSL upon their first entry? i think that list would be:
+ Show Spoiler +BoxeR - 2002 KPGA 1st Tour
NaDa - 2002 KPGA 2nd Tour
ilovoov - 2003 TriGem
Bisu - 2006 GOMTV S1
Mind - 2007 GOMTV S3
obviously I am new to TL.net. if this is an unnecessary use of the spoiler tag, please let me know.
*OSL list updated - thanks
*MSL list updated - thanks again!
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Didn't Savior walk the royal road too?
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3 Lions
United States3705 Posts
savior royal road in osl i think
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im pretty sure savior didn't win the msl on his first try lemme check
edit: ya he lost to themarine in Spris MSL
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United States22883 Posts
Royal Road is just an OSL thing. MSL is just first timers. :x
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If we're counting Freechal for Garimto, shouldn't Freemura get an automatic Royal Road title for taking '99 Progamer Korea Open? :p
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i am probably too much of a noob to understand what you are saying, FB ... but it seems like you are saying that Freechal was the first OSL and should not count as a Royal Road. but i thought Hanaro was the first OSL, so I intentionally didn't count Grrr... sorry if this is just over my head, but i am trying to learn
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EPT
