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On December 22 2020 07:17 Grouhh wrote:
If it is UMS, does that mean we can also get rid of those infamous new colors ?
By that I mean colors that are either invisible on the minimap (black, grey, navy) or undistinguishable from each other, like all those damn tones of white.
Is there any way to do that, whether in melee or UMS ?
Yeah it's called hitting shift+tab
Btw thanks for making these Bot games, they're super entertaining and much more balanced than your regular bgh games. In fact I probably wouldn't be playing BGH at all if it wasn't for the bots.
It's a bit unfortunate that Zerg is comparatively weak outside of the very early game, you can't carry a team with it like with T/P.
I'd definitely play with UMS.
I think biggest remaining issue is match dodging due to S/A not being able to carry an E/F rank teammate.
On MMR it feels like bot considers A/C/F vs C/C/C to be balanced, but in reality it's usually not.
I know various suggestions have been made with minimum rank games etc, but that excludes the possibility of S and F rank players playing together which in turn reduces the likelihood to get a game at all.
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Norway28909 Posts
The dodging is definitely annoying, but I can't really come up with an alternative that doesn't screw you over hard by afk people or early leavers. Sucks when people leave because they have bad partners though.
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On December 22 2020 07:17 Grouhh wrote:
If it is UMS, does that mean we can also get rid of those infamous new colors ?
By that I mean colors that are either invisible on the minimap (black, grey, navy) or undistinguishable from each other, like all those damn tones of white.
Is there any way to do that, whether in melee or UMS ?
I was thinking about 2 things:
- Observing after being killed
- Using triggers to push some info about the state of the game to replay (I don't know if it's possible)
Rest would stay the same.
On December 22 2020 09:42 Armathai wrote:Show nested quote +On December 22 2020 07:17 Grouhh wrote:
If it is UMS, does that mean we can also get rid of those infamous new colors ?
By that I mean colors that are either invisible on the minimap (black, grey, navy) or undistinguishable from each other, like all those damn tones of white.
Is there any way to do that, whether in melee or UMS ? Yeah it's called hitting shift+tab Btw thanks for making these Bot games, they're super entertaining and much more balanced than your regular bgh games. In fact I probably wouldn't be playing BGH at all if it wasn't for the bots. It's a bit unfortunate that Zerg is comparatively weak outside of the very early game, you can't carry a team with it like with T/P. I'd definitely play with UMS. I think biggest remaining issue is match dodging due to S/A not being able to carry an E/F rank teammate. On MMR it feels like bot considers A/C/F vs C/C/C to be balanced, but in reality it's usually not. I know various suggestions have been made with minimum rank games etc, but that excludes the possibility of S and F rank players playing together which in turn reduces the likelihood to get a game at all.
Thanks. BTW I didn't know about shift+tab, will try this, thanks.
Yes, BGH is clearly not perfectly balanced, but I would say it's balanced enough to make it enjoyable. And it seems not to be clearly broken i.e. there seem to be no build order/strategy that makes winning 100% games possible.
As for A/C/F vs C/C/C or B/D/D vs C/C/C and so on: I don't have a very good method for combining team members MMR's into one team MMR. I plan to investigate this but that requires some experiments with existing data, and right now I'm more focused on the inner workings of this system itself rather than MMR calculation. But I hope to improve this at some point.
On December 22 2020 09:55 Liquid`Drone wrote:
The dodging is definitely annoying, but I can't really come up with an alternative that doesn't screw you over hard by afk people or early leavers. Sucks when people leave because they have bad partners though.
In perfect system scoring should balance any imperfections in teams. That would mean that even with a worse team your penalty for losing is so small and reward for winning so high that dodging doesn't really make that much sense. Still, would people want to play games with 30% win chance even if the penalty for losing was minimal? Probably not...
But the bot's control over the lobby is limited. Once it starts banning too many people, the lobby gets deserted.
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Ban Trebol for unallying / teamkilling. K. thx
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Russian Federation16 Posts
On December 22 2020 19:06 D3AD-R3TARD wrote:
Observing after being killed
Possible. In UMS, just disable "current player commands at most 0 buildings - defeat current player" trigger. And make sure you still have victory trigger if non-allied players command 0 buildings. These triggers are default in SCMDraft as "default melee triggers" when you create a map. With this a defeated teammate can still be in the game, though this is not classic observer mode when the player sees all players (including his opponents).
Using triggers to push some info about the state of the game to replay (I don't know if it's possible)
I believe it is possible too. But it is limited to available trigger conditions. The idea is to add neutral player and spam it with text messages on certain conditions. With some patience (and helpful trigger-cloning tools) you can code diverse game situations, then analyze the replay.
BGH is clearly not perfectly balanced, but I would say it's balanced enough to make it enjoyable
Once you play this map like 10 times in a row, it does not look much enjoyable. Monotony is boring. Please, consider to add a diverse mappool, at least TRY it. Starcraft community does not deserve to play the same 6p map for 20 years, especially when there are tons of 3x3 maps, e.g. (6)Sixth Sense, (6)Redheart Bridge, (6)Dust Clouds, (6)Tectonic Ridge by Freakling, (6)Ascend, (6)Sanctuaries, (6)Ancient Bridges, (6)Dreamweaver, (6)Crowned Cat.
Feature request: add race winrate stats somewhere on bghmmr.eu site. Earlier in this thread you provided the stats with a post, but more fresh data would be nice to have.
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there is missing a ton of games from last night between midnight and ~1:30 a.m. european time.... had like 4 or 5 wins in a row, only one of them appears in my game history
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On December 23 2020 16:37 t1mz_ wrote:Once you play this map like 10 times in a row, it does not look much enjoyable. Monotony is boring. Please, consider to add a diverse mappool, at least TRY it. Starcraft community does not deserve to play the same 6p map for 20 years, especially when there are tons of 3x3 maps, e.g. (6)Sixth Sense, (6)Redheart Bridge, (6)Dust Clouds, (6)Tectonic Ridge by Freakling, (6)Ascend, (6)Sanctuaries, (6)Ancient Bridges, (6)Dreamweaver, (6)Crowned Cat.
BGH is propably played becouse it has endless minerals and gas in main, so noobs can achieve late game tech without ever expanding or leaving the main. Love the autobalance feature, but comes with downside of crappy map. Even regular hunters wouldnt be considered.
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[/QUOTE]
BGH is propably played becouse it has endless minerals and gas in main, so noobs can achieve late game tech without ever expanding or leaving the main. Love the autobalance feature, but comes with downside of crappy map. Even regular hunters wouldnt be considered.[/QUOTE]
This is true but I find it a reason to enjoy BGH more. 3v3 games with a mixture of noobs and better players are varied and challenging, and a good way to play some varied and chilled games. That wouldn't be true with only good players as there would be less scope for interesting games on BGH and better maps become more important. Basically, having autobalanced games including a range of abilities makes BGH a good map choice.
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On December 23 2020 16:37 t1mz_ wrote:Possible. In UMS, just disable "current player commands at most 0 buildings - defeat current player" trigger. And make sure you still have victory trigger if non-allied players command 0 buildings. These triggers are default in SCMDraft as "default melee triggers" when you create a map. With this a defeated teammate can still be in the game, though this is not classic observer mode when the player sees all players (including his opponents). Show nested quote +Using triggers to push some info about the state of the game to replay (I don't know if it's possible) I believe it is possible too. But it is limited to available trigger conditions. The idea is to add neutral player and spam it with text messages on certain conditions. With some patience (and helpful trigger-cloning tools) you can code diverse game situations, then analyze the replay. Show nested quote +BGH is clearly not perfectly balanced, but I would say it's balanced enough to make it enjoyable Once you play this map like 10 times in a row, it does not look much enjoyable. Monotony is boring. Please, consider to add a diverse mappool, at least TRY it. Starcraft community does not deserve to play the same 6p map for 20 years, especially when there are tons of 3x3 maps, e.g. (6)Sixth Sense, (6)Redheart Bridge, (6)Dust Clouds, (6)Tectonic Ridge by Freakling, (6)Ascend, (6)Sanctuaries, (6)Ancient Bridges, (6)Dreamweaver, (6)Crowned Cat. Feature request: add race winrate stats somewhere on bghmmr.eu site. Earlier in this thread you provided the stats with a post, but more fresh data would be nice to have.
Thanks for your answer. It seems that you are right and not kicking the eliminated player is indeed easy.
However, I've looked into SCMDraft and can't see any trigger action that is visible in a replay. Maybe I am missing something but if I can't write to replay it seems that this whole UMS thing doesn't make too much sense.
For race statistics visit bghmmr.eu/stats.php.
On December 28 2020 01:38 IAMTHEONEO wrote:
there is missing a ton of games from last night between midnight and ~1:30 a.m. european time.... had like 4 or 5 wins in a row, only one of them appears in my game history
Yes there was a problem with those replays, but they were processed next day.
On December 28 2020 02:47 Piste wrote:
BGH is propably played becouse it has endless minerals and gas in main, so noobs can achieve late game tech without ever expanding or leaving the main. Love the autobalance feature, but comes with downside of crappy map. Even regular hunters wouldnt be considered.
As for other map in the ladder (also to what t1mz_ wrote): having a pool map would be cool and there is no technical problem with implementing this. I just don't see any maps to add. Maps that t1mz_ listed look great, but I don't see people playing them and hunters is also way less popular as a 3v3 map. I might try other maps, but I doubt people will want to play them as they don't make games with those maps now.
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please ban player "KuKIuxKlan", he leaves in the middle of games total randomly, and missbehaves in lots of other ways. Experienced that several times now playing with or against him. Will definately not play with this guy again, and heard others player say the same already.
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On December 29 2020 04:30 IAMTHEONEO wrote:
please ban player "KuKIuxKlan",...
I think the rest of that post isn't really necessary.
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On December 29 2020 05:00 Simberto wrote:Show nested quote +On December 29 2020 04:30 IAMTHEONEO wrote:
please ban player "KuKIuxKlan",... I think the rest of that post isn't really necessary.
why you think so? I think just asking to ban someone without any explanation isn't a good move either
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On December 28 2020 01:38 IAMTHEONEO wrote:
there is missing a ton of games from last night between midnight and ~1:30 a.m. european time.... had like 4 or 5 wins in a row, only one of them appears in my game history
not quite sure if it's all of the games, but at least two of the missing games from that night appear in my history meanwhile
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Norway28909 Posts
On December 29 2020 05:14 IAMTHEONEO wrote:Show nested quote +On December 29 2020 05:00 Simberto wrote:On December 29 2020 04:30 IAMTHEONEO wrote:
please ban player "KuKIuxKlan",... I think the rest of that post isn't really necessary. why you think so? I think just asking to ban someone without any explanation isn't a good move either
haha more like that name is kind of an indicator that the guy is a jerk who does stuff that might get someone banned.
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you could set up an extra bot for players only ranked C+, it's too annoying sometimes to play with too bad noobs when the rest of the players is quite okay
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On December 29 2020 05:24 Liquid`Drone wrote:Show nested quote +On December 29 2020 05:14 IAMTHEONEO wrote:On December 29 2020 05:00 Simberto wrote:On December 29 2020 04:30 IAMTHEONEO wrote:
please ban player "KuKIuxKlan",... I think the rest of that post isn't really necessary. why you think so? I think just asking to ban someone without any explanation isn't a good move either haha more like that name is kind of an indicator that the guy is a jerk who does stuff that might get someone banned.
yeah, you're right, name kind of says everything already... btw, I'm not quite sure how the name is written, it seems not to be small "L"s he uses there (couldn't find him searching for written like that)
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On December 29 2020 05:34 IAMTHEONEO wrote:
you could set up an extra bot for players only ranked C+, it's too annoying sometimes to play with too bad noobs when the rest of the players is quite okay
This has been suggested so many times throughout the thread but unfortunately there are just not enough players to satisfy that demand, bot rooms hang idle for a long time and those high level players give up and join regular games anyway.
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On December 29 2020 05:35 Jealous wrote:Show nested quote +On December 29 2020 05:34 IAMTHEONEO wrote:
you could set up an extra bot for players only ranked C+, it's too annoying sometimes to play with too bad noobs when the rest of the players is quite okay This has been suggested so many times throughout the thread but unfortunately there are just not enough players to satisfy that demand, bot rooms hang idle for a long time and those high level players give up and join regular games anyway.
okay sorry, didn't read the whole thing, just tl;dr 
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On December 29 2020 05:36 IAMTHEONEO wrote:Show nested quote +On December 29 2020 05:35 Jealous wrote:On December 29 2020 05:34 IAMTHEONEO wrote:
you could set up an extra bot for players only ranked C+, it's too annoying sometimes to play with too bad noobs when the rest of the players is quite okay This has been suggested so many times throughout the thread but unfortunately there are just not enough players to satisfy that demand, bot rooms hang idle for a long time and those high level players give up and join regular games anyway. okay sorry, didn't read the whole thing, just tl;dr
Ya not expecting you to read the whole thread just explaining that it's already been addressed ^^;
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Russian Federation16 Posts
On December 29 2020 02:41 D3AD-R3TARD wrote:
As for other map in the ladder (also to what t1mz_ wrote): having a pool map would be cool and there is no technical problem with implementing this. I just don't see any maps to add. Maps that t1mz_ listed look great, but I don't see people playing them and hunters is also way less popular as a 3v3 map. I might try other maps, but I doubt people will want to play them as they don't make games with those maps now.
The maps I posted are probably the best candidates. There are some others I didn't include due their similarity and obvious bugs. There are also blizzmaps, some of them are playable, but I believe community maps are superior to be considered.
"people don't play these maps" is totally wrong. These maps are definitely being playing less than hunters, but still do. I hosted (6) Anti-Hunters for FFA and 3v3, and sometimes game lobby filled with people very fast. (Though I didn't include this map in the list above cause the map is very similar to (6) Sixth Sense and in my opinion Sixth Sense is better).
BGH has monopoly and it is sad. When someone hosts a team game with a non-hunters map, people rarely join cause the fear of new and cognitive inertia (the similar story with korean players and Fighting Spirit for 1v1 ladder), so the hoster then forced to join hunters-game, thus feeding the monopoly. As a result people don't play other maps cause everyone plays hunters, and cause everyone plays hunters no one tries to play other maps - a vicious circle.
The bghmmr bot actually has a power to break this circle. JUST. TRY. IT. Select two decent 3v3 maps from broodwarmaps.net (or do a pol to see what people like), make a pool with BGH and these two maps, rotate them on one bot and look what happens.
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EPT
