OK I understand that - this is a very good solution. But in theory there is a balancing bot and all matches are balanced? So each team has number of good players and weak players in team equally in EVERY match - of course apart from small insignificant imbalances which always are. So you cannot say that you are playing only against the weak or only against the good players becouse the chances are equal in every match.
Considering that, in theory the points scored by losing should be generaly the same in every match - of course, I mean a case when a player already had a lot of matches on his rating of skills is stabilized.
On the other hand, following this line of reasoning, the system should also give different points values for winning matches, but for winning game there is always added about 20 mmr, whether you played against good or bad players.

badbeatpete

15 Posts

January 11 2021 18:04 GMT

#362

I'm not sure how you came to the conclusion that you always get 20 pts for winning and more points for losing. A quick glance at your recent matches shows this to not be accurate at all. A recent loss of yours was only 10 pts and you've had wins worth 50.

D3AD-R3TARD

Poland63 Posts

January 11 2021 18:14 GMT

#363

On January 11 2021 17:10 stawik wrote:
Hi. I'm no expert but in my opinion there is something wrong with the MMR scoring point algorithm. I think so because recently for every lost match I get about minus 40-60 mmr points, and for every won match I get only +20 mmr point. In this situation, I need to have almost 75% won matches (!!!) only to keep my current position in the ranking. With such high win / loss ratio it is very hard to keep current position in the ranking and almost impossible to move up.
Such system promotes players who plays as little matches as possible and punishes players who plays a lots of matches.
But this is only my opinion.

You can lose more points only in matches in which your team has MMR advantage, and you are defeated. In equal MMR matches you lose an average number of points (around 20 for a player who plays a lot). And you lose fewer points in case of defeat by a stronger team. For instance (as badbeatpete pointed out) in a match from 2021-01-01 18:17 you have lost against a much stronger team and the system only subtracted 10 points from your score.

The chart below explains point updates for the standard Elo rating system used in Chess. For BghMMR the graphs looks slightly different, but the idea is the same.
+ Show Spoiler +

That being said I'm not claiming that this system is perfect. People criticize Elo system for this steep gain/loss curve and although the curve used in bghmmr is less steep, I might change the system to make it more flat in the future. However, (because of a bug that I've made) we had a perfectly flat gain/loss curve for some time, and it clearly didn't work as well as the system that is in use now.

stawik

4 Posts

January 12 2021 06:47 GMT

#364

On January 12 2021 03:04 badbeatpete wrote:
I'm not sure how you came to the conclusion that you always get 20 pts for winning and more points for losing. A quick glance at your recent matches shows this to not be accurate at all. A recent loss of yours was only 10 pts and you've had wins worth 50.

I looked through the accounts of other players who have played a lot of games and they almost always get 21 points for winning.

On January 12 2021 03:14 D3AD-R3TARD wrote:

Show nested quote +

Thanks for the detailed explanation
Best regards

Epocalypse

Canada315 Posts

January 12 2021 20:34 GMT

#365

Dear D3AD-R3TARD,

Three questions:

1) Would you consider running the bots on the West server?

Here's my thinking
— There are more active BGH players on the West server
— There average skill level seems to be slightly higher on West
— At the same time, there are players of all skill levels on West

2) Would it be possible to implement some kind of MMR exclusion algorithm that would kick a player whose MMR is too far from the average MMR of the game?
— For example, when everyone is over 2000MMR except one player is 600MMR.
— Or create a "B+" or "A+" bot?

3) What would it take to get another bot running and how can the community support your initiative?

Thank you in advance, and kudos for for your brilliance!

Liquid`Drone

Norway26363 Posts

January 12 2021 20:58 GMT

#366

I'm guessing if you guys want this on west, then an american should host it. A european bot hosting 3v3 bgh games on west would probably result in tr8 extra high being the norm.

wslkgmlk

Australia35 Posts

January 13 2021 01:56 GMT

#367

I've actually posted here before to look into providing some support for this project. Not sure how this system actually works in the backend, but potentially you could spin up some AWS instances that would take care of hosting games and feeding the results back to the main server.

There are plenty of US/EU regions to choose from, so that should allow for minimal lag when hosting.

RushPush

1 Post

January 13 2021 16:22 GMT

#368

bgh_mmr bot_2 is broken, game is not starting

oEkY

Germany537 Posts

January 15 2021 13:20 GMT

#369

Just finished my longest BGH game ever i guess (as one of your balanced games). 1hour 4min... round about 250 canons, 100 carriers, 50 battlecruiser, 25 nukes and 5 players (cause its been 3v2 for over 50minutes), who couldnt really handle it microwise, haha! thanks for this experience D3AD-R3TARD

IAMTHEONEO

14 Posts

January 15 2021 17:10 GMT

#370

permban Savageboy plz thx, untakeable behaviour towards basically everyone, flaming, leaving, etc pp

2Pacalypse-

Croatia8335 Posts

January 17 2021 17:28 GMT

#371

The game played on 2021-01-16 22:21 needs a correction. Bot disconnected in a middle of a game and somehow concluded results from that point?

Usually I wouldn't really care, but I spent over an hour on that game and I want my points dammit!

Here's a full replay: https://tl.net/staff/2Pacalypse/replays/2331348Big_Game_Hunters.rep

Qvark

Sweden176 Posts

January 17 2021 20:04 GMT

#372

I've played tons of games with Savageboy without problems (as Davvve). Not lately admiteddly, but not sure a permban is warranted if its one bad day with that many games?

D3AD-R3TARD

Poland63 Posts

January 18 2021 13:26 GMT

#373

On January 13 2021 05:34 Epocalypse wrote:
Dear D3AD-R3TARD,

Three questions:

1) Would you consider running the bots on the West server?

Here's my thinking
— There are more active BGH players on the West server
— There average skill level seems to be slightly higher on West
— At the same time, there are players of all skill levels on West

2) Would it be possible to implement some kind of MMR exclusion algorithm that would kick a player whose MMR is too far from the average MMR of the game?
— For example, when everyone is over 2000MMR except one player is 600MMR.
— Or create a "B+" or "A+" bot?

3) What would it take to get another bot running and how can the community support your initiative?

Thank you in advance, and kudos for for your brilliance!

1) Because of lag, running on West server is troublesome. I might consider it in the future but first I want to set up more EU instances.
2) Yes, but I don't know if people will like it. For instance, it would ban the best players all the time... Without them, this ladder will make no sense. In addition, it would make the system less transparent to users and from my experience, the simpler it is the more people join.
3) I just need some more spare time to work on this

On January 15 2021 22:20 oEkY wrote:
Just finished my longest BGH game ever i guess (as one of your balanced games). 1hour 4min... round about 250 canons, 100 carriers, 50 battlecruiser, 25 nukes and 5 players (cause its been 3v2 for over 50minutes), who couldnt really handle it microwise, haha! thanks for this experience D3AD-R3TARD

Glad to hear that!

On January 16 2021 02:10 IAMTHEONEO wrote:
permban Savageboy plz thx, untakeable behaviour towards basically everyone, flaming, leaving, etc pp

To ban someone I must have an instance of team kill / team change or vulgar language towards other players. Please provide the game name and what happened, and I'll review this.

On January 18 2021 02:28 2Pacalypse- wrote:
The game played on 2021-01-16 22:21 needs a correction. Bot disconnected in a middle of a game and somehow concluded results from that point?

Usually I wouldn't really care, but I spent over an hour on that game and I want my points dammit!

Here's a full replay: https://tl.net/staff/2Pacalypse/replays/2331348Big_Game_Hunters.rep

Fixed. Points well deserved.

LuMiX

China5746 Posts

January 18 2021 21:57 GMT

#374

can you make it so the bot doesn't kick the 4th and 8th slot or make it move to OB faster?

D3AD-R3TARD

Poland63 Posts

January 21 2021 11:03 GMT

#375

On January 19 2021 06:57 LuMiX wrote:
can you make it so the bot doesn't kick the 4th and 8th slot or make it move to OB faster?

Bot has to close two slots for the game to be 3x3. If you happen to be in 4th slot just swap teams by clicking Away Team button twice.
As for speed of operation, bots 1-3 share the same GPU and sometimes one bot has to wait for the other to get access to its virtual desktop.

BTW. There are 4 bots running now. I might add 5th if there is need.

niteReloaded

Croatia5239 Posts

January 21 2021 14:48 GMT

#376

What would be needed to get a 2v2 bot up and running?
I'm willing to support the project on a monthly subscription basis, like on Patreon.

Thank you for the amazing work, this is a breath of fresh air and very fun!

IAMTHEONEO

14 Posts

January 21 2021 20:56 GMT

#377

On January 21 2021 20:03 D3AD-R3TARD wrote:

Show nested quote +

would be great if one of them would be running D+ all the time (C+ would be even better btw), instead of the "4 ranked" bot maybe, which doesn't really change anything regarding skill level imo

Qvark

Sweden176 Posts

12 hours ago

#378

would be great if one of them would be running D+ all the time (C+ would be even better btw), instead of the "4 ranked" bot maybe, which doesn't really change anything regarding skill level imo

Agreed!