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BGH Auto Balance -> http://bghmmr.eu/ - Page 19

Forum Index > BW General
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stawik
Profile Joined November 2020
4 Posts
January 11 2021 15:51 GMT
#361
OK I understand that - this is a very good solution. But in theory there is a balancing bot and all matches are balanced? So each team has number of good players and weak players in team equally in EVERY match - of course apart from small insignificant imbalances which always are. So you cannot say that you are playing only against the weak or only against the good players becouse the chances are equal in every match.
Considering that, in theory the points scored by losing should be generaly the same in every match - of course, I mean a case when a player already had a lot of matches on his rating of skills is stabilized.
On the other hand, following this line of reasoning, the system should also give different points values for winning matches, but for winning game there is always added about 20 mmr, whether you played against good or bad players.
badbeatpete
Profile Joined October 2020
25 Posts
January 11 2021 18:04 GMT
#362
I'm not sure how you came to the conclusion that you always get 20 pts for winning and more points for losing. A quick glance at your recent matches shows this to not be accurate at all. A recent loss of yours was only 10 pts and you've had wins worth 50.
D3AD-R3TARD
Profile Joined April 2020
Poland313 Posts
January 11 2021 18:14 GMT
#363
On January 11 2021 17:10 stawik wrote:
Hi. I'm no expert but in my opinion there is something wrong with the MMR scoring point algorithm. I think so because recently for every lost match I get about minus 40-60 mmr points, and for every won match I get only +20 mmr point. In this situation, I need to have almost 75% won matches (!!!) only to keep my current position in the ranking. With such high win / loss ratio it is very hard to keep current position in the ranking and almost impossible to move up.
Such system promotes players who plays as little matches as possible and punishes players who plays a lots of matches.
But this is only my opinion.


You can lose more points only in matches in which your team has MMR advantage, and you are defeated. In equal MMR matches you lose an average number of points (around 20 for a player who plays a lot). And you lose fewer points in case of defeat by a stronger team. For instance (as badbeatpete pointed out) in a match from 2021-01-01 18:17 you have lost against a much stronger team and the system only subtracted 10 points from your score.

The chart below explains point updates for the standard Elo rating system used in Chess. For BghMMR the graphs looks slightly different, but the idea is the same.
+ Show Spoiler +
[image loading]


That being said I'm not claiming that this system is perfect. People criticize Elo system for this steep gain/loss curve and although the curve used in bghmmr is less steep, I might change the system to make it more flat in the future. However, (because of a bug that I've made) we had a perfectly flat gain/loss curve for some time, and it clearly didn't work as well as the system that is in use now.

https://bghmmr.eu
stawik
Profile Joined November 2020
4 Posts
January 12 2021 06:47 GMT
#364
On January 12 2021 03:04 badbeatpete wrote:
I'm not sure how you came to the conclusion that you always get 20 pts for winning and more points for losing. A quick glance at your recent matches shows this to not be accurate at all. A recent loss of yours was only 10 pts and you've had wins worth 50.


I looked through the accounts of other players who have played a lot of games and they almost always get 21 points for winning.

On January 12 2021 03:14 D3AD-R3TARD wrote:
Show nested quote +
On January 11 2021 17:10 stawik wrote:
Hi. I'm no expert but in my opinion there is something wrong with the MMR scoring point algorithm. I think so because recently for every lost match I get about minus 40-60 mmr points, and for every won match I get only +20 mmr point. In this situation, I need to have almost 75% won matches (!!!) only to keep my current position in the ranking. With such high win / loss ratio it is very hard to keep current position in the ranking and almost impossible to move up.
Such system promotes players who plays as little matches as possible and punishes players who plays a lots of matches.
But this is only my opinion.


You can lose more points only in matches in which your team has MMR advantage, and you are defeated. In equal MMR matches you lose an average number of points (around 20 for a player who plays a lot). And you lose fewer points in case of defeat by a stronger team. For instance (as badbeatpete pointed out) in a match from 2021-01-01 18:17 you have lost against a much stronger team and the system only subtracted 10 points from your score.

The chart below explains point updates for the standard Elo rating system used in Chess. For BghMMR the graphs looks slightly different, but the idea is the same.
+ Show Spoiler +
[image loading]


That being said I'm not claiming that this system is perfect. People criticize Elo system for this steep gain/loss curve and although the curve used in bghmmr is less steep, I might change the system to make it more flat in the future. However, (because of a bug that I've made) we had a perfectly flat gain/loss curve for some time, and it clearly didn't work as well as the system that is in use now.



Thanks for the detailed explanation
Best regards
Epocalypse
Profile Joined December 2011
Canada319 Posts
January 12 2021 20:34 GMT
#365
Dear D3AD-R3TARD,

Three questions:

1) Would you consider running the bots on the West server?

Here's my thinking
— There are more active BGH players on the West server
— There average skill level seems to be slightly higher on West
— At the same time, there are players of all skill levels on West

2) Would it be possible to implement some kind of MMR exclusion algorithm that would kick a player whose MMR is too far from the average MMR of the game?
— For example, when everyone is over 2000MMR except one player is 600MMR.
— Or create a "B+" or "A+" bot?

3) What would it take to get another bot running and how can the community support your initiative?


Thank you in advance, and kudos for for your brilliance!
bw4life
Liquid`Drone
Profile Joined September 2002
Norway28785 Posts
January 12 2021 20:58 GMT
#366
I'm guessing if you guys want this on west, then an american should host it. A european bot hosting 3v3 bgh games on west would probably result in tr8 extra high being the norm.
Moderator
wslkgmlk
Profile Joined November 2014
Australia38 Posts
Last Edited: 2021-01-13 01:58:47
January 13 2021 01:56 GMT
#367
I've actually posted here before to look into providing some support for this project. Not sure how this system actually works in the backend, but potentially you could spin up some AWS instances that would take care of hosting games and feeding the results back to the main server.

There are plenty of US/EU regions to choose from, so that should allow for minimal lag when hosting.
RushPush
Profile Joined January 2021
1 Post
January 13 2021 16:22 GMT
#368
bgh_mmr bot_2 is broken, game is not starting
oEkY
Profile Joined August 2016
Germany649 Posts
January 15 2021 13:20 GMT
#369
Just finished my longest BGH game ever i guess (as one of your balanced games). 1hour 4min... round about 250 canons, 100 carriers, 50 battlecruiser, 25 nukes and 5 players (cause its been 3v2 for over 50minutes), who couldnt really handle it microwise, haha! thanks for this experience D3AD-R3TARD
Deleted User 556753
Profile Joined December 2020
126 Posts
Last Edited: 2021-01-15 17:11:29
January 15 2021 17:10 GMT
#370
permban Savageboy plz thx, untakeable behaviour towards basically everyone, flaming, leaving, etc pp
2Pacalypse-
Profile Joined October 2006
Croatia9532 Posts
January 17 2021 17:28 GMT
#371
The game played on 2021-01-16 22:21 needs a correction. Bot disconnected in a middle of a game and somehow concluded results from that point?

Usually I wouldn't really care, but I spent over an hour on that game and I want my points dammit!

Here's a full replay: https://tl.net/staff/2Pacalypse/replays/2331348Big_Game_Hunters.rep
Moderator"We're a community of geniuses because we've found how to extract 95% of the feeling of doing something amazing without actually doing anything." - Chill
Qvark
Profile Joined October 2002
Sweden185 Posts
January 17 2021 20:04 GMT
#372
I've played tons of games with Savageboy without problems (as Davvve). Not lately admiteddly, but not sure a permban is warranted if its one bad day with that many games?
Davvve
D3AD-R3TARD
Profile Joined April 2020
Poland313 Posts
January 18 2021 13:26 GMT
#373
On January 13 2021 05:34 Epocalypse wrote:
Dear D3AD-R3TARD,

Three questions:

1) Would you consider running the bots on the West server?

Here's my thinking
— There are more active BGH players on the West server
— There average skill level seems to be slightly higher on West
— At the same time, there are players of all skill levels on West

2) Would it be possible to implement some kind of MMR exclusion algorithm that would kick a player whose MMR is too far from the average MMR of the game?
— For example, when everyone is over 2000MMR except one player is 600MMR.
— Or create a "B+" or "A+" bot?

3) What would it take to get another bot running and how can the community support your initiative?


Thank you in advance, and kudos for for your brilliance!


1) Because of lag, running on West server is troublesome. I might consider it in the future but first I want to set up more EU instances.
2) Yes, but I don't know if people will like it. For instance, it would ban the best players all the time... Without them, this ladder will make no sense. In addition, it would make the system less transparent to users and from my experience, the simpler it is the more people join.
3) I just need some more spare time to work on this

On January 15 2021 22:20 oEkY wrote:
Just finished my longest BGH game ever i guess (as one of your balanced games). 1hour 4min... round about 250 canons, 100 carriers, 50 battlecruiser, 25 nukes and 5 players (cause its been 3v2 for over 50minutes), who couldnt really handle it microwise, haha! thanks for this experience D3AD-R3TARD


Glad to hear that!

On January 16 2021 02:10 IAMTHEONEO wrote:
permban Savageboy plz thx, untakeable behaviour towards basically everyone, flaming, leaving, etc pp


To ban someone I must have an instance of team kill / team change or vulgar language towards other players. Please provide the game name and what happened, and I'll review this.

On January 18 2021 02:28 2Pacalypse- wrote:
The game played on 2021-01-16 22:21 needs a correction. Bot disconnected in a middle of a game and somehow concluded results from that point?

Usually I wouldn't really care, but I spent over an hour on that game and I want my points dammit!

Here's a full replay: https://tl.net/staff/2Pacalypse/replays/2331348Big_Game_Hunters.rep


Fixed. Points well deserved.

https://bghmmr.eu
LuMiX
Profile Blog Joined October 2006
China5757 Posts
January 18 2021 21:57 GMT
#374
can you make it so the bot doesn't kick the 4th and 8th slot or make it move to OB faster?
D3AD-R3TARD
Profile Joined April 2020
Poland313 Posts
January 21 2021 11:03 GMT
#375
On January 19 2021 06:57 LuMiX wrote:
can you make it so the bot doesn't kick the 4th and 8th slot or make it move to OB faster?


Bot has to close two slots for the game to be 3x3. If you happen to be in 4th slot just swap teams by clicking Away Team button twice.
As for speed of operation, bots 1-3 share the same GPU and sometimes one bot has to wait for the other to get access to its virtual desktop.

BTW. There are 4 bots running now. I might add 5th if there is need.
https://bghmmr.eu
niteReloaded
Profile Blog Joined February 2007
Croatia5282 Posts
January 21 2021 14:48 GMT
#376
What would be needed to get a 2v2 bot up and running?
I'm willing to support the project on a monthly subscription basis, like on Patreon.

Thank you for the amazing work, this is a breath of fresh air and very fun!
Deleted User 556753
Profile Joined December 2020
126 Posts
Last Edited: 2021-01-22 14:59:03
January 21 2021 20:56 GMT
#377
On January 21 2021 20:03 D3AD-R3TARD wrote:
Show nested quote +
On January 19 2021 06:57 LuMiX wrote:
can you make it so the bot doesn't kick the 4th and 8th slot or make it move to OB faster?


Bot has to close two slots for the game to be 3x3. If you happen to be in 4th slot just swap teams by clicking Away Team button twice.
As for speed of operation, bots 1-3 share the same GPU and sometimes one bot has to wait for the other to get access to its virtual desktop.

BTW. There are 4 bots running now. I might add 5th if there is need.


would be great if one of them would be running D+ all the time (C+ would be even better btw), instead of the "4 ranked" bot maybe, which doesn't really change anything regarding skill level imo
Qvark
Profile Joined October 2002
Sweden185 Posts
January 23 2021 19:26 GMT
#378


would be great if one of them would be running D+ all the time (C+ would be even better btw), instead of the "4 ranked" bot maybe, which doesn't really change anything regarding skill level imo


Agreed!
Davvve
iRk-ErlinGho
Profile Joined March 2019
Norway6 Posts
Last Edited: 2021-01-24 21:48:09
January 24 2021 21:27 GMT
#379
Nr ONE in EUROPE :D
2Pacalypse-
Profile Joined October 2006
Croatia9532 Posts
January 24 2021 22:11 GMT
#380
On January 22 2021 05:56 IAMTHEONEO wrote:
Show nested quote +
On January 21 2021 20:03 D3AD-R3TARD wrote:
On January 19 2021 06:57 LuMiX wrote:
can you make it so the bot doesn't kick the 4th and 8th slot or make it move to OB faster?


Bot has to close two slots for the game to be 3x3. If you happen to be in 4th slot just swap teams by clicking Away Team button twice.
As for speed of operation, bots 1-3 share the same GPU and sometimes one bot has to wait for the other to get access to its virtual desktop.

BTW. There are 4 bots running now. I might add 5th if there is need.


would be great if one of them would be running D+ all the time (C+ would be even better btw), instead of the "4 ranked" bot maybe, which doesn't really change anything regarding skill level imo

I'd also like to second this.
Moderator"We're a community of geniuses because we've found how to extract 95% of the feeling of doing something amazing without actually doing anything." - Chill
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